Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details

[tore]

Upon requests and for my own convenience I am opening this thread if I can (within the limit of my capacity), be of any help to you who are taking interest in  the VIIC and VIIC/41 boats. My experience is primarely based upon my 2-3 years as the (EO) engineering officer, on the norwegian version of  U-995  KNM Kaura and U-926   KNM Kya to a lesser extent U-1202  KNM Kinn in the periode 1953- 1956.

[tore]

Christopher
Your question on snorting.
Snorting was in general a challenge to the people on watch. Trim and correct handling of the hydroplanes was very important.
If the snortvalve shut,  the big diesel would suck out the air in the sub in seconds and the people would suffer. The cook had a hard time, one minute the kettles simmered in a second it could start boiling like crazy. In my day snorting was a novelty and in order to get experience we were ordered to test out the boat by sailing submerged from the westcoast of Norway passing Iceland to Greenland and back some 27 days submerged, which at that time was a record (in the norwegian navy).
We got a lot of experience and ideas for improvement. One of the main problems was the garbage of which 46 men produce substancial in the course of 27 days. Rottening garbage is not a pleasant thing and particulary not on board a sub. We got desperate and decided to put it in bags ( before the plastic ages) and load the torpedotubes whereupon we fired. Of course the bags bursted and the torpedopeople didn`t like it much
tore

[tore]

Christopher
Painting the casing
No we didn`t let the crew do any painting, we usually docked the sub every 6 month and the yard did the painting. Howewer we had a can of paint for patching up minor rustspots. Remember space was limited. It was more important to have place for some cases of whisky. Some times I wonder if the popular weathering of the modelsubs is a little overdone allthough the wartime uboots did looked a little weary after a warpatrol. The blackening of the casing at the exhaustoutlet in the casing is overdone.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, have you seen this web site?

http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5373&p=

[tore]

Unbelievable! I have never seen it, you can really see every detail. I shall definetely study the pictures a little closer.
I see they have done a little fancy painting on the engines since  my time and unfortunately even painted parts which shouldn`t be painted f.i. the fuelcontrolrods of the fuel pumps. Great! I shall have interesting days ahead of me. Thanks.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Unbelievable! I have never seen it, you can really see every detail. I shall definetely study the pictures a little closer.
I see they have done a little fancy painting on the engines since  my time and unfortunately even painted parts which shouldn`t be painted f.i. the fuelcontrolrods of the fuel pumps. Great! I shall have interesting days ahead of me. Thanks.
Tore

Tore, do you mean that dark blue was not the original colour. I am shock to found this out! 

[NZSnowman]

Colour coding for Piping

How common was the colour coding on the different piping system throughout the U-boat? Can you remember any of the colours?
 
We have a set of original German piping Schematics drawings that show the colour coding for each pipe (e.g. Gray with two brown bands = High Pressure Air for blowing or Purple with blue band = Oil purifying system piping).
 
However, it

[tore]

Unbelievable! I have never seen it, you can really see every detail. I shall definetely study the pictures a little closer.
I see they have done a little fancy painting on the engines since  my time and unfortunately even painted parts which shouldn`t be painted f.i. the fuelcontrolrods of the fuel pumps. Great! I shall have interesting days ahead of me. Thanks.
Tore

Tore, do you mean that dark blue was not the original colour. I am shock to found this out! 

The main engines were grey. The camshaftrods to the rockearms were not painted at all (metalic), the controlrods to the fuelpumps were not painted, the indicatorcocks black( not painted), and as far as I can remember the HP fuelpumps  were black.The small drains (dearation) on the fuelpumps same as the pump, not red. I`ll revert to the other question later today.
Tore.   

[tore]

You may see a more correct picture of the enginecolours at Wikipedia Commons Filmset of das Boot, Wikipedia file: Bavaria filmstudio das Boot. Correct not painted fuelcontrolrods,camshaftrods for exhaust and inletvalves indicators cocks and engine colours on fuelpumps. May be a little too rusty on the nonpainted parts. Hope this don`t give you any trouble.
Tore   

[tore]

Colour coding for Piping

How common was the colour coding on the different piping system throughout the U-boat? Can you remember any of the colours?
 
We have a set of original German piping Schematics drawings that show the colour coding for each pipe (e.g. Gray with two brown bands = High Pressure Air for blowing or Purple with blue band = Oil purifying system piping).
 
However, it

[tore]

Hi again,
I found a photo of Kauras engines, although it is black and white and bad quality, you can see the shiny steel pushrods for the valverockers and (not so clearly) the steel fuel regulatingrods not painted. On the pipes up front you migth be able to see some colourmarking bands. 
Tore   

[NZSnowman]

Hi again,
I found a photo of Kauras engines, although it is black and white and bad quality, you can see the shiny steel pushrods for the valverockers and (not so clearly) the steel fuel regulatingrods not painted. On the pipes up front you migth be able to see some colourmarking bands. 
Tore

Tore, were the fuel line bronze?

