Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details

[SnakeDoc]

Tore, one off-topic question related to the high pressure compressed air system. In general, compressed air flasks are connected using "star topology" - with high pressure air distributor as central/control hub. With this air distributor are also connected air compressors (even with two lines - one primary and one backup/secondary).


When there was a need to recharge air flask, after starting compressors, were all air banks filled at the same time or were they filled one after another?
And, when rebuilding air supply, were both compressors running?


http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Tore, one off-topic question related to the high pressure compressed air system. In general, compressed air flasks are connected using "star topology" - with high pressure air distributor as central/control hub. With this air distributor are also connected air compressors (even with two lines - one primary and one backup/secondary).


When there was a need to recharge air flask, after starting compressors, were all air banks filled at the same time or were they filled one after another?
And, when rebuilding air supply, were both compressors running?


http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Maciek.
We normally filled one or two airvessels simultaneously. You wouldn`t operate with many empty many airvessels unless in emergency. Which means normally you took the sub up to periscopedepth (14- 11 meters) and the blew the tanks carefully until you were semi surfaced, starting the diesels and emptied the tanks by exhaust gaspressure.
In this way we had a low airconsumption. We very seldom  used more than one compressor mostly the E- compressor.
There are always exception though, in those cases it is an advantage to use the "star topology". Once we filled the main airduct to the diesel as the main inletvalve in the towercasing was open when diving, luckily the inletvalve in the engine room  was shut. However we were some 5-6 tonnes too heavy and had a quick descend, blowing all the tanks all the way using a tremendous amount of air before we finally stopped at 107 meters. When you then surface you shoot up like a rocket propelled by the expanding air in the tanks and have a spectacular surfacing with a lot of splashing. Then we had to run two compressors, this is the reason why you always want to have full airvessels. It is not the way to surface though.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Mainvents fuel/ ballasttanks 2&4.
I had a closer look at the mainvents inlet to the fuel/ ballast saddle tanks 2 port and stb. compairing in it with a GA drawing of 1943 and adjusting it to approximately to your scaledrawing. When using the aft  battery hatch as you use as the fixed point, it looks to me that your drawing has the mainvent inletpipe about 650-750 mm further forward than on the GA drawing.
See drawing below.
Tore

Hi Tore

In December 2009 I noted that two plans had illustrate the aft Battery Hatch in different location. After doing a little more research on why the move the aft battery hatch. I believe they move it for the 3.7cm FlaK and the quadruple 2cm L38/43 U Flak gun support for the lower Wintergraten. I believe they did this for all Type VIIC/41 or any Type VIIC that had a lower Wintergraten with these big guns on.

http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5416#msg5416

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Indeed substantial drawing work. A detail with regard to the saddletanks. I guess fwd and aft of the conningtower area the saddletanks have a sharp bend towards the pressurehull which facilitates the pipeconnections to the tanks, see drawing below. I don`t have a good picture of the casing deck in this area but I guess the deckhatches would give an indication of the location for the various deckoperated valves.
Tore

Tore,

The angle between the saddle tanks and the pressure hull is not as abrupt in the mid section as people think. Here a extremely rare view of U-995 that show you the angle between the saddle tanks and the pressure hull.

From the photo below, you can see why I angle the pipes into saddle tanks and in the foreground you can see the remains of the main vents

[tore]

Simon you are Right about the conningtower area, but just aft and fwd (frame55) of the saddeltanks have a sharp bend. Se pictures below showing the saddletanks joining the pressurehull forward and aft of conningtower of KNM Kaura. I guess you can just see the beginning of the bend aft of the conningtower on your picture as well.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Mainvents fuel/ ballasttanks 2&4.
I had a closer look at the mainvents inlet to the fuel/ ballast saddle tanks 2 port and stb. compairing in it with a GA drawing of 1943 and adjusting it to approximately to your scaledrawing. When using the aft  battery hatch as you use as the fixed point, it looks to me that your drawing has the mainvent inletpipe about 650-750 mm further forward than on the GA drawing.
See drawing below.
Tore

Hi Tore

In December 2009 I noted that two plans had illustrate the aft Battery Hatch in different location. After doing a little more research on why the move the aft battery hatch. I believe they move it for the 3.7cm FlaK and the quadruple 2cm L38/43 U Flak gun support for the lower Wintergraten. I believe they did this for all Type VIIC/41 or any Type VIIC that had a lower Wintergraten with these big guns on.

http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5416#msg5416

Simon very interesting I thougth the 1943 GA with snortmast was about the latest VIIC/41 version, but I guess modifications was an ongoing thing to the bitter end.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon you are Right about the conningtower area, but just aft and fwd (frame55) of the saddeltanks have a sharp bend. Se pictures below showing the saddletanks joining the pressurehull forward and aft of conningtower of KNM Kaura. I guess you can just see the beginning of the bend aft of the conningtower on your picture as well.
Tore

I have always found this area of the u-boat hard to draw, the saddle tanks/pressure hull, saddle tanks shape & the wooden deck shape. I have never found any real measurement in any of these areas. So it very hard for me to drawing accurate and I have to draw by

[NZSnowman]

Tore,

Here a lot better alignment of the angle between the saddle tanks and the pressure hull. The port saddle tank is the old drawing and the starboard is new alignment of the saddle tank. I think it much better

[NZSnowman]

Tore, do you have any drawings/pictures of the exhaust outlet control valves? I know that this area is very complex and I would love to add some of this detail.

[tore]

Yes Simon.
Having checked my drawings, I guess the sharp edge goes from aft all the way up to frame 32, then rounded at the tower about 9 meters and continues as sharp edge from frame 51 and forward.
Tore

[tore]

Tore, do you have any drawings/pictures of the exhaust outlet control valves? I know that this area is very complex and I would love to add some of this detail.

Simon
Do you mean the main exhaustvalves with grinders etc?
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Yes, any pictures or drawing of the outside.

[tore]

Simon
Main exhaustvalve system.
I am afraid I don`t have much pictures, but I guess we have to work us through the system from the main engine outlet to the silencer. In that case it might be better to comment on what you got based on your present drawings and possible photos and then to find out the details as we have done before. In the meantime I keep looking for details on my end.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

I only have two photo's from this area of the boat, very very rare to find photo's of this part of the boat. Maybe Maciek has a few pictures?

These are from U-250





http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/ship/tc14.php3

[tore]

Simon.
Main exhaust system.
You are right  there are not much pictures or drawings to find on the  subject. The system consist of an inboard exhaustvalve in a watercooled housing going through the pressurehull. The valvedisc has a wormdrive connection for rotating the valvedisc ( grinding ) which is operated from the engineroom by hand, and a wheel for shutting the valve. You can find a picture on the U historia webside. On one side you see a square shaftend protruding out of the housing , that is the connection for handturning of the wormdrive. After the inboard valve the watercooled pipe makes a bend towards aft having a branch off pipe going forward to the ballast tank blowing panel in the controlroom and to the snortmast, I`m sure you know all about that, valves and pipejoining etc. There is an outer main exhaust valve  pretty much the same as the inboard valve but the rotation ( grinding) of the valvedisc is done by pneumatic motor having the worm drive spindle through the pressure hull. The valve is shut by a handwheel in the engineroom up under the pressure hull. On the bad photo and drawing below I have tried to indicate the components. The outer exhaustvalve is used for adjusting  the exhaust pressure in the ballast tank during exhaustblowing. After the outer valve the pipe turns into a silencer which from outside look like a watercooled barrel and the flanged to a smaller barrel which is a spark arrestor before going through the casing side.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Outer exhaustpipe.
I guess I should add that on the U historia picture you`ll see 3-4 drainpipes which drain the exhaustpipe both from the space between the outer and inner exhaustvalve as well as after the inner valve. These drains were frequently used and ended up in a funnel box at the lower aft engineroom bulkhead, in fact I believe together with the coolingwater drainage from the outlets of the engines as we discussed previously. On the picture you will see a bigger pipe connected, I believe this is the direct engine coolingwater pipe connection. See coolingwater sketch.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, when I was reading your post and see the words "The system consist of an inboard exhaustvalve in a watercooled housing going through the pressurehull." I just remember I have a few more pictures 

These are of U-534 a Type IX.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
That may be.  I think I have seen a drawing of the compensating box in the bottom of the saddletank. See below,  I made a rough pencil sketch indicating where to look for it you have more materials to look into than me.
Tore

This could be that pipe on the U-534

[NZSnowman]

Simon
Fuel compensating saddle ballasttanks
The valve b is a valve only in use when you select the mode you want to use the saddletanks,as fuel tanks or ballasttanks. It is a double seated valve with only two positions  either in direct contact with the head tank in the conningtower when the saddletank is used as fueltank or in direct contact with the sea when the saddletank is used as ballasttank. I believe it is controlled from outside the pressurehull under the casingdeck as it is not often used. I think it is a hatch in the deck for access.
Tore

Thanks Tore.

