Author Topic: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing  (Read 600676 times)

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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #400 on: 05 Mar , 2010, 12:56 »
I was reading Iron Coffins by Herbert A. Werner yesterday. The date is 1st June 1943 and U-230 is about to go to sea. Herbert state:


Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #401 on: 06 Mar , 2010, 16:52 »
Interesting point, NZ, but then, the Germans were looking at a lot of almost sci-fi stuff, maybe it wasn't very secret. I think it's also ironic that the Metox lead Allies directly to it!
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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #402 on: 06 Mar , 2010, 19:23 »
Yes lots of talk about secret sci-fi stuff!! Herbert talks a lot about a 'Secret Dead Ray'  ;D ;D

I have been doing a lot reading about Metox and I think the new thought about it is.

Yes the Metox did emitted a weak signal and the Allies could detection this sign. However, it now believe that the signal was so weak that it could not be used to track U-Boats. About this time the Allies started to hear rumor that the Germans were starting to think that the Allies were homing into the Metox. So the Allies started a rumor that they could detection the Metox sign. I think they did this by telling Bombing crews, know that a few of them would be shot down over Germany. As soon the Germans hear that Allies could detection the Metox sign they toll all U-boat to stop using them. This was just what the Allies wanted. Now the Allies could used there radar with good results.

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #403 on: 07 Mar , 2010, 17:35 »
Clever! Intrigue! Like the "man who never was" - Brits put fake invasion plans on a dead body, dumped in the ocean with plane debris, and let it be discovered in Spain. Great triple twists!
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Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #404 on: 07 Mar , 2010, 18:17 »
That's an interesting story about the Metoz and the bomber crews Snowman.  What year was that happening and was it ALL Allied bomber crews or just the ones of one nation?

I've been tossing around the idea of writing a book about what I know of my father's war, and it might be something that he was involved in.  He was shot down in Feb '44, over Germany and as a Pathfinder, he would have been involved in radar and radar detection and electronic navigation (Oboe) before it was common among the RAF crews.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #405 on: 07 Mar , 2010, 20:22 »
That's an interesting story about the Metoz and the bomber crews Snowman.  What year was that happening and was it ALL Allied bomber crews or just the ones of one nation?

I've been tossing around the idea of writing a book about what I know of my father's war, and it might be something that he was involved in.  He was shot down in Feb '44, over Germany and as a Pathfinder, he would have been involved in radar and radar detection and electronic navigation (Oboe) before it was common among the RAF crews.

Doenitz ordered all U-boats to cause using the Metox on 31 July 1943, So the Brits, may have started the rumor a month or a few weeks before this. Maybe the started rumor with several SOE (Special Operations Executive) members going to a flying crew bar and going around starting this rumor knowing that the SS or Gestapo would end up with the information if they crash. Or maybe they crash a plane into France and made it look like it could track Metox signals :-\ I just not sure how they started the rumor. Maybe, in the next 20 years they may release a document with all the secret in it ;D

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #406 on: 07 Mar , 2010, 20:32 »
Clever! Intrigue! Like the "man who never was" - Brits put fake invasion plans on a dead body, dumped in the ocean with plane debris, and let it be discovered in Spain. Great triple twists!

Yes, Operation Mincemeat. The Brits were very good at clever thing during the war

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #407 on: 08 Mar , 2010, 06:54 »
Hello
Ok, this is my first post, but in last Time i have many to read here.
Here ist a nice link for u-995 with Panorama

CT:
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/01_U-Boot_Turm_max.swf

Central
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/04_U-Boot-Zentrale_max.swf

Engine
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/02_U-Boot-Maschine_max.swf

Cu
Trader
« Last Edit: 08 Mar , 2010, 06:58 by Trader »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #408 on: 09 Mar , 2010, 00:56 »


Does anyone know how the aft torpedo door work? As the plans do not seem to match the real pictures.

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #409 on: 09 Mar , 2010, 01:28 »
Hello Simon


Does anyone know how the aft torpedo door work? As the plans do not seem to match the real pictures.

You mean rear door of the tube (interior door)?
There was a door supported by the hinge. On the rear edge/end of the tube was rotating ring with
some kind of bayonet screw, which locked closed door.
There is also a gear, to which can be attached a hand lever, and which is used to rotate a lcoking ring
(at about 5 hour ;) on the below image).



To the locking ring were also attached angle plate, which was used to interlock some operations.

See also photos on u-historia - you will see parts described above.

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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #410 on: 09 Mar , 2010, 01:40 »
Sorry, good point. I was talking about the outer door. On the plans it looks like it hinge at the top and the whole door left up

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #411 on: 10 Mar , 2010, 20:39 »


Does anyone know the diameter of the propeller shaft or main drive shaft?

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #412 on: 11 Mar , 2010, 01:08 »
Hello Simon

Does anyone know the diameter of the propeller shaft or main drive shaft?

Look at
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm
Paragraph "Main Mounting"

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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #413 on: 11 Mar , 2010, 01:41 »
Thanks, Maciek. The answer was 224 mm.

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #414 on: 12 Mar , 2010, 00:34 »
Not really related, but a Maciek just started at my work! That's not you is it? ;)
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #415 on: 12 Mar , 2010, 13:25 »
Quote
You mean rear door of the tube (interior door)?
There was a door supported by the hinge. On the rear edge/end of the tube was rotating ring with
some kind of bayonet screw, which locked closed door.
There is also a gear, to which can be attached a hand lever, and which is used to rotate a lcoking ring

Hi Maciek,

Where did you find that photo?
It's a good shot.

The "interior door" was a moving launching piston which kept the pressurized air inside the boat.
Invisible or bubble less launching system.

Timo

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #416 on: 12 Mar , 2010, 17:39 »
Hello Timo

Where did you find that photo?
It's a good shot.

The photo is a part of British Report on captured U-570 (later HMS Graph)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570.htm

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Maciek

Offline dougie47

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #417 on: 17 Mar , 2010, 15:31 »
Hello gents,

I've been meaning to post recently but have not quite found the time. Pat, I was very interested to hear your discussion on the sacrificial anodes and wonder if I might ask you a question.



The above photo is of U 99 and can be found on page 25 in Steve Wiper's excellent pictorial book "Kriegsmarine Type VII U-Boats". Do you see the two plates ahead of the prop? Are they the sacrificial anodes? Originally I thought they weren't the correct size but I would be interested to hear your opinion.

I've also seen these in the same position on U 821.

Cheers,

Dougie

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #418 on: 17 Mar , 2010, 17:56 »
Dougie, I'm assuming you mean the two squarish plates, one on either side of the prop shaft on the underside of the arm that supports the aft dive plane?

If so, then I think that yes, those are quite possibly sacrificial anodes.  They're about the right size for something as big as a U-boat, and around the stern is where I'd most expect to see them, especially near the propellors and rudders because it's there that you'd find most of the dissimilar metals (bronze - steel props, stainless steel shafts, hinges and bearings for the dvie planes and rudders, etc.)

The squares in your picture aren't in the same location, nor are they the same size and shape in the picture I'd seen before, but like I said, shape isn't definitive, since most boat builders will use whatever is available.  Milspecs of the day would just call for "anodes" and not specify what manufacturer or model they have to be, just that they provide enough zinc to do the job.  And when a boat came in for refit, they'd replace old anodes with whatever was handy too.

Location isn't necessarily going to be the same on each boat either, just that they have to have all the sensitive areas protected, and each builder could make his own deceision as to where.  It might even change from one boat to the next or from one refit to the next.

The main thing is that they have to be there, not what they look like.

There'd be a minimum of one for each propellor and one for each rudder, and there could be as many as two for each I think.

Offline Pepper-mint

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #419 on: 18 Mar , 2010, 03:57 »
Hello NZSnowman,

Amazing work in any point of view ; highly instructive and helpful. Your research process is very interesting.
I like and admire your work, objectively...
Thank you.

Cheers,
Pepper-mint.
On the W.bench :
Books, pics, drawings, styrene, dreams and :

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #420 on: 18 Mar , 2010, 15:30 »
Dougie, I'm trying to get one of the pictures of the anodes scanned in and as soon as I can, I'll try and either post them here or get them to you another way.

I showed the picture to another sailor here who's going to scan it for me and was asked immediately if those were anodes, so I'm sure that's what they must be.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #421 on: 04 Apr , 2010, 22:36 »
Does anyone have and seen a picture of the High pressure air bottles under the deck ???

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #422 on: 04 Apr , 2010, 23:11 »
only in Gatos
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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #423 on: 04 Apr , 2010, 23:20 »
only in Gatos

That may be the best I will get :( Its one of them things that was never photograph. Where would I start looking for pictures of the high pressure air bottles for the Gatos?

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #424 on: 05 Apr , 2010, 03:01 »
I have seen hp air flask on type XXI photos.

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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #425 on: 05 Apr , 2010, 20:37 »
I have seen hp air flask on type XXI photos.

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Hi Maciek

Can you remember where you saw the photos? Its likely that they are the same or very similar :) :) :)

Offline wildspear

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #426 on: 05 Apr , 2010, 21:04 »



I took this shot of the USS Silversides (Gato).

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #427 on: 05 Apr , 2010, 21:32 »
Thanks Wildspear!! :) :) Very useful it show me the shape of the bottles and a Pressure hull opening (just right of the bottles on the left). Thanks  :) :) 

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #428 on: 05 Apr , 2010, 23:24 »
Here my best guess so far of the bottles of group 2. Top view & Side view.


High pressure air bottles - Group 2

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #429 on: 06 Apr , 2010, 02:28 »
Hello Simon

I read your question once again and realized I misunderstood it - "under deck" as internal.

Here is the photo of machine room section of the type XXI boat.
Visible in background flask is (I suppose) Diesel engine starting flask.

Source - "Vom Original zum Modell - Uboottyp XXI"

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #430 on: 08 Apr , 2010, 21:59 »
Does the vent located above the line of vents, just forward of the exhaust outlet, have a reason?

« Last Edit: 08 Apr , 2010, 22:57 by NZSnowman »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #431 on: 08 Apr , 2010, 22:56 »
Many thanks to eveyone for the information on the bridge. I am going to work on this over the weekend  :)

How did the voice pipe work ??? I can not imagine the voice pipe went through the pressure hull.

