German Torpedo Color?

[Natter]

There were a discussion regarding the G7s(TXI) "Zaunkönig II" torpedoes a while back. All sources mentioning this torpedo says there were only 38 produced, and the only operational use known was the 5 torpedoes loaded on U-534 before it's last sortie.

I recently got hold of some interesting documents covering the status of german underwater ordnance-production. In these, the number of TXI torpedoes in stock by 1944-12-01 is listed as 82. One should assume they made even more during the remaining 6 months of the war...

[NZSnowman]

There were a discussion regarding the G7s(TXI) "Zaunkönig II" torpedoes a while back. All sources mentioning this torpedo says there were only 38 produced, and the only operational use known was the 5 torpedoes loaded on U-534 before it's last sortie.

I recently got hold of some interesting documents covering the status of german underwater ordnance-production. In these, the number of TXI torpedoes in stock by 1944-12-01 is listed as 82. One should assume they made even more during the remaining 6 months of the war...

Thanks for the information Let hope that a few more G7s(TXI) "Zaunkönig II" will show up one day.

[SG]

Natter,  Gentlemen, am sure you will enjoy this:
https://willemsubmerged.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/the-forgotten-torpedo-of-curacao-never-trust-a-caption-blindly/
Cheers
SG

[Natter]

Natter,  Gentlemen, am sure you will enjoy this:
https://willemsubmerged.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/the-forgotten-torpedo-of-curacao-never-trust-a-caption-blindly/

Sure do - thanks!

[NZSnowman]

Natter, do you have any plans of the Torpedo loading frames? I would like to make a 3-D model of the frames.

[Natter]

Natter, do you have any plans of the Torpedo loading frames? I would like to make a 3-D model of the frames.

I'm not sure what you mean... If it's the rig for loading torpedoes on the submarine, then no, I'm sorry.

[NZSnowman]

Yes I was talking about the the rig for loading torpedoes. I will see what I can do with the few war-time photos I had. Thanks, again.

[Islandern]

I am building a G7e torpedo now. Is this thread has been up for some years and many links to pictures are broken and also files that has been shared (I guess with good info on colours on the different mods/models) do I wonder if someone could help me with the colours of a standard G7e/T2 or T3 torpedo. The colours I was thinking of was

• War head: Light grey / Dark grey (Depending on T2 / T3
• Igniter: Brass
• Body: Silver
• Aft part: Light grey
• Propellers: Silver

If it can help, it is for a late war (1945) Seehund sub.

Thank you, and have a good weekend.

[Natter]

I am building a G7e torpedo now. Is this thread has been up for some years and many links to pictures are broken and also files that has been shared (I guess with good info on colours on the different mods/models) do I wonder if someone could help me with the colours of a standard G7e/T2 or T3 torpedo.

In principle, there's no visual difference between a TII and TII besides the text "TII" or "TIII" painted inside a ring on the forward part of the batterychamber (this was not always applied though). However, if the TIII were fitted with Fat or Lut mechanisms, there would be several issues to distinguish it from a TII.

•    
• War head: Light grey / Dark grey (Depending on T2 / T3 - It would seem that a darker grey is most accurate either way.   
• Igniter: Brass - The pistol was made of brass initially, but they switched to steel during the war (painted grey). For a TIII the latter would be more correct
• Body: Silver - Unpainted steel
• Aft part: Light grey - Unpainted steel 
• Propellers: Silver - Unpainted steel

The steel hull would have been covered in a protective grease giving it a brownish/golden tint.

If it can help, it is for a late war (1945) Seehund sub.

That's another story... It's clear that the Kleinkampfverbände painted their torpedoes in order to obtain proper camouflage, both for road-travel and in water - even with a camouflage pattern (as can be seen in certain photos).
I have no idea if this was governed by regulations, or left up to the kommands theirself to decide in terms of colours and pattern. My best guess would be shades of dark and lighter blue and/or grey for the hull and propellers.

[Natter]

Here is a cut showing details of a torpedo mounted on a Molch. It's the first I'v seen showing clearly that torpedoes used by the vessels of the Kleinkampfverbände was painted (obviously, also in camouflage patterns):

And here is one with even better examples - note also the nice netcutter on the head (source: IWM):

[Islandern]

Here is two G7es T11, of those three found inside U 534 torpedo tubes in excellent condition when she was raised. Only 38 G7es T11 was ever made.