[tore]

I think they possibly were, but

[tore]

Model KNM Kaura ( U 995  VIIC/41) norwegian version.
My model was finished today and as some of you asked me to show a picture of my modest model. I am posting same, although it is not so much compared to what some of you are building. The model is in general based on the Revell building kit with addition of the normal varieous "extras" brass, wood and decalsets as far as they were correct. The model kit is modified on several places: guns and wintergarten removed, partly new conningtower, snortmast modified incuding new airpiping,deckcasing and lockingpin. Casingdeck modified, two pressurecontainers ( not 4), casingdeckflares (widening) at the wintergarten place removed and casing straigthened, zinkanodes ( not painted)on the propellor "A"brackets and aft hydroplanes and slit for the"Pillenwerfer" on stb side next to the exhaust outlet to mention a few things. The model is painted to the norwegian navys colourcodes and not weathered as the sub  never looked  like some of the fantastic and skillfully made weathered modelsubs you see, neither is any brownwash done whereby you emphasize the rivets of any use as you hardly notice same in the real.
Tore
 

[TopherVIIC]

A Fine looking ship Sir!

[tore]

The lower picture is a try to show the opened ballast tank bottomflapvalves with double valverods.
Tore 

[TopherVIIC]

Tore -
I have a question for you about the KNM Kaura - when standing topside on deck, looking down to the torpedo loading hatches, were there bulkheads, perhaps with limber holes, boxing in the hatch and well, or was it open framework? Do you have any pics of that area of the ship?
I found this picture of the White Ensign Models brass PE set, but would like to know if the loading well on Kaura looked like that.
http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/images/wembrass/wempe7211.jpg
Also, was the snort well boxed in as well, or was there just framework supporting the deck around the snort.
Thanks!
Christopher

[tore]

Tore -
I have a question for you about the KNM Kaura - when standing topside on deck, looking down to the torpedo loading hatches, were there bulkheads, perhaps with limber holes, boxing in the hatch and well, or was it open framework? Do you have any pics of that area of the ship? Also, was the snort well boxed in as well, or was there just framework supporting the deck around the snort.
Thanks!
Christopher

Christopher
I don`t think there were any bulheads, but as usual on subs to strengthen the pressure hull,  where you had a weak spot as the case for the torpedoloadinghatches (oval openings), you put in case of the VIIC`s strengthening beams resting in racks adjoining the frames. I as far as I remember the hatchhole was cut through two frames thus we had two 150-160 mm round bars which were put in having a clearance of approximately 20 mm. I checked the clearance  once on a deepdive , 100m , and the clearances at the rods was then 0.
I`m sorry I cannot find any pictures on the subject in my files.
Tore
The snort recess in the deck was not a box but as you say casingdeck supports.

[TopherVIIC]

Tore - It seems I was trying to add a picture I found at the same time you answered me!
http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/images/wembrass/wempe7211.jpg


So you don't recall anything like this surrounding the torpedo loading hatch below the working deck?
Christopher

[NZSnowman]

Tore, yes a very fine looking ship 

[tore]

Tore - It seems I was trying to add a picture I found at the same time you answered me!
http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/images/wembrass/wempe7211.jpg


So you don't recall anything like this surrounding the torpedo loading hatch below the working deck?
Christopher

Ah now I get the question rigth. I am at a loss to  understand this WEM PE set. I was never involved in the torpedoloading. To me it doesn`t looks like any pressurehullpart but as you say a box immedeately under the deck having floodgates. I am at a loss to explain the purpose of this and cannot recall ever to have seen it.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

I understood what you meant about the round bars and the clearance. It is interesting to me that at 100 meters the pressure hull would compress a measurable amount like that!
But I have always wondered at the torpedo loading "box". Its frame proportions do not make any sense compared to standard VIIC and VIIC41 drawings. I am at a point where I need to design that area of my boat, so I can build the frames and pressure hull, but I want it to be as realistic as possible.
I also must design and build the well where the top head of the snort rests when it is stowed, and want that as realistic as possible also - I think there are enough pics of U-995/KNM Kaura of that area though.
Thank you once again! :-)
Christopher

[tore]

I understood what you meant about the round bars and the clearance. It is interesting to me that at 100 meters the pressure hull would compress a measurable amount like that!
But I have always wondered at the torpedo loading "box". Its frame proportions do not make any sense compared to standard VIIC and VIIC41 drawings. I am at a point where I need to design that area of my boat, so I can build the frames and pressure hull, but I want it to be as realistic as possible.
I also must design and build the well where the top head of the snort rests when it is stowed, and want that as realistic as possible also - I think there are enough pics of U-995/KNM Kaura of that area though.
Thank you once again! :-)
Christopher

Christopher I just had a look around and on the 1.72 kit of Czech Masters U-Boot VIIC winch loading torpedoes is a cutaway drawing showing the area between the casing deck and pressurehull at the forward topedoloading hatch. It`s an artist`s impression but the czech are usually very correct at the details. On this drawing I cannot see any casingbox. Have a look.
Tore 

[tore]