Good question on the voice pipe, what a terrible hull penetration! Even if you relied on outside pressure keeping a cap shut, scary [insert 3 stooges "nnnnnaaaaaaah" scary noise here]

Hi Wink

It looks like they did penetration the hull :o but they did put in 3 valves in the voice pipe between the bridge to Control Room ;D

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate22.htm

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #432 on: 09 Apr , 2010, 08:09 »
Hello Simon,

I am not certain, but I believe that one vent forward of the exhaust outlet and above the row of vents may be for a foot / hand hold intended for boarding the boat at this location.  Some photos and drawing that include the harbour railings show two closely spaced stanchions on the deck at this point in the hull.  Also, somewhere I remember this being mentioned as a boarding station - sorry can't recall the reference.  The David Westwood book has a good diagram showing this on page 26/27.  I hope this helps you!

Cheers,

Bill

Offline dougie47

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #433 on: 10 Apr , 2010, 12:44 »
Hi gents,

I'd say your theory about a foot/hand hold is very plausible, Bill. Do you think this is correct, Simon?

Cheers,

Dougie 

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #434 on: 10 Apr , 2010, 19:13 »
NZ - thanks for that, interesting!

Simon/Bill,
also interesting! Gatos had a "sea ladder" - cutouts, sometimes in a zig-zag pattern. I'm pretty sure they had a "foot plate" or stair tread welded inside to place your foot, and would have had to be reinforced with angle brackets because that hull casing - in Gatos anyway - was tissue thin and wouldn't take weight. Yes, 2nd pic, shows a TINY "L" lip welded inside



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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #435 on: 11 Apr , 2010, 02:48 »
I am not to sure about a foot/hand hold :-\, it seem to be in a funny position but what would be a good position. I will check all my books and pictures over the next couple of days and see if I found anything.

I had imagine a foot/hand hold would be smaller like on the Gatos and I would think if a Type VII

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #436 on: 11 Apr , 2010, 03:32 »
Interesting point, NZ, but then, the Germans were looking at a lot of almost sci-fi stuff, maybe it wasn't very secret. I think it's also ironic that the Metox lead Allies directly to it!

Yes lots of talk about secret sci-fi stuff!! Herbert talks a lot about a 'Secret Dead Ray'  ;D ;D

I have been doing a lot reading about Metox and I think the new thought about it is.

Yes the Metox did emitted a weak signal and the Allies could detection this sign. However, it now believe that the signal was so weak that it could not be used to track U-Boats. About this time the Allies started to hear rumor that the Germans were starting to think that the Allies were homing into the Metox. So the Allies started a rumor that they could detection the Metox sign. I think they did this by telling Bombing crews, know that a few of them would be shot down over Germany. As soon the Germans hear that Allies could detection the Metox sign they toll all U-boat to stop using them. This was just what the Allies wanted. Now the Allies could used there radar with good results.

Clever! Intrigue! Like the "man who never was" - Brits put fake invasion plans on a dead body, dumped in the ocean with plane debris, and let it be discovered in Spain. Great triple twists!

That's an interesting story about the Metoz and the bomber crews Snowman.  What year was that happening and was it ALL Allied bomber crews or just the ones of one nation?

I've been tossing around the idea of writing a book about what I know of my father's war, and it might be something that he was involved in.  He was shot down in Feb '44, over Germany and as a Pathfinder, he would have been involved in radar and radar detection and electronic navigation (Oboe) before it was common among the RAF crews.

Doenitz ordered all U-boats to cause using the Metox on 31 July 1943, So the Brits, may have started the rumor a month or a few weeks before this. Maybe the started rumor with several SOE (Special Operations Executive) members going to a flying crew bar and going around starting this rumor knowing that the SS or Gestapo would end up with the information if they crash. Or maybe they crash a plane into France and made it look like it could track Metox signals :-\ I just not sure how they started the rumor. Maybe, in the next 20 years they may release a document with all the secret in it ;D

Here are little more information (and maybe correct) about the Metox that lead Allies directly to it. I just read this in Black May: Allies Defeat of German U-Boats

The Naxos-U replaced an interim G.S.R. call Hagenuk-Wellenzeiger, or Wanze, the sole virtue of which was that it emitted low levels of radiation. Discovering that the old Metox emitted high levels, BdU feared that Allied aircraft were homing on these emission. It was confirmed in that fear when a RAF prisoner at the German interrogation center Oberursal told his questioners that that was the means used by Coastal aircraft to find U-Boats. Thought untrue, the POW's lie and the resulting 'radiation scare' caused D

Offline Greif

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #437 on: 11 Apr , 2010, 04:05 »
Hi Simon, it was true that Metox emissions acting as a homing device for aircraft to zero in on uboats.  As an aside, RAF Bomber Command had a radar warning reciever called "Monica" that did exactly the same thing, allowing German nightfighters to home in on it's emissions.  Radar was new technology during WWII, and alot was not understood about it's capabilities and vunerabilities.  The allies did a much better job unraveling radar's mysteries then the Germans during the war and were thus able to get alot more effective use from radar.

Ernest

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #438 on: 11 Apr , 2010, 12:32 »
Thanks Ernest for formation! I do not know about the RAF Bomber Command system "Monica", I will have a search on the net for it  :) :)

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #439 on: 12 Apr , 2010, 16:14 »
I am not to sure about a foot/hand hold :-\, it seem to be in a funny position but what would be a good position. I will check all my books and pictures over the next couple of days and see if I found anything.

I had imagine a foot/hand hold would be smaller like on the Gatos and I would think if a Type VII

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #440 on: 13 Apr , 2010, 13:46 »
Hello!

I think the Type IX boats had foot/hand holes similar to the Gatos.  These are seen in many photos of various IX boats such as this:



Look just beneath the feet of the crewman on the gangplank.

Cheers,

Bill

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #441 on: 13 Apr , 2010, 14:10 »
Hello Again!

This photo might help demonstrate what I mentioned in a previous post about the stanchions.  It shows U-90 with all of the harbour railings/stanchions in place (probably commissioning day).  The single raised vent is located immediately below the two closely spaced stanchions.  These type of stanchions are commonly used at boarding locations which lead me to think the vent was a foot / hand hole used to board at this location. 



I suppose this vent could have a different purpose, but it seems like a foot / hand hole.  Could it be something else?

Cheers,

Bill




Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #442 on: 13 Apr , 2010, 22:13 »
Hi Bill

Its look like you are right. Its does look like a foot hole! I checked serveral of my plans and there seen nothing under the deck that needs an extra flood hole.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #443 on: 13 Apr , 2010, 22:37 »
A update of the Blowing of exhaust gases piping system for the ballast tanks.


Fig. 1. The old drawing base on The Type VII U-Boat by David Westwood.


Fig. 2. New drawing base on war time photographs.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #444 on: 14 Apr , 2010, 18:16 »
Finish my new house on Monday :) :) :) and started moving in yesterdays. Finally now able to start setting up my office and computers. Having lots of fun now with the drawing. Still have to either buy or make myself a nice computer desk and unpack all my u-boat books.   


Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #445 on: 14 Apr , 2010, 21:31 »
Hi Dougie

While doing your research for your 'Type VII Free-Flooding Vent Patterns' did you come across any real measurement for the size of the flood holes?

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #446 on: 15 Apr , 2010, 02:59 »
nice to get settled!
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Offline dougie47

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #447 on: 16 Apr , 2010, 12:23 »
Hi Simon,

Nice to see you are getting settled in your new home. I think I wrote the original version of the vents pattern article about six years ago. It was written specifically with modellers of the (then) new Revell 1/72nd VIIC. At the time nobody other than myself seemed too bothered about the vent patterns. So I stuck to researching the patterns rather than the holes themselves.

Therefore I haven't actually measured the holes themselves. I would guess though, with multiple yards making the boats, that there might be some variations in the sizes between batches?

It is great to see talented researchers such as yourself who are studying the Type VIIC in real detail. Keep up the good work!

Cheers,

Dougie 

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #448 on: 16 Apr , 2010, 13:16 »
Thanks for the information Dougie.

I really been enjoy the research side of my drawing!!! I have learn some much over the last 2 years while doing this drawing. I feel I could now name all the pipes in the engine room ;D

I think you are right about variations in the sizes between batches and likely even ship yards. At lase I have a great base to work from, as I know that the framing are space 500mm apart in this area. There would only be

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #449 on: 17 Apr , 2010, 15:29 »
Stern Flood Holes

Using an very clear and good photo, I was able to get a very good measurement of the stern Flood holes. I belive they are 400mm long and 120mm high (5.6mm x 1.7mm at 1:72 scale). I also workout the height between the double Flood Holes at 250mm (3.5mm).


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #450 on: 17 Apr , 2010, 15:44 »
Congratulation for your promotion Admiral Simon!  ;D

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #451 on: 17 Apr , 2010, 16:19 »
Congratulation for your promotion Admiral Simon!  ;D

Thanks ;D

Maybe I should go see my boss and ask for a pay rise, to help pay for the mortgage on the new house.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #452 on: 17 Apr , 2010, 18:39 »
That would be interesting to see...
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #453 on: 20 Apr , 2010, 03:38 »
Does anyone know the diameter of the Torpedos tube ???

I am thinking around 561mm = (533mm + 2 x (the steel looks like 12mm + 2mm free ride))

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #454 on: 21 Apr , 2010, 13:01 »
Hi Simon,

Unfortunately I don

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #455 on: 21 Apr , 2010, 13:35 »
Hi Simon,

Unfortunately I don

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #456 on: 21 Apr , 2010, 18:50 »
Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few  :)

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

After 15 months I just found a answer to my very first question on this forum. I just found 'Mark 1' in a old picture of U-995 from the 60's  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

It is located just stern of the last flood hole near the exhaust outlet. As all of the upper deck section has been replace on U-995 that is why I did not found it.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #457 on: 22 Apr , 2010, 03:26 »
Hello Timo

But here is an image from CV 707 / Type IIA torpedo tube manual.
(T21722_21_2b Military Archives in Finnish National Archives)

Are the Finnish National Archives online accessible?

--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #458 on: 22 Apr , 2010, 12:31 »
Hi Maciek,

Digitization is going on in Finnish National Archives.
But the work will take lots of time.

For example war diaries are already in digital form.
It will take years before we can watch u-boat plans in internet.  :-[

I

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #459 on: 22 Apr , 2010, 12:43 »
Digitization is going on in Finnish National Archives.
But the work will take lots of time.

For example war diaries are already in digital form.
It will take years before we can watch u-boat plans in internet.  :-[

I

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #460 on: 22 Apr , 2010, 13:08 »
Digitization is going on in Finnish National Archives.
But the work will take lots of time.

