VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

I think you are right. If you look at Plate 11:  High pressure air system & Plate 12:  Low pressure or service air system there no air lines going to Compensating Tank 2 & 3. The only a air line is to the Forward Trim Tank (this is the air line you can see in P1100408.JPG ) On Plate 6:  Trimming, compensating and drainage system you can see the piping to drain Compensatings Tank 2 & 3.

In fact, there is connection from Low pressure or service air system
(=> torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3) through the Ausgleicharmatur - look at
Plate 25:  Torpedo tube firing, venting, flooding and drainage systems - LP Air Distributor and through valves
(c2) and (v) to compensating tanks and valves (q) to torpedo tubes.

The water was moved from compensating tanks to torpedo tubes (and vice versa) by means of low pressurized air.
But water could leave the compensating tanks only through the blue pipe led down to the bottom of tank.

I need to update the blue pipe, as I think I have make the diameter to big (I have it at 70 mm now but I starting to think it more like 60 mm) and I am almost certain it does not go through the Forward Trim Tank but long the top like is the picture (P1100408.JPG). I also need to add it to both starboard and port side of the boat.

I agree with you about the blue pipe.

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

I have a few questions

In plate 25, the air line to torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3, would only be an overflow or overpressure line and could not be normally or never used to blow the water out of these tanks?

Why would you want to move water from the compensating tanks to torpedo tubes? Was it to equal the pressure the tube before opening the outer door?

Simon

[SnakeDoc]

In plate 25, the air line to torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3, would only be an overflow or overpressure line and could not be normally or never used to blow the water out of these tanks?

This line was used to vent/overpressure the compensating tanks during flooding these tanks either
from sea or from torpedo tubes (when tubes were drained), or to blown water from compensating tanks
to torpedo tubes (but not to the sea).

Why would you want to move water from the compensating tanks to torpedo tubes?
Was it to equal the pressure the tube before opening the outer door?

That's right. To open outer (muzzle) torpedo tube door, the tube had to be flooded and
connected for a while with a sea to equalize the pressure.
To flood the tube, ~370 l of sea water had to be taken (per one tube). If there were
four tubes flooded, over 1 ton of water had to be taken.

To avoid such great change of boat's weight (which was carefully compensated previously),
the water previously stored in torpedo compensating tanks was used.
The water was blown to torpedo tubes by means of pressurized air.
Thus the weight of the boat was not changed, and the change of the trim
was relative small.

After launching the torpedo and closing, the tube was full of water. Then the water from tube
was blown by means of pressurized air to compenating tanks.

I tried to describe process of flooding and draining the tubes in the following text
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/component/option,com_flexicontent/Itemid,76/cid,66/id,337/view,items
paragraph 2. Torepedo tube flooding and drainage installation

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

On Plate 11:  High pressure air system, http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm do you know where is pressure hull valve A₁ for the high pressure air bank 6 is?

Thanks, Simon.

[SnakeDoc]

Hello

I think that this is valve marked as (v) o the diagram


(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm)

This is valve used to select which torpedo compensating tank 2 or 3 is to be used to flood/drain the tubes.

I was wrong guesing this valve - for sure it can not be this one marked as (v).
I have an idea, what can it be, but I have to do some more researches to make sure.

On Plate 11:  High pressure air system, http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm do you know where is pressure hull valve A₁ for the high pressure air bank 6 is?

Simon, it's hard to locate it, but I'm working on it

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

Does tube II & IV drain into Compensating Tank 2 and tube I & III drain into Compensating Tank 3?

Simon

[NZSnowman]

On Plate 11:  High pressure air system, http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm do you know where is pressure hull valve A₁ for the high pressure air bank 6 is?

Simon, it's hard to locate it, but I'm working on it

--
Regards
Maciek

Maciek, I found it!!! I will post pictures soon.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

I was able to found the valves and filters for high pressure air bank 4, 5 & 6.

Fig. 1. Plate 11:  High pressure air system. (www.uboatarchive.net)


Fig. 2. Port side bulkhead. HP bank 6 - Valve A₁ with filter.


Fig. 3. Starboard side bulkhead. HP bank 4 & 5 - Valve D's with the two filters.

[NZSnowman]

High pressure air bank 4 and 5.

[Pat]

There was a program on TV just last week about the Japanese mini-subs that were sent to attack Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941 that deals with the buoyancy compensation when firing a torpedo.

There were 5 subs sent in on the attack and historians can account for what happened to only 4 of the subs.  These boats were either destroyed or washed ashore before they could attack.

However, they always wondered what happened to the 5th boat and the program was about what evidence they had that it might have succeeded in firing both its torpedoes.

I won

[NZSnowman]

Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

[NZSnowman]

I found a Norwegian label on a small box attached to the torpedo tube, I am trying to translate it back to German. Does this look right below, to our German specking members.

Norwegian

Baughette

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Does tube II & IV drain into Compensating Tank 2 and tube I & III drain into Compensating Tank 3?

In the first approach is seems so:

(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate7.htm)

But in Design Study for Type IXC (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm)
in chapters "9C-S49 COMPRESSED AIR PLANT" and "9C-S88 DAMAGE CONTROL"
I have read:

40.  The two torpedo low pressure manifolds are each provided with a connection for pneumatic tools.
a line to the marker buoy stowage, and a line to the group of valves which control the flooding, blowing
and draining of the torpedo tubes.  This last group of valves, for each tube, consists of a stop valve, a relief
valve and pressure gauge, a four-way cock which admits air to the torpedo tube on the WRT tank while
venting the other one of the pair, and a three-way cock to permit selective venting of either or both ends
of the torpedo tube.  There is also an individual cock in the vent line of each WRT tank and a common three-way
cock which permits selective use of either WRT tank by any torpedo tube.

47.  The only tributaries of the torpedo low pressure air manifolds which call for description are the
combination of valves related to the torpedo tube filling and draining.  On this combination, operation
of one four-way cock admits air under pressure either to the WRT tank or to the torpedo tube with
which the cock is associated.  Related operation of a cock on the tube drain line then permits flow of
water from the WRT tank to the tube, or vice versa, as desired.  Further, the operation of an additional
three-way cock in the air line permits blowing or venting one or both ends of the tube.  A further
three-way cock in the sir line to the WRT tank, when operated together with a three-way cock on the
common drain line to the WRT tanks, permits a choice of draining to or flooding from either the port or
starboard WRT tank.

A further possibility of controlling list exists in the WRT tank air and water connections in each torpedo
room, which are such as to permit water from one WRT tank to be blown into the other, or to permit flooding
of either WRT tank, there being a port and starboard WRT tank in each torpedo room.

WRT tank - Water Round Torpedo Tank - in german terms - Torpedo Compensating Tank/Torpedo Zelle

(I know, that it is description for type IXC, but it I'm sure, the similar arrangement was on type VII boats).

I have also investigated the original plate 25 (Be- und Entw

[SnakeDoc]

Hello

Images for starboard side I'm going to post in the evening.

Here are my guesses for starboard side:

On the photo below I marked the additional valve, which is missing on the drawings


(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

Below I marked the vent valve (equivalent of k valve - I hope) and junction, where was
thee-way cock v but was removed because of cutting the exit door in pressure hull.


(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

Below two more views of these part of installation:




(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

I'm not quite sure about above assumptions - I do not have good enough photos
to confirm that. The best way would be visiting the Laboe :-)

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

Still going through all your data above, however I really like the picture of forward torpedo room of U-534 after her rising. It made me think I would do a quick search on the net to see if I could find any other of the torpedo room. I am still looking, but I did noticed something!

There a picture of a G7es/T5

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

Thanks for the information and your time. I will update my drawing later.