I understood what you meant about the round bars and the clearance. It is interesting to me that at 100 meters the pressure hull would compress a measurable amount like that!
But I have always wondered at the torpedo loading "box". Its frame proportions do not make any sense compared to standard VIIC and VIIC41 drawings. I am at a point where I need to design that area of my boat, so I can build the frames and pressure hull, but I want it to be as realistic as possible.
I also must design and build the well where the top head of the snort rests when it is stowed, and want that as realistic as possible also - I think there are enough pics of U-995/KNM Kaura of that area though.
Thank you once again! :-)
Christopher

Christopher I just had a look around and on the 1.72 kit of Czech Masters U-Boot VIIC winch loading torpedoes is a cutaway drawing showing the area between the casing deck and pressurehull at the forward topedoloading hatch. It`s an artist`s impression but the czech are usually very correct at the details. On this drawing I cannot see any casingbox. Have a look.
Tore 

Snortmastrecess. I think the recess was adopted to the type of snortmast fitted on the sub. You may see something on my picture of the snortmast with electropneumatic head which had a tailormade recess. So I guess you have to decide which snortmast you`ll go for before looking for details.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

 Tore, is correct. From my research every boat that has a recess in the deck for the Schnorchel mast was different. There seen to be no standard layout for the recess. Most recess follow the Schnorchel head profile, however, some are just a square shape.

[tore]

A Fine looking ship Sir!

Thanks, but it isn`t much compared to what you guys are doing. I think possibly it is one if not the only VIIC/41 in the norwegian version which is the speciality rather than anyhting else. I have ordered a glass showcase designed by me without frames where I am going to install a ledstrip illumination before I put it in the Captains Corner in my sittingroom

[NZSnowman]

Q: Floor plating

Tore, was the floor plating in the engine room painted black or was it unpainted?

[tore]

Q: Floor plating

Tore, was the floor plating in the engine room painted black or was it unpainted?

I `m almost sure it was unpainted
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Q: Floor plating

Tore, was the floor plating in the engine room painted black or was it unpainted?

I `m almost sure it was unpainted
Tore

Thanks 

Tore, in some very rare original war time photographs of the engine room, I have seen a mat running the full length between the two diesel engines. Did you used a mat in the walkway between the diesel engines?
 
Q: Colour
 
Was the framing painted within the engines room?

[tore]

Q: Floor plating

Tore, was the floor plating in the engine room painted black or was it unpainted?

I `m almost sure it was unpainted
Tore

Thanks 

Tore, in some very rare original war time photographs of the engine room, I have seen a mat running the full length between the two diesel engines. Did you used a mat in the walkway between the diesel engines?
 
Q: Colour
 
Was the framing painted within the engines room?

Normally we didn`t have any mats on the floorplating. I guess in wartime sometimes you would have something like an oilresistant rubbermat because the plating had a tendency to make substantial noise, particulary when people are rushing to their battle/divingstations As I previously have stated, noise is the subs worst enemy, hence rubbershocks mountings, rubbercovered tools and robbermats on the floorplatings.
Tore

[tore]

I realised I forgot the painting question.
Yes, the frames were painted.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore


Thank you for posting photo with you inspecting the upper deck of the U-995.

If the snortvalve shut,  the big diesel would suck out the air in the sub in seconds and the people would suffer. The cook had a hard time, one minute the kettles simmered in a second it could start boiling like crazy. In my day snorting was a novelty and in order to get experience we were ordered to test out the boat by sailing submerged from the westcoast of Norway passing Iceland to Greenland and back some 27 days submerged, which at that time was a record (in the norwegian navy).

I have found (and translated to polish) instructions for using Schnorchel on type VIIC and IX boats.
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/okrety/wyposazenie/chrapy.html
(at the bottom of the page there are original ones)


In the one of your previous post you have written:

We never operated more than one diesel at the time and always with the propellor disengaged, chargeing the batteries.The other E-motor/generator took care of the propulsion. We tried out direct dieselpropulsion while snorting but learned that the hydroplanes and the boat was not very suitable for high speed submerged and the mast was not designed for the load.

You mentioned the diesel propulsion - I think it is suitable for the case 3 on the page



and the mode you have used is case 5 on page:



From my researches I know, that one 9-cylinder MAN engine created 20 mm Hg vacuum during snorting, but when the snorkel head valve was closed, after 2 min. the vacuum was 120 mm Hg. Did you installed any safety devices shutting off the engines autamatically when such vacuum occured?


You have also mentioned, that the electric distilling plant was not in use on board of the KNM Kaura - how did you supplement the water in battery cells? Where did you get from the water for cooking? You have used the water stored in the tanks for the whole cruise?


Was the navigation a problem during long sumberged cruises? Did you used dead reckonning? Did you use the original german Anschutz gyro compass or you have modern navigation systems?


And one more question not related with snorkeling but related to the sanitary systems - do you know if toilets on KMM Kaura where replaced or they are original/german?

We got a lot of experience and ideas for improvement.

Could you mention improvements you have implemented?

One of the main problems was the garbage of which 46 men produce substancial in the course of 27 days. Rottening garbage is not a pleasant thing and particulary not on board a sub. We got desperate and decided to put it in bags ( before the plastic ages) and load the torpedotubes whereupon we fired. Of course the bags bursted and the torpedopeople didn`t like it much

I have read that during war there were three ways:
1. launching the garbages through the torpedo tubes - not practiced because of necessity of thorough cleaning the tube and hazard of jamming the launching piston during torpedo launch.
2. launching the garbages through the BOLD ejection tube - not preferred bacause of necessity of laborious loading small parts to the tube.
3. storing the garbages on the board - most common.