For example war diaries are already in digital form.
It will take years before we can watch u-boat plans in internet.  :-[

I

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #461 on: 23 Apr , 2010, 02:42 »
Hi All

I have two plans that illustrate the aft Battery Hatch, but they are both in different location :( Does anyone know the correct location for the aft Battery Hatch?


Fig. 1. Battery Hatch location between frame number 41 and 42.


Fig. 2. Battery Hatch location between frame number 44 and 45.

Thanks, Simon

Answered on own question again :) That two question in two days, I’m on a roll  ;D ;D

After doing a little more research on why the move the aft battery hatch. They move it for the 3.7cm FlaK or quadruple 2cm L38/43 U Flak gun support for the lower Wintergraten.

I would believe is would be for all Type VIIC/41 or any other Type VIIC that had a lower Wintergraten with these big guns on.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #462 on: 24 Apr , 2010, 02:42 »
Hi All

Here is a small way to thanks all the people who have helped me over the last two years with my drawing.

I have prepared a 1:24 scale poster of a Type VIIC engine room. The poster is primly to be printer at A3 size, nevertheless, as the drawing is in a PDF format (12MB) it is possible to print it at any page size, without any lost of detail.

I welcome any feed back, mistakes etc

Trader

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #463 on: 24 Apr , 2010, 03:10 »
Hello Simon
Looks very great. Thank you

Cu
Dirk

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #464 on: 24 Apr , 2010, 03:16 »
Welcome Trader!
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #465 on: 25 Apr , 2010, 04:04 »
Hi Dougie

Just wanting to confirm about the flood vents in the central drainage area:

That all late war Type VIIC

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #466 on: 25 Apr , 2010, 04:26 »
Hi Simon,

Yes, I think so on both counts. I should point out that when I wrote the vent pattern article a while back I had even less late war photos than now. So while I think that late war boats had the evenly spaced pattern, I can't be certain every boat was build like this. So many boats, so many yards... :)

Thank for your excellent engine room drawing. I dare say that drawing has more than a few objects in Coreldraw!

Cheers,

Dougie

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #467 on: 25 Apr , 2010, 15:50 »
Thank for your excellent engine room drawing. I dare say that drawing has more than a few objects in Coreldraw!

Yes, just under 29,000 now, and 170,000 for the main drawing  ;D

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #469 on: 26 Apr , 2010, 16:19 »
Does anyone know how the ammunition for the 3.7cm or 2cm was store in the ammunition container? Was it in ammunition boxes or in ammunition clips?

Thanks, Simon

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #470 on: 26 Apr , 2010, 19:33 »
I was looking for pictures of the 3.7cm ammunition on the web this morning and I am thinking that the Germans stored the ammunition in metal ammunition boxes like in (Fig. 1) and in wooden ammunition boxes in the main magazine (Fig. 2).

Any thoughts on this?


Fig. 1. 2cm Flak 30/38 magazine container.


Fig. 2. 2cm ammunition box. All 2cm ammunition came in 100

Trader

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #471 on: 27 Apr , 2010, 04:57 »
Hello Simon
Here is a link for many Boxes http://wehrmachts.kisten.free.fr/
« Last Edit: 27 Apr , 2010, 11:07 by Trader »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #472 on: 27 Apr , 2010, 12:13 »
Hello Simon
Here is a link for many Boxes http://wehrmachts.kisten.free.fr/


Thanks!!! Will be very useful for my drawing.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #473 on: 27 Apr , 2010, 13:29 »
Great work and a big thank you Simon!  I only wish I had had the drawing when I was build my Eingine Room interior.  It is much better then most of the photos I had for reference.  Again, thank you and fantastic work.

Ernest

Hi All

Here is a small way to thanks all the people who have helped me over the last two years with my drawing.

I have prepared a 1:24 scale poster of a Type VIIC engine room. The poster is primly to be printer at A3 size, nevertheless, as the drawing is in a PDF format (12MB) it is possible to print it at any page size, without any lost of detail.

I welcome any feed back, mistakes etc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #474 on: 28 Apr , 2010, 06:23 »
Yes, that's the pic I'd lost Snowman.  Thanks.

The rail pic also proves that I need to make a ship's bell too.  But that raises a question.

Does anybody know if all U-boats had a bell?  And if so, did they remove it when on patrol and that would account for pictures without a bell in evidence?

It seems to me that if a boat was diving that the bell might make a noise and give it away to Sonar/ASDIC listeners.  (Most ship's bells are firmly fixed and it's the clapper that moves by pulling a cord.  The clapper wouldn't move in the open air but might when affected by denser water flow.)

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #475 on: 30 Apr , 2010, 10:53 »
Hi pat,

The bell was sometimes seen on pre-war photos (the most likely time to see in would be during commisssioning).

Even in port it isn't usually seen in wartime shots, though you may find a few exceptions.

Cheers,

Dougie

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #476 on: 02 May , 2010, 16:51 »
Here a view rarely seen in U-Boat, a cross-section of a Turn 5 Wintergarten. After doing as much research on this Wintergarten style here are two drawings. The first drawing is a view of all the internal framing, the second drawing includes the 2cm and 3.7cm ammunition containers, the upper and lower gun support, and the Life Raft Container.


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #477 on: 05 May , 2010, 16:29 »
There a row of double rivets just fore of the rudder (in red). As the upper deck of U-995 was replace I am unsure how far to take it.

I was wondering that others think as to how far I should take this row, either to the 'top of the deck' or to the other row of 'double rivets' (in blue which is also missing on U-995)?


Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #478 on: 06 May , 2010, 03:04 »
Hi Simon,
I don't know the answer, but I think the "double bubble row" is a part of the aft torpedo tube frame.
Timo

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #479 on: 06 May , 2010, 05:32 »
If so,
I wouldn't take it no further than to the other row of 'double rivets'.

Quote
I was wondering that others think as to how far I should take this row, either to the 'top of the deck' or to the other row of 'double rivets' (in blue which is also missing on U-995)?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #480 on: 13 May , 2010, 17:48 »
Hello Simon,
first at all great work and thanks for sharing. I wish I found this site earlyer  ;).
Maybe you can use this infomation below:
- at the first drawings I saw you had only 16 GHG receiver for the VIIC41 should be 24 GHG receiver each side (the early VIIC was only 11 each side)
- The S Ger

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #481 on: 13 May , 2010, 19:44 »
Hi Seewolf

Welcome aboard! Thanks for the kind words about my drawings. No worrys about your english; it is better than my german ;D

- at the first drawings I saw you had only 16 GHG receiver for the VIIC41 should be 24 GHG receiver each side (the early VIIC was only 11 each side)

Thanks, I do not know this. Now after this, looking at my plans, pictures and research I see you are right  :)

- The S Ger

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #482 on: 14 May , 2010, 03:22 »
Welcome Seewolf, and thanks for posting the excellent info. Also love your avatar, looks a bit like U 557's emblem...?
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #483 on: 14 May , 2010, 17:58 »
Hello gentelman thanks for the welcome,
Simon if I can help you with german labels or some technik stuff no problem, If I know it off course. Since good a half year I am working on researche for german WWII Subs.
Rokket the embleme is from U-129 it is a type IX/C U-Boot. U-557 (Type VII/C) had a red lion too with an anchor but they look nearly simulare they are both, I guees, old german town insignia I don`t know exact how old this insignia is but could be from the middleage.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #484 on: 17 May , 2010, 16:07 »
In Anatomy of the Ship - The Type VII U-Boat on Page 73. Westwood suggest these drainage holes (No. 9 & 18) were added to Type VIIC/41's. I have never seen these drainage holes on any Type VII's.

Does anyone know if this is correct or have any comments on these drainage holes. Thanks, Simon.


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #485 on: 18 May , 2010, 17:10 »
Below are 3 different outlines of the bows for the Type VIIC

Seewolf

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #486 on: 18 May , 2010, 17:33 »
Hello Simon,
regarding the drainage holes (No. 9 & 18), I don`t remember drydock pics from VIIC/41, but the Laboe Boot U-995 did not have this drainage holes. Did Westwood wrote what time they was added.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #487 on: 18 May , 2010, 18:22 »
Hello Simon,
regarding the drainage holes (No. 9 & 18), I don`t remember drydock pics from VIIC/41, but the Laboe Boot U-995 did not have this drainage holes. Did Westwood wrote what time they was added.

Westwood say 'stern general arranments' also he has them on his Type VIIF, VIID, U-995 & late war VIIC's elevation drawing :o I have never seen them on U-995, not even in all the pictures from the 70's. Like I said before, I never seen these hole on any Type VII's :-\ 

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #488 on: 18 May , 2010, 23:59 »
The French dock workers are extremely happy today as the keel for U-1308 was laid and finish today :) :) this include all 1,461 rivets ;D ;D


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #489 on: 19 May , 2010, 15:26 »
Hi Simon,

Congrats to the French dock workers, they must be good at riveting by now!

Your Atlantic bow question is a good one, though difficult to resolve with any level of certainty. I wouldn't be surprised if the Atlantic bow varied between shipyards? I don't think I could tell the difference between tapering back to 79 or 104 using period photos. My guess - and it is only a guess - for VIIC/41s would be tapering back to 79. 

Regarding the vents at the stern in Westwood's VIIC/41 plan, I've never seen them on any VIIC or VIIC/41 photo. Notice that he also has these vents on the VIID and VIIF plans. I wonder if they originated from a VIID or VIIF plan and Westwood incorrectly applied them to his VIIC/41 profile?  I haven't seen this area of a VIIF (or for that matter a VIID) so it may be possible these vents were on VIIFs?

Cheers,

Dougie

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #490 on: 19 May , 2010, 17:39 »
Hi Simon,

Congrats to the French dock workers, they must be good at riveting by now!

Your Atlantic bow question is a good one, though difficult to resolve with any level of certainty. I wouldn't be surprised if the Atlantic bow varied between shipyards? I don't think I could tell the difference between tapering back to 79 or 104 using period photos. My guess - and it is only a guess - for VIIC/41s would be tapering back to 79. 

Regarding the vents at the stern in Westwood's VIIC/41 plan, I've never seen them on any VIIC or VIIC/41 photo. Notice that he also has these vents on the VIID and VIIF plans. I wonder if they originated from a VIID or VIIF plan and Westwood incorrectly applied them to his VIIC/41 profile?  I haven't seen this area of a VIIF (or for that matter a VIID) so it may be possible these vents were on VIIFs?