(I know, that it is description for type IXC, but it I'm sure, the similar arrangement was on type VII boats).

Yes, were are many similar systems & arrangement between the Type VIIC and the Type IX

[Pat]

Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

If I remember correctly, it was a program called "The American Experience" and it was the Buffalo, New York, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), station WNED.  I'm sure they must have a website.

The American Experience is an ongoing series that takes some event in US history that might have some unknown or controversial details and every week goes into whatever is known about it.

[NZSnowman]

The opening/closing of the out torpedo tube door

 
Fig. 1. The torpedo tube.


Fig. 2. Inner section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube. 


Fig. 3. Outer section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube, outside the pressure hull. 


Fig. 4. A close-up view of the screw gears, control rods and chain system linking the two sub-systems together.


Fig. 5. A full view of this system.

[NZSnowman]

I'm not quite sure about above assumptions - I do not have good enough photos
to confirm that. The best way would be visiting the Laboe :-)

http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

There a picture of a G7es/T5

[SnakeDoc]

The opening/closing of the out torpedo tube door

Fig. 1. The torpedo tube.

Fig. 2. Inner section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube. 

Fig. 3. Outer section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube, outside the pressure hull. 

Fig. 4. A close-up view of the screw gears, control rods and chain system linking the two sub-systems together.

Fig. 5. A full view of this system.

Simon, it looks awesome !

--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

I imagine that the parallel valve have to be on the other, starboard side, but I don't
have any direct evidence - there is no good photo of that part of room - it is always
hidden by opened inner tube door or shaft gear of the manual drive for diving planes  

I think that I can see valve handle on this photo (but maybe it's my imagination).
The fragment in the rectangle is a part of image after simple processing/sharpening.



--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Hello

I think that I can see valve handle on this photo (but maybe it's my imagination).

It was my imagination. But maybe this valve is the one I looked for:



The screenshot is from the link the Simon posted above:
http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php#oben


--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

If I remember correctly, it was a program called "The American Experience" and it was the Buffalo, New York, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), station WNED.  I'm sure they must have a website.

The American Experience is an ongoing series that takes some event in US history that might have some unknown or controversial details and every week goes into whatever is known about it.

Thanks Pat! Found it.
http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Killer-Subs-In-Pearl-Harbor-1399 Can not watch it in NZ but its also YouTube

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek & All


From U-Boote Crews by J Delize

I have for a long time, wondered why the flanges for the drainage lines were so large and on the outside of the bow casting as all the other flanges are on the inside. From the drawing below you can see why now. There so little room to have the flanges on the inside.

[Pepper-mint]

 

OK ? 

Awesome work, so much devotion, passion, questions, RESULTS...

I'm one of your biggest Fans Snowman !

BTW : check your e-mail trash-folder. 

[NZSnowman]

The drainage system for compensating tanks 2 & 3, and Forward Trim Tank


(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate7.htm)

Red arrows are the drainage system for compensating tanks 2 & 3 and blue arrows are the drainage system for Forward Trim Tank. You may see that the drainage pipe for the Forward Trim Tank (blue arrows) goes through the compensating tank 2, this is because there no room to directly contact this pipe to the Forward Trim Tank as the high pressure air bottle is in the way.

[SnakeDoc]

Hi

Accidentally I have found following photos:

















Found on:
http://traktoria.org/files/snorkel/


Maybe you'll find them interesting.

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Maciek!! I had seen the snorkel valve pictures before but not the full set. The pictures of the snorkel on the Type VII must be a very very early design. Does anyone recognize what U-boat number this is?


Here a close-up of one of the pictures. The lower platform looks very strange! I do not even recognize which Turm it is. Dougie or anyone, does anyone recognize it?

[dougie47]

Hi gents,

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

U 235 was very unusual in several respects. Firstly when it was commissioned in Dec 42 it had an original tower but with the late styl;e of deck (planked). A quite unusual combination!

By October 1943 it had a snorchel and a Turm II. This Turm II was a little different than normal - there has a curved edge to the tower that can be clearly seen in the last photo.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Hi gents,

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

U 235 was very unusual in several respects. Firstly when it was commissioned in Dec 42 it had an original tower but with the late styl;e of deck (planked). A quite unusual combination!

By October 1943 it had a snorchel and a Turm II. This Turm II was a little different than normal - there has a curved edge to the tower that can be clearly seen in the last photo.

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie. I had a good feeling that you would see this before.

[NZSnowman]

The drainage system for Torpedo Tubes

Hi Maciek & All.

I have adding the drainage piping similar to U-534. I also decide to keep the two 3-way valves the same on both sides till we know for sure of there locations. I redrawn the drainage pipe that run under the Torpedo Tubes, I added a incline so the lines would now self drain.

[Rokket]

nice pix, cool to see the detail bits1

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Maciek, I found it!!! I will post pictures soon.

Here are my research results:

I think that HP Line for HP Bank No 4 (port air flasks) is as follow:



(I marked the filter and valve d



and then goes



and just before frame 69 goes to the deck.



somewhere here:




--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Next, I guess that HP Line for HP Bank No 5 (starboard air flasks) is as follow:







Unlike at port side, the line goes to the deck jest near the bulkhead.
And there is valve d missing.

--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

I think that hull valve a₁ for HP Bank 6 is located here:



Then the lines go at both sides:

starboard:



and then to the Control Room, through the valve d



port:


(view from the stern)


(view from the bow)

The port line goes through the valve c₂ to the mine ejection installation.



--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Low pressure air line for blowing torpedo tubes/torpedo compensating tanks:



On the photo below I marked connectio to the line from the Control Room (also marked on previous photo)
and connection to the starboard side, which is led near the frame.



And below - connection from port side



Unfortunately I do not have enough detailed photos of torpedo room aft bulkhead port side, so I can not figure
if there is a branch for pneumatic tools connection or branch line for blowing bow buoyancy tank.

--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Pressure equalization line





Another view of the junction:



Line connection with valve of the tube II (port, top) and junction:



Line connection with valve of tube III (stb, bottom):




--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

Wonderful research! You have moved it forward.

High Pressure Air Bank 6

I think you are correct about this system. Hull valve a₁ is located at the correct internal frame number compare to the high pressure bottle located outside the pressure hull. In addition, what little we can see of this valve, it does certainly look like a pressure hull valve.

Were you able to locate the pressure gage before valve c₂?

I will update my drawing today

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

You have moved is forward also

High Pressure Air Bank 4 & 5.

I believe you are correct about this system also. After posting my results the other day on the high pressure lines, I found an original German plan that illustrating the alignment of the high pressure air bottles of bank 4 & 5. As soon as I saw this plan, I knew that something was worry in my initial research . It’s good that you also found this error in my research, as any research is only as good was it peer review.

One thing I can not understand is, why move all the air lines for bank 4 & 5  to the Port of the boat, when the high pressure air manifold is on the starboard side of the boat        

[NZSnowman]

Low pressure air line

I had been rechecking the piping for the low pressure air line. That do you think about this:

Pneumatic tools connection


Red Arrow = Pressure gage (missing).
Blue Arrow = Connection points.
Yellow Arrow = Valve c.

I think they may have updated the low pressure system for the Type VIIC/41. Here a suggestion for the new low pressure air line.

Red arrow = Flow of low pressure air.
Blue arrow = New master valve.
Yellow arrow = Low pressure line to tube II & IV (Port Side), control by new valve (pink arrow).
Green arrow =  Low pressure line to tube I & III (starboard side), control by new valve (megente arrow).
Black arrow = Pressure hull valve for forward buoyancy tank.

What do you think

[Rokket]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything but the tool connection - it's similar in Gatos, so I can sort of recognise that!