And one question related to the electric equipment - for a long time I'm looking for the informations about the Batterie Selbstschalter - Battery automatic circuit breakar - located in the galley and near the commanding officer room. I have never seen the photo of such device - and for now I think that the only way is to convince the curator of the memorial in Laboe. Maybe you have some information on this topic?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

And one more general question - how did you managed with the spare parts - during operation of the KNM Kaura you have to replace/repair used parts - did the norwegian industry make replacement parts?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Hi Tore


Thank you for posting photo with you inspecting the upper deck of the U-995.

If the snortvalve shut,  the big diesel would suck out the air in the sub in seconds and the people would suffer. The cook had a hard time, one minute the kettles simmered in a second it could start boiling like crazy. In my day snorting was a novelty and in order to get experience we were ordered to test out the boat by sailing submerged from the westcoast of Norway passing Iceland to Greenland and back some 27 days submerged, which at that time was a record (in the norwegian navy).

I have found (and translated to polish) instructions for using Schnorchel on type VIIC and IX boats.
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/okrety/wyposazenie/chrapy.html
(at the bottom of the page there are original ones)


In the one of your previous post you have written:

We never operated more than one diesel at the time and always with the propellor disengaged, chargeing the batteries.The other E-motor/generator took care of the propulsion. We tried out direct dieselpropulsion while snorting but learned that the hydroplanes and the boat was not very suitable for high speed submerged and the mast was not designed for the load.

You mentioned the diesel propulsion - I think it is suitable for the case 3 on the page



and the mode you have used is case 5 on page:



From my researches I know, that one 9-cylinder MAN engine created 20 mm Hg vacuum during snorting, but when the snorkel head valve was closed, after 2 min. the vacuum was 120 mm Hg. Did you installed any safety devices shutting off the engines autamatically when such vacuum occured?


You have also mentioned, that the electric distilling plant was not in use on board of the KNM Kaura - how did you supplement the water in battery cells? Where did you get from the water for cooking? You have used the water stored in the tanks for the whole cruise?


Was the navigation a problem during long sumberged cruises? Did you used dead reckonning? Did you use the original german Anschutz gyro compass or you have modern navigation systems?


And one more question not related with snorkeling but related to the sanitary systems - do you know if toilets on KMM Kaura where replaced or they are original/german?

We got a lot of experience and ideas for improvement.

Could you mention improvements you have implemented?

One of the main problems was the garbage of which 46 men produce substancial in the course of 27 days. Rottening garbage is not a pleasant thing and particulary not on board a sub. We got desperate and decided to put it in bags ( before the plastic ages) and load the torpedotubes whereupon we fired. Of course the bags bursted and the torpedopeople didn`t like it much

I have read that during war there were three ways:
1. launching the garbages through the torpedo tubes - not practiced because of necessity of thorough cleaning the tube and hazard of jamming the launching piston during torpedo launch.
2. launching the garbages through the BOLD ejection tube - not preferred bacause of necessity of laborious loading small parts to the tube.
3. storing the garbages on the board - most common.




And one question related to the electric equipment - for a long time I'm looking for the informations about the Batterie Selbstschalter - Battery automatic circuit breakar - located in the galley and near the commanding officer room. I have never seen the photo of such device - and for now I think that the only way is to convince the curator of the memorial in Laboe. Maybe you have some information on this topic?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek
Very interesting subject, I just had a very brief look on the German instructions and cannot comment to much on this stage, but it seems to me it refer to the early execution of the snort system. I return to this.
Destilled water. Yes we had containers.
Navigation. I am not a navigator, and cannot comment very detailed on this, but we didn`t have any problem and we used the original Anschutz gyro. When passing Iceland we could of course got bearings. I suppose they used stars when possible and echosounding , but I really don`t know.
Garbarge. One of our experience suggestions was to make a garbage torpedo container to use in the torpedotube. The two other options you mentioned was not not feasible to our opinion.
Experience. A suggestion to operate the diesels disengaged from propellors. Other items was more related to the people and food. For sure there were more suggestions but I can`t remember.
Toilets were the originals
Battery circuit breaker.  I don`t think I have a picture or any notes on this, everything was destroyd some 50 years ago but I `ll have a look. I`ll be back on the rest later.
Tore

[tore]

hi Maciek
Futher to your questions.
Dieselopereration during snorting.
We didn`t have any automatic shut down of the diesels at excessive vacum and when snorting the engineer on watch was stand by and had a hard time in bad weather. In fair weather and with a stable trim the underpressure in the sub was not really a problem,it was the variable pressure which caused the troubles.
Drinking- and cookingwater. We used water from the freshwatertanks all the time.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek I see I forgot to answer your question on parts.  We had sufficient spareparts from ex german stocks.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore


Thank you for all answers.