I have checked all my photo's and checked dive videos and found no evidence of these pipes. So this morning I started checking deck hatches and I think I can location the positions they enter the saddle tanks using the hatches. I will use this as my glide for the drawing.

Do you think the open end to the sea would have a pipe screen over the end to stop sea weeds etc entering the system?

I think I may have an explanation why I can not found any evidence of these pipes. I previous imagine those pipes would run just above the pressure hull, but now I believe there is not enough room, so the Germans run those pipes just under the wooden deck. As both the decking of U-352 and U-1021 are gone, this is why I can not found these pipes in the dive videos.

I had forgotten I had these photo's. Here are the small pipes running just under the decking

[tore]

Tore, when I was reading your post and see the words "The system consist of an inboard exhaustvalve in a watercooled housing going through the pressurehull." I just remember I have a few more pictures 

These are of U-534 a Type IX.

Well Simon I guess that`s it. I presume the VIIC and IX were pretty much alike on this detail. The cooling pipebends follow the same pattern as previously discussed, bypassing the flanges and other coolinwater jacket obstructions. Apart from these pipes every detail is hidden inside the pipe and housing.
Tore 

[tore]

Simon.
That may be.  I think I have seen a drawing of the compensating box in the bottom of the saddletank. See below,  I made a rough pencil sketch indicating where to look for it you have more materials to look into than me.
Tore

This could be that pipe on the U-534

Simon. Interesting detail, it certainly could be the box, I only miss the pipe out of the box. The idea was to have a buffer preventing contamination into the compensating system. Howewer the most important pipe for that was the fueloil venting pipe  which ended some 10 cm from the bottom of the ballast/fueltank. When fuelling, the ventcock was open and a guy watched the water coming out and stopped the fuelling when he discovered fuel coming out, but as the pipe ended 10 cm above the tankbottom you could never force fuel into the compensatingpipe as the fuel was flowing through the ventpipe leaving some 10 cm of water in the tankbottom saving the compensating system. This was  before pollution and environment questions was a topic. Anyhow see to it that your fuel ventingpipe is not leading all the way to the bottom
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Compensating expansionbox.
As to my yesterdays post I have given it a second thought. I believe the device and connecting pipe on the picture is too small for being the box. Estmating the capacity of the tank to be some 12 tonnes of fuel I guess it should have a volume about 150-200 liters ( almost an oilbarrel).
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Reverting to your drawing of the main ventconnection for saddle fuel/ballast tank 4 stb.and port. The intermediate valve is a blocking gatevalve for each saddle fuel/ballast tank permanently shut when in fuelmode. In view of a possible risk for somebody to ship this valve, I believe the wheel was removed.
Tore

[tore]

Trimvalve.
We are frequently missing a cross section drawing of the various components to get a better understanding how the various systems works, Simon has provided us with a genuine cross section of the doubleseated valve which clearly demonstrate the working of the valve. Although I believe the photo is from a IX, I guess it is the same for VIICs.
On the unusual photo below I believe you see a cut through of the aft port side of the control room showing the trimpump with the doubleseated trim valve.  The double seated valve could have only two positions, directing the water from fwd to aft or aft to fwd trimtanks. Allthough the display gives a first class demonstration of the working, it is an expensive way of showing it.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Reverting to your drawing of the main ventconnection for saddle fuel/ballast tank 4 stb.and port. The intermediate valve is a blocking gatevalve for each saddle fuel/ballast tank permanently shut when in fuelmode. In view of a possible risk for somebody to ship this valve, I believe the wheel was removed.
Tore

Fixed. Thanks, Tore.

[NZSnowman]

http://www.360cities.net/image/submarine-u-995-machine-room#268.60,11.26,110.0

Tore, a while ago we had a discuss about fuel filter and which one was a original fuel German filter.
 
Would you go for port or starboard?

[tore]

http://www.360cities.net/image/submarine-u-995-machine-room#268.60,11.26,110.0

Tore, a while ago we had a discuss about fuel filter and which one was a original fuel German filter.
 
Would you go for port or starboard?

Simon.
I would go for port, but that`s pure guesswork from my side.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Reverting to your drawing of the main ventconnection for saddle fuel/ballast tank 4 stb.and port. The intermediate valve is a blocking gatevalve for each saddle fuel/ballast tank permanently shut when in fuelmode. In view of a possible risk for somebody to ship this valve, I believe the wheel was removed.
Tore

Simon.
The blocking gatevalve is a special design as can be seen on the picture below. When open it retracts the disc ( wedge) 100% in the valve housing on top of the valve which mean the valvehousing is very high. The advantage is that when open it has a full flow passage as the valve disc is out of the way. For your drawing it means that the valvehousing looks like the photo below.

Fixed. Thanks, Tore.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Reverting to your drawing of the main ventconnection for saddle fuel/ballast tank 4 stb.and port. The intermediate valve is a blocking gatevalve for each saddle fuel/ballast tank permanently shut when in fuelmode. In view of a possible risk for somebody to ship this valve, I believe the wheel was removed.
Tore

Simon.
The blocking gatevalve is a special design as can be seen on the picture below. When open it retracts the disc ( wedge) 100% in the valve housing on top of the valve which mean the valvehousing is very high. The advantage is that when open it has a full flow passage as the valve disc is out of the way. For your drawing it means that the valvehousing looks like the photo below.

Fixed. Thanks, Tore.

I have update the valves to more closely match the valve found on U-534.

[tore]

Simon.
Excellent!

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

Here a update on the fuel system. I choose not to add the long fuel supply line in the top view as it cover up to much great detail so you can see the pipe opening at the forward end of the engine.

• Added the outlet pipe to the knife filters.
• Added the inlet pipes to the Fuel Pumps.
• Change fuel line to steel.
• Added fuel filters.
• Added colour codes.

[tore]

Simon.
It looks good. Realizing you no doubt are aware of the details I nevertheless mention:
As previously discussed the fuelcollecting box I believe should be almost the size of the hight oft the camshaft cover and the endcover of the exhaustmanifold has a relief valve. See picture below.
Tore

[tore]

Fuel/ballast saddletanks gatevalve.
As you see on the photo of U 534, the gatevalve obviously was shipped from another location, hence the linkage seen on the picture. However as
U 534 is IX we cannot assume the same on a VIIC. I guess till you have evidence otherwise it is better to leave the valve as you have drawn it.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Main drain valve.
From the amazing photos of U 534 is another component revealed, the details of the remote controlled main drain bottom valve. As can be seen from the photo below the valve is placed at the very bottom of the bilge, has as flanged suction pipestub and a rodconnection to the handle having a bevelgear connection to a shaft going through the bulkhead. The bevelgear is probably not applicable to the VIICs though.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Fuel/ballast saddletanks gatevalve.
As you see on the photo of U 534, the gatevalve obviously was shipped from another location, hence the linkage seen on the picture. However as
U 534 is IX we cannot assume the same on a VIIC. I guess till you have evidence otherwise it is better to leave the valve as you have drawn it.
Tore

Hi Tore

I also noted this linkage yesterday while updating my drawing. I search the few Type IX's plans I have to see if I could found a reason why they added a linkaga. I don't have the detail plan to tell why

Simon

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Main drain valve.
From the amazing photos of U 534 is another component revealed, the details of the remote controlled main drain bottom valve. As can be seen from the photo below the valve is placed at the very bottom of the bilge, has as flanged suction pipestub and a rodconnection to the handle having a bevelgear connection to a shaft going through the bulkhead. The bevelgear is probably not applicable to the VIICs though.
Tore

Hi Tore
 
Great spotting!
 
I will update my drawing to more closely match the photo

[tore]

Simon
Your drawings are really going to be a proper documentation with the painstaking patience and work you put into the accuracy of the details. There is an explanation and a reason why the details look as they do and that a valve is not just a valve placed at random,  your drawings shall tell the story.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Crankcase doors.
Now we are really going into details, but I happened to notice some small discrepancies on your bedplate/ crankcasedoors. As you see on the picture below, the stiffening knees between the crankcasedoors are ending a bit higher up between the doors and the narrow end cover up forward is protruding further down than the ordinary crankcase doors. The narrow frontcover is just a plate. Crayzy details hardly noticed by anybody but mee. 
Tore

• Corrected crank case doors alignment.
• Corrected crank case doors bolts layout.
• Corrected stiffening knees alignment and spacing.
• Corrected engine bolts alignment.
• Corrected engine plate thickness from 20 mm to 24 mm (original German measurement).
• Corrected engine casting alignment and outlay.