Is it unpainted/greased steel for body and copper(?) for the war head.


Some more can be seen in this documentary, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7IqdInqJMs&t=2380s about 39 minutes in.

[GlennCauley]

Has anyone considered making a small document (with line drawings, colours, etc.) to show the details, dimensions, colours etc. of the torpedoes?
Please?

It's great to have a forum discussion, but trying to follow it for pages to glean information is difficult.

[Islandern]

Has anyone considered making a small document (with line drawings, colours, etc.) to show the details, dimensions, colours etc. of the torpedoes?
Please?

It's great to have a forum discussion, but trying to follow it for pages to glean information is difficult.

I would love to see that!


Sadly I can not do it, way to little knowledge about it, besides that I am a true beginner in building models.


This thread contains great info, but by now much of the shared pictures is broken. So as you say, a written summary with colours, markings and materials would be awesome!

[GlennCauley]

Natter... would this be something that you might want to tackle?
You are the resident expert on German torpedoes. 

[NZSnowman]

Has anyone considered making a small document (with line drawings, colours, etc.) to show the details, dimensions, colours etc. of the torpedoes?
Please?

It's great to have a forum discussion, but trying to follow it for pages to glean information is difficult.

Glenn, I have line colour drawings of almost all the U-boat torpedoes used. I could repost and make a small document, but we would need Natter to check the drawings as there a many different torpedoes combo.

[NZSnowman]

Fig. 1. Pi1, Arming Range 150 m.


Fig. 2. Pi1, Arming Range 300 m.


Fig. 3. Pi2, Arming Range 300 m.


Fig. 4. Pi3, Arming Range 300 m.

[Natter]

Here is two G7es T11, of those three found inside U 534 torpedo tubes in excellent condition when she was raised.

Check previous posts in this topic regarding the correct number of torpedoes. Note that the torpedo being pressurewashed is an "ordinary" G7a(TI).

Only 38 G7es T11 was ever made.

Well, that is what the books say, but I recently found an original german list of torpedo-inventory from august (if I remember correctly) 1944, stating 88 G7e(TXI) available at that time. I'm pretty sure they made even more from then to april/may 1945.

Is it unpainted/greased steel for body and copper(?) for the war head.

Yes, but the Kb head for the G7a(TI) is made of bronze though, and the Ke or Kf heads for the G7e(TXI) were made of steel, and painted dark grey.

[Natter]

Has anyone considered making a small document (with line drawings, colours, etc.) to show the details, dimensions, colours etc. of the torpedoes?
Please?

It's a nice idea, but probably impossible to fulfill if you want to cover all types of torpedoes and their variants. So much original documents/material is simply not available (a lot was lost during the last year of the war, and much have been destroyed afterwards).

I have the german lists of torpedoes with technical specs for all the operationally G7a and G7e variants (minor differences externally). The tricky part is the types that were in different stages of development...

Natter... would this be something that you might want to tackle?
You are the resident expert on German torpedoes. 

Expert is a strong word, although I probably have more than average knowledge on the topic... ;-)
Sadly, I don't have the skills in graphic design to create anything like the stuff made by for instance NZSnowman.

I'm struggling with some health issues as well, so I'm not able to spend much time on the computer (among my numerous projects on hold, is an indepth article (70 pages so far) on the G7ef(TX) torpedo and the german "Spinnebatteries" :-( ).

I'd be happy to assist as much as possible with comments on drawings etc though :-)

[GlennCauley]

I think most of we modellers would be very happy to see a booklet showing the following info:

* Most common variants of torpedoes that were in operational subs & midget subs
* Line drawings of the torpedoes, with dimensions
* Line drawings of torpedo warheads & triggers (?), tail sections
* Common colours of torpedo parts, operational & dummy
* List of current manufacturer offerings, which are best, which are worst... in say 1/72 and 1/35 scales

The goal would be to give scale modellers a comprehensive guide to work from, so we can create better (and more accurate) torpedoes.
It wouldn't be to make a complete historical document.

[Natter]

As long as you're limiting the list to torpedoes that saw operational use during the war, this should probably be feasable (with certain "holes", due to missing documents).