Dieselopereration during snorting.
We didn`t have any automatic shut down of the diesels at excessive vacum and when snorting the engineer on watch was stand by and had a hard time in bad weather. In fair weather and with a stable trim the underpressure in the sub was not
really a problem,it was the variable pressure which caused the troubles.

I have read that US subs after GUPPY conversions were equipped with the devices, which shut down the engines when one a large vacuum occured, when the RPM of the engines droped down and when the exhaust gases pressure exceeded. On KNM Kaura without such facilities it had to be really hard work.

Snorting underpressure
We never operated more than one diesel at the time and always with the propellor disengaged, chargeing the batteries.The other E-motor/generator took care of the propulsion. We tried out direct dieselpropulsion while snorting but learned that the hydroplanes and the boat was not very suitable for high speed submerged and the mast was not designed for the load.

What was average cruise speed while snorting? Do I understood correctly, you mean, that accurate depth handling (necessary for snorting) was hard on greater speed?  Or the boat was generally tough to handle?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Many of the modelbuilders have got confused on the details of the forward and aft steeldecksurface on the VIIC/41,as Revell and some of the PE brass kits shows different pattern. I`m showing the original pattern as on VIIC/41 KNM Kaura ex U 995 and the ex german Uboot pen in Trondheim which became our  submarinestation.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, Thanks for the great picture of the bow 

From other pictures of the Type VIIC/41 bows I have seen, the steel plate along the edge looks smooth (without the small bump - like my drawing below). I was wondering on KNM Kaura was the steel plate in the centre part of the bow, as it the same pattern and type of steel plate found along the edge?

[tore]

Hi Tore


Thank you for all answers.

Dieselopereration during snorting.
We didn`t have any automatic shut down of the diesels at excessive vacum and when snorting the engineer on watch was stand by and had a hard time in bad weather. In fair weather and with a stable trim the underpressure in the sub was not
really a problem,it was the variable pressure which caused the troubles.

I have read that US subs after GUPPY conversions were equipped with the devices, which shut down the engines when one a large vacuum occured, when the RPM of the engines droped down and when the exhaust gases pressure exceeded. On KNM Kaura without such facilities it had to be really hard work.

Snorting underpressure
We never operated more than one diesel at the time and always with the propellor disengaged, chargeing the batteries.The other E-motor/generator took care of the propulsion. We tried out direct dieselpropulsion while snorting but learned that the hydroplanes and the boat was not very suitable for high speed submerged and the mast was not designed for the load.

What was average cruise speed while snorting? Do I understood correctly, you mean, that accurate depth handling (necessary for snorting) was hard on greater speed?  Or the boat was generally tough to handle?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Maciek
Of course today the submarines are equipped with all sorts of sofisticated devices. In  the 40- 50- ties most of the submarines were really "divingboats". The latter part of the war was the dawn of the real sub. The VIIC`s was a "divingboat" converted to some extent, thanks to the snortmast, to a real submarine.In spite of all writingdesk instructions we, operating the thing, had to try out (and fail) various ways to get experience to handle the sub.
As far as I remember (nearly 60 years ago) the to run the diesel direct on the propellor some times made the sub a little "ticklish" and hence you to dip the snort valve too much and we exceeded the values ( we didn`t measure same) mentioned in your german instructions  ( we never did see them). resulting the underpressure to become to excessive and sometimes ( very rare) the exhaustbackpressure. It could be we exceeded the speeds mentioned in your german document.
Tore

[tore]

Tore, Thanks for the great picture of the bow 

From other pictures of the Type VIIC/41 bows I have seen, the steel plate along the edge looks smooth (without the small bump - like my drawing below). I was wondering on KNM Kaura was the steel plate in the centre part of the bow, as it the same pattern and type of steel plate found along the edge?

Hi
As far as I remember, all our VIIC `s had a similar executions as Kaura and the pattern of the "studs" was even all over the steeldeck as shown.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek
I cannot remember the average snortingspeed we ended up with, we tried a wide range but the end result was a fairly slow speed, 27 days back and forth to Greenland from westcoast Norway should give an indication.
Tore 

[TopherVIIC]

Tore -
That is a surprisingly smooth (to me) looking torpedo launch from the surface! I would have expected more turbidity and bubbles from a surface shot from tube #1.
At first I thought it was a picture showing that someone cast a mooring line forward and it landed in the water! :-)
Cheers
Christopher

[tore]

Tore -
That is a surprisingly smooth (to me) looking torpedo launch from the surface! I would have expected more turbidity and bubbles from a surface shot from tube #1.
At first I thought it was a picture showing that someone cast a mooring line forward and it landed in the water! :-)
Cheers
Christopher

Christopher.
This is a dummy torpedo launched rigth outside the submarinepen. It`s a test, the whole idea is to ascertain that no traitorous bubbles escape from the launch. The torpedo is not running thus leaving no trails, but surfacing immediately after the launch. See picture below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, Thanks for the great picture of the bow 

From other pictures of the Type VIIC/41 bows I have seen, the steel plate along the edge looks smooth (without the small bump - like my drawing below). I was wondering on KNM Kaura was the steel plate in the centre part of the bow, as it the same pattern and type of steel plate found along the edge?