[tore]

Simon
Bedplate
Very good! This is really a ridiculous detailremark, But have you noticed the stiffening knees between the crankcasedoors are a bit higher than the others? See below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon
Bedplate
Very good! This is really a ridiculous detailremark, But have you noticed the stiffening knees between the crankcasedoors are a bit higher than the others? See below.
Tore

Tore, I believe this is a small different between the F46a6p and the F46a9p. I believe they are all the same size on the F46a6p. I initially base my drawing from the photo of the F46a9p and today while updating my drawing I check the original German drawings and compare it with the photo of the F46a9p and I noted a few little differences.   

[tore]

Simon.
I guess you are right, I checked the KNM Kauras bedplate and the stiffening knees are all on the same level.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Simon -
I really love the galvanized metal texture you pulled off on the image above! Well Done!

[NZSnowman]

Tore, a couple of qections about the head tank.

• I can not remember the size you suggested this tank would be?
• Does this tank needs to have maximum height within the casting or can the tank be located anywhere within the casting?
• This the vent on top of the tank open to the sea?

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10.htm

[tore]

Simon
Head tank.
The head tank is not a storage tank but act like a head buffer where the cooling water from the outboard exhaustsystem enters the fuelcompensating system. I would guess a capacity of something between 25 max. 75 liters, it is situated in the old tower casing. It is in direct contact with the sea, while submerged, via a swan neck pipe on the top. It should give a head at the day/setlingtank up under the pressure hull in the engine room of about 2-3 meter.
The filling of the compensating system is done by the ME cooling waterpumps.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Fuel oil compensating system

Hi Tore/Maciek

I am trying to track down this section of pipe that runs into FO Collecting Tank (Fig. 1.), where do you think I would found the valves f₁ and f₂ so I can location the starting postion of the pipe?


Fig. 1. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10.htm

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Fuel drain.
The main fuel drain on the engine goes along the engine just about where the cylindercovers meets the cylinder block, it collect the spill from each cylindercover via funnels and leads to the forward of the engines joins the drain (yellow) from the knifefilter before it drain into the fuel draintank. It is no T piece where the fuel filter enters the maindrain, just a welded branch with threads for the connection.
Tore

Fuel drain lines (Violet-Red-Violet) into FO Collecting Tank

[tore]

Simon.
Looks fine . As you are aware of, the collecting tank has a few other connections, the venting and the suction pipe to the hand coolingwater pump indicated on the drawing below. I don`t know for sure but I believe it is a cast pipefitting on the top of the tank collecting all the four drainpipe connections.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

I am trying to track down this section of pipe that runs into FO Collecting Tank (Fig. 1.), where do you think I would found the valves f₁ and f₂ so I can location the starting postion of the pipe?

I was not able to locate this valve in Diesel Engine Room. However, it maybe helpful - similar valve for the internal fuel oil tank 2i is located in control room, near the helmsman station:



--
Regards
Maciek

[tore]

Simon.
Fuel collecting tank
Unfortunately I do not have pictures of all the components and I guess the systemsketch is not very complete. To start with the inboard venting and levelcontrol of fuel saddletanks 2 port and stb. see sketch below. If you look at the last photo of the fueloil system page on the U historia webside, you will see two L shaped handles up under the pressurehull on port and stb.side, these are the boardvalves for the inboard venting and levelcheck of no 2 fuel saddletanks. They are marked 7 on the photo and the pipe 8. I guess they have exchanged the L handles as the 2nd valve has the ball and the board valve not.  Hopefully you have better photos than me to localize the details.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
As Maciek has been able to establish, the f1 and f2 valves is a double valve in one housing, it is an overpressure and  underpressure reliefvalve. I have not been able to localize it in the engineroom either. The confusing part of it is that the valve is located in the water compensating system which is with great effort designed so fueloil is not entering the system. In the fueltank, the compensatingpipe outlet is 10 cm below the ventingpipe and in a compensatingbox in order to prevent any fuel entering the system. The venting pipe is supposed to get a very small amount of fueloil when fuelling and the tank gets filled up . I believe the diagram I showed in my previous post is probably more reliable. I really don`t see why the drain from the reliefvalve in the seawater compensating system should end up in the fuelcollecting tank.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Fuel collecting tank
Unfortunately I do not have pictures of all the components and I guess the systemsketch is not very complete. To start with the inboard venting and levelcontrol of fuel saddletanks 2 port and stb. see sketch below. If you look at the last photo of the fueloil system page on the U historia webside, you will see two L shaped handles up under the pressurehull on port and stb.side, these are the boardvalves for the inboard venting and levelcheck of no 2 fuel saddletanks. They are marked 7 on the photo and the pipe 8. I guess they have exchanged the L handles as the 2nd valve has the ball and the board valve not.  Hopefully you have better photos than me to localize the details.
Tore

I was able to found the starboard funnel section     Have no idea the alignment and route the pipe takes once under to the floor, will have a educated guess on that

Tore, why have a open section within this system, was it so you can have a visual check? If so, why would you want to have a visual check?

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Fuel collecting tank
Unfortunately I do not have pictures of all the components and I guess the systemsketch is not very complete. To start with the inboard venting and levelcontrol of fuel saddletanks 2 port and stb. see sketch below. If you look at the last photo of the fueloil system page on the U historia webside, you will see two L shaped handles up under the pressurehull on port and stb.side, these are the boardvalves for the inboard venting and levelcheck of no 2 fuel saddletanks. They are marked 7 on the photo and the pipe 8. I guess they have exchanged the L handles as the 2nd valve has the ball and the board valve not.  Hopefully you have better photos than me to localize the details.
Tore

Tore, on the port side there is a gage tank, what is it, what does it look like, what is it for?

[tore]

Simon.
I don`t believe the visual check is the main thing, you could better have a sigthglass. Generally a breach in the pipeline (funnel) is to eliminate a possible undesired syphoning effect in the system.
Tore 

[SnakeDoc]

Quite a different topic - I have just noticed, that in the aft part of the control room, where should be located the hand wheels for the head valves of the diesel engine air induction trunk, ventilation air intake and exhaust, one of these valves - ventilation air intake is missing:

http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5378&p=i


It looks like after installing Schnorchel, the intake of the ventilation trunk was blanked. Moreover, the foot valve closing this trunk in the diesel engine room is still in place. I suppose, it was left to allow drain the trunk after accidental flooding.
Generally, such arrangements is like ventilation system on the "Schnorchel boats" - U-Boats type XXI and XXIII.




--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
I don`t believe the visual check is the main thing, you could better have a sigthglass. Generally a breach in the pipeline (funnel) is to eliminate a possible undesired syphoning effect in the system.
Tore

Thanks Tore! I learn something new every day 

[NZSnowman]

Quite a different topic - I have just noticed, that in the aft part of the control room, where should be located the hand wheels for the head valves of the diesel engine air induction trunk, ventilation air intake and exhaust, one of these valves - ventilation air intake is missing:

http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5378&p=i


It looks like after installing Schnorchel, the intake of the ventilation trunk was blanked. Moreover, the foot valve closing this trunk in the diesel engine room is still in place. I suppose, it was left to allow drain the trunk after accidental flooding.
Generally, such arrangements is like ventilation system on the "Schnorchel boats" - U-Boats type XXI and XXIII.




--
Regards
Maciek

Maciek, great found! I also noted this last week when I was updating my Schnorchel drawing and was wondering what it was. I was going to ask you what it was

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Fuel collecting tank
Unfortunately I do not have pictures of all the components and I guess the systemsketch is not very complete. To start with the inboard venting and levelcontrol of fuel saddletanks 2 port and stb. see sketch below. If you look at the last photo of the fueloil system page on the U historia webside, you will see two L shaped handles up under the pressurehull on port and stb.side, these are the boardvalves for the inboard venting and levelcheck of no 2 fuel saddletanks. They are marked 7 on the photo and the pipe 8. I guess they have exchanged the L handles as the 2nd valve has the ball and the board valve not.  Hopefully you have better photos than me to localize the details.
Tore

Think I now found the port side funnel section, but not a 100% sure

• The funnel is identical was the starboard side.
• The funnel is in the similar area as the starboard side.
• There seem to be a less two pipes running into this funnel.   