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie for your help again  :) :)

I have never seen any original Type VIIC/41 plans, all the ones I have are for VIIC. Maybe it will be one of them things we will never give the answer until we found a set Type VIIC/41 deck plans. Nevertheless, you make a very point about varied between shipyards.

I have a set of plans for the Type VIID, I will check this out later, although I think is very unlikely as I believe the stern and bow sections are identical between the VIID/F and VIIC.

Yes, the French dock workers are good riveter now ;D ;D That not counting the 4000 plus rivets I added for the stern section the another day ;D ;D Make you wonder how many rivets are on U-Boat :o

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #491 on: 20 May , 2010, 15:58 »
Hello Simon,
great job on the rivets!!! Regarding the drainage holes I guess Dougie had the solution. I have not much info about the VIIF but I start a little bit resarch at the VIID (have one at the bench  ;D). The VIID  I can say for sure U-217 had additional openings under the waterline at the bow section, if U-217 had these openings I gess also the other VIID had these openings and if they make additional openings under the waterline at the bow, why not at the stern .... of course it is guessing. They was all launched from 24.07.1941 till 05.12.1941 all builded from Germaniawerft, Kiel. The VIIF was also launched from Germaniawerft but later between 13.03.1943 and 08.05.1943.
Here i found a site withe wreck pics from U-214 type VIID, http://www.periscopepublishing.com/U214%20exhibition.htm , but off course the aft section is not present  :P this guys make also some videos from the wreck but my internet conection is to slow  :'(  It is now a little bit off topic regarding the drainage holes but interesting the VIID was launched with wind-sheeld and breakwater without net-cutter and at least U-214 was fitted with S-Ger

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #492 on: 20 May , 2010, 20:33 »
Hello Simon,
great job on the rivets!!! Regarding the drainage holes I guess Dougie had the solution. I have not much info about the VIIF but I start a little bit resarch at the VIID (have one at the bench  ;D). The VIID  I can say for sure U-217 had additional openings under the waterline at the bow section, if U-217 had these openings I gess also the other VIID had these openings and if they make additional openings under the waterline at the bow, why not at the stern .... of course it is guessing. They was all launched from 24.07.1941 till 05.12.1941 all builded from Germaniawerft, Kiel. The VIIF was also launched from Germaniawerft but later between 13.03.1943 and 08.05.1943.

You and Dougie could be right about the extra drainage holes in the bow and stern for the Type VII/D & F, as I think I just remember reading something about the Type VII/D & F having larger trim and diving tanks because there boats are longer. Maybe they need additional drainage holes to let the sea water in & out faster.

Sorry with the bow.... I was trying to find out what time and wich boat they started to use the Atlantic bow..... for the moment I give it up to find out  ::) but I will be on it in the end of this year, I will visit the U-Boot archive in my hometown, hope to find out several stuff there. Maybe I should open a thread, for questions I can try to find out there ?

I think this would be a great idea, if you have the time and energy to do it. I have a few questions I love to ask. I am sure I can think of more later  ;D

* Did U-1308 have a Balconger

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #493 on: 21 May , 2010, 14:04 »
Hi Simon,

Quote
Seewolf, was the SU-Apparat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #494 on: 22 May , 2010, 02:57 »
Way back in May of last year a few of as were having a discussion about what kind of repeaters are on the bridge Was it a Rudder telegraph not a Engine telegraph? While doing some research on the Conning tower wiring system today, I came across these 3 bits of information in the

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #495 on: 22 May , 2010, 03:09 »
The stern Navigation light and Stern light on the Conning tower, are white?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #496 on: 22 May , 2010, 03:56 »
Inside the Conning tower, ivory colour?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #497 on: 22 May , 2010, 17:49 »
I think it started as white, but dirt and such may make it stained and off colour
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #498 on: 22 May , 2010, 18:23 »
Hi Simon,

My apologies for my delay in replying, I have been on paternity leave recently and have had no spare time. Below are a few shots of the late UZO. They aren't great - as always we need better resources. Your house looks brilliant, as do your posters on the wall.





Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

Got around to drawing the late war UZO. I also update the binoculars to a Zeiss UDF 7x50 and modernize the UZO support column and added a firing release lever.

Thanks again for the pictures.


« Last Edit: 23 May , 2010, 15:09 by NZSnowman »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #499 on: 23 May , 2010, 15:32 »
From my previous post about the late war UZO you can see in my drawing the power cable exiting out the bottom of the UZO support column. In the picture below you can see this cable entering the Conning tower (Green Arrow). If you look at all the cable openings in the Conning tower they all have small valve on them (Red Arrows).  Why have valve ???

Is it to drain water out of the opening ??? or to pressure the seals with high air pressure ??? or to add oil ??? Does anyone know or have any commons ???


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #500 on: 24 May , 2010, 15:33 »
Has anyone seen any measurement for the front outer torpedo doors for the Type VIIC's?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #501 on: 26 May , 2010, 17:48 »
I am adding the Style 6 of Diesel Exhaust Outlets to my drawing. Which picture do poeple think looks more like 'German engineering' A or B? http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=280.0


Pic. A


Pic. B

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #502 on: 27 May , 2010, 02:12 »
A for my vote. B makes the most sense, at least from a "off the shelf/standard/minimal effort way, nothing too custom): straight/90 elbow/slight custom. BUT, I don't feel the KM was into "easy and standard" at first...but others will know more than me!
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #503 on: 29 May , 2010, 14:48 »
From my previous post about the late war UZO you can see in my drawing the power cable exiting out the bottom of the UZO support column. In the picture below you can see this cable entering the Conning tower (Green Arrow). If you look at all the cable openings in the Conning tower they all have small valve on them (Red Arrows).  Why have valve ???

Is it to drain water out of the opening ??? or to pressure the seals with high air pressure ??? or to add oil ??? Does anyone know or have any commons ???



Sorry it took so long to answer, but as usual, computer problems and it took until I could get to a different computer to view the picture that you were talking about.

The valve is a safety valve, to be able able to shut off the through-hull opening if it leaks.

EVERY boat, or at least every surface boat I've been on, has such a valve wherever there's an opening (through hull) to the outside water.  Since it's stndard, and in fact mandated by regulations, for such a shut offvalve for surface boats, I can't imagine that a submarine, designed to dive down a hundred meters or more, wouldn't also have such a valve.

The reason why it's a ball valve, instead of a simpler and cheaper gate valve, is so that it can be shut off with one quick 1/4 turn of the wrist in an emergency.

Not sure how they work with a cable running through them, but that would be the reason. 

If you watch any movies where a sub is being depth charged, you'll see whenever the boat springs a leak at any of the interior pipes or through hulls, the crew goes around and shuts off valves that the pipe leads from.  The leak may not always be where the pipe leads through the hull, but there will always be a valve somehwere that shuts it off from the outside.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #504 on: 29 May , 2010, 15:28 »
Thanks, Pat for your reply :) :)

I did not noted they are all ball valves, but make sense! However, one thing I can not get my head around is, if there no valve on a through-hull opening would that not mean one less place to leaks from ???

I wonder if the small pipes to each valve are for high pressure air to stop water coming in, in a full emergency. If your boat is sinking fast it better to have a few bubblers on the surface than be at the bottom at 4000m. What your thought on this Pat ???
« Last Edit: 29 May , 2010, 16:49 by NZSnowman »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #505 on: 29 May , 2010, 16:48 »
Hi Maciek, Rokket & Pat

Re: our converse about the 'dynamic pressure' inlets for the speedometer in February this year. I found this view of U-995 of the bow vents, inside the vents you can see a pipe running to the edge of the bow. I wonder if this could be for the 'dynamic pressure' inlets pipe ??? Also it looks like they patch this area and maybe that why I can not locate the opening for the speedometer.
   
From http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4272#msg4272


Picture from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #506 on: 29 May , 2010, 17:33 »
looks like a patch to stop visitors fro crawling in and poking around! Could be, hopefully Pat knows!
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #507 on: 30 May , 2010, 06:55 »
Thanks, Pat for your reply :) :)

I did not noted they are all ball valves, but make sense! However, one thing I can not get my head around is, if there no valve on a through-hull opening would that not mean one less place to leaks from ???

I wonder if the small pipes to each valve are for high pressure air to stop water coming in, in a full emergency. If your boat is sinking fast it better to have a few bubblers on the surface than be at the bottom at 4000m. What your thought on this Pat ???

You can usually tell ball valves because of the lever instead of a tap handle.  They use this for through-hull fittings because a ball valve can be closed quickly with just a quick flick of the wrist, while a gate valve (the ones with the tap handle, like an outside water tap) have to be turned several rotations to close and thus take too long in an emergency.  In a sub at depth, fast shut-off is important.

Not sure what the small pipes would be but your idea of using high pressure air makes sense.The air wouldn't even necessarily be escaping, but instead it would be a way to equalize the pressure on both sides of the valve so that the outside water pressure would have a harder time working its way through the joints in the valve.  You can only machine the toperances so tightly between the ball and the body of the valve before it would be too tight for the operator to turn, but that might still let water through, but if the whole valve could be pressurized, then that wouldn't matter.

I'm going to have to wait until I can get to another computer for the second question about the knotmeter (never call it a speedometer on a boat) because with this old clunker, I can't see the picture.

I do remember our previous conversation about the location though and I'm still wondering about how they protected it from hitting floating debris if it was at the cutwater (leading edge) of the boat.  These boats tended to have a lot of the bow come right out of the water in heavy seas so it would be a very vulnerable location.  Could this cover you're talking about be some sort of protection for that?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #508 on: 31 May , 2010, 01:47 »
Hi Simon,

Quote
Seewolf, was the SU-Apparat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #509 on: 02 Jun , 2010, 01:29 »
Hello Simon

I have always thought that there were two TDC on a U-Boat, one in the Conning tower and one in the Control Room. However, now I believe there was only one in the Conning tower. Can anyone confirm this for me?


Attack periscope & TDC within the Conning tower :)

Some time ago you have posted drawing of the TDC.
Have you got the labels or descriptions of all dials you have drawn?

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Maciek

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #510 on: 02 Jun , 2010, 02:21 »
Have you got the labels or descriptions of all dials you have drawn?