Hi
As far as I remember, all our VIIC `s had a similar executions as Kaura and the pattern of the "studs" was even all over the steeldeck as shown.
Tore

Thanks Tore, I will update my drawings.

[Rokket]

and a nice presentation, even a painting behind!

[tore]

and a nice presentation, even a painting behind!

Thanks Rokket, but it`s not so much compare to what I see in this forum. I`m busy  planning and making the displaycase. It`s a challenge to be able to show all the details you put into the model and proper ligths are some of the clues. I`ll use the LED technique and a glasscase without frames and use the weekend to figure out the optimal place for the LEDstrip in the case.
tore

[Rokket]

Hmmm...I posted about that lovely build yesterday, but it's not here...I also like the presentation with the painting in the bg.

[tore]

Floor covering.
On another thread the question of floorplates and covering came up.I think I a have a wartime picture showing one way of eliminating the floorplate sound. As you can see it looks like pieces of woven mats in the controlroom.
Tore

[tore]

Hmmm...I posted about that lovely build yesterday, but it's not here...I also like the presentation with the painting in the bg.

I`m posting the pencildrawing made by me of KNM Kaura patrolling in northern Norway. The whole " navy"corner includig the glass showcase with LED ligths shall be ready by tomorrow and I`ll post a new picture for you by then if you are interested.
Tore

[tore]

While waiting for the showcase to turn up, I`ll post a few pictures of two of my models.
The sub is of course KNM Kaura and the old man of war made of wooden planks is the 66 guns ship The Norwegian Lion.
Tore

[tore]

KNM Kaura  U 995 Balkongerat/ Gruppenhorchgerat
Some confusion exsist as to if this was installed originally on U 995. It to my opinion it was not and KNM Kaura was not fitted with Gruppenhorchgerat when she was a "frontline" sub in the norwegian navy 1953-1957, She was taken out of service in 1962 and the last years before that she served as a trainingboat.  She was handed over to the germans October 1965 an undated picture of her hanging in the big floatingcranes in Kiel shows her in the Norwegian version with Gruppenhorchgerat (see below). Another picture shows her in the Norwegian version at Laboe on the concretebeds with doors in the pressurehull and Gruppenhorchgerat (see below) and then another picture dated March 13. 1972 she is hanging in the floatingcranes with wintergarten tower and doors cut in the pressurehull without Gruppenhorchgerat. I presume she had for some reason been fitted with Gruppenhorchgerat between 1957 and 1965. Thus she wasn`t equipped with this device originally.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Tore -
Your model of the Norwegian Lion looks outstanding! Well done Sir! And Your KNM Kaura looks just as proud beside her! Years ago I helped a buddy of mine rig the tallship USS Constitution. She was a board-by-board model, and the rigging was complete. I enjoyed helping on her, and would one day like to build a tallship.

[tore]

Floodgates
Reverting to my last post you migth se another sligtly confusing detail. It is well known that the floodgates are not symetrically arranged on the VIICs. The most significant example is perhaps the utmost forward bowfloodgates. There are two on the stb side and three on the port see (picture below). Revell has not included that in their kits. U 995 (and KNM Kaura) had this standard pattern, however if you look at the early picture from Kiel when she is handed over hanging in the crane in the norwegian version, she all of a sudden got three floodgates on stb side. She has all the time got three stb floodgates at Laboe.
That`s a puzzle.
Tore

[tore]

Tore -
Your model of the Norwegian Lion looks outstanding! Well done Sir! And Your KNM Kaura looks just as proud beside her! Years ago I helped a buddy of mine rig the tallship USS Constitution. She was a board-by-board model, and the rigging was complete. I enjoyed helping on her, and would one day like to build a tallship.

Thanks Christopher .
I remember the rigging was a challenge as well. But you made most of the accessories by hand  fi turning the ships bell of brass. We didn`t have PE sets in those days.
Tore

[tore]

Well, finally my display case has arrived I have just finished the istallation of the LED ligth and apart from the basplate of mahogany which I shall make later, the model of KNM Kaura is complete . This is my favourite way of displaying models, even my modest model looks OK.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

KNM Kaura  U 995 Balkongerat/ Gruppenhorchgerat
Some confusion exsist as to if this was installed originally on U 995. It to my opinion it was not and KNM Kaura was not fitted with Gruppenhorchgerat when she was a "frontline" sub in the norwegian navy 1953-1957, She was taken out of service in 1962 and the last years before that she served as a trainingboat.  She was handed over to the germans October 1965 an undated picture of her hanging in the big floatingcranes in Kiel shows her in the Norwegian version with Gruppenhorchgerat (see below). Another picture shows her in the Norwegian version at Laboe on the concretebeds with doors in the pressurehull and Gruppenhorchgerat (see below) and then another picture dated March 13. 1972 she is hanging in the floatingcranes with wintergarten tower and doors cut in the pressurehull without Gruppenhorchgerat. I presume she had for some reason been fitted with Gruppenhorchgerat between 1957 and 1965. Thus she wasn`t equipped with this device originally.
Tore

Tore, extremely interesting about the Balkongerat on U-995. It has been a very special part of the U-boat for me as U-1308 had one. I been researching this area of the boat for the last three years. There have been numerous things about the Balkongerat on U-995 that I could not make sense of. I have study the other Balkongerat's on the other U-boat and U-995 Balkongerat is the odd one out.