[NZSnowman]

Fuel oil compensating system

Hi Tore/Maciek

I am trying to track down this section of pipe that runs into FO Collecting Tank (Fig. 1.), where do you think I would found the valves f₁ and f₂ so I can location the starting postion of the pipe?


Fig. 1. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10.htm

I think this valve is very near or behind the auxiliary lubrication oil pump on the port side of the boat. This is why I believe we can not found it.

[NZSnowman]

Fuel Drain Lines (Violet-Red-Violet) into FO Collecting Tank

• Corrected the initial fuel drain pipes layout from the Gravity Tanks.
• Added fuel drain pipes from Fuel oil venting system
• Corrected Engine Lubricating Oil piping system.

Fig. 1. Fuel Drain system.


Fig. 2. All system (Lots of pipes and vlaves )

[tore]

Simon.
So far so good, but quite a lot remains and it is so easy to be confused. I guess the system layers is the solution as well as the check and completion of each separate system before putting it in the final drawing. The complete spaghetti pot shall be formidable, almost impossible to understand but the satisfaction of knowing it is correct is the reward. Keep going on the same track on your amazing project.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Coolingwater crossover.
Looking at your above system drawing showing the coolingwater crossover, I came to think about the execution of the crossover shut off valves. All 5 are gatevalves which we discussed previously, I seem to remember vaguely 3 of the valves (center) were operated by a T bar from a hatch in the floorplating that would mean no handle wheels. On U-995 the aluminium deckplating covers all hatches but if you have evidence otherwise you should ignore my frail memory, if not, it might be worth while to check.
Tore

[tore]

Changing the topic a bit. We discussed previously the board seavalve having more smaller direct connections and I just happen to see the regulating tank sea intake valve in the controlroom next to the main drainpump. The valvehousing is indeed equipped with two extra direct seaconnections, one for weedblowing and another for the evaporator. Note the low connections on the valvehousing. The small connection are in direct seaconnection even if the main valve is shut.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
So far so good, but quite a lot remains and it is so easy to be confused. I guess the system layers is the solution as well as the check and completion of each separate system before putting it in the final drawing. The complete spaghetti pot shall be formidable, almost impossible to understand but the satisfaction of knowing it is correct is the reward. Keep going on the same track on your amazing project.
Tore

Yes, you can correct without layers it would be a nightmare to keep track and to make changes to separate systems or sub-systems. Most system can be added to a single layer, however, it can be a nuisance if a pipe gone under or over another pipe on different layer.

It would really like to be able to add every systems within the engine drawing, but I think this will impossible with the current information we have. If I can add 80% of them I would be happy.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Coolingwater crossover.
Looking at your above system drawing showing the coolingwater crossover, I came to think about the execution of the crossover shut off valves. All 5 are gatevalves which we discussed previously, I seem to remember vaguely 3 of the valves (center) were operated by a T bar from a hatch in the floorplating that would mean no handle wheels. On U-995 the aluminium deckplating covers all hatches but if you have evidence otherwise you should ignore my frail memory, if not, it might be worth while to check.
Tore

I rechecked the U-570 Design Books and you are correct. I will update my drawing.

I was checking some of my u-boat books and I came across this picture from U-Boote Crews: 1939 - 1945 by Jean Delize, it shows two 'T' handles hatches within the floor plating.


U-Boote Crews: 1939 - 1945 by Jean Delize

[tore]

simon.
I guess this is the thing.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi


Take a look at the floor in the engine room of U-505 - there are a lot of these hatches:
http://archive.msichicago.org/exhibit/U505/virtualtour/vr_tour/movie_diesel.html


--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi


Take a look at the floor in the engine room of U-505 - there are a lot of these hatches:
http://archive.msichicago.org/exhibit/U505/virtualtour/vr_tour/movie_diesel.html


--
Regards
Maciek

Thanks Maciek!

I am starting to think that they used them a lot, this would make sense.

[NZSnowman]

'T' handles hatches within the floor plating

[tore]

Simon.
This seems to be pretty close to how I remember it. The pipe systemsketch indicates indeed the decklevel extension of the three valvespindles. The deckplates were as far as I remember fixed to the supports by screws and was rather cumbersome and timeconsuming to open.
Tore

[tore]

Seawater crossovervalves.
Below is Simons photo of U 534 showing the extensionrods of the valves. I believe the valves were of quite similar execution on the VIICs. 
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Seawater crossovervalves.
Below is Simons photo of U 534 showing the extensionrods of the valves. I believe the valves were of quite similar execution on the VIICs. 
Tore

Tore, great found!! 

[NZSnowman]

Seawater crossovervalves.
Below is Simons photo of U 534 showing the extensionrods of the valves. I believe the valves were of quite similar execution on the VIICs. 
Tore

Updated the valve this morning.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore/Maciek

Do you think were was either words or symbols on the top surface of the 'T' handles hatches within the floor plating to show the way to open/closed the valve? Something like below.
 

[tore]

Simon.
Sorry I don`t remember so my advice is based on a marine engineers assumption. Signs telling which way to turn to open or shut an ordinary valve would be superfluous in an engineroom. I guess a sign would rather indicate which valve the rod belonged to.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Sorry I don`t remember so my advice is based on a marine engineers assumption. Signs telling which way to turn to open or shut an ordinary valve would be superfluous in an engineroom. I guess a sign would rather indicate which valve the rod belonged to.
Tore

Thanks

[tore]

Simon.
Crossovervalves.
A small detail. I guess the valve spindles are a bit longer and it might be an universal joint between the spindle and the extension rod if you can figure out the details on the photo below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Crossovervalves.
A small detail. I guess the valve spindles are a bit longer and it might be an universal joint between the spindle and the extension rod if you can figure out the details on the photo below.
Tore

I think you are correct, Tore. I rechecked my photo's and it look like a universal joint top & bottom of the spindle. I wonder if the Germans did this allow a little bit of movement when under depth charging

I just checked the length of my spindle and it was 535 mm I would not imagine then would be to long, but I do not know for sure.
 
I will update my drawing again in the morning

I was thinking today it would be great to see a current photo

[tore]

Simon.
I believe the connection rods were supported only in the upper upper part to the floorplates which as not a very stable support and could create a bend, of course depthcharging could make it worse.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
Valvespindle.
I guess we are talking about different spindle. What I mean is the spindle tap coming out of the valvehousing. May be it should be about 70-80 mm.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
I guess a part of the confusion is that on the top of the valvehousing it is a small casing for the spindle stuffingbox having a yoke which is pressing the packing down in the housing by two nuts and the spindle is some 70mm above that stuffingbox before connecting to the universal coupling.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, how does this look like now?

[NZSnowman]

Tore, do you know if the wooden deck on KNM Kaura was replace ? Or was it the original German decking.

[tore]

Tore, how does this look like now?

Simon this will do ok!
Tore

[tore]

Tore, do you know if the wooden deck on KNM Kaura was replace ? Or was it the original German decking.

Simon.
I guess some of the deck was partly renewed, particulary in the area of the wintergarden and the storage containers forward of the snortmast.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

Here a total realignment of the piping of the Fuel oil compensating system. Now to start on the piping inside the engine room

[tore]

Hi Simon.
It seams to be very good. Seeing the hatch I just came to remember an intricate system of rods connecting the steelhatches to the wooden deck hatches so they could be opened in one operation. Anyhow this system was used for the galley hatch and fwd torpedo loadinghatch which were crewaccesses while alongside. Pictures below, on one of the photos you can see a guy operating one of the external valves from the deck by the T bar.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

I am trying to locate the 'FO Feed Pump' line, do you think I have located the corrent line in the photo below?

UPDATED: Tore, now after taking a 2nd look, this the FO Feed Pump line the line that runs along the the engine?


Source: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate9.htm


Source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon.
It seams to be very good. Seeing the hatch I just came to remember an intricate system of rods connecting the steelhatches to the wooden deck hatches so they could be opened in one operation. Anyhow this system was used for the galley hatch and fwd torpedo loadinghatch which were crewaccesses while alongside. Pictures below, on one of the photos you can see a guy operating one of the external valves from the deck by the T bar.
Tore

Thanks for the pictures and information.

[tore]

Simon.
If you mean the enginedriven fueloil boosterpump which is fed from the overhead daytank remember the fueloil system sketch is showing the MAN execution and the GW layout has the fuel boosterpump forward as previously discussed. The suction line from the daytank is the dominant black pipe going along the side of the engine and is not shown on the sketch. The pipe you refer to (violet arrow) is the enginetop drain pipe and is almost hidden going along the engine at the level where the cylindercovers meets the cylinderblock.See pictures below.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
I`m not sure if everything is quite clear so here is an additional sketch which I hope might make it a bit more understandable.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Tore 

This helps heaps! Will update my drawing tomorrow, working on new engine covers this morning.