OK, I have found what I need.
http://www.pbase.com/kevbelcher/image/74885787

--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #511 on: 02 Jun , 2010, 13:45 »
Hi Maciek

I try to post last night before going to bed but my internet stop working :(

Here is a clearer picture of U-995 TDC also. Not sure if this will be important to you but I base my drawing of the TDC from U-505 as I initial thought that there were two different TDC on a U-boat and I want to base my drawing of the TDC from the CT. Now I know there is only one aboard each boat.

It look like a Type IX TDC are vertical and the Type VII’s are horizon :) That is why my is vertical (I will change my back at a later date).

« Last Edit: 02 Jun , 2010, 14:42 by NZSnowman »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #512 on: 03 Jun , 2010, 00:30 »
Hello Simon

Here is a clearer picture of U-995 TDC also. Not sure if this will be important to you but I base my drawing of the TDC from U-505 as I initial thought that there were two different TDC on a U-boat and I want to base my drawing of the TDC from the CT. Now I know there is only one aboard each boat.

It look like a Type IX TDC are vertical and the Type VII

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #513 on: 04 Jun , 2010, 02:49 »
The French dock workers are extremely happy today as the keel for U-1308 was laid and finish today :) :) this include all 1,461 rivets ;D ;D

The French dock workers are working extremely hard this week, as they know the shipyard will be closing in about 2 weeks for the winter. This week they finish the wooden deck, added the bow casting with the torpedo doors and added the new Balcon Ger

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #514 on: 04 Jun , 2010, 06:38 »
The French dock workers are working extremely hard this week, as they know the shipyard will be closing in about 2 weeks for the winter...and added the new Balcon Ger
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #515 on: 04 Jun , 2010, 17:13 »
Hi Pat

Here a question for you, I am sure you will know. Why are

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #516 on: 04 Jun , 2010, 21:51 »
Stringer is a term probably as old as shipbuilding.  In wooden ship and boat building, stringers have always been horizontal beams (or lathes in boats) on the inside of the ribs used to tie or "string together" the ribs so as to keep their spacing and thus strengthen the hull.

When you build a boat, it takes considerable time to attach all the planks along the ribs to close up the hull and if there was nothing to hold the top of the ribs in place during this process, the twisting forces of the bent planks would pull the ribs out of alignment.  But if there's a stringer placed first every so often along the ribs, it keeps the spacing for the ribs.

After the outside of the hull is finished, the stringers are left in for added strength and can also be landing points for the edges of decks (or in small boats, thwarts or seats)

In U-boats of course, there are no longer any planks, but stringers are still useful to keep the ribs of the casing aligned and provide strongpoints for attachment to the pressure hull and for other pieces of equipment and bracing for the deck.  Without the stringers, the casing might have a tendency to twist in the forward and aft parts that extend beyond the pressure hull.  This could create a problem especially in the bow where the outer torpedo tube doors have to move.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #517 on: 06 Jun , 2010, 12:23 »
Does anyone know the diameter of the Torpedos tube ???

I am thinking around 561mm = (533mm + 2 x (the steel looks like 12mm + 2mm free ride))

Just found that the inside diameter of the U.S. Navy 21 in torpedoes tube are 21.125 in, which is 536.6, that only leaves about 3 mm clearness between the tube and torpedo. If the German torpedoe tubes are similar to the U.S. it look like my previous diameters may be very near.

The Fleet Type Submarine Online 21-Inch Submerged Torpedo Tubes http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #518 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 04:11 »
Does anyone know the diameter of the Torpedos tube ???

I am thinking around 561mm = (533mm + 2 x (the steel looks like 12mm + 2mm free ride))

Simon,

Maybe : http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/UTorpedos.htm

Laurent...
« Last Edit: 07 Jun , 2010, 11:12 by Pepper-mint »
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #519 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 15:39 »
Thanks, Pepper. This link has helped it all come together for me  :) :) :) :) :) I had the correct German values for the torpedo tube for sometime now but my German to English translation was bad and I miss understand the meaning. It look like they are 7752 mm long and still checking the diameter meaning.

Seewolf, that is Hecketorpedorohr? I get Hedge torpedo pipe but this look wrong.

Here the full text if this helps.

Das boot ist mit 4 Bugtorpedorohren und einem Hecketorpedorohr von 553.6  mm Durchmesser und 7752 mm L

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #520 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 16:42 »
Bugtorpedorohren / Hecketorpedorohr

I think it's :
Bugtorpedorohren : Bow torpedo tubes
hecktorpedorohr : Stern torpedo tube

link : http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBNotesArmament.htm   @Torpedo and Mine Vocabulary  B & H section

 ;)
« Last Edit: 07 Jun , 2010, 17:00 by Pepper-mint »
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #521 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 17:03 »
Thanks Pepper  :) :)

It also look like the 553.6 mm diameter is the inside diameter of the torpedo tube. This would examine the large clearness between the torpedo and tube that is on display at Laboe Naval Memorial. It looks like the Kriegsmarine went for a larger clearness between the tube and torpedo compare to the U.S. Navy.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #522 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 17:16 »
You're welcome ! I love torpedos and torpedorohre ;D

2cm difference : like a bullet in a barrel (the difference is the water instead of the air) ; when the water fills the tube, the torpedo floats and slides on the water along the rohr... Lubrification...

« Last Edit: 08 Jun , 2010, 01:45 by Pepper-mint »
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #523 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 19:41 »
Simon is sad :'( :'( as he has just realise for the last three days he been drawing the starboard bow torpedo tube and not the port torpedo tube ::) ::).

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #524 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 23:31 »

Fig. 1. Outer Torpedo Tube No. 2.


Fig. 2. Outer Torpedo Tube within Bow Diving Tank.

* Large rod that runs along the top of the torpedo tube is the control arm for opening/closing outer/inter torpedo doors.
* Smaller rod is unknown to me, I think set something near the torpedo warhead :-\
* Large pipe (right) at top of torpedo tube is used to let sea water in.
* Oil lines to bearing, I believe run to upper deck, as there no evidence that they go back into the Pressure Hull & there no access into the Bow Diving Tank. I am thinking they run up to around Frame 96 (which is near the end of wooden deck) as there a hatch in is area.


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #525 on: 07 Jun , 2010, 23:45 »
Hello Simon

Nice work.

* Smaller rod is unknown to me, I think set something near the torpedo warhead :-\

I think the small rod is a drive for a mine stop bolt, but I suppose that only from descriptions - I have never seen the drawing or photo
of that part of tube.

* Large pipe (right) at top of torpedo tube is used to let sea water in.

On the top of the torpedo tube is pipe for tube venting. Pipe for flooding is in the bottom part (and I think it's missing here).

* Oil lines to bearing, I believe run to upper deck, as there no evidence that they go back into the Pressure Hull & there no access into the Bow Diving Tank. I am thinking they run up to around Frame 96 (which is near the end of wooden deck) as there a hatch in is area.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm
CHAPTER III, Maintenance Arrangements, paragraph 63, 64, 65, page 18 - few sentences that can be helpful for you.

--
Regards
Maciek


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #526 on: 08 Jun , 2010, 01:47 »
Hi Maciek

Thanks for the information  :) :) :)

You could be right about the 'drive for a mine stop bolt' as I remember seeing something similar to this, in this area of the U.S. Navy torpedo tube. I will go back to check this out.

I have no pictures of the underside of torpedo tube, so I consider that is pipe must be the sea water inlet.

One things:
Do you know where the sea water came from? Did they just get it from within the bow casting?

Thanks for the link. I special like number 63  ;D ;D


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #527 on: 08 Jun , 2010, 03:15 »
Hi Simon

I have no pictures of the underside of torpedo tube, so I consider that is pipe must be the sea water inlet.

According to:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate25.htm
as well as to US Navy tubes:
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm
and drawings in the "The submarine Alliance" (the Anatomy of the ship series)
the the flooding and draining pipes were at the bottom part of the tube.

On this photo of the U-995 forward tubes

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3299/torpedorohr2.jpg
the part marked by number 1 is a flooding/draining valve (marked as i on the
U-570 Plate25) of the tube no II (upper left). There is also marked with thin red
line a link connecting this valve with interlock (number 2), which prevents opening
the drain valve when external torpedo doors are open.

One things:
Do you know where the sea water came from? Did they just get it from within the bow casting?

According to
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate25.htm
the tube was flooded with water moved (by means of the pressured air) from Torpedo Compensating Tanks (respectively 1, 2, 3).
In such case the trim of the boat till the firing of the torpedo is not changed.

--
Regards
Maciek
« Last Edit: 08 Jun , 2010, 03:18 by SnakeDoc »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #528 on: 08 Jun , 2010, 08:16 »
One more thing...


Fig. 2. Outer Torpedo Tube within Bow Diving Tank.

On your drawing it seems like the tube consists from four parts - one inside and three outside pressure hull bolted together.
In British report mentioned above (chapter III, paragraph 5) is written that tube is bolted from three sections.

--
Regards
Maciek


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #529 on: 09 Jun , 2010, 14:05 »
Hi Maciek

Yes you are right. I have only three sections

3 sections within the Bow Diving Tank.
Plus a very small section (about 200m long) between the Bow Diving Tank bulkhead and the Torpedo outer door

The bit that looks like another section within the pressure hull is the 1st section (Mid Grey) going through the bow cap (Black) and bolting on to a mounting ring. On the mounting ring there two rows of bolts. I believe the 1st outer section is bolted to the mounting ring first then on top of this is added the inter Torpedo tube (Light Grey). I still doing research in the area so is may not be 100% correct

     

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #530 on: 10 Jun , 2010, 01:43 »
Hi Simon

To be honest, I can not imagine these construction. Could you attach a sketch with lines marking the connection between these parts of tube?

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Maciek

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #531 on: 10 Jun , 2010, 01:53 »
No problems, will also post some pictures. Will do it tomorrow, off to bed now ;D
« Last Edit: 10 Jun , 2010, 14:55 by NZSnowman »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #532 on: 10 Jun , 2010, 23:37 »
Maciek, did not get time today to do the sketch, busy at work, doing avalanche control work ;D Will get around to it on Tuesday now, sorry.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #533 on: 17 Jun , 2010, 23:32 »
Balcon Gerät – Update

I have redrawn the Balcon Gerät to what I believe is more correct and accurate to the Balcon Gerät that was on U-995. The new dimension at base foremost on the internal framing of the Type VIIC. I believe the complete structure of the Balcon Gerät is deigned around the two support shafts that attach it to the bow of a Type VIIC. Believing this and knowing the internal framing I have resize and relocated the Balcon Gerät. In addition, the fore support shaft acted to carry all the wiring through the Bow Diving Tank to ‘E’ Deck which holds all the GHG junction boxes (seen in an earlier drawing.