I have study the differences between the changes over to the Type XXI from the Type VIIC/41. By also studying the Type XXI it have help me understand better the Type VIIC/41. A lot of the late war technologies and equipment for the Type VIIC/41 came from the Type XXI research. From this also I have learn a lot about the war late u-boat.
 
I underearth some new information this summer about the Balkongerat which also made no sense to me until today after reading this above. I think I am now starting to understand the Balkongerat on the Type VIIC/41. I can feel the start of a new research article coming soon 
 
Thanks for the information!!!!!!!! 

It made my day!!!!
 

[NZSnowman]

Tore, I forgot to ask before, were you able to get into a Type XXI, to have a look around?

[tore]

KNM Kaura  U 995 Balkongerat/ Gruppenhorchgerat
Some confusion exsist as to if this was installed originally on U 995. It to my opinion it was not and KNM Kaura was not fitted with Gruppenhorchgerat when she was a "frontline" sub in the norwegian navy 1953-1957, She was taken out of service in 1962 and the last years before that she served as a trainingboat.  She was handed over to the germans October 1965 an undated picture of her hanging in the big floatingcranes in Kiel shows her in the Norwegian version with Gruppenhorchgerat (see below). Another picture shows her in the Norwegian version at Laboe on the concretebeds with doors in the pressurehull and Gruppenhorchgerat (see below) and then another picture dated March 13. 1972 she is hanging in the floatingcranes with wintergarten tower and doors cut in the pressurehull without Gruppenhorchgerat. I presume she had for some reason been fitted with Gruppenhorchgerat between 1957 and 1965. Thus she wasn`t equipped with this device originally.
Tore

Tore, extremely interesting about the Balkongerat on U-995. It has been a very special part of the U-boat for me as U-1308 had one. I been researching this area of the boat for the last three years. There have been numerous things about the Balkongerat on U-995 that I could not make sense of. I have study the other Balkongerat's on the other U-boat and U-995 Balkongerat is the odd one out.

I have study the differences between the changes over to the Type XXI from the Type VIIC/41. By also studying the Type XXI it have help me understand better the Type VIIC/41. A lot of the late war technologies and equipment for the Type VIIC/41 came from the Type XXI research. From this also I have learn a lot about the war late u-boat.
 
I underearth some new information this summer about the Balkongerat which also made no sense to me until today after reading this above. I think I am now starting to understand the Balkongerat on the Type VIIC/41. I can feel the start of a new research article coming soon 
 
Thanks for the information!!!!!!!! 

It made my day!!!!
 

I`m happy you could use the info.
Tore

[tore]

XII Gruppenhorchgerat.
We only had VIIC, VIIC/41 and one XIII in our service. I`m only familiar of the two types of VIICs. Sorry I don`t know anything about XXI. I have only seen it in Bremerhaven, Germany.
Tore

[Rokket]

yes, love the Lion

[tore]

NZSnowman
Your interest in XXI is understandable, she is the "mother" of the modern submarines. In the end of the 50s we modernized one of our VIICs KNM Kya  ex U926.
The conningtower was streamlined and became a "sail". Otherwise our VIICs were kept pretty much the same throughout their life as "frontline" subs in the norwegian navy.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, the Type XXIII was it the KNM Knerter??? Just wonder were able to get aboard and have a look around?

[NZSnowman]

Working and seeing the inside a Type XXI after the Type VII's, must be like driver a model 'T' then going to a ferrari;  Many things similar but everything different 

[tore]

Tore, the Type XXIII was it the KNM Knerter??? Just wonder were able to get aboard and have a look around?

As you know KNM Knerten  ex U4706 was a XXIII type delivered January 1945 and as such a very modern submarine. However she was a coastal sub and as such not very fit for our need. Moreover some parts were removed and we planned to use her for research. However she had a fire  and a small batteryexplosion so she was scrapped and sold in 1953. I was never onboard.
Tore

[tore]

Working and seeing the inside a Type XXI after the Type VII's, must be like driver a model 'T' then going to a ferrari;  Many things similar but everything different 

I believe so, but even then the VIICs as at the end of the war, equipped with snort, were beautiful boats with well proven technique, moreover they were considerable more comfortable acommodationwise than our british built subs. To me, it was a big change beeing educated on british submarines to run a german.The biggest differences between the british and german subs at that time, were apart from the snortmast, the operation of  the vents and valves. The british were hydraulic operated and the germans handoperated by levers and rods.
Tore

[tore]

Tore -
I have a question for you about the KNM Kaura - when standing topside on deck, looking down to the torpedo loading hatches, were there bulkheads, perhaps with limber holes, boxing in the hatch and well, or was it open framework? Do you have any pics of that area of the ship?
I found this picture of the White Ensign Models brass PE set, but would like to know if the loading well on Kaura looked like that.
http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/images/wembrass/wempe7211.jpg
Also, was the snort well boxed in as well, or was there just framework supporting the deck around the snort.
Thanks!
Christopher