[NZSnowman]

Tore, the cover bolts, should I have them bolt head or nut side out?
 
As on U-995 they are allsorts http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5376&p=i

[tore]

Simon.
Of course I don`t remember but according to a photo of U 178   the nuts  were out. See picture below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Of course I don`t remember but according to a photo of U   the nuts  were out. See picture below.
Tore

Thanks

[tore]

Simon.
I just noticed somehow in the reference to the photo the U number is missing. The photo is from the engine room of U 178 just for the record as appropriate for all scientific papers .
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

I was able to follow the FO drain line (below and orange), however, this is different than that you posted I am following the worng line

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Of course I don`t remember but according to a photo of U 178   the nuts  were out. See picture below.
Tore

New Camshaft  covers, The old covers can be seen in the post above.

[NZSnowman]

The other day when updating the Camshaft covers I had to used the side view to make sure I had the correct alignment. So I update a little more of my side view

[tore]

Hi Tore

I was able to follow the FO drain line (below and orange), however, this is different than that you posted I am following the worng line



Simon

Simon.
It might be two drainpipes to the draintank, fwd and aft. I don`t have a proper photo to ascertain the lay out.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Of course I don`t remember but according to a photo of U 178   the nuts  were out. See picture below.
Tore

New Camshaft  covers, The old covers can be seen in the post above.

Simon
Beautiful Xmas decoration.   Have you noticed that only the centercover has 3 nuts whereas the 2 others have 4 ? I guess you had the correct configuration on the old drawing.
Tore

[tore]

The other day when updating the Camshaft covers I had to used the side view to make sure I had the correct alignment. So I update a little more of my side view

Simon.
Very good, but don`t forget  foldable step along the engine.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Of course I don`t remember but according to a photo of U 178   the nuts  were out. See picture below.
Tore

New Camshaft  covers, The old covers can be seen in the post above.

Simon
Beautiful Xmas decoration.   Have you noticed that only the centercover has 3 nuts whereas the 2 others have 4 ? I guess you had the correct configuration on the old drawing.
Tore

Thanks, Tore. I did not noted the number of nuts. Fixes now.

[tore]

Hi Simon.
It seems to be very good. Seeing the hatch I just came to remember an intricate system of rods connecting the steelhatches to the wooden deck hatches so they could be opened in one operation. Anyhow this system was used for the galley hatch and fwd torpedo loadinghatch which were crewaccesses while alongside. Pictures below, on one of the photos you can see a guy operating one of the external valves from the deck by the T bar.
Tore

Thanks for the pictures and information.

[NZSnowman]

Tore, check out this diesel engine

[NZSnowman]

http://www.360cities.net/image/submarine-u-995-machine-room#268.60,11.26,110.0

Tore, a while ago we had a discuss about fuel filter and which one was a original fuel German filter.
 
Would you go for port or starboard?

Simon.
I would go for port, but that`s pure guesswork from my side.
Tore

Found evidence that the post side fuel filters are very likely the original German filters





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahle_GmbH

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

I was able to follow the FO drain line (below and orange), however, this is different than that you posted I am following the worng line



Simon

Simon.
It might be two drainpipes to the draintank, fwd and aft. I don`t have a proper photo to ascertain the lay out.
Tore

Tore, there seem to be two styles of funnels, it may possibly suggest alteration to this line.

Also check my pictures and found a photo that very strong suggest that this line is collected at both the aft and stern.

Do you think both drain lines are original German, if I had to choose one drain line I would think that the forward line this the original German line.

[tore]

Simon
Hard to say, but I should say it is original. If you have a closer look you may see the line has its highest point in the middle of the engine , where the two cyliderblocks are flanged together. From this point the forward half of the pipe inclines down forward and the other down  aft.
Tore

[tore]

Tore, check out this diesel engine

Simon.
35 years of my life I have been working with this kind of engines. They are massive. Cylinder bore of almost 1000mm and stroke of 1800mm, a grown up man could easely stand within the cylinder .
Tore

[tore]

http://www.360cities.net/image/submarine-u-995-machine-room#268.60,11.26,110.0

Tore, a while ago we had a discuss about fuel filter and which one was a original fuel German filter.

 
Would you go for port or starboard?

Simon.
I would go for port, but that`s pure guesswork from my side.
Tore

Found evidence that the post side fuel filters are very likely the original German filters





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahle_GmbH

Simon.
Nice to have confirmation my guesswork was right.
Tore

[tore]

To all my readers of my mailbox.
With the picture of my farm in the wilderness, in some places we have up to 4 m of snow right now, I wish everybody happy holydays.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Lubricating oil collecting and distributing manifold

Tore, how does this work, If you open the valve with the handle, its open and closes both valves at the same time??


http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm

[NZSnowman]

To all my readers of my mailbox.
With the picture of my farm in the wilderness, in some places we have up to 4 m of snow right now, I wish everybody happy holydays.
Tore

Looks great! We did not get any snow for Christmas, we got +25

[tore]

Simon.
Luboil returnpipe.
This valvechest is selecting which the luboil returntank is connected the engine. If you shut one valve the other opens, thus you have always a drain connection in the system.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
We have rigth now -9 degrees C and just got 30 cm fresh snow during the nigth and pitch dark at 9 oclock a.m, if you miss the snow just come over. 5 days ago 3 passengertrains  were stuck in the snow for hours and we have already had the first avalanche killing people.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Luboil returnpipe.
This valvechest is selecting which the luboil returntank is connected the engine. If you shut one valve the other opens, thus you have always a drain connection in the system.
Tore

Thanks, Tore. I will update my drawing tomorrow. I have to update these pipes so I can correctly lay down the FO drain lines.

[NZSnowman]

Engine lubricating oil system

A total redraw of the pipe between the Engine lubricating oil manifold and the Collecting Tank.

[tore]

Simon.
As usual the drawings are first class. The luboilsystem might be a bit tricky as there are so many alternatives. It might be easier to take the system step by step, starting with the basics..
Below is a colour sketch of the basic system leaving temporarely the secondary systems out. It looks to me as if you have introduced the luboilsentrifuge systems into the luboilsystem having pipes going through the manholecovers of the luboil systemtanks.  I am not sure if the pipes were fitted on the cover. May be you should try to make a layer with the basics first and then add the other alternative systems later.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Luboil connections main engine.
Below is a crossection drawing of the main engine showing how the internal luboil system works. A luboilpipe on the outboard side, (not interfering with the crankcase doors) leads oil through drillings in the A frames (red) to the main bearings where it goes through drillings in the crankshaft to the crankpin bearings, then down in the crankcase bottom and drains via the lowest point fore and aft to the external drainsystem. Hopefully you are able to trace the external supplypipe along the engine, unfortunately I don`t have any picture showing same.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
As usual the drawings are first class. The luboilsystem might be a bit tricky as there are so many alternatives. It might be easier to take the system step by step, starting with the basics..
Below is a colour sketch of the basic system leaving temporarely the secondary systems out. It looks to me as if you have introduced the luboilsentrifuge systems into the luboilsystem having pipes going through the manholecovers of the luboil systemtanks.  I am not sure if the pipes were fitted on the cover. May be you should try to make a layer with the basics first and then add the other alternative systems later.
Tore

Thanks Tore, the colour map is very useful! It help me to understand and make sence of it

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Luboil connections main engine.
Below is a crossection drawing of the main engine showing how the internal luboil system works. A luboilpipe on the outboard side, (not interfering with the crankcase doors) leads oil through drillings in the A frames (red) to the main bearings where it goes through drillings in the crankshaft to the crankpin bearings, then down in the crankcase bottom and drains via the lowest point fore and aft to the external drainsystem. Hopefully you are able to trace the external supplypipe along the engine, unfortunately I don`t have any picture showing same.
Tore

Again a big thanks! I was wondering how this work

[NZSnowman]

Luboil connections main engine

Tore, is the green arrow is...

• 'b' Pressure reducing valve, 3 > 1.5 atmospheres or....
• 'h' Relief valve?

And the orange arrow is the 'Thermometer'

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm


Source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

[NZSnowman]

Luboil connections main engine

Q2. On the plate 14 the 'Luboil connections main engine' line connect to the supercharger, this is incorrect?