[NZSnowman]

Hi gents,

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

U 235 was very unusual in several respects. Firstly when it was commissioned in Dec 42 it had an original tower but with the late styl;e of deck (planked). A quite unusual combination!

By October 1943 it had a snorchel and a Turm II. This Turm II was a little different than normal - there has a curved edge to the tower that can be clearly seen in the last photo.

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

I was thinking about U-234, perhaps she was unusual because she was a training and school U-boat, and they keep she update with each new equipment to train the sailor on

She was also unusual at her dead! So near the end of the war (14 April 1945), she was sunk in error by a depth charges from the German torpedo boat (all hands lost)   I wonder if this was the only U-boat the Kriegsmarine sunk.

[NZSnowman]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything but the tool connection - it's similar in Gatos, so I can sort of recognise that!

I am not knowledgeable enough either. I am still learning!!

That is one thing I like, that each day I learn something new

[NZSnowman]

Impulse Tank/High pressure air bottle for torpedo tube

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Were you able to locate the pressure gage before valve c₂?

Well, I think that it is located at top, port torpedo tube:



with the probe line leading from the valve as marked here:



The similar arrangement here:



--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Low pressure air line

I had been rechecking the piping for the low pressure air line. That do you think about this:

Pneumatic tools connection


Red Arrow = Pressure gage (missing).
Blue Arrow = Connection points.
Yellow Arrow = Valve c.

I think that there are two possibilities:
1. Connection points you have marked with blue arrow are for pneumatic tools, and they are connected to line
visible near the frame, which is led from the port side and from the bulkhead.
2. Connection points are for torpedo testing and charging and are connected to the HP air system.

I can not find any photos clear enough to determine this.

I think they may have updated the low pressure system for the Type VIIC/41. Here a suggestion for the new low pressure air line.

Red arrow = Flow of low pressure air.
Blue arrow = New master valve.
Yellow arrow = Low pressure line to tube II & IV (Port Side), control by new valve (pink arrow).
Green arrow =  Low pressure line to tube I & III (starboard side), control by new valve (megente arrow).
Black arrow = Pressure hull valve for forward buoyancy tank.

Well, I had thought initially, that valves you marked belongs to torpedo high pressure air manifold with:
Red and Green arrows - outputs respectively to the
charging air impulse tanks and torpedoes and to the air motor for anchor capstan.
Yellow arrow with opposite direction would be input from Control Room,
and that one marked as inflow would be drain to the bilge.

The valves for controling low pressure air lines would be gathered at the port side of bulkhead...

--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

I have tried to back trace the connection to torpedo HP air manifold by locating connections
for charging torpedo impulse tanks:





green arrows - valves c₁
black arrrow - frame No 75
red arrows - HP charging lines

The lines are connected by the bridge line which is led near the frame No 75.
But I cannot determine, how where the joints are located exactly, and how it goes
backward to the bulkhead.


--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon

Were you able to locate the pressure gage before valve c₂?

Well, I think that it is located at top, port torpedo tube:



with the probe line leading from the valve as marked here:



The similar arrangement here:



--
Regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek

I am not sure if we are talking about the same pressure gage, as I was thinking there was only one pressure gage to measurement the pressure in Bank 6 (being located before it spit to port and starboard)?


Plate 11:  High pressure air system


Plate 25:  Torpedo tube firing, venting, flooding and drainage systems

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

I am not sure if we are talking about the same pressure gage, as I was thinking there was only one pressure gage to measurement the pressure in Bank 6 (being located before it spit to port and starboard)?

Yes, we talk about the same :-)
The last picture is an example of arrangement - thick, probe line connecting valve with gauge.
It was not related with the one, you asked for.

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

While drawing the Impulse Tanks, I notice two small outlets near the top of the bottle. The left outlet look like a line to a pressure gage and the right look like a safely valve You can see both in P1100414.JPG. Do you know anything about them

Thanks for the answer below

Still looking through all the new data you posted today, but several things do make more sense about the high pressure system on the starboard side. It would be very

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

I must say there so much new data and things, that I am starting to lose track on all the piping I will need to read all our posts again to fully understand it before I start adding each subsystem to my drawing.

Well, I'm sure that you can easly figure out all that mess - after you managed out to draw Diesel Engine Room you are
one of the most qualified and experienced person to do that task.

--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Finally I have found a mysterious piece of installation:







On the first image I have marked with:
red arrow - valve, which seems like either valve without second/output line or hull valve.
green arrow - part, which looks like pressure regulator
blue arrow - valve - maybe to set desired pressure on regulator

I was also not able to trace the pipe, which is going downward to the blue valve.

On photos there are visible one pressure gauge and one probe line and place, where second pressure gauge was mounted.
The existing pressure gauge is scaled up to 25 at, so it seems like it is located at low pressure side.
Was the missing pressure gauge located at high pressure side?

The most probably function of this installation would be pressure reduction on line, which is connected to air
motor for anchor capstan.

The other possibility is that it is late-war or even post-war modification. I have found this picture of Forward Torpedo
Room of type VIIC boat and compared it with the view of U-995.





The photo is not clear and detailed but I can not see these valves.

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

On this day, 3 years ago I started my drawing and I still have 3-4 years to go.

[SnakeDoc]

Hello

One interesting thing I have noticed lately.

As we know, on type VII U-Boats, the anchor capstan was driven by the compressed-air propelled motor,
which was located in the Forward Torpedo Room, in the bilge, between the torpedo tubes.


(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

On the photo of Forward Torpedo Room on U-570, there are visible one driving shaft connecting motor with driving gear,
and one shaft, which connected the upper deck with control valve, located in the bilge, near the motor.

Till now, I have always thought, that on the U-995 was similar - they only removed the shafts, to make visiting easier.
On the following photo, I marked the part, which I thought was a drive gear.


(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

But during my researches, I think, that someone - either German, or Norwegians, moved the motor up to the ceiling -
and made it similar as on type IX boats.


Forward Torpedo Room of U-190 (source: "Vom Original zum Modell: Uboottyp IX C")


Forward Torpedo Room of U-505 (source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)


This modification required the change in HP air lines - that's what I have noticed:

On the following picture, I have marked the input line and regulating valve.



Here I've marked line connecting regulating valve and air motor.



Another view:





May the motor was moved by Germans, to make the easier access to the LUT setting device?


--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

I had a look at U-995 Das U-Boot vor dem Marine Ehrenmal in Laboe By Wetzel, Eckard, and found one poor detail picture of the forward torpedo room on page 38. In the picture you can just make out the driving shaft and control arm, the picture is take sometime between 1943 and 1945. I then found a better picture of the forward torpedo room on page 151 taken sometime between 1965 and 1971, and you can see the motor has been moved up to the ceiling.

This may suggest that the Norwegians move the motor

The Norwegians did a similar thing with the periscope on U-995 they replacing the old periscope with a new Type XXIII periscope.

[NZSnowman]

Need a break from torpedoes today

Late war DF antenna-loop

[Pat]

Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 

[NZSnowman]

A update on the drawing, now includes the Saddle Tank Hatches



Key for Drawing
http://www.mediafire.com/?ign98y2vc981py8

Hi Dougie

Check out the hatch!!!! from atlantikpirat


Full image http://atlantikpirat.proforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=2653

[NZSnowman]

Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 

1.) I am not sure on this as I have not research this, but I have a picture of U-362 from late 1944 with the newer DF style. It look like almost (I may say all now) all the boats (Type VIIC & VIIC/41) that surrendered had one.

2.) Part 2 in the morning, time for bed.

[Rokket]

Nice antenna!