* Most common variants of torpedoes that were in operational subs & midget subs

No problem

* Line drawings of the torpedoes, with dimensions

I can't do it, but it should be doable (NZsnowman already has much of this at hand already)

* Line drawings of torpedo warheads & triggers (?), tail sections

Ditto

* Common colours of torpedo parts, operational & dummy

More challenging (hence this topic)...

* List of current manufacturer offerings, which are best, which are worst... in say 1/72 and 1/35 scales

If anyone can assenle a list of manufacturers and dig up some photos of the models/parts, it should be easy to give comments towards the quality.

[NZSnowman]

Fig. 5. Warhead Bronze.


Fig. 6. Warhead Steel.

 

[NZSnowman]

 I am happy to post the drawings I have. To keep it easy and simple at the beginning how about we keep the torpedoes to three simple parts (tail, body, Warhead and pistol) and list the torpedoes combos. For examples:

Early War Torpedoes
G7a (TI)
Fig. # / Fig. # / Figs. 6 & 7 / Figs. 1, 2 & 3
 
Once we happy with the drawings and torpedoes combos, I can join the drawings to make a torpedo.

[NZSnowman]

I think most of we modellers would be very happy to see a booklet showing the following info:
* Most common variants of torpedoes that were in operational subs & midget subs

I made this from a list I already had "in the works":

Natter, this is fantastic list. I will try to match my drawings with your list.

[NZSnowman]

Fig. 7. G7a TI.


Fig. 8. G7a TI.



Fig. 9. G7a TI Fat I.


Fig. 10. G7a TI Lut I.


Fig. 11. G7a TI Lut II.


Fig. 12. G7a TI Lut III.

[NZSnowman]

Natter,

Q1. Could you get the Fat I, Lut I, Lut II & Lut III with a bronze propellers (fig. 7)?

Q2. Did the Fat I, Lut I & Lut III have any markings on the outside?

Thanks, Simon.

[GlennCauley]

I have a bunch of different 1/35 subs & midget subs that I can post pics & dimensions.

[NZSnowman]

Natter,

Q3. Does the G7a TI Fat I (Fig. 9) have a adjustment hatch on top of the tail section like the Lut I, Lut II & Lut III?

Thanks, Simon.

[Islandern]

When I woke up this morning, wow!


That list is great Natter!


I now understand as I am building the Seehund that I most likely need to make a G7e TIIIc, with kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead and TZ2+Pi2f pistol.


Can someone help me with the colours of the kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead for midget subs, dark grey?


The same with the colours for the TZ2 / Pi2f pistol?


The rest of the torpedo I asume is unpainted steel, including the 2 blade counterrotating prop?


(Truly want to finnish a build that is punt on halt untill I have this input.


NZSnowman, a graphic guide as you have started with, were it is easy to see the different types etc is very welcome!

[GlennCauley]

Can someone help me with the colours of the kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead for midget subs, dark grey?
The same with the colours for the TZ2 / Pi2f pistol?
The rest of the torpedo I asume is unpainted steel, including the 2 blade counterrotating prop?

LOL... patience. 
This is exactly the sort of colour information that will likely be in a short guide

[Natter]

I made this from a list I already had "in the works":

Just for the record: There's a few errors and some information missing from this list (I posted it without any proper "proof-reading" yesterday...). I will make another improved version as soon as I get a chance, also adding some more torpedoes that I see is missing...

[Natter]

Q1. Could you get the Fat I, Lut I, Lut II & Lut III with a bronze propellers (fig. 7)?

There's no correlation between the material used for the propellers and version/features of the torpedo. The G7a(TI) torpedo was initially eqippped with 4-blade propellers, later replaced by 6-blade. All made in brass. As brass became less available during the war, they switched to making propellers of steel, but this was merely a matter of logistics.
I don't have any information stating exactly when the 6-blade propeller was introduced, nor when they started making them in steel. I'm sure they used brass-propellers in stock until they ran out, wether it was for making a straight-runner or a torpedo with program steering.

Q2. Did the Fat I, Lut I & Lut III have any markings on the outside?

I'm not sure, but it's possible. So far, I have only found original documents giving instructions for the "Lut II" markings.
 