[tore]

Simon.
The luboil pipes on fwrd engine is a challenge. I cannot remember every details and don`t have  many pictures so I have to make some guesses. Down below is my idea of the system, feel free to change it as I`m not 100% sure, but may be you are able to follow the pipes on other photos.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
The valve indicated by you with green arrow is wrongly marked as "filter" on the U-historia photos so don`t get confused. As can be seen on my picture above I believe this migth be the pump relief ( safety) valve marked "h" on my colourmarked systemdrawing. The colours on the drawings should match the colourindication on the photo.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.

Luboil connections main engine

Q2. On the plate 14 the 'Luboil connections main engine' line connect to the supercharger, this is incorrect?

Simon.
Contrary to the MAN turbocharger system, having a separate luboilsystem, the GW engine having a mechanical supercharger takes luboil from the enginesystem indicated on the sketch below . On the fwd end is a torsional vibrationdamper which needs luboil from the system as well,  might get it from main bearingsupply no 1 through drilling in the crankshaft. Drain from vibrationdamper yellow marked on systemdrawing below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.

Luboil connections main engine

Q2. On the plate 14 the 'Luboil connections main engine' line connect to the supercharger, this is incorrect?

Simon.
Contrary to the MAN turbocharger system, having a separate luboilsystem, the GW engine having a mechanical supercharger takes luboil from the enginesystem indicated on the sketch below . On the fwd end is a torsional vibrationdamper which needs luboil from the system as well,  might get it from main bearingsupply no 1 through drilling in the crankshaft. Drain from vibrationdamper yellow marked on systemdrawing below.
Tore

Have not idea how luboilsystem was contacted to the supercharger, so left this end of the pipe open for now.

[NZSnowman]

[tore]

Simon.
It looks OK to me. When you fit the charging air receiver  below the exhaust receiver you probably don`t see much of it, but it is there.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Below is my indication of the luboil pipes on the Roots blower ( supercharger). The system contains a double cone frictionclutch as well which needs luboil.
Tore

[tore]

Roots blower.
Below is a sketch showing the working of the blower. On the end you have a geardrive accurately timed so the rotors don`t touch. This gearbox needs the luboil supply.
On the photo you see a modern version beltdriven. Even today they have the external oil supply pipes.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Secondary luboil system.
Next step is the secondary luboil system as indicated on the sketch below. From the luboilpump pressure side oil passes a discharge checkvalve "b" to the cooler. The cooler has a ventpipe with a valve " l" for venting, the pipe is connected to the drain ( yellow). After the cooler is a selector cock "c1" enabling a crossover connection to stb/port engine. Further before the pressure reductionvalve 3>1,5 kg/cm2 is a branch off to the governor servomotor for the fuelrack, the servo motor needs higher pressure than the enginelubrication, after the servomotor to drain as previously discussed.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Emergency luboil system.
In case of a failure on the attached engine luboil pumps it is possible to use the fuel transferpump as emergency lub oilpump as indicated on the sketch below. Suctionpipes are coloured blue. Suction is taken separately either from port or stb systemtank via an OPZ valve ( 3position valve) in the tank as previously discussed. The centrifugal fuel transferpump,  deliver   red, to the valvechest and then to the engine pump pressureline. The checkvalve stops the entrance to the enginepump and the emergency pump delivers to the luboilcooler and then the standard system.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
It looks OK to me. When you fit the charging air receiver  below the exhaust receiver you probably don`t see much of it, but it is there.
Tore

Tore, you are right, you will not see must of the pipe, but it there

[NZSnowman]

Roots blower.
Below is a sketch showing the working of the blower. On the end you have a geardrive accurately timed so the rotors don`t touch. This gearbox needs the luboil supply.
On the photo you see a modern version beltdriven. Even today they have the external oil supply pipes.
Tore

Thanks for this information! I have always wonder how this worked and looked

[tore]

Simon.
Lub oil handpump system.
The final "layer" would be the hand pumpsystem. The hand pump at stb side towards the batteryswitch bulkhead takes suction from valve "k" at the valvechest and via the blue pipe and valve "g"  Pressure pipe , red, via cock "h" to the daily luboil consumption tank ( for filling handcarried oilcans) situated at the same bulkhead, further to the valve chest and into the cooler and engine luboil system.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Engine Lubricating Oil System continue to grow

Piping between the Engine lubricating oil manifold and the Auxiliary Lubricating Oil Pump

[tore]

Simon.
Your are coming along nicely with the luboilsystem. I am not sure about the smaller pipeline with a valve touching  the pressurehull bilge. See my markings below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

What smaller pipe is a older version and will be update soon. I just need to workout what the valve look like first.

Also next to the Auxiliary Lubricating Oil Pump, are two lines named "FO Transfer Line", where do these go, I can not found where they go?

[tore]

What smaller pipe is a older version and will be update soon. I just need to workout what the valve look like first.

Also next to the Auxiliary Lubricating Oil Pump, are two lines named "FO Transfer Line", where do these go, I can not found where they go?

Simon-
The pump is primarily a fueloil transfer pump, which is used as an emergency luboil pump . Below is the connections to the relevant valvechest. As you see it is even used for pumping fuel from shore to the fueloil bunkertanks.
Tore.

[NZSnowman]

Tore, this section of pipe is mark as 'high pressure' should it not be mark as 'low pressure'?


http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

When you have time could you please check my pipes, thanks.

[tore]

Tore, this section of pipe is mark as 'high pressure' should it not be mark as 'low pressure'?


http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm

Simon
Absolutely!
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Valvechests.
May be an explanation of a valvechest makes a difficult system easier to understand. As seen below the valvechest has 5 chambers, two suction, drain    ( blue) and pressure, discharge (red) and three distribution chambers. There are two connections to the suctionchamber and two connections to the dischargechamber. By the use of 6 valves in the chest you are able to connect the various pipelines either to suction(drain) or pressure ( discharge) chambers.
Below I have tried to visualize how the system works leaving out the fuelsystem to simplify.
Tore 

[tore]

Simon.
The blue and yellow colours were not very readable so I have overwritten the text below.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
I believe the valvechest for filling the luboil storage tanks is placed just underneath the main luboil valvechest as shown on the photo below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Valvechests.
May be an explanation of a valvechest makes a difficult system easier to understand. As seen below the valvechest has 5 chambers, two suction, drain    ( blue) and pressure, discharge (red) and three distribution chambers. There are two connections to the suctionchamber and two connections to the dischargechamber. By the use of 6 valves in the chest you are able to connect the various pipelines either to suction(drain) or pressure ( discharge) chambers.
Below I have tried to visualize how the system works leaving out the fuelsystem to simplify.
Tore

Thanks Tore!

Very useful, will start updating my drawing this morning.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
I believe the valvechest for filling the luboil storage tanks is placed just underneath the main luboil valvechest as shown on the photo below.
Tore

Great found! I been looking for this

[NZSnowman]

Engine Lubricating Oil System continue to grow

Piping between the Engine lubricating oil manifold and the Lubricating Oil Hand Pump. I was not able to workout the original German pipe layout for this section , so this is my best estimation. I am sure this will change over time as I keep adding more piping, valves etc...

[tore]

Simon.
So far so good, I`ll see if I can figure out more details on the pipe. I am not sure about the valve/ pipebranch for the fwd bilge, drain/floodconnection, I thought it was more forward, port side of the galley/engineroom door.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
So far so good, I`ll see if I can figure out more details on the pipe. I am not sure about the valve/ pipebranch for the fwd bilge, drain/floodconnection, I thought it was more forward, port side of the galley/engineroom door.
Tore

Tore, this is a very good question about valve/pipe branch for the fwd bilge. I have never like this section of pipe but I thought I was following the plans. However, I just rechecked them and now I can not found it now on the plan. I will look into this in detail in the morning.