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

Thanks, that really is a wonderful pic. Superb for lower hull weathering too.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 

2.) There is very little room between the nose of a torpedo and the inside of the torpedo door, could be less than 50 mm. I am thinking around 30

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek
Does this look like the correct layout for the piping for bank 6 (in red)

Thanks, Simon.

I think that hull valve a₁ for HP Bank 6 is located here:



Then the lines go at both sides:

starboard:



and then to the Control Room, through the valve d



port:


(view from the stern)


(view from the bow)

The port line goes through the valve c₂ to the mine ejection installation.



--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 

Hi Pat

Being looking today for pictures of the late war DF Loop. 

Found that U-1056 had one on 29 April 1944 or U-869 on 26 January 1944 - Not 100% on the dates

Boats with one, U-362, U-776, U-858, U-869, U-875, U-889, U-953, U-995, U-997, U-1023, U-1056, U-1165 & U-1305.

Simon

[NZSnowman]

Boats with one, U-362, U-776, U-858, U-869, U-875, U-889, U-953, U-995, U-997, U-1023, U-1056, U-1165 & U-1305.

Also U-826, U-1058, U-1109

[Greif]

Very nice antenna Simon!  Accurate and well rendered as always.

Ernest

[NZSnowman]

Fig. 1. Early war Direction Finder Antenna Loops. The DF Loop on the right is a 'left behind' if the FuMB-26 Tunis was remove.


Fig. 2. Update: Late war Direction Finder Antenna Loop

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Does this look like the correct layout for the piping for bank 6 (in red)

Yes, the top view layout looks correct.
Still not 100% sure, how does it look in front view...


--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Maciek


Fig. 1. Piping for High Pressure Air Bank 6

[Pat]

2.) There is very little room between the nose of a torpedo and the inside of the torpedo door, could be less than 50 mm. I am thinking around 30

[Rokket]

The Yanks kept their arming inside as an impeller, there was a bit of a slot under the nose. But same principle, and same basic magnetic pistol. Interetsing!

[NZSnowman]

I was able to print my U-boat drawing out today on my 10 years old colour print. The detail is fantastic , And that at 1:43 and on my old printer. I can not wait to print it out on the large format printer at 1200 dpi Since I have free wall space I will increase the scale of my drawing from 1:43 to 1:32. But will need to check if they can still print this new size. 

Below is the new printout in my office.

[Rokket]

If your printer can't, I can at work - 840mm wide, and multi metres long. If you need it let me know and I'll see what the Chief says about a super low price.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Rokket

Thanks for the help There a place I been using in the city that can print wide format. I am trying to keep using the same printer, as I found that the colours are not all ways the same for every printer.

I just printer U-1308 at 1:32. It

[NZSnowman]

Here me, with the 1:32 scale printout Its does not look so big in the photograph, but within the room it huge (the poster is about 2200 x 800 mm). Maybe too big

I can not decide if I should go for one big poster at 1:32 of the internal view on one wall only
Or go smaller…
One posters at 1:43 scale, of the internal view on one wall, and on the other wall a 1:43 scale external view

I was just thinking maybe…
The 1:32 scale of the internal view on one wall and on other wall the external views of each Type used during the war so a Type II, VII, IX, XXI & XXIII all at 1:72 scale.

Anyone have any suggestion, that may look good



Here the 1:43 scale printout.

[Rokket]

Go big and spend the money to frame. In the end, you will have a masterpiece! (Your work is the masterpiece, the framing/display is just to show it off)

[NZSnowman]

I had the mock-up 1:32 scale poster up now for 24 hours and I am starting it like it It still looks big....but it looks good.  I had always intended to frame the poster. I being thinking a nice plan black frame.

[Greif]

Simon, it looks very good.  Like Wink, I have the ability to print high quality and large products.  Not sure how that could help you, but if you want, when you are finished with the project I can print several copies.

Ernest

[NZSnowman]

Hi Wink & Ernest

Before the start of the New Zealand winter I want to have finished the working drawing this will included having the under deck piping layout, deck layout (with hatches) the framing and ribbing, etc

[Rokket]

keep up the great work!

[TRM]

Hello Simon,

The news has been pouring in about the eathquake. I remember you saying you were North of Christchurch. I truely hope all is well for you as well as with your family and friends. Please know that our thoughts and prayers go out to all our friends in NZ. Take care.

Kindest Regards,

T

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

I'd like to echo these sentiments. It is terrible news to hear about the NZ earthquake and our thoughts are with everyone out there.

Best regards,

Dougie

[DB Andrus]

Simon,

I pray that you and your family are safe and well.

Best Regards,

D.B.

[NZSnowman]

Hi All

Thanks for the kind words After nearly 24 hours finally got word that all the family is Ok and well. There is no or little phone lines, water, and power in Christchurch at this time, so getting news out is hard. As of this morning 65 dead, over 100’s people are still trap in building

I think a few close calls within the family, my sister was in one of the biggest shopping central in Christchurch at the time EQ and she said that part of roof collapse on to them.

Simon

[Johann Vilthomsen]

You have my full support and affection. I am glad to hear that you and your family are well.
My condolences for those killed in the earthquake.

[TRM]

Good news to hear you and your family are well.  We will continue to pray for all those who perished and most certainly for who are in harms way.

Respectfully ,

T

[Rokket]

Very pleased you and the family are well...there's not much you can do about or in an earthquake.

[NZSnowman]

The earthquake is not only affecting Christchurch but most of the South Island. I have to go down south of Christchurch to do a few days work and almost all the petrol centrals for 3 hours driving time out of Christchurch are out of fuel because people are panic buying. The same for bread and milk, lots of people are panic buying food etc... also. It is starting to calm down a bit now as people realizes there is no need to panic and stockpile fuel or food.

[Rokket]

I hope you can get through the nastiness quickly and return to normal!

[NZSnowman]

I hope you can get through the nastiness quickly and return to normal!

That may take a while, they are saying that one third of the building in Christchurch's CBD are either destroyed or will have to be demolished    

[Rokket]

That is devastating.  Keep us posted.

[NZSnowman]

Even, U-1308 has been affect by the Christchurch earthquake Last week I had to take my big computer into Christchurch to get fix. I pickup my computer in the weekend and realize after getting home that the shop had forget to give my back my power cable (I have a special power cord for my big computer). I call them and ask for them to sent it back to me. But now it lose in the mailing system of Christchurch and there will be no mail system for about 8 days until they can get the system up and running again. So, there will have been a delay on U-1308, but it's given me time to do all the little job around home that I been putting off for the summer

[Rokket]

frustrating, but good you can make it useful and productive!

[NZSnowman]

Work has restarted again on U-1308, after the mailing system was restarted after the EQ in Chch. Today the dockworker installed the port side Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor. As I have now decided to do U-1308 in 1:32 scale, I have decided to add a few cutaway views, as at this scale it will allow me to show some of the detail inside equipment. 

[NZSnowman]

Here a couple of fact about the Chch EQ.

• They believe 70,000 people (approximately fifth of Christchurch's population, have fled the city since the earthquake on 22 February).
• They now think it is the must powerful earthquake ever it hit a city CBD area.
• They expected parts of the CBD will be closed for up to six months. This can be seen in the Kiwi dollar hitting a 19-year low against the Australian dollar.
• So far 50 percent of the top level heritage building in Christchurch are likely to be demolished and 1,350 house are likely to be demolished also.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Maciek

How the research going on the piping? Now that I got my computer going again I am going to restart on my research on the piping.

Simon

[NZSnowman]

Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

If I remember correctly, it was a program called "The American Experience" and it was the Buffalo, New York, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), station WNED.  I'm sure they must have a website.

The American Experience is an ongoing series that takes some event in US history that might have some unknown or controversial details and every week goes into whatever is known about it.