First: There's no "Lut III". The different programsteering versions were Fat I, Fat II, Fat III (later renamed to Lut I) and Lut II.  I have put up a general description of those systems here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_torpedoes_of_Germany

[Natter]

Q3. Does the G7a TI Fat I (Fig. 9) have a adjustment hatch on top of the tail section like the Lut I, Lut II & Lut III?

It's not a hatch, but yes: There's access for making adjustments to the Fat-settings (not similar to the Lut-adjustments though). I'll post some photos if I can find them...

[Natter]

I now understand as I am building the Seehund that I most likely need to make a G7e TIIIc, with kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead and TZ2+Pi2f pistol.

Yes, the G7e(TIIIc) would be the proper torpedo. I'm not sure when the TIIIe were introduced, but probably very late and thus saw limited use.

The exterior of the warheads are basically identical. The difference is internal, with different shape/size of pistolpockets, material used etc.
 * Ka (gerät nr. 501 B 1203): Made from bronze without internal ribs. Short pocket with space for pistol-battery.
 * Ka (gerät nr. 501 B 1203 U 35): Made from bronze with internal ribs. Short pocket with space for pistol-battery.
 * Ka (gerät nr. 501 B 1203 U 17): Made from steel without internal ribs. Short pocket with space for pistol-battery.
 * Ka1 (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U4): Made from steel with internal ribs. Short pocket without space for pistol-battery
 * Ka2 (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U4): Made from steel with internal ribs. Medium pocket.
 * Kb (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U20): Made from bronze with internal ribs. Long pocket and cable guide to the backplate.
 * Kb1 (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U40): Made from steel with internal ribs. Long pocket and cable guide to the backplate.

The size and shape of the pocket decided whitch pistol could be used. Pistols with magnetic ignitors had to be powered by a battery (either a dedicated small battery in the pistol, or from the torpedo's main battery by means of a cable going through the head back to the batterychamber of the G7e torpedo).

Note that Kb2 is an error: There were no such variant... (one of several issues I need to correct in the list :-/ ).

Can someone help me with the colours of the kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead for midget subs, dark grey?

I suggest you read the complete topic, as this has been discussed before. As mentioned: It's impossible to give an exact answer. All warheads were initially painted light or dark grey though (heads of bronze might not have been painted though, due to less need for protection against corrosion).

The same with the colours for the TZ2 / Pi2f pistol?

Ditto, although the few pictures of Pi2f I have seen suggest a very light colour (light grey, or perhaps white...). Note that TZ2 were a pistol with firingarms, ("whiskers") and Pi2f had none, as it was only used with netcutters.

The rest of the torpedo I asume is unpainted steel, including the 2 blade counterrotating prop?

Yes, for use on ordinary submarines (although it would have been covered in grease, giving it a brownish/golden translucent colour). Torpedoes used on micget submarines were usually painted in various colours, injcluding camouflagepattern (ref previous posts and photos in this topic).

[Natter]

Q3. Does the G7a TI Fat I (Fig. 9) have a adjustment hatch on top of the tail section like the Lut I, Lut II & Lut III?

It's not a hatch, but yes: There's access for making adjustments to the Fat-settings (not similar to the Lut-adjustments though). I'll post some photos if I can find them...

Here you are:

[Natter]

I can't find a photo of the Lut-panel for comparision, but you can see the difference in these drawings of the adjustment-mechanism (4 spindles, no indicator):

[Natter]

NB: It should also be appearant that the Lut- and Fat-mechanism are not located in the same place.

[NZSnowman]

NB: It should also be appearant that the Lut- and Fat-mechanism are not located in the same place.

Thanks for the information and pictures.

Do the postions look ok (Yellow = Lut and Red = Fat)?

[Islandern]

I now understand as I am building the Seehund that I most likely need to make a G7e TIIIc, with kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead and TZ2+Pi2f pistol.

Yes, the G7e(TIIIc) would be the proper torpedo. I'm not sure when the TIIIe were introduced, but probably very late and thus saw limited use.