[tore]

Simon.
Sometime the landscape doesn`t fit the map. My handpump theory is the hoseconnection for hand pumpsuction is placed near the main valvechest as can be seen on the photo below. The rest of the system is pretty obvious as can be seen on the other pictures, the blue colour had to be change into purple as it disappeared in the bad qualityphoto. Note the tiny details with the luboil consumption tank, it was topped up by the handpump and used for filling the handcarried oilcans (rockerarms lubrication) that`s why the two tiny cocks and the driptray underneath the tank.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Checking my morning post I see the 3rd photo of the luboil pumpsystem somehow did not turned up in the attached pictures , so down below it is.
Tore 

[tore]

Off the topics.
Today the Royal Norwegian Navy is conducting a new investigation of the famous U-864, a IXC which was sunk by the Royal Navy's submarine HMS Venturer February 1945 on her maiden voyage 2-3 nautical miles off the Norwegian westcoast. All hands, 73 men lost . On the net are extensive details of a fascinating hunt for the U864. U-864 was on a secret mission " Cesare" transporting Messesmitt jet engineparts to Japan as well as 65 tonnes of mercury and the wreck was discovered by the Royal Norwegian Navy October 2003. She is laying in two parts at approximately 150 meters depth. Even today a German WW2 submarine is creating difficulties, as corrosion increase the risk of mercury leaking into the sea, up to this date 13 million US dollars has been spent to figure out what to do with the mercury leakage. Even with the sophisticated equipment we have from the offshore oil drilling it is a complicated and expensive task to raise it. Not to speak of the the fact it is a war grave. The fishing in the area is prohibited and a tug of war is going on between the local people and the authorities what to do with the mercury. May be the renewed investigation shall find a solution.
Tore

[SG]

Tore, times ago i came across a report about U-864 in the news on some italian TV channel and was wondering what was the present state of the mercury monitoring like. Obviously, once given the new months ago, no italian TV cared about updating people on the subject anymore. At the time the readings of mercury concentration in the wather were reported as normal, thus not posing a real threat to sea species. How's the story developing?

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore,


I have got another off-topic question. The schnorchel mast on KNM Kaura was elevated by means of hydraulic power taken from the installation for periscopes hoists. I wonder, if there was any emergency procedures, in case of damaging hydraulic installation (the periscopes could be raised and lowered by hand). When almost all systems were backed-up, it would be strange to be not able operate schorchel without hydraulic power. Maybe there was some kind of hand pump to build the pressure in installation?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Tore, times ago i came across a report about U-864 in the news on some italian TV channel and was wondering what was the present state of the mercury monitoring like. Obviously, once given the new months ago, no italian TV cared about updating people on the subject anymore. At the time the readings of mercury concentration in the wather were reported as normal, thus not posing a real threat to sea species. How's the story developing?

SG
Since 2004 annual monitoring of mercury content both in the fishes,seaweeds and sediments is carried out. So far no dangerous levels has been found. The trouble is they have not been able to check or monitor the state of corrosion on the steelcontainers where the mercury is stored. Right now they are having a new attempt to establish the condition. In the meantime fishing and eating seafood from the area is prohibited. This is of course a highly unsatisfactory situation for the local people. The main concern today is the fuel leakage which probably shall happen before a possible mercury leakage.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek.
I have tried to remember a possible handoperation of the snortmast, but cannot remember any such thing. A possible hand rising of the mast would require considerable power. I don`t believe we had an alternative risingdevice.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Off the topics.
Today the Royal Norwegian Navy is conducting a new investigation of the famous U-864, a IXC which was sunk by the Royal Navy's submarine HMS Venturer February 1945 on her maiden voyage 2-3 nautical miles off the Norwegian westcoast. All hands, 73 men lost . On the net are extensive details of a fascinating hunt for the U864. U-864 was on a secret mission " Cesare" transporting Messesmitt jet engineparts to Japan as well as 65 tonnes of mercury and the wreck was discovered by the Royal Norwegian Navy October 2003. She is laying in two parts at approximately 150 meters depth. Even today a German WW2 submarine is creating difficulties, as corrosion increase the risk of mercury leaking into the sea, up to this date 13 million US dollars has been spent to figure out what to do with the mercury leakage. Even with the sophisticated equipment we have from the offshore oil drilling it is a complicated and expensive task to raise it. Not to speak of the the fact it is a war grave. The fishing in the area is prohibited and a tug of war is going on between the local people and the authorities what to do with the mercury. May be the renewed investigation shall find a solution.
Tore

I have download and read several of the reports on U-864 and they are very detail. I can see where some of the 13 million dollars went.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Checking my morning post I see the 3rd photo of the luboil pumpsystem somehow did not turned up in the attached pictures , so down below it is.
Tore

Thanks Tore for the picture I been looking for the LO consumption Tank.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Sometime the landscape doesn`t fit the map. My handpump theory is the hoseconnection for hand pumpsuction is placed near the main valvechest as can be seen on the photo below. The rest of the system is pretty obvious as can be seen on the other pictures, the blue colour had to be change into purple as it disappeared in the bad qualityphoto. Note the tiny details with the luboil consumption tank, it was topped up by the handpump and used for filling the handcarried oilcans (rockerarms lubrication) that`s why the two tiny cocks and the driptray underneath the tank.
Tore

A nice found on the hand pump suction house connection.
 
Yesterday while I was updating my drawing I could not found this house connection on the starboard side on the boat but found one on the port side. I was not sure if this was the hand pump suction house connection.
 
I will update my drawing tomorrow, as I am off to a friend wedding today.

[tore]

Off topics
U 864 type IXD2.
For those who might be interested. The Norwegian authorities has estimated the cost of rising the submarine to be approximately 1.5 billion NOK equivalent to US

[NZSnowman]

Off topics
U 864 type IXD2.
For those who might be interested. The Norwegian authorities has estimated the cost of rising the submarine to be approximately 1.5 billion NOK equivalent to US

[tore]

I guess you have a point Simon. However I believe this is the way they are doing it with nuclear disasters like Tschernobyl. the North Sea is like a Swiss cheese with many empty dry oilwells, why not utilise those wells. One of the tasks for the present investigation is to evaluate the condition of the mercuryflasks if they are at all movable. An interesting submarine detail is the way these 65 tonnes of mercury steelflasks are stored on board the U 864, they are stored in the box keel, I never realised they used the keel as cargohold. I bet the boat was pretty stiff at sea with 65 tonnes in the keel.
Tore

[tore]

Simon .
Luboil handpump.
A small correction to the luboil handpump system. The cock at the pumpoutlet is not the supplypipe, but a ventcock ( green colour). The supply
 ( pressure)pipe goes behind the pumps,dotted red, and have a branch off to the tank not visible behind the coolingwater handpump and to the top of the luboil consumptiontank having a smallvalve on the top.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

I guess you have a point Simon. However I believe this is the way they are doing it with nuclear disasters like Tschernobyl. the North Sea is like a Swiss cheese with many empty dry oilwells, why not utilise those wells. One of the tasks for the present investigation is to evaluate the condition of the mercuryflasks if they are at all movable. An interesting submarine detail is the way these 65 tonnes of mercury steelflasks are stored on board the U 864, they are stored in the box keel, I never realised they used the keel as cargohold. I bet the boat was pretty stiff at sea with 65 tonnes in the keel.
Tore

I think it was in "U-Boat Far From Home" by David Stevens, that I read that near the end of the war it was common for Type IX's to come home to German from Japan and German ports in Malaya and East Indies with there cargohold full of rubber or tin.

[tore]

Simon .
My last post on the luboil handpump was mutilated, I have corrected same just now.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Engine Lubricating Oil System

• Transfer storage tank manifold to Transfer storage tank 1.
• Tweaked the alignment of the line to the Lubricating Oil Hand Pump so I could put in the line to the Transfer to storage tank 1 manifold (Starting to get very tight here!!!)
• Added the hand pump suction house connection.
• Added the line to LO Consumption Tank. (I have decided not to add the LO Consumption Tank as its covers to much of the detail below it).
• Added the missing valve

[tore]

Simon
You are only at the starting point to fill the spaghetti bowl . An important pipe is the pipe through the pressurehull used for filling (bunkering) new luboil and to deliver (discharge) old. The pipe connects to the center of the valvechest, even that one between the chest and the bulkhead. The two centervalves connects the pipe respectively to the pressure and suction side of the pump. The pipe with coarsefilter and boardvalve is very visible on the port side of the engineroom-galleydoor going to the top of the pressurehull.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
It is quite a puzzle to accommodate all the pipes and valves but may be you should try to  distinguish the handpump hoseconnection with valve from the main valvechest as it is not a part of same. The handwheel of the hoseconnection valve is not in place on U 995, but the valvehouse is visible.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Here the new alignment and new valve of the drainage system.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate6.htm

[tore]

Simon.
Drainagesysystem.
Much better!
Tore

[NZSnowman]

I found it hard to believe the Germans design a U-boat without CAD. I am amazes how they would leave enough room for the next pipe. Two great example of this are the valves for the Cooling-water system (you can see how Engine Lubricating Oil pipes arc and bend around the valves) and the other is leaving room for the forward drainage valve.