I believe these are the steps that they perform to install the Balcon Gerät.

  • Cut two holes in the under side of the bow for the support shafts.
  • Disconnect all old GHG wire to the junction boxes, leaving all wiring in the Bow Diving Tank.
  • Remove the upper decking, cut a hole into ‘E’ deck so the fore support shaft with wiring inside can be lowed through the Bow Diving Tank.
  • Raise the Balcon Gerät into position with rear support shaft already in Balcon Gerät .
  • Lowed the fore support shaft through the Bow Diving Tank and into Balcon Gerät.
  • Weld support shaft into place.
  • Connect all Balcon Gerät wiring to junction boxes and connect wiring to the sensors.
  • Replace upper decking.


Fig. 1. New shape of the Balcon Gerät (upper) and older Balcon Gerät (lower). Also from this drawing you can see the support shafts, wiring and no support ribbing (no rivets) I believe they welded the outer shell of the Balcon Gerät directly on to the internal framing of the Balcon Gerät to reduce all under water noises.


Fig. 2. Balcon Gerät with support shafts and Bow Diving Tank.


Fig. 3. Bow section with Balcon Gerät, with fore Outer Torpedo Tube.

« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2010, 14:20 by NZSnowman »

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #534 on: 17 Jun , 2010, 23:57 »
It was a dreadful day at the shipyard, the weather continues getting worse. The morning started with only light rain but by late morning the weather was awful, driving rain and strong winds. The dockworkers refuse to work outside today. They were keen to finish the deck of U-1308, the newest VIIC/41 in the fleet, nevertheless they all voted to work inside due to the weather. They decided to work in the aft battery room.

They installed the new 33 MAL 800 batteries and connected them all up, next they install the small maintenance trolley. They were nearly done with the aft battery room, when they heard the end-of-day whistle blow. Before the whistle finished, they had drop there tools and were halfway out the gate on there way home. There is always tomorrow to finish it ;D


Now all the dockworkers were standing before the large iron gates of the shipyard that have been locked for the last few months. They were all keen and yearning to go back to work on U-1308 and finish this last boast of the VIIC’s series however the gates had been firmly locked now for the whole of the winter. One of the dockworker had heard that the foreman had to got a ‘real world job’ during the winter. Other dockworkers were heard asking what was this ‘real world job’ but none of them know that is was. One dockworkers also heard that a few eager guys had climbed the gates a month back and spend an hours working on the boat. As all the dockworkers decided were was no point waiting by the gates a little boy run by the group to the gates and pin up a small note that reads “The shipyard will reopen in spring”. All the dockworkers were happy and delight. This was good news to go home with!  ;D

Again the large iron gates of the shipyard are locked for the winter and the boatyard is closed. The dockworkers look back over there work for the last six months. They finish the engine room for U-1308. They finish the upper deck, ribbing, framing, pressure hull and casting. They add the latest Diesel Exhaust Outlets style, and UZO. They started layering all the piping under the decking, and putting in the torpedo tubes.

Thanks everyone for your help and information with my drawing. I will still found a little bit time to check the boards over the next few months. Wish you all the best for your summer or winter, Simon.

PS. I will post a few more update during next week
« Last Edit: 18 Jun , 2010, 13:36 by NZSnowman »

Offline Pepper-mint

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #535 on: 19 Jun , 2010, 07:55 »
Hi Simon,

That is great job !!!
U-1299 crew is thankfull !  ;)
Awaiting U-1308 shipyard news...

Take care
On the W.bench :
Books, pics, drawings, styrene, dreams and :

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #536 on: 19 Jun , 2010, 14:31 »
Stern Update


Fig. 1. Stern Section without and with hull systems

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #537 on: 19 Jun , 2010, 20:54 »
Propeller Shaft & Stuffing Box - Update


Fig. 1. Stuffing Box.

Hi Pat.
How does this look for a Stuffing Box ??? I could not found any drawing of a U-boat Stuffing Box, so used drawing for large ship Stuffing Box from the 50's. Do you think the lignum vitae wood should be extended :-\
« Last Edit: 20 Jun , 2010, 18:19 by NZSnowman »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #538 on: 20 Jun , 2010, 18:17 »
Hi Simon

To be honest, I can not imagine these construction. Could you attach a sketch with lines marking the connection between these parts of tube?

--
Regards
Maciek


Fig. 1. Top Drawing - Side View with bolts holes & Bottom Drawing - Top view cross-section.

Sections

Green = Internal torpedo tube section (bow section)
Red = Section 1 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Purple = Section 2 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Orange = Section 3 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Copper = Small section of outer torpedo tube (within torpedo outer door).
Yellow = A small gasket I believe :-\
Blue = Bow cap Casting

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #539 on: 24 Jun , 2010, 02:29 »
Torpedo Tube Oil Lines - Update

Drawing base on CHAPTER III, Maintenance Arrangements, paragraph

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #540 on: 24 Jun , 2010, 07:13 »
Simon, I've tried for several days now, on 4 different computers and 3 different ISP's, to view the picture of the stuffing box that you were asking about on June 19 but can't get the picture to come up on any of them.  I can't see any pictures posted on this thread after the one June 17, so can't make any comments.

However, here is a URL which has diagrams of several submarine stuffing boxes for periscopes, which might be of some help. 

If I add it up right, there should be about 7 stuffing boxes on a type VII U-boat

(1 each for the arm to activate the forward dive planes, rear dive planes and rudders) total of 3

(1 for each of the 2 propellor shafts) total of 2

(1 for each of the 2 periscopes) total of 2

About the only difference is that the propellor shaft stuffing boxes would have to stand up to longer periods of use at higher speeds, but other than that, they would probably be very similar in design.

On my boat, I can't get at the stuffing box very easily since it is buried deep in the keel and I have to dismantle the panels on two berths and then dive in head first to get to it in a very confined space.  My owner's manual doesn't have a diagram either.

However, the principal of them is basically the same except that most modern stuffing boxes seem to be only of metal with no wood (lignam vitae).  The stuffing box is filled usually with oiled rope or cotton, packed very tightly and then with the pressure increased by turning screws that condense the packing as much as mechanically possible.  As can be seen in the URL I've posted, there is sometimes also a bushing formed by a flat wire or grooved tube wrapped around the moveable shaft to allow water-repellant lubrication to service the shaft as well.

Hope this is of some help. 

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #541 on: 24 Jun , 2010, 10:17 »
Reading that URL from U-boat archive about U-570, that was posted by Simon, I came across something that I've always wondered about, but hadn't found an answer to (or perhaps I had and had forgotten it).

Just above the forward hydroplanes are two round circles on each side of the hull. 

Page 28 of the U-570 archives describes the UT ("underwater telegraphy") gear and that has to be what those two circles are.

If so, there are almost certainly black in colour and a dull, almost, but not quite flat finish.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #542 on: 26 Jun , 2010, 21:30 »
Hi Pat

I can not imagine why you can not see the picture. I will have a think of another way so you can view it, as I am very intense to see what you think of my Stuffing Box.

I have found a basic drawing for a US Gato periscope Stuffing Box which I may used next summer if I can not found a German one.

Also on the UT, I have always believe the covers for the UT and GHG sensors were made of copper :-\       
   

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #543 on: 28 Jun , 2010, 03:58 »
Hello Simon



Fig. 1. Top Drawing - Side View with bolts holes & Bottom Drawing - Top view cross-section.

Sections

Green = Internal torpedo tube section (bow section)
Red = Section 1 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Purple = Section 2 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Orange = Section 3 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Copper = Small section of outer torpedo tube (within torpedo outer door).
Yellow = A small gasket I believe :-\
Blue = Bow cap Casting


Thanks for additional description.
Could you tell me sources you based on drawing tube as 4 sections (1 inner and 3 outer) device?

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #544 on: 28 Jun , 2010, 17:17 »
Hi Maciek

For the outer tube section I used several pictures from the U-995 DVD


Picture from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

and for the bow cap casting/outer tube/bolts I used several pictures from a private collection.

 

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #545 on: 29 Jun , 2010, 01:51 »
Hi Simon

Thanks for photos.
I have seen the first photo before, but I have not associated it with submarine tube (but it clearly is).
The second photo is interensting - it seems like aft (nearer pressure hull) part of the lower port torpedo tube.
This part of tube is very rarely pictured ;(

--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #546 on: 02 Jul , 2010, 13:46 »
I don't know what it is about the pictures on this site, but they seem to be a problem for me.  I often have trouble and have to refresh several times to get the entire pic, or perhaps come back a different day and then it works, but not always.  I've tried one more computer now, again on a different ISP and can't view them.

Sometimes I put it down to my cranky old computer but when it

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #547 on: 03 Jul , 2010, 03:50 »
I'm not sure but there MIGHT be a reference to the UT/GHG in Dougie's paint article, or The Wolf Pack...

Pat - sorry you are having trouble viewing pix. The tube pix above are actually just links, from imageshack, tho they seem to be appearing OK. I know we have a free forum app, and a free gallery with limited space we have to keep upping, but it should still work for you. can you describe symptoms and errors, and we'll see what we can do. I wonder if it is a browser setting on the various computers you are trying..hopefully, because that's an easy fix!
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Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #548 on: 03 Jul , 2010, 03:50 »
oh, excellent pix, never seen before, THANKS!
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #549 on: 03 Jul , 2010, 14:13 »
Ok, the two pix just before are a good example.

The top picture (titled "Picture from U-995") at the moment is only showing from the top down to just before the tube starts.  I see a white background with what looks like perhaps a chain and a beige/butterscotch coloured part in the middle that I can't tell what it is.  The total visible part is about 3 cursor widths high (I'm using that as a measurement since different monitors might produce different measurements).  The rest of the picture is blank.  There's enough space for it, but nothing has come up after waiting for 1/2 hour to download.

The bottom picture though (the bow cap casting/outer tube/bolts) has come through perfectly showing a white tube with a collar and 2 rows of nuts holding it together, a rusted bar crossing it diagonally from upper left to lower right and an a rusty 's' shaped tube on the right hand side.

Sometimes, if I refresh several times, I get a little bit more of the picture each time.  Sometimes not.  Sometimes it makes a difference to try a different computer on a different ISP, but often not.  At first I thought it was just my old clunker computer but if that was the case, why it not work on the computer at the yacht club office, my wife's business computer (using my ISP) or her laptop usingsomebody else's wireless, or a computer at the library?