The exterior of the warheads are basically identical. The difference is internal, with different shape/size of pistolpockets, material used etc.
 * Ka (gerät nr. 501 B 1203): Made from bronze without internal ribs. Short pocket with space for pistol-battery.
 * Ka (gerät nr. 501 B 1203 U 35): Made from bronze with internal ribs. Short pocket with space for pistol-battery.
 * Ka (gerät nr. 501 B 1203 U 17): Made from steel without internal ribs. Short pocket with space for pistol-battery.
 * Ka1 (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U4): Made from steel with internal ribs. Short pocket without space for pistol-battery
 * Ka2 (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U4): Made from steel with internal ribs. Medium pocket.
 * Kb (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U20): Made from bronze with internal ribs. Long pocket and cable guide to the backplate.
 * Kb1 (gerät nr. 501 B 2003 U40): Made from steel with internal ribs. Long pocket and cable guide to the backplate.

The size and shape of the pocket decided whitch pistol could be used. Pistols with magnetic ignitors had to be powered by a battery (either a dedicated small battery in the pistol, or from the torpedo's main battery by means of a cable going through the head back to the batterychamber of the G7e torpedo).

Note that Kb2 is an error: There were no such variant... (one of several issues I need to correct in the list :-/ ).

Can someone help me with the colours of the kb, kb1 or kb2 warhead for midget subs, dark grey?

I suggest you read the complete topic, as this has been discussed before. As mentioned: It's impossible to give an exact answer. All warheads were initially painted light or dark grey though (heads of bronze might not have been painted though, due to less need for protection against corrosion).

The same with the colours for the TZ2 / Pi2f pistol?

Ditto, although the few pictures of Pi2f I have seen suggest a very light colour (light grey, or perhaps white...). Note that TZ2 were a pistol with firingarms, ("whiskers") and Pi2f had none, as it was only used with netcutters.

The rest of the torpedo I asume is unpainted steel, including the 2 blade counterrotating prop?

Yes, for use on ordinary submarines (although it would have been covered in grease, giving it a brownish/golden translucent colour). Torpedoes used on micget submarines were usually painted in various colours, injcluding camouflagepattern (ref previous posts and photos in this topic).

Thank you Natter!


This with midget subs seems very varying, yes. Some with camouflage and many without, and different ignition mechanisms as far as I have seen on pictures, the same with the net cutters. Some with and some without. Though I think I have not seen one more high-res or better detailed picture of the net cutter yet. (Might be to there cameras back then ofc )


Looking foreward to the torpedo guide you are working on.


This thread contains very good info, but it is hard to get a good grip around it now.


Regards,


Anders

[GlennCauley]

I still have to get pics & info to you, Natter... I haven't forgotten.     
The torps on the new HB 1/35 Molch kit will make you cringe...

[NZSnowman]

Looking foreward to the torpedo guide you are working on.

I have done about 40 drawings of the torpedoes and 24 pages so far. I am waiting for Natter to check a few things.

Simon

[Natter]

Do the postions look ok (Yellow = Lut and Red = Fat)?

Hmm... no, but I need to check it properly. I have access to fat-torpedoes, so I can make an exact measurement, and I can probably make an accurate location of the Lut-panel by measurung my Lut-gyroscope (I'm not sure when I get an opportunity, but I'll try to remember it the next time I get out to the torpedobattery).

[Natter]

Here is an updated list of german torpedoes with various operational status in WWII. It's still not 100%, but improved a lot since my first attempt...

[Natter]

Do the postions look ok (Yellow = Lut and Red = Fat)?

Hmm... no, but I need to check it properly. I have access to fat-torpedoes, so I can make an exact measurement, and I can probably make an accurate location of the Lut-panel by measurung my Lut-gyroscope (I'm not sure when I get an opportunity, but I'll try to remember it the next time I get out to the torpedobattery).

Here are some measurments regarding the position of the FAT/LUT-panels. Unfortunately, I have only had access to a FAT-torpedo and a LUT I gyroscope at the time being, and I haven't been able to dig up good photos of the LUT-panel on a torpedo...
I hope you find these helpful though, and perhaps you can extrapolate other measurements if needed.

[NZSnowman]

Thanks 

[Islandern]

Looking foreward to the torpedo guide you are working on.

I have done about 40 drawings of the torpedoes and 24 pages so far. I am waiting for Natter to check a few things.

Simon

How is it going with the guide?


I have once more been reading through his thread and found it as a great source of information, however it would be great with the pictured guide for us!


Best Regards,


Anders

[NZSnowman]

I just go back from holiday, but I will try to post something this week. 