[NZSnowman]

Heard somewhere that there were 40,000 set of drawings for the Type XXI

[tore]

Simon.
I guess now you have an idea why the left out the valvewheels and have rod extensions to the floorplates.
Tore

[tore]

Heard somewhere that there were 40,000 set of drawings for the Type XXI

It could very well be, but I believe complicated pipe models were used as well.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Heard somewhere that there were 40,000 set of drawings for the Type XXI

It could very well be, but I believe complicated pipe models were used as well.
Tore

In The U-Boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines by Eberhard Rossler, were are several pictures of wood models of new bridge conversion.

The US Virginia class was the first US sub to be totally design by CAD, all previous US sub

[tore]

I remember in the shipyards drawing offices there were fairly large models of pipeline layouts where the various pipes had different colours. A lot of work and materials could be saved by optimising the the design. I was involved in supplying large dieselengines to the shipyards and we made a proposal of the pipings the way we wanted to have the lay out and the yards designed the systems according to their needs within the requirement of the enginebuilder and sent it to the enginebuilder for approval. It would be nice to have such a pipeline model of the VIICs rigth now !
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

I have run into a problem with the drain valve.

I place the valve at the drain pipe level and run a linkage to the handle that we can see in the Galley. However, to reach the handle in the engine room, its about 1300 mm below the deck and too far to be reach by hand

Do you think they place the engine room valve handle higher up the linkage?

[tore]

Simon.
I don`t think so. The main purpose of having  an opening handle in an adjacent room (galley) is to be able to open the engineroom drain valve  from the galley in case the engine room was flooded. Under normal circumstances you could easily open the engineroom bilgevalve by the galleyhandle some 20 cm away. I believe we mostly used the aft bilge drain valve.Thus in spite of the systemsketch I believe this valve was only opened from the galley.
Tore 

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
I don`t think so. The main purpose of having  an opening handle in an adjacent room (galley) is to be able to open the engineroom drain valve in from the galley in case the engine room was flooded. Under normal circumstances you could easily open the engineroom bilgevalve by the galleyhandle some 20 cm away. I believe we mostly used the aft bilge drain valve.Thus in spite of the systemsketch I believe this valve was only opened from the galley.
Tore

Thanks, Tore.

• Added Inlet line
• Added line between the Transfer storage tank manifold and Transfer storage tank 1.

[tore]

Simon.
I like it. A very small detail. Top cover of the coarsefilter for the luboil filling line has a transom with a tophandle. You see a good photo of this detail on u historia engineroom section.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
I like it. A very small detail. Top cover of the coursefilter for the luboil filling line has a transom with a tophandle. You see a good photo of this detail on u historia engineroom section.
Tore

Thanks Tore I had no good photo's of the course filter, so I will add the top handle tomorrow.

I have not be able to locate the main LO Manifold (Valve 'a' & 'a1') but I imagine its between the two coolers & centre line of the boat, Tore can you remember?
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm

[tore]

Simon.
Valves a1 and a2.
I guess you are right, between the cooler. I should think these valves got an extension to the floorplates as well.
Tore

[tore]

Coarsefilters.
Just a word on the coarsefilters. These rough filters designed to give minimum of resistance, are often installed in supplypipes which takes deliveries from outside the boat in order to protect transferpumps etc from " nuts and bolts" entering the system. Sometimes we got impurities particulary when fueling which really were nuts and bolts, so it was highly justfied to have these filters.
Tore

[dbauer]

   Hey!
Are you going to do the plumbing for the Head too?!!? Or have you already done that? LOL....
Regards,
Dan

[tore]

Hi Dan!
The plumbing of the heads is very simple although not so easy to understand sometimes for some visitors.  We had a few blowback incidents with ladies during coctailparties on board in spite of giving detailed explanations of the plumbing .
Tore

[dbauer]

   Hi!
As they alawys told me" If all else fails, follow the instructions!"
Regards,
Dan

[NZSnowman]

Tore, just double checking, the LO gear pump is attach to the front of the engine.

[tore]

Simon.
Yes.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Sad news Tore. I think I gone as far as I can on the original German pipe layout and arrangement with the information & drawing I have. From this point forward all new piping I add to the engine room will be best educated guess.
 
For me to get any more accurate layout and arrangement we need either a few days within U-995 (with the floor remove) or original German plans.

[tore]

Simon.
I guess we a have a few more items we can elaborate, starting with the aux. luboilpump and its 2nd task, fueloil transport. If you look at the system below you are able to trace the red encircled valvechest and the fuel filling line with the coarsefilter. If you look towards the galleydoor stb side, you find the fuel filling line with the fairly large black valve wheel disappearing towards the floorplates, just like the luboil filling line on the port side of the door, howewer the coarse filter is missing. Then you go to u historia engineroom page and one of the last pictures there you`ll find the coarsefilter (clearly showing the design) and the valvechest A underneath the heatexchanger, (circular large tube), from this valvechest it is possible to follow the suction and dichargepipe up to the pressure hullside and across to portside and the pump. This is quite a deviation from the pipesketch.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

I can not believe it! After spending all day looking at the Lubricating Oil System, I was working out one more original German pipe layout and arrangement 

[tore]

Simon.
Look good and easy to understand . As so many times before there are  extra details which belongs to even a simple system. When you start to draw the enginedriven pumps discharge outlet you have the branch off to the reliefvalves which I believe you shall find way out to the port and starboard side. See your own picture below.
Another detail on the suction pipe is the weedblow connection on the seaboard valve and, as you love to go into tiny details, the small ball on the seaboard valve.
Tore 

[tore]

Simon.
Maciek provided a crossection drawing of the engine driven coolingwater pump some time ago. Below I have tried to illustrate the working of same. It looks as the pump has one common suction inlet and the branch off to the two pumpcylinders is intergrated in the pump (blue) the discharge( red) is howewer two flangeconnection on each side of the pump. The comparatively large red chamber is even extended by the bulb (damper) to dampen the pulsation of the waterpressure.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
In my yesterdays post on fuel fillingsystem I went a bit far drawing the conclusion of having discovered the fuel chest . The fuelfilling pipe, valves and the coarsefilter are OK, but connecting it up to the chest under the heatexchanger is a bit far fetched, I guess we have to go to the port side. I believe now the chest is the main cooling waterchest which is relevant to your last drawing of the coolingwater suctionpipe and pumps. The handles of the valvechest are without doubt seawater valvehandles and I cannot find any fuelmeter. Thus the fuelchest is still missing and probably hidden underneath the floorplates .
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Look good and easy to understand . As so many times before there are  extra details which belongs to even a simple system. When you start to draw the enginedriven pumps discharge outlet you have the branch off to the reliefvalves which I believe you shall find way out to the port and starboard side. See your own picture below.
Another detail on the suction pipe is the weedblow connection on the seaboard valve and, as you love to go into tiny details, the small ball on the seaboard valve.
Tore

Relief valves
This is great! I have always wonder that this was

Weed blow
I have started to add this layer but yet to finish it

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
Maciek provided a crossection drawing of the engine driven coolingwater pump some time ago. Below I have tried to illustrate the working of same. It looks as the pump has one common suction inlet and the branch off to the two pumpcylinders is intergrated in the pump (blue) the discharge( red) is howewer two flangeconnection on each side of the pump. The comparatively large red chamber is even extended by the bulb (damper) to dampen the pulsation of the waterpressure.
Tore

Tore, thanks for confirming the location of the cooling water discharge. I was virtually sure this was the outlet but was not 100% sure.

Yesterday while looking at the Lubricating Oil system I search the net about the duplex piston pumps, very interesting.

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
In my yesterdays post on fuel fillingsystem I went a bit far drawing the conclusion of having discovered the fuel chest . The fuelfilling pipe, valves and the coarsefilter are OK, but connecting it up to the chest under the heatexchanger is a bit far fetched, I guess we have to go to the port side. I believe now the chest is the main cooling waterchest which is relevant to your last drawing of the coolingwater suctionpipe and pumps. The handles of the valvechest are without doubt seawater valvehandles and I cannot find any fuelmeter. Thus the fuelchest is still missing and probably hidden underneath the floorplates .
Tore

I have located fuel chest manifield, it under the step into the engine room from the Galley. The Germans even cut a hand hold in the face of the step for access.

Q. Tore, I was wondering were the floor plating

[tore]

Very good Simon!
As far as I remember the floorplates were fixed by countersinked screws, I am no100 % sure. Anyhow the plates were fixed, imagine the rattling produced by loose plates.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
Looking at your above photo I wonder if the two guys are "tanning"under an ultraviolet lamp. We had such a lamp left behind by the Germans and I used it a few times. It was a monster making spark noises and smelled ozone. It did probably more harm than good.
Tore