Thanks Pat! Found it.
http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Killer-Subs-In-Pearl-Harbor-1399 Can not watch it in NZ but its also YouTube

Hi Pat

Just watch it on YouTube. Excellent program!! Thanks again.

Simon

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

How the research going on the piping? Now that I got my computer going again I am going to restart on my research on the piping.

Researches are momentary stalled - I'm afraid, that without any new materials or without visit in Laboe,
at this moment I can't figure out something new...

I hope, I will visit U-995 in May, and then many question will be answered.

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Top view of the port Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor.


Side view of the Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon

How the research going on the piping? Now that I got my computer going again I am going to restart on my research on the piping.

Researches are momentary stalled - I'm afraid, that without any new materials or without visit in Laboe,
at this moment I can't figure out something new...

I hope, I will visit U-995 in May, and then many question will be answered.

--
Regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek

Thanks for the update I will finish the basic piping and then wait till you return from Laboe, before drawing the harder parts

Simon

[Pepper-mint]

Hi Simon,

I just wanted to be the "nine hundred and one post"  congrats Mate !!!

Cheers,
Laurent

[NZSnowman]

Hi Dougie

While doing your research on the vent patterns, did you come across any dimensions for the twelve circular vents above the torpedo doors? From the better set of plans I have, I got a diameter of 120 mm for the vents.

Simon

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

I didn't do too much research into the holes for the article but did spend time on this for the U-Brass set, which included a drill template for these holes.

I think 120mm is a wee bit too large. I can't say for sure because we just working from photos, sometimes with not great resolution, and often taken at angles against the vents. The latter is a pain as it distorts calculations.

When we did the U-Brass set we reckoned that the circular hole was around 75mm. This was worked out by comparing the width of the hole against the space between each hole. This worked out with a few photos at around a factor of 0.4 (or 2.5 doing it the other way).

For example if the space between holes was 180mm then the hole itself would be 72mm.

Its hard to come up with a definitive figure for the holes but I reckon 75mm looks right against photos, whereas 120mm is too big.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Dougie for the information. I did not think about checking photographs. U-995 still has three original vents on the starboard side. I will see if I can calculate something from them and have a look at war photographs also

After looking at U-995, 120 mm does look a little big

Simon

[NZSnowman]

Hi Dougie

Using several very good photographs of U-995 I calculated a mean diameter of 69.852 mm with a SD of ±1.997 mm

So, I calculate the vents at: Diameter of 70 ±2 mm; With a drop of 25 mm per vent; With the first vent being 100 mm below the deck surface.

Simon

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

Fantastic, if you get a figure so close by independent measurements then this is really good. I'll go with 70mm.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Atlantic Bow - Update

While adding the twelve circular vents above the torpedo doors to U-1308, I noticed that they did not fix the Type VIIC/41 very well. So I have another look at the bow shape. I feel that I made a mistake in my original drawing

http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5634;topicseen#msg5634

I believe now the alteration for the Atlantic Bow only affect the bow casting section, and does not affect the deck to № 91 like in my original drawing. If the alteration is only affecting the bow casting section, is makes sense as they would not need to modify any other part of the boat.


The pink outline is the Type VIIC and the green outline is the Atlantic Bow.


Above you can see the bow casting section. Is this the section they would had alternated for the Atlantic Bow (Source: Westwood).


Above you can see the outline of the Atlantic Bow (Source: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=21)

[Rokket]

You can really see it in that last pic, wow

[NZSnowman]

You can also see the outline on U-995 and a few other war time pictures of the Atlantic Bow.


(Source: http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

[NZSnowman]

U-1308 new bow section

[Rokket]

as always, looking great

[NZSnowman]

Free-Flooding Vent Patterns for U-1105, U-1106, U-1107, U-1304, U-1306 and U-1308 (or Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating).

Below are the likely Free-Flooding vent patterns for the U-boats above. The vent patterns are base on photographs of U-1105. In the images below, they display the standard Free-Flooding vent patterns for a Type VIIC/4 (in white) and the new layout for boats with the Alberich coating. They made the vents bigger, and had fewer of them. 

Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the stern


Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the central drainage area


Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the bow

[NZSnowman]

Boats with one, U-362, U-776, U-858, U-869, U-875, U-889, U-953, U-995, U-997, U-1023, U-1056, U-1165 & U-1305.

Also U-826, U-1058, U-1109

Also U-1202.

[NZSnowman]

Update for the Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the stern.

Made a few changes to the vents base on better photographs of U-1105.


Fig. 1. Top layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating/Lower layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's.

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

Good work on these vents. I've seen very few photos of Alberich boats, hence why I never put them in the vent article. I'm pleased you've been able to establish the patterns.

Any ideas what they did on Alberich boats for the lower vents - the ones behind the foreplanes and the other group near the props?

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Any ideas what they did on Alberich boats for the lower vents - the ones behind the foreplanes and the other group near the props?

I have been thinking about the same thing. At this moment I am unsure as I have no pictures of these area but I imagine they reduce the number of vents and made them larger.

[NZSnowman]

Dougie, here something I have just noticed on U-1105, the 5 man life raft containers under the lower wintergaten has been remove (at least the starboard one - can not see the port side of the boat).

They must have removed them to make the surface smoother so they could lay the tiles on the lower wintergaten.

[NZSnowman]

Update for the Free-Flooding Vent patterns

► Made a few changes to the vents base on the better photographs of U-1105. (Top - Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating/Lower layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's).

Stern Vents


Bow Vents

[NZSnowman]

Here a little bit of information on how the Germans fixed the steel plate to the casting of the U-boat, if people are keen to know.

While redrawing the correct bow for my Type VIIC/41 late month, I noted that my u-boat was short by about 60 mm (or a couple of millimetres at 1:32). I found my error in my base datum measurements. The ribbing should measure 500 mm but somehow my were approximately ⁵/₁₀₀₀ millimetres short  Over the 130 plus ribs is added up. I could have easy stretch the drawing to get the extra length I needed and no one would know (No one would have every noticed the drawing was 2 mm short anyway ). However, for me my drawing needs to be as near to 100% correct as I can get it, so I redrawn all 6000 plus rivets, all the ribbing and framing.

After nearly 40 hours of drawing, now all the ribbing frames etc... are correct to ¹/₁₀₀₀  For the last 3 days I had been redrawing the keel. I noticed I had the incorrect number of rivets between the internal framing so I fix this also. While doing this I also notice several rows of double rivets. It looks like the Germans would rivets each steel plate to the internal framing. This made me think, as I never seen rows of double rivets on the casting. So I recheck the casting. It looks like on the casting the German used a different style to fix the steel plate. They would overlay the steel plate steel plate and then wield the plates together.


In this pictures you can see the rows double rivets on the keel.


In this pictures you can see the single rows rivets on the keel (green) and the overlap of the steel plate and the weild (red).

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon,

Good work on these vents. I've seen very few photos of Alberich boats, hence why I never put them in the vent article. I'm pleased you've been able to establish the patterns.

Any ideas what they did on Alberich boats for the lower vents - the ones behind the foreplanes and the other group near the props?

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

Here is my best guess what they did with the diesel air inlet vents on the main bridge casting. On one of the U-1105 photographs, there is a smaller, compacter, darker shape in the area of diesel air inlet vents. This could be evidence of a single larger oval vent this would furthermore match what they did with the free flooding vents of to reduce the number of vents and making them larger.

Simon


Fig. 1. The standard diesel air inlet vents on the main bridge casting for Type VIIC/41’s.


Fig. 2. The possible shape and size of the diesel air inlet vents on the main bridge casting for Type VIIC/41’s with the Alberich coating.