[Islandern]

NZSnowman, that sounds great. Keep up the good work.

[NZSnowman]

Natter, do you know the width of the fin glide on the top of the torpedo?
I have seen to have 2 valves, 10 mm and 23 mm, 23 mm seem too large.

[Natter]

Natter, do you know the width of the fin glide on the top of the torpedo?
I have seen to have 2 valves, 10 mm and 23 mm, 23 mm seem too large.

Sorry, but I don't understand... "fin glide"?

[NZSnowman]

Fig. 1 . Fin glide on the top of the torpedo (red arrow).


Fig. 2 . Glide reset.

Q1. The width of the glide in the top of tube (its look about 10 -15 mm)?

Q2. Does this glide fixed within the top torpedo tube reset?

Thanks, Simon.

 

[Natter]

You are reffering to the "fuhrungswarze" (guidingknob). Note that the G7a(TI) in your foto from the "Wilhelm Bauer" museum submarine, has it's knob mounted backwards.

Q1. The width of the glide in the top of tube (its look about 10 -15 mm)?

I have the measurements, but I can't find them now. I'm going to Herdla on friday, so in worst case, I'll make new measurements then.

Q2. Does this glide fixed within the top torpedo tube reset?

Depening on which type of tube the torpedo was to be used, there would be three different "configurations" for these guiding-/holding-/stop-knobs:

 * "Smooth" submarine-tube: No knobs mounted
 * Standard submarine-tube: Both the "Haltebolzenwiderlager" (stoppingknob) and the "fuhringswarze" (guidingknob) mounted.
 * Surface-tube: Both the "Hangewarze" (hanging-/holdingknob) and the "fuhringswarze" (guidingknob) mounted.

The "Hangewarze" was mounted on the airtank. It's T-shape kept the torpedo in position and ensured that it woudln't "tip down" to early leaving the tube during the launch, risking it getting "stucked".
The "fuhringswarze" was mounted on the top of the vertical fin, ensuring the torpedo didn't rotate in the tube during launch.
The "Haltebolzenwiderlager" was mounted above the enginecompartment, ensuring the torpedo wasn't pushed to far into the tube during loading.

I have attached a photo showing the details of the three different knobs, as well as two photos showing the corresponding T-shaped rail in the surface tubes.

[Natter]

A part of Tafel 1 from the Marine-Dienstvorschrift Nr. 358A Torpedo G7a Zeichnungen (1941), showing the placements (measurements in mm):

[NZSnowman]

You are reffering to the "fuhrungswarze" (guidingknob). Note that the G7a(TI) in your foto from the "Wilhelm Bauer" museum submarine, has it's knob mounted backwards.

Q1. The width of the glide in the top of tube (its look about 10 -15 mm)?

I have the measurements, but I can't find them now. I'm going to Herdla on friday, so in worst case, I'll make new measurements then.

Q2. Does this glide fixed within the top torpedo tube reset?

Depening on which type of tube the torpedo was to be used, there would be three different "configurations" for these guiding-/holding-/stop-knobs:

 * "Smooth" submarine-tube: None knobs mounted
 * Standard submarine-tube: Only the "Haltebolzenwiderlager" (stoppingknob) mounted.
 * Surface-tube: Both the "H

Thanks for the information! No rush on the measurements. I am sure I could used 12.5 mm and no one would know or care :-D

I was in Chicago last year and got to see the G7es/T5.

I also found a torpedo in the German Museum of Technology (Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin) it was hidden in a closed area, but I was able to take a few average photo's of it. Do you know of this torpedo?

 

[Natter]

Thanks for the information! No rush on the measurements. I am sure I could used 12.5 mm and no one would know or care :-D

Sorry, but my scheduled trip to Herdla yesterday was cancelled. I hope to get the opportunity next week.
I usually have a couple of these knobs laying around as paperweights here in my office, but for some reason I must have put them away in a safe place that I can't recall now... 

If I was to guesstimate, I'd say closer to 15 rather than 12 mm...

I was in Chicago last year and got to see the G7es/T5.
I also found a torpedo in the German Museum of Technology (Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin) it was hidden in a closed area, but I was able to take a few average photo's of it. Do you know of this torpedo?