Perhaps it's something to do with bandwidth in this area, but then, I'd think the library with hi-speed connectivity would work fine.

I don't understand myself, but whenever I get one that comes through right, if it's going to be useful I make sure to save it in case I can never see it again.

Offline dougie47

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #550 on: 05 Jul , 2010, 15:17 »
Hello guys,

Pat, I can't recall the source off the top of my head (it's been a few years since I wrote the colours article) but I was told the UT and GHG covers were unpainted bronze. This is on P41 of "The Wolf Pack".

Cheers,

Dougie

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #551 on: 05 Jul , 2010, 21:45 »
Hi Simon

Thanks for photos.
I have seen the first photo before, but I have not associated it with submarine tube (but it clearly is).
The second photo is interensting - it seems like aft (nearer pressure hull) part of the lower port torpedo tube.
This part of tube is very rarely pictured ;(

--
Regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek

This picture and others were taken by a member of the SUBSIM Forum during a visit to U-995. I can not remember who or which sub-forum >:( However, there are several other members of the SUBSIM that have posted were trip to U-995. Could be worth a search for a picture of different view.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #552 on: 05 Jul , 2010, 21:54 »
Hello guys,

Pat, I can't recall the source off the top of my head (it's been a few years since I wrote the colours article) but I was told the UT and GHG covers were unpainted bronze. This is on P41 of "The Wolf Pack".

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Pat

I can imagine this was my source also. Just got the wrong metal  :-[ :-[

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #553 on: 06 Jul , 2010, 19:20 »
Dougie, bronze or copper, being metal just seems odd to me for what's basically a microphone cover.  Copper is a basic ingredient of antifouling coatings, (as is tin back in those days).  Since bronze is an alloy with copper but it doesn't turn green the same way, it might be a little more likely. 

The UT and GHG would basically be analagous to the depth sounders of today, which are a very thick black plastic of some sort, but then, in WWII, they may not have had such types of plastic, or if they did, couldn't divert the petroleum resources to making it.  That might have been a reason for using metal. 

Any idea how they transmitted sound if they were metal?

Offline dougie47

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #554 on: 07 Jul , 2010, 15:18 »
Hi Pat,

If I remember correctly it was Rainer Bruns who told me they were bronze. He is very knowledgeable on the technical side of U-boats, and indeed the operational side too. Going by photos of the UT covers on brand new boats, they did look like a metal such as bronze so I went with what he told me.

My initial thought when you mentioned plastic was exactly as you pointed out - that they didn't have plastic or that bronze was much more readily available.

Cheers,

Dougie   

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #555 on: 12 Jul , 2010, 14:51 »
Dougie, bronze or copper, being metal just seems odd to me for what's basically a microphone cover.  Copper is a basic ingredient of antifouling coatings, (as is tin back in those days).  Since bronze is an alloy with copper but it doesn't turn green the same way, it might be a little more likely. 

The UT and GHG would basically be analagous to the depth sounders of today, which are a very thick black plastic of some sort, but then, in WWII, they may not have had such types of plastic, or if they did, couldn't divert the petroleum resources to making it.  That might have been a reason for using metal. 

Any idea how they transmitted sound if they were metal?



Hi Pat

Here a cross section of a sensors from my drawing. The German Navy were utilizing Rochelle (salt) crystals (K Na C4 N4 O6) (known as Seignette-Kristall, in Germany) (blue and white in the drawing), based on the 'piezoelectrical effect'. I believe they used a small gasket light gray in the drawing around the sensors and black is the pressure hull and orange is the bronze cover.

Pat, if you can not see the drawing try this link http://img293.imageshack.us/i/graphic1od.jpg/

Hi Maciek, Send you PM but not sure if it work, if not, let me know :-)
« Last Edit: 12 Jul , 2010, 15:00 by NZSnowman »

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #556 on: 18 Jul , 2010, 14:55 »
No luck on the line drawing, either here or on the link.  I've tried several times over the past 3 days.

I'll have to try from different computers again.  Sometimes that works.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #557 on: 19 Jul , 2010, 05:58 »
      Hi Pat.. Same problem on my end. Nothing visable on the forum or link.
                                                                         Bill

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #558 on: 19 Jul , 2010, 16:08 »
Bill and Pat, I workout why you guys can't see the pictures, its because you guys are about -7 hours GMT and NZ is +12 GMT. You guys are always 18 hours behind the rest of us. ;D ;D ;)


Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #559 on: 21 Jul , 2010, 03:16 »
"real keen to get some comment of what you think of my Stuffing Box."...

Have you used that line in a bar picking up women?
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Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #560 on: 21 Jul , 2010, 03:16 »
On a more serious note, very sorry some are having trouble with the pix. They work ia very simple manner, so all i can think is a setting - most of us can see them. I will see what a tech search does, so we can try to solve this
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #561 on: 21 Jul , 2010, 03:33 »
Hello and good morning
At last time i have some trouble with this board. I changed the preferred Language from English to German and at this time i dont can see any Buttons at the top of this side. as i change it back to english it was ok.

Offline Pat

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #562 on: 22 Jul , 2010, 16:28 »
Ok, I can see the picture going through that site.  I think the colours might have changed since there's no grey or white, but there is a green tube with a pair of bright blue lines horizontally in the middle.

Anyway, the drawing makes sense, and I can see what must be the bronze cover plate on the extreme right in the picture.  The gasket doesn't show up as grey, but I think it must be behind the bronze plate?

Not 100% sure how it works, but if you're saying that there's some sort of 'piezoelectrical effect', then I can sort of imagine a bit. 

Hmmm, where it's located, it must not even be inside the PH, so the transducer would be at the same pressure as the outside water perhaps, or so thick and small that it doesn't matter, and then it just sends the signal into the operator via a through hull.

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #563 on: 23 Jul , 2010, 23:44 »
Trader, I will check for updated German Language for this forum - sorry you had trouble

Pat - still checking solutions
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Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #564 on: 24 Jul , 2010, 00:13 »
Pat - I have changed php code re: pix and thumbnails. This was the recommended solution at Simple Machines Forum Help. It solved the problem on other forums. Please chck and see if the images are visible for you.
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #565 on: 24 Jul , 2010, 00:37 »
Trader - we had some bad files for German, Dutch, Spanish and Russian. Hopefully fixed now. Please try German again and let us know if it works.

Thanks
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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #566 on: 28 Jul , 2010, 23:00 »
Does anyone have the old old links for the 360 deg view of U-505? I seems to lose them here :(

Also anyone seen the 'U505 Extend the Experience' DVD? Is it any good?

Thanks, Simon.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #567 on: 28 Jul , 2010, 23:21 »
Does anyone have the old old links for the 360 deg view of U-505? I seems to lose them here :(
A little more searching and I found the link http://archive.msichicago.org/exhibit/U505/virtualtour/vr_tour/index.html

But here another question:

I am looking at the side step on the inside of the Bridge. The step on U-505 look like wood (check out the link below) and the step on U-955 is metal. I know these are not the original steps on U-955, as the original German

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #568 on: 29 Jul , 2010, 01:15 »
There's logic either way. I would lean to metal, but that is backed up by nothing historical, just modern practical.
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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #569 on: 01 Aug , 2010, 16:40 »
Hi Simon,

Yeah, you'll need a compass repeater, engine dial and voicepipe. Have a look at this photo -



It is of U 995 after her Norwegian service. Now there may have been changes made by the Norwegians. But I don't have a photo of the "dashboard" of a wartime VIIC/41. You can see the compass repeater and engine dial are in the usual location, as on VIICs. The viocepipe is in the usual location to the starboard side (but is partially obscured by the periscope base).

Remember that a shelf was fitted to the VIICs and VIIC/41s from mid-war or so. The photos of U 377 show an example of this shelf, which was usually flat. Note there would be a hole in this shelf to allow access for the sky periscope. 

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

The small shelf with the telegraphs and viocepipe on it under the top shelf on U-995. Do you think this was a thing for Type VIIC/41s or added by the Norwegians?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #570 on: 03 Aug , 2010, 20:41 »
Wink, the colours are still the same with the diagram of the UT, but at least it comes through clearly.  That's better than some of the pix on some of the other threads.  Ie. "Work in Progress", I only get the top few mm of each picture.  Not enough to see what it's all about.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #571 on: 03 Aug , 2010, 20:58 »
Simon, re the question about the small shelf under the voicepipe and telegraph etc., not sure because of course Revell has been know to get things wrong in the past, but in the Revell Type VII C/41, 1:72 model, the shelf is there.

What isn't there is the vertical kickplate(?) underneath the shelf.

From my own experience at sea, I think also the shelf ABOVE the voicepipe/instruments was possibly an add-on that skippers might have installed to keep water from washing over the instruments and making them hard to read. 


Offline dougie47

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #572 on: 04 Aug , 2010, 14:41 »
Hi Simon,

The small shelf under the telegraphs/voicepipe was there on VIIBs and VIICs. I think this shelf continued to be used on VIIC/41s as well. Although I don't have photographic evidence of this shelf on VIIC/41s, the fact that U 995 had this shelf may suggest it was used on VIIC/41s?

Pat - you are correct about the shelf ABOVE the telegraphs/voicepipe. The early VIICs didn't have this feature. I can't recall offhand when it was fitted to the U-boat fleet but I'm thinking 1942 or 1943 or so.

Simon, the side step on the inside of the tower would be metal, I think. You are right to mention about the pattern of the diamond plate. The VIICs (and maybe all the VIIC/41 too?) all had the "original" type of plate with raised dots.

Cheers,

Dougie

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #573 on: 09 Aug , 2010, 15:57 »
Dougie, you are correct about the

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #574 on: 10 Aug , 2010, 03:28 »
some museums go to much more trouble than others to preserve Period Correctness and accuracy...sorry to see less than a certain quality changes
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #575 on: 10 Aug , 2010, 12:26 »
Hi Simon,

Thanks for posting the photos, particularly the second one. I hadn't realised that this other type was used inside the boats.

That fancy new flooring in your third pic doesn't look prototypical :)

Cheers,

Dougie

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #576 on: 11 Aug , 2010, 01:04 »
It sad to think of U-995 as the last Type VII, as an inaccuracy part of history :( :( You would think they could get funding from the Germen Navy, to bring her back to what she look like at the end of WWII. It the only Type VII above the surface out of +700.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #577 on: 12 Aug , 2010, 00:46 »
I don't think that the german navy/ goverment will "waste" money on a military monument of that time. political correctness. germany does not feel easy at all when it comes to anything connected with the nazi time. which is o.k., don't You think?