[Rokket]

This is where the Main Induction is on USN subs (the main air inlet for engines and everything), it was about 1 metre in dia under the casing. Assuming something similar here?

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

I'm sure you're right about this vent - makes good sense. I've never seen a below the waterline photo of an Alberich boat, which would be good to see.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon,

I'm sure you're right about this vent - makes good sense. I've never seen a below the waterline photo of an Alberich boat, which would be good to see.

Cheers,

Dougie

I have four photographs of U-1105 with the Alberich coating on. One of photographs is of U-1105 in dry-dock (Seen in Revell Type VIIC/41 (Scale 1:72) - Instructions Sheets). The photograph is very useful, nevertheless, being a B&W photograph and having black tiles, most of small details is loss in the photograph. However, I am just thankful that we got some photographs to work from, as so many boats don

[NZSnowman]

Does anyone have a picture or know that the Forward Towing Hook look likes, on the Type VIIB/C's?

[reaper7]

Hi NZSnowman, just been going thru this thread and your doing amazing work.
Noticed all the Mediafire links are invalid (Invalid or Deleted File)  any chance of re-uploading them 

Cheers Mate.

[NZSnowman]

Hi NZSnowman, just been going thru this thread and your doing amazing work.
Noticed all the Mediafire links are invalid (Invalid or Deleted File)  any chance of re-uploading them 

Cheers Mate.

Hi reaper7

Thanks for the kind words.

I only used Mediafire when I start this thread, now I upload all the images to Imageshack. I have deleted some of the older files from Mediafire, but to just check you are see the Imageshack images but can not see the Mediafire images?

[NZSnowman]

Fig. 1. Early war Direction Finder Antenna Loops. The DF Loop on the right is a 'left behind' if the FuMB-26 Tunis was remove.


Fig. 2. Update: Late war Direction Finder Antenna Loop

While reworking the bridge of U-1308 this morning, I noticed a very small error in the drawing of the late war design of the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. The change are base on war time photographs of U-249.


Fig. 1. Made several small changes to the late war design of the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. Changes are base on war time photographs.

[NZSnowman]

I am trying to position the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. There seen to bit a of variations (I think ). I am after any pictures of this area of the boat with the bridge shelf and the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. In the picture below of U-249, it looks like the Direction Finder Antenna Loop cut into the bridge shelf, which I thought was usually because there enough room to add it so it does not cut into the bridge shelf.


http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249PhotosPortland.htm

[NZSnowman]

The crew of U-1308 are very happy today as they just acquire there shining new FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U radar. They are eager to try it out as soon as possible

While reworking the bridge of U-1308 today, I noticed the plans of the FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U do not match the war time photographs, so I rework the drawing to match the photographs. The drawing is now base on U-3037, U-3045 & U-3008.


Fig. 1. The FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U without the netting.


Fig. 2. The FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U within its radar aerial housing.

[Rokket]

Wow! Looks very 3D!

[NZSnowman]

I am trying to position the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. There seen to bit a of variations (I think ). I am after any pictures of this area of the boat with the bridge shelf and the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. In the picture below of U-249, it looks like the Direction Finder Antenna Loop cut into the bridge shelf, which I thought was usually because there enough room to add it so it does not cut into the bridge shelf.


http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249PhotosPortland.htm

Here my best estimate of the position of the bridge shelf and the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. What do people think?

[Rokket]

that looks like it, I agree on angle, etc.

[wildspear]

Looks pretty good, I'm in no way an expert in the u-boats but it does look good the me.....thats my 2 coppers.

[NZSnowman]

Is the UZO mounting tower position slightly off the centreline of the U-boat to Port I have always believe it was position on the centreline of the U-boat, but I have two war time photographs of U-586 & U-765 and the pictures clearly show the UZO mounting tower slightly position off the centreline.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Dougie or anyone.

On Turm IV, we know that the upper and lower wintergarten deck was wood, was the bridge deck, wood or steel

Thanks, Simon.

[Rokket]

Hmmm...it's possible off ctr, because there could be other equip to make room for, and a few centimeters wouldn't make much difference, and yet, it would make so much sense to be dead ctr...

[NZSnowman]

Hmmm...it's possible off ctr, because there could be other equip to make room for, and a few centimeters wouldn't make much difference, and yet, it would make so much sense to be dead ctr...

After posting yesterday I was looking at more pictures of the UZO's and I could have a reason why they had it off central, because of the sky periscope

Maybe that why they keep missing with the torpedoes at the start of the war, the engineers forgot to say to the boats captains that the UZO was off centre 

[NZSnowman]

Atlantic Bow - Update

While adding the twelve circular vents above the torpedo doors to U-1308, I noticed that they did not fix the Type VIIC/41 very well. So I have another look at the bow shape. I feel that I made a mistake in my original drawing

http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5634;topicseen#msg5634

I believe now the alteration for the Atlantic Bow only affect the bow casting section, and does not affect the deck to № 91 like in my original drawing. If the alteration is only affecting the bow casting section, is makes sense as they would not need to modify any other part of the boat.


The pink outline is the Type VIIC and the green outline is the Atlantic Bow.


Above you can see the bow casting section. Is this the section they would had alternated for the Atlantic Bow (Source: Westwood).


Above you can see the outline of the Atlantic Bow (Source: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=21)

Here a major rework of my Type VIIC/41 bow. I would also like to thanks everyone who helped me, with answers to my questions, getting me feedback and giving me pictures

[Marko]

my goodness!!

that is some serious attention to details
was that internal ribbing identical to early VII/C?

Marko

[NZSnowman]

my goodness!!

that is some serious attention to details
was that internal ribbing identical to early VII/C?

Marko

Marko, the internal ribbing is the same for all Type VIIC's. In the drawing I have been able to match the correct space and placements of the rivets, base on the original rivets on U-995. In addition I have the correct space between the ribbing, almost all the space are at 500 mm however, there are several areas on the boat where this spacing changes.

[Rokket]

NZ - still beautiful!

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

Been away for a few days so just catching up on things. I presume the bridge deck on the VIIC/41s was wood, just like the earlier boats.

Good work on the Atlantic bow!

I don't know much about Type IXs but I think some or all of the UZOs on the IXs were offset by a good distance to port. If I recall correctly, on the Revell kit the UZO was placed slightly to the port. There was much discussion about this when Revell first released the kit. The consensus at the time was that Revell got this wrong on their model.

But I've seen a post war photo of U 995 in which the UZO does look very slightly offset to port in relation to the persicopes. I would have thought they would have wanted to keep the UZO central, given its function in aiming torpedoes? Could you email the U 586 and U 765 photos? They would be interesting to see.

I'm convinced that the earliest VIICs had the UZO in the centre. Photos of the tower of the VIIB U 86 are excellent as they permit clear views from the rear of the UZO and both periscopes. And the well known VIIB schematic has the UZO in the centre. Other boats like U 552 and U 564 it looks in the centre.

However, there is a VIID schematic where the UZO is to the port side...

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Dougie you got PM

[NZSnowman]

I just checked the Fritz K

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

Thanks for the images There is no doubt with that U 765 image, it is all the proof one needs for the UZO being port of centre on this boat. Note unusual features - the three movable windscreens and extended handrails near the top of the bulwark.

With the Koehl and Niestle plans, and the U 995 image, both being to port, then you have your answer for drawing your VIIC/41.

The VIIBs were dead centre and boats like U 552 and U 564 (I think) like they were centre too. I wonder when the change was made to port?