In my notes I have 4 torpedoes/major torpedoparts in that museum, but not what type...I'd love to see some photos both of this and the one in Chicago (you can't get too much torpedo-photos  ).

[NZSnowman]

German Museum of Technology (Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin)
If you click on them you should see the full view. Natter, you should be able to download them if you want them for your collection.

[NZSnowman]

Natter, I just uploaded 50 photo's from Chicago of the G7es/T5. You welcome to download as many of them you want. I will keep them up on the link for few months for anyone to download them.
If you have any problem with the link or downloading let me know and will try to help out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/57740585@N04/

[Natter]

If you click on them you should see the full view. Natter, you should be able to download them if you want them for your collection.

Interesting... Obviously a G7e - most likely a TIII.
 * Did you happen to see if it was painted, or is it just corrosion?
 * Did it have a head mounted?
 * Did you happen to see other torpedoes/-parts in this museum?

[Natter]

Natter, I just uploaded 50 photo's from Chicago of the G7es/T5. You welcome to download as many of them you want. I will keep them up on the link for few months for anyone to download them.

Very nice photos, I was able to download all. They show some details better than photos I have already (it seems like a mix of photos of the TV and the TIII though?).

[NZSnowman]

If you click on them you should see the full view. Natter, you should be able to download them if you want them for your collection.

Interesting... Obviously a G7e - most likely a TIII.
 * Did you happen to see if it was painted, or is it just corrosion?
 * Did it have a head mounted?
 * Did you happen to see other torpedoes/-parts in this museum?

* I believe it was very corrosion. I did not get a real long look at it because it was in a closed area and in very low light.
* Yes, I believe it had a practice head.
* I think there were other torpedoes/-parts in the same area. 3 or 4 in total I believe. Again I did not get a real look at them, if I remember correctly it was near dark, hidden deep under a staircase.



 

[NZSnowman]

Natter, I just uploaded 50 photo's from Chicago of the G7es/T5. You welcome to download as many of them you want. I will keep them up on the link for few months for anyone to download them.

Very nice photos, I was able to download all. They show some details better than photos I have already (it seems like a mix of photos of the TV and the TIII though?).

I don't want any overview of the torpedo there are heaps of them on the internet.

I found the serial numbers and metal marking fascinating. Do you know anything about the metal marking? It look like a star and wiggly line?

The other thing I found fascinating was the number of times they used rivets to fixed internal parts to the torpedo body. Because of the raw metal you can easy see the rivets and other metals used.

I also found some red paint on the fins, which is cool.

I am 99% sure they were all of the TV, as I am planning to continue adding detail to my 3D model of the TV. 

 
 

[Natter]

* I believe it was very corrosion. I did not get a real long look at it because it was in a closed area and in very low light.

Ok. I was a bit curious in regards to the possibility of it being a camo-painted TIIIb or c from a K-verband (not very likely of course ;-) ).

* Yes, I believe it had a practice head.

Thanks for the photo. That's an odd one that: Obviously a type 1215 exersice head, but it has some non-original features suggesting post-war modification (by Bundesmarine I guess).

* I think there were other torpedoes/-parts in the same area. 3 or 4 in total I believe. Again I did not get a real look at them, if I remember correctly it was near dark, hidden deep under a staircase.

Ok, thanks again. I hope I can get the opportunity to get there myself one day :-)  (PS: If you ever plan a new trip to Europe, consider cheking out Norway as well - we have probably the largest collection of german torpeoes at Herdla outside Bergen (no TV's though...), and I'd be happy to give a guided tour).

[Natter]

I found the serial numbers and metal marking fascinating. Do you know anything about the metal marking? It look like a star and wiggly line?

No, but I assume it's a quality-stamp (not a manufacturer-code). The number is the serial (stamped on the batterychamber, the aftsection and the tailpiece).

The other thing I found fascinating was the number of times they used rivets to fixed internal parts to the torpedo body. Because of the raw metal you can easy see the rivets and other metals used.

Yes. They did change this a bit (different kinds of rivets for the early torpedoes made before the war).

I also found some red paint on the fins, which is cool.