U-995 is a monument for all those who died, it's sort of a monument on a graveyard. let's be thankfull that it's there at all!

edit:
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/geschichte_me.htm

interesting: the german site talks about the funding problems (no funding from official sides at all as I suspected), but they seem to skip that on the english translation..................mmmh............

edit 2:
but on the other hand we like to "keep our traditions running": not at least our U-boot exports make us the 3. largest nation when it comes to military exports.....................................

 
« Last Edit: 12 Aug , 2010, 00:53 by rabapla »
Sincerely

Ralf

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #578 on: 12 Aug , 2010, 10:18 »
I don't think that the german navy/ goverment will "waste" money on a military monument of that time. political correctness. germany does not feel easy at all when it comes to anything connected with the nazi time. which is o.k., don't You think?

U-995 is a monument for all those who died, it's sort of a monument on a graveyard. let's be thankfull that it's there at all!
 

Rabapla, you make some very good point! There are things I did not think about at the time.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #579 on: 20 Aug , 2010, 22:58 »

The atteck periscope (middle); the FuMB-9 Wanze (left) and the FuMB-35 Athos (right) (both passive radar detection) with pictures of U-249.


A small update for U-1308, a more correct FuMB-9 Wanze head.



 
« Last Edit: 20 Aug , 2010, 23:05 by NZSnowman »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #580 on: 23 Aug , 2010, 17:56 »
The crew of U-1308 are very happy today as they just acquire there shining new FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U radar. They are eager to try it out as soon as possible :)


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #581 on: 23 Aug , 2010, 20:07 »
VERY nice shematic Simon.  Do you have the profile and plan as well?  I've had a wonder about what the bottom of the array looks like.

A couple of things perhaps of interest.

While I was looking up the 37mm FlaK for Le Bosco, I came across a site with comments from the Germans that apparently the admiralty had a great deal of trouble getting U-boat commanders to actually use their radar sets.  The problem was that after the problems with the 'Biscay Cross' detectors, U-boaters came to believe that the Allies had radar detectors that could locate any German radar sets in use and vector in aircraft.  They didn't trust command assurances that German radar operated on different wavelengths and preferred to use their passive detectors (which had a longer range anyway) rather than transmitting a signal that might be intercepted.

Unfortunately, I didn't save the URL but if you search on 37mm FlaK, you might be able to come up with the same site that I'd found about equipment.

The second little tidbit of interest is that one of my neighbours recently got fed up with paying for TV cable and satellite, and went back to the idea of an antenna.  When I saw the antenna, I couldn't believe it.  It was almost exactly like the radar receiver you have pictured above.  The major differences were that it had quadrolpoles instead of dipoles, and the frame had only the horizontal bars with a central pole and not the vertical bars on the sides like the German set.  But if you mounted it on a lifesized U-boat replica, only people such as ourselves with more than a passing interest in detail would notice that it wasn't the same.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #582 on: 23 Aug , 2010, 23:50 »
Hi Pat

You are right about U-boat commanders not keen on using there radar sets. In all the books I have read, not one of them has said they used them.

I have not drawn the other views yet, will do them later.

LE BOSCO

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #583 on: 24 Aug , 2010, 09:48 »

NZSnowman

Your work is amazing!You are really a big artist and your work is a real source of inspiration, so much you are precise in details!!
Thank you for sharing!

....While I was looking up the 37mm FlaK for Le Bosco,......
Pat I would not like to make you work in hours of overtime (I do not pay them :D :D :D ;))
Best regards
Nicolas

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #584 on: 27 Aug , 2010, 06:11 »
Hi Simon,

Nice work on the Hohentwiel and other recent drawings. There are two photos on Ebay that might help you with the Askania magnetic compass fairing.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057484?pt=Militaria#ht_2332wt_911

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057495?pt=Militaria#ht_2341wt_911

The first photo shows the trailing edge quite well.

Cheers,

Dougie

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #585 on: 27 Aug , 2010, 06:22 »
Nicolas, you may be right.  Since I started my U-711, I've put in about 18 months of work and still haven't even got the hull halves glued together.  But as you can tell from my description of the 37mm being around 70 pcs now, there's a lot of detail.  I try to make everything move as in the real ones, so the shiled folds, the gun rotates and elevates.  I've got most of the hatches on my boat opening, including the torpedo doors and the deck hatches, and all the antennas and scopes raise, lower and rotate.  It takes a while but it can be done.

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #586 on: 27 Aug , 2010, 21:41 »
Hi Simon,

Nice work on the Hohentwiel and other recent drawings. There are two photos on Ebay that might help you with the Askania magnetic compass fairing.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057484?pt=Militaria#ht_2332wt_911

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057495?pt=Militaria#ht_2341wt_911

The first photo shows the trailing edge quite well.

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie :) :)

Looking at the pictures, it looks like they used a double row of small rivets to fasten the outer sheet to the internal frame. I will add this detail to my drawing.

Dougie, do you know what it looks like under the fairing? I read somewhere that the compass sit outside the hull and there a system of mirrors, including a small glass window in the pressure hull that project the compass dial in to the control room :-\

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #587 on: 27 Aug , 2010, 23:49 »
The 2cm Amminition was loaded onto U-1308 today, however, still missing the guns ;D


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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #588 on: 28 Aug , 2010, 12:50 »
Hello again Simon,

I've not seen a photo of the inside of the magnetic compass fairing. The closest photo is on page 22 of Vom Original zum VIIC. Does the German caption below this photo shed any light?

The other thing to consider is that the Askania fairing might have functioned slightly differently to the earlier type of fairing. There must have been a reason to change to the Askania. Perhaps Askania was a company name or a brand name?

Also the shape of ther Askania would, I would think, be hydronamically inferior to the old fairing?

Cheers,

Dougie

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #589 on: 28 Aug , 2010, 14:56 »
Hello

I've not seen a photo of the inside of the magnetic compass fairing. The closest photo is on page 22 of Vom Original zum VIIC. Does the German caption below this photo shed any light?

The caption below said only about magnetic compass in non-magnetic casing with 900 mm radius.

The other thing to consider is that the Askania fairing might have functioned slightly differently to the earlier type of fairing. There must have been a reason to change to the Askania. Perhaps Askania was a company name or a brand name?

Also the shape of ther Askania would, I would think, be hydronamically inferior to the old fairing?

"Askania" was the name of company which produced compasses and other things (i.e. in last edition of "U-Boot in Focus" is
article about war correspndent Gerhard Garms, who used Askania Z camera in pressure proof casing mounted on conning tower
of U-404)
http://www.compassmuseum.com/diverstext/profiles.htm#ASKANIA

Dougie, do you know what it looks like under the fairing? I read somewhere that the compass sit outside the hull and there a system of mirrors, including a small glass window in the pressure hull that project the compass dial in to the control room :-\

According to report
http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm
the housing for magnetic compass was made non-magnetic plates (aluminum-manganese) (section 9C-S11, page 6).
and
"Plating and framing within 900 mm (35.4" of the magnetic compass, which is of aluminum-magnesium 5.25 per specification KM 9304."

In reports it is also:
"The magnetic compass is a standard compass mounted in a pressure-proof case in the superstructure forward of the conning tower fairwater.  Lighting is provided, and an optical train leads through the pressure hull to the steering station in the control room, where the image of the rose and azimuth circle appears on a ground glass screen."

The description refers to type IXC, but I'm sure, that it was the same on type VII.


--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #590 on: 28 Aug , 2010, 21:18 »
Also the shape of ther Askania would, I would think, be hydronamically inferior to the old fairing?

I think for sure, this would be hydrodynamically inferior. Maybe they needed a bigger gap to separate distances between the aluminum-magnesium and the steel :-\

"The magnetic compass is a standard compass mounted in a pressure-proof case in the superstructure forward of the conning tower fairwater.  Lighting is provided, and an optical train leads through the pressure hull to the steering station in the control room, where the image of the rose and azimuth circle appears on a ground glass screen."

I had a look for this in my photo

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #591 on: 29 Aug , 2010, 03:59 »
Hi

I had a look for this in my photo

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #592 on: 29 Aug , 2010, 08:23 »
great pix!
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #593 on: 29 Aug , 2010, 16:27 »
Fantastic found Maciek!!! When I was looking for it I was looking for something a lot smaller. I was so set in my mind what I thought it must look like that I was only looking for one thing, but since you pointed it out, it because very obvious.

I recheck my U-995 photo

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #594 on: 31 Aug , 2010, 05:35 »
good detective work
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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #595 on: 03 Sep , 2010, 23:18 »
Does anyone have any pictures of the mesh grill that can be sometime found around the bottom half of the wintergarten platforms?

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #596 on: 04 Sep , 2010, 06:09 »
NZ,

Not knowing if it helps at all.  These were the only two I had that were clear enough.


The above was enhanced from this shot:


This one might be on  "your CD"?


The above was enhanced from this shot:


Hope it helps...

LE BOSCO

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #597 on: 04 Sep , 2010, 07:14 »

Hi NZSnowman
If that can help you

I hope that you was not too "Shake" at home

regards
Nicolas

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #598 on: 04 Sep , 2010, 07:58 »
NZ,  I meant to ask, are you and yours are unscathed from the earthquake? New Castle is North West of the epicenter? That was sizable.  I have a lab in my building at work that reproduces earthquakes for client testing.  Anything above the 7 on the MMS (Moment Magnitude Scale) get pretty nasty.

I hope all is well, take care.

T

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #599 on: 04 Sep , 2010, 13:08 »
Thanks for the pictures, TRM & Nicolas  :) :)

TRM, I work and live about 55 km away from epicentre in the mountain. I was working at the time of the earthquake at 4:35am. As the avalanche forecaster at the ski area I work at, I was extremely concerned for the safety of our ‘on-hill’ staff. We have no avalanche within the ski area but there were many very large avalanches 'out of bound', all around us. We had to delay the opening of the ski area for a few hours while we checked equipment and assessed avalanche risk. There was no damage to anything manmade either at work or home :)  However, my parents live only 6 km away from epicentre, and they said that they have lot of damage within the house :( My mum toll me that the road that they live on, shifted 3m!
« Last Edit: 04 Sep , 2010, 13:10 by NZSnowman »