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

A 1

[Marko]

my gosh

i once tried to play SH3, and i got lost on my 19" laptop in all those functions, so im afraid to think what would happen to me on this monster set up:D

however, for drawing, this must be a heaven for you, i know that at my work i have 2x23 LEDs, and sometimes is still too small workspace

regards
Marko

[NZSnowman]

For the third seasons the large iron gates of the shipyard are locked for the winter and the boatyard is closed. Again the dockworkers look back over the work for the last six months on U-1308. They finish the ribbing, framing, pressure hull and casting of U-1308. They install the Direction Finder Antenna Loop, the FuMO-61 Hohentwiel U radar, the FuMB-9 Wanze and FuMB-35 Athos. They also nearly finish the piping under the decking, and putting in the torpedo tubes.

Again thanks everyone for your help, for the photographs and information with my drawing. I will still found a little bit of free time to check the boards over the next few months.

Wish you all the best for your summer or winter.
Happy modelling, Simon.

[Rokket]

good luck and we wait for the shipyard reopening!

[Pat]

Hi Dougie or anyone.

On Turm IV, we know that the upper and lower wintergarten deck was wood, was the bridge deck, wood or steel

Thanks, Simon.

On the Revell VII C/41, it's the turm IV and the bridge deck is most definitely depicted to be wood.  If you look closely you can see where the beams cross underneath the wood, which would of course been no more than a scaffolding on top of the actual CT of the PH.

It makes sense that the bridge deck would have been wood for the same reasons that they made the sea decks and wintergarten decks wood - it's MUCH less likely to be slippery when wet and it would be less apt to build up ice on northern patrols too.  Anybody who's ever been on the ocean REALLY appreciates wood decks, they're so much better than metal (or fibreglass) that even battleships had wood decks and the most traveled parts of destroyer decks were wood too.  Harder to build than steel, but better.

A lesser reason might be that a wood deck wasn't as heavy as a steel deck and so the U-boat wouldn't roll as much on the surface, and a lesser reason during wartime is that it would save on metal, but I doubt if that would make much difference over the amount of metal on a whole boat.

[NZSnowman]

I was wondering if anyone has any war time pictures of the electric motors on the Type VIIC

[Rokket]

could be a tall order!

[NZSnowman]

Below are two photographs of U-352, from National Geographic. In the top image you can see several large pipes in the saddle tank and outside the pressure hull. Dougie, Maciek or anyone, does anyone have any idea that the pipes are for?


Fig. 1. A close-up view of the saddle tank, where you can see several large pipes.



Fig. 2. A overview of the saddle tank and conning tower casting.

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Great find!

Dougie, Maciek or anyone, does anyone have any idea that the pipes are for?

With letters A and B I have marked the driving gears for flood valves of the the Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil Tank 4 port
The operating shafts are going through the pressure hull to the control room and are located here:





Similar at the stb side:


General arrangements:


(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate28.htm)




--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

The thick pipe marked with letter C I believe is a sounding pipe as marjked here:



(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate8A.htm)

The thinner pipe marked with letter D is hard to figure out.
I think it can be water compensating line:


(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10T.jpg

But according to the "FUEL OIL STOWAGE AND EQUIPMENT" chapter in the type IXC study (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm):

The compensating lines to the individual fuel ballast tanks run directly to the bottom of the tank while the line for the outboard normal fuel tanks leads into the small salt water niche (1.5% of fuel tank's volume) in the bottom of the tank; a line then leads from the top of the niche to the bottom of the fuel tank.

it looks as it is located to high.

It can be also exhaust gas blowing line:


(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm

but it in the turn looks located to low.

--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Maciek!!!

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Gentlemen

With letters A and B I have marked the driving gears for flood valves of the the Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil Tank 4 port

I have encountered interesting text related to the topic:

Es mu

[Rokket]

wow, love to hear about stuff like that. I can imagine trying not to lose the bolts at sea, or slide off the curve of the tank and into the sea... I'm reminded of the scene in the 1940s story A Christmas Stury. Little Ralphie helps his dad change a tire, at night, in the snow.  They put the nuts in the upside-down hub cap, but Ralphie bumps it, and the nuts go flying. Ralphie screams "FU...DGE!" and the older-Ralphie narrating says..."only that's not what I said..." he gets his mouth washed out with soap when they get home. As hard as it was recovering nuts in snow (the story is loosely based on the author's real life in the 40s) I guess there would be no chance of recovering the bolts in the ocean!

[iceonaboy]

Being a plant mechanic, I know exactly what he was going on about. That moment when you are spinning off a nut and it reaches the end of the thread earlier than you thought and in a second, its fallen away into the depths of an engine bay, or worse. Imagine if hed lost a bolt or nut. The whole subs integrity would have been comprimised. It might not be able to submerge because of leaks. Doesnt bear thinking about, the pressure on his shoulders.

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Gentlemen

You liked the previous story? You will love that one:

Eine weitere Begebenheit war mein Einstieg in die Tauchzelle 3. Bei welcher Fahrt es gewesen war, wei

[NZSnowman]

 

[NZSnowman]

Thanks everone for your help and pictures about the decking!

I was able to work out from all the pictures the hatches location etc... I was also able to find the pressure hull opening within U-995. So I had the start and end of the piping, I just have to best guess the bit in between. I place a bronze pipe end at the inlet. The piping on the left is for the fuel oil and the one on the right is for the Engine lubricating Oil.

I have not be able so far to workout the piping for the Steam heating system


Engine lubricating oil & fuel oil piping.

For the pressure hull openings for the fuel oil and the Engine lubricating Oil lines, I base it on the internal piping of U-995. Just today after looking at one of the pictures that SG posted I was able to confirm that I had corrected estimate there placements. You can clearly see the two pressure hull flanges.

[Rokket]

Maciek - another great piece of personal history!


NZ - and another great drawing. It's wonderful to see the photos turned into accurate plans, and must feel good!

[dbauer]

Hey Buddy!
How about a nice set of line drawings for a Type IX C ?

Regards,
Dan

[SG]

Excellent NZ, Excellent!

[NZSnowman]

Hey Buddy!
How about a nice set of line drawings for a Type IX C ?

Regards,
Dan

I would like to do a set of drawings for the Type IX's after I finish the Type VIIC/41

[dbauer]

Hey Buddy!
How about a nice set of line drawings for a Type IX C ?

Regards,
Dan

I would like to do a set of drawings for the Type IX's after I finish the Type VIIC/41

Hi Snowman!
That would be great! I am starting to do research for a full hull 1/72 Type IXC U-505.
Regards,
Dan

[NZSnowman]

Air Inlet Mast - UPDATE

While researching the Air Inlet Trucking Line, I noticed almost all models and drawing are incorrect. Most have believed that the trucking line come out at the bottom of the mast as in Fig. 2. However, as seen in the two wartime photographs below (Figs. 3 & 4) Fig. 1 is correct.


Fig. 1. The new piping layout for the Air Inlet.


Fig. 2. The commonly drawn or modelled piping layout for the Air Inlet.


Fig. 3. Source (Mark Krzysztalowicz - Encyclopedia okretow wojennych 47 - U-BOOT VII Vol 1).


Fig. 4. Source (The U-boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines; Author: Eberhard Rossler).

[Rokket]

hmmmm, very nice bit of detail catching. Nice dwgs too!

[Marcus Silva]

Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few 

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

Thanks, Simon

Here are a few of my drawing, they are all PDF

Conning Tower (6.5 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak
Engine Room (3.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z2ry2n1dmtq
Motor Room (1.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?l2mgzjmzy2n
Me & Poster (0.7 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zmmzzjyzimo&thumb=6 

Hi NZ, this post is quite a bit later but can you please if possible redownload the schematics, because it is now an INVALID FILE?
Thank you very much: Marcus Silva

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Dougie

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

I wonder, if you could tell me something about content of above book?
Are there photos which can help in the investigating the technical aspects of
U-Boots construction? Now I'm especially interested in the photos presenting
the forward torpedo room.