Yes. Most likely not original, as the torpedoes have been sanded down/blasted during the restorations (two times since the war if I remember correctly). During the last restoration they made some effort to get the colors correct, but as evident by the colour used on the Kf head for the TV they didn't quite get it right (seems too dark, although I can only asess the photos available online, as I haven't been there muself).
I don't remember if I have the nomenclature for TV-markings, but LUT-torpedoes should have a green marking like that on the rudder.

I am 99% sure they were all of the TV, as I am planning to continue adding detail to my 3D model of the TV.

Nope. Most of your photos are of the TV (serial number 118793), but there are also a couple of shots from from the second display with the TIII with exersicehead and partly cut-opened hull.

[NZSnowman]

* Yes, I believe it had a practice head.

Thanks for the photo. That's an odd one that: Obviously a type 1215 exersice head, but it has some non-original features suggesting post-war modification (by Bundesmarine I guess).

I found a better photo of the name plate, not sure if it useful.

[NZSnowman]

* I think there were other torpedoes/-parts in the same area. 3 or 4 in total I believe. Again I did not get a real look at them, if I remember correctly it was near dark, hidden deep under a staircase.

Ok, thanks again. I hope I can get the opportunity to get there myself one day :-)  (PS: If you ever plan a new trip to Europe, consider cheking out Norway as well - we have probably the largest collection of german torpeoes at Herdla outside Bergen (no TV's though...), and I'd be happy to give a guided tour).

I am going to a conference in Canada in October and I was thinking about going back to Germany to check out the U-boats again, but it's depends on how much time I can get off work.

[NZSnowman]

I am 99% sure they were all of the TV, as I am planning to continue adding detail to my 3D model of the TV.

Nope. Most of your photos are of the TV (serial number 118793), but there are also a couple of shots from from the second display with the TIII with exersicehead and partly cut-opened hull.

You are right! I must have let a few slip in 

[Natter]

I found a better photo of the name plate, not sure if it useful.

Sure is, thanks :-)
Obviously, it's an original plate and at first glance it seems the airtanks wasn't tested since 1943, which could mean it was not used postwar.

Certainly two details differ it from an "ordinary" type 1215, so I'm still a butt puzzled: Might be a variant (there's basically no information/details available on the german exersiceheads), or it was in fact in use post war. Despite the original shield, I'm leaning towards the latter:
 * The colour is certaily post war (and complies to Bundesmarine standard).
 * The details on the tracking-lamp cover and the nose ring indicates postwar modifications.
 * Testing of the airtanks might have been tracked by use of a register, in stead of stamping it into the shield (we did that in RNoN-service)
 * The stock of exerciseheads were low after the war, and always in high demand (in Norway several new heads had to be manufactured after the war, and that was also the case in West germany). Unless the head was faulty, I'm sure it would have been used post war.

[Natter]

You are right! I must have let a few slip in

Never get to many photos of that one either (it's good for internal details, which for the most parts also are identical between the TIII and the TV).

[Islandern]

Just want to check how it's going with the guide?


Have a great day! 


Regards,

[NZSnowman]

Just want to check how it's going with the guide?


Have a great day! 


Regards,

I am still working on it. I am updating all my TV drawings.

[Islandern]

Sounds great! Keep up the good work. 

[NZSnowman]

Work is slow but I am still plodding along slowly.

Over the last few weeks I have add a lot of new detail to my G7es/T5 model.


This image has been resized from 4K. Click to view original image.

[Natter]

Nice finish. Obviously still several details to be added, but I just want to comment on two things that struck me initially:
Number and placement of the topside joining screws (ref attached photos of the G7es(TV) on display in U-505), and the "Salamander" coil for the warhead igniter (ref detail from a german drawing showing a vertical cut: For measuring-reference: The steel in the hull of the gyroscope compartment is 3 mm thick).

[Natter]

I don't remember if I've posted these before, but just in case you need to adjust some details for the tailsection and propellers:

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Natter. I will fixed my errors.

[Islandern]

NZSnowman, how is it going? Still looking forward to look on this when released. 


All the best,

[Islandern]

Hi, How is it going NZSnowman? Still looking forward to your work.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Islandern
Sorry about the late rely.
I have not been working on the Torpedo research for the last few years, as I wanted to finish my research on the exhaust system. I was hoping to present my finding last year but I have PC problems and was not able to do what I wanted. I hoping to present my finding before March, if my problems are fixed with my PC.