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

I was wondering if anyone has any war time pictures of the electric motors on the Type VIIC

[dougie47]

Hi Maciek,

The book "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" is really good, providing excellent photos of boats on the slipways in various stages of construction. But it doesn't have internal photos so I don't think it will help you with forward torpedo room.

The one book which does have internal VIIC photos is "U-Boat War" by Lothar Guenther Buchheim. This is full of photos he took on the famous U 96 patrol. It includes a few photos of the forward torpedo room.

Cheers,

Dougie

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Dougie

The book "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" is really good, providing excellent photos of boats on the slipways in various stages of construction. But it doesn't have internal photos so I don't think it will help you with forward torpedo room.

The one book which does have internal VIIC photos is "U-Boat War" by Lothar Guenther Buchheim. This is full of photos he took on the famous U 96 patrol. It includes a few photos of the forward torpedo room.

I have german edition of this book - "U-Boot-Krieg" - and it is really good.
Anyway, I'll try to get the book "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften".

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few 

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

Thanks, Simon

Here are a few of my drawing, they are all PDF

Conning Tower (6.5 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak
Engine Room (3.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z2ry2n1dmtq
Motor Room (1.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?l2mgzjmzy2n
Me & Poster (0.7 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zmmzzjyzimo&thumb=6 

Hi NZ, this post is quite a bit later but can you please if possible redownload the schematics, because it is now an INVALID FILE?
Thank you very much: Marcus Silva

Hi Marcus

Which drawing are you after?

Simon

[NZSnowman]

I was able to include a little bit more detail to my drawing today, thanks to Maciek. Ever little bit help.


Fig. 1 .  A close-up view of one of the three original electric motors serial plates found on the Electric motors.


Fig. 2 .  The Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor for Type VIIC

[Rokket]

That looks awesome!

[Greif]

Awesome work as always my friend.

Ernest

[NZSnowman]

A small update today for the outlets valves for Diving Tank 3. I found this picture from http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/eng/tower.htm with a wire net to protect against foreign bodies entering the tank.

Here two small updates for this post.

The vent in the picture (left) of U-249, I mislabel. It should read MB & RFO Tank 2 and 4, not MB Tank 3

So now for the drawing above the vents MB Tank 3 (left) & MB & RFO Tank 2 and 4 (right).

Another small update for this post, my original drawing (above) shows a wire net over MB Tank 3 (left), this vent shouldn't have a wire net over it.

[bracco_n]

Excuse my ignorance but what are those valves for?

[NZSnowman]

The MB Tank 3 (picture left) lets the air out for the main driving tank so the U-boat are dive.
Check out this image (Click on the Surface and Submerge buttons to the action) http://express.howstuffworks.com/express-submarine1.htm

The MB & RFO Tank 2 and 4 (picture right) let the air out for the tanks 2 & 4 so the U-boat are dive and trim itself.

When model making the Type VII

[Rokket]

I am STILL waiting for the full size boat to be built from these...

[NZSnowman]

Exhaust Gas Blowing System

The exhaust gas blow system used exhaust gas from the main engines to assist with blowing the tanks to raise the U-boat. A pipe extending forward from the main engine exhaust valves, to led forward to a manifold located over the control room. From the manifold, smaller pipes runs to 8 tanks around the u-boat. The eight associated valves in the manifold were operable from within the control room.


Fig. 1. A overview of the piping on the stern section of a Type VIIC with a schnorchel.


Fig. 2. A overview of the piping around the tower, the manifold can be seen lower right.


Fig. 3. Close-up view of the manifold and the 8 smaller pipes that led to the different tanks.


Fig. 4. Close-up view of piping about the air inlet for the main engines.

[Rokket]

WOW! You are now an expert in all this piping. And really nice shading on the center pipe, as it goes from blocked/covered ti more opne. Very well done.

[Nevermind4712]

I can say,..this Thread is a perfect Help for me and let me see a lot what i didnt know!:).

Really good Work!!!

(sorry about my english:\)

[Rokket]

That's what we're here for, Nevermind (and your English is fine). NZSnowman has done a brilliant job on these drawings - not just the dwgs themsleves, but translating photos to diagrams.

[NZSnowman]

Does anyone know if the German's keep the mounting for the forward deck gun (8.8cm) on the late war Type VIIC or on the Types VIIC'41? Or did they completely remove the whole mount under the deck?

Thanks, Simon. 

[Rokket]

hmmm, don't know. My gut is the mount stayed an just the gun lifted off. That's pretty standard for most of the removable stuff.

[NZSnowman]

I think you are right, that they leave the mounting under the deck. As the German's would never know for sure if they would not reuse it late in the war, if things got better.

[Greif]

I have been able to take a very close look at U505 and can confirm that, for that uboot at least, the mounting plate for the 10.5 cm cannon is still there.

Ernest

I think you are right, that they leave the mounting under the deck. As the German's would never know for sure if they would not reuse it late in the war, if things got better.

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Ernest, that is great news!

[SG]

Simon,
some of the boats seem to have retained it and some not. Am talking about a picture in which there's a line of 3 VIIC/41 plus a type IX moored at Wilhelmshaven in may 1945 and 3 other pictures (one of which of (?)U-1165) published on that Kagero/AJ press book you definitely must decide to get! . am going to send you all the pictures ASAP (2 days) so that you can examine them and come to a definitive conclusion (am talking of the ones on pages 129 and 162-4 of U-boot VII Vol.2 -I cant copy them electronically now, but if someone can send/post them sooner than i do it will be equally great-). In the beautiful artworks by W.Goralski (same book, pages 166-7) the uboot (incorrectly i suppose) sports a hatch instead of the gun mount..
Cheers
SG
  

[SG]

Ok there we go:



the 3 VIIC/41s + close-up of the central boat's possible gun mounting plate








keep up the great work Simon!

[Rokket]

looks great! crisp deck

[SG]

Hi Gentlemen, seems like the "individuality" of U-boots fooled me once again. I was wrong when i wrote that the artwork was incorrect (w many apologies to Mr Goralski ). A line of 3 VIIC/41 (U-1109, U1058 and U-901 From R to L) plus a late VIIC (U-278): U-1058 shows a hatch (?watertight container) located on the former gun mounting site. As always, there is no universal rule with U-boots, each boat had her own little modifications..

[NZSnowman]

Update: Torpedo Room


Fig. 1. A overview of the Torpedo Room.


Fig. 2. Blukhead between the Head & the Torpedo Room.


Fig. 3. The control arm for Opening/Closing of the Blow Buoyancy Tank.


Fig. 4. The control arm (in red) for Opening/Closing of the MB Tank 5; With the control arm (brown) for Opening/Closing of the Torpedo Door.


Fig. 5. Torpedo Tube.


Fig. 6. High Pressure Air Bottles.

[Greif]

Mmmmm - more uboot drawing porn!     Beautiful work Simon!!

Ernest

[NZSnowman]

The crew of U-1308 are truly happy today as they got two new 3.7 cm Flakzwilling M43U for their LM42U twin mounted flak guns. (Very few U-boats got the twin mounted 37 mm flak guns - U-boat know to have them U-1108 & U-889).

There was some talk within the crew about getting the LM43U the quadruple mounted flak guns (As a side note, the German did make a quadruple mounted 37 mm flak guns, but it do not come up to expectations, so they swap out the 37 mm for 20 mm). The LM43U quadruple mounted flak guns would have been able to put up 200 round per minute, firing a 0.73 kg round over 15.3 km. That would have help keep the planes away  

[NZSnowman]

I was wonder if anyone have any good pictures of the 3.7 cm mounted, on the U-boats?

Thanks, Simon.