Christopher
I have been pondering upon your question for a few days and here is my pure guess and migth not be even a clever one as I never have seen the thing. The hatch was sometimes used to take onboard provision even from supplysubs at sea if weather permitted. You would always have some swells causing the sub to roll. From the picture below you see a guy loading a bunch of tincans and indeed there is a sort of casingside forming a box around the hatchopening. If this poor guy would loose one of these tincans it would immediately roll on on the pressurehulls curved surface and disappear in the casing. It would be almost impossible to get hold of at sea. A free rolling tincan in the casing would be the last thing you would have in a sub, the noise would be a killer.
The other picture has a detail while loading a torpedo thru the same hatch. To me it looks like a box that in this case is attached to the hatch and thus stay away from the torpedo loading. This box would`t need to match any frames as it has nothing to do with strengthening. It`s pure guesswork from my side. What do you think?
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Tore-
THAT is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for! And I think your description about what could happen if something got loose in the area between the working deck casing and the pressure hull would be absolutely correct.
I have heard of cases where a tool like a hammer or spanner got loose between the casing during a crash dive. That would be disastrous!
That picture of the torp loading hatch for U-604 has a limbered bulkhead similar to the one for the cook's loading hatch - and could very well be what I need to put around the torp loading hatch on my boat.
I am surprised that there would not be a way for a crewman to get down inside that section of the boat while at sea. There are so many air lines that run over the outer surface of the pressure hull, I would think access to them would be important, but a thin sheet metal bulkhead that would limit "spillage" would make sense.
Thanks for continuing to think about my quandary.
I worked on a few more frames in the forward section, put in my deck stowage box and got my ancher chain and hawser tube in, and am finally laying in the lube lines for the torp gear inside the tauchzelle 5. I will post pics this afternoon.
Thanks again!
Christopher

[NZSnowman]

Moreover some parts were removed ...
Tore

 This is interesting! As currently U-995 has a Type XXIII periscope. Do you guys use the periscope from the Type XXIII before scrapping her?

[tore]

Christopher
Good to hear I have put you on a track. Crawling around in the casing while at sea would be a bit risky. You are trapped in a confined space which even in moderate weather is occasionly submerged without beeing able to move very much. I have been crawling around in the area and as a fairly skinny guy I could manage. I would never send a heavy guy down he could be stuck. But you are rigth, it`s a lot of stuff  there like greaselines which need to be looked after.
Tore

[tore]

Moreover some parts were removed ...
Tore

 This is interesting! As currently U-995 has a Type XXIII periscope. Do you guys use the periscope from the Type XXIII before scrapping her?

To my knowledge no. All our VIICs including Kaura (U 995) had a fairly advanced attackperiscope as can be seen on the picture below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Sorry Tore I was talking about the sky periscope. The sky periscope in the control room is different from the standard sky periscope for the Type VIIC.
 

[tore]

Sorry Tore I was talking about the sky periscope. The sky periscope in the control room is different from the standard sky periscope for the Type VIIC.
 

Well that scope was a straigth forward scope as you see on the picture below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, that is correct! The picture of the scope in your post, is of a type used for on the Type VII's. However the currently scope, is of a type used for on the Type XXIII


The currently scope on U-995

[NZSnowman]

Christopher
Good to hear I have put you on a track. Crawling around in the casing while at sea would be a bit risky. You are trapped in a confined space which even in moderate weather is occasionly submerged without beeing able to move very much. I have been crawling around in the area and as a fairly skinny guy I could manage. I would never send a heavy guy down he could be stuck. But you are rigth, it`s a lot of stuff  there like greaselines which need to be looked after.
Tore

Tore

By any chance do you have any photographs that you are willing to share of this area between the pressure hull and deck, showing the pipings etc...?

I would found any photographs extremely useful, for my drawing!

[TopherVIIC]

Tore

By any chance do you have any photographs that you are willing to share of this area between the pressure hull and deck, showing the pipings etc...?

I would found any photographs extremely useful, for my drawing!

I second the motion! :-)

[tore]

Tore

By any chance do you have any photographs that you are willing to share of this area between the pressure hull and deck, showing the pipings etc...?

I would found any photographs extremely useful, for my drawing!

I second the motion! :-)

Sorry I don`t have any drawings. But there are a couple of german books dealing with the german repair and restauration of U 995 where they have removed the casingdeck. These books have photos of the job, but I don`t know if they are of any use to you. I check for the titles of these books.
Tore

[tore]

Hi
The pictures in one of the books (I don`t have it and I don`t know the title) are like the the one below. Probably not very useful they have removed a lot of stuff. You can see the forward batteryhatch.
Tore

[tore]

Christopher.
Further to my post this morning I post another picture of Kaura repairing in Kiel and casingdeck partly removed. You can anyhow cleary see the shape of the outer framing.
Tore

[tore]

NZSnowman
I rememeber some times ago you launched the idea that all VIIC-VIIC/41s equipped with snortmast having airinlet and exhaust outlet at the hingepivot had a small part of the exhaustpipe protruding through the casingdeck on stb side forward part of the conningtower. I was a little reluctant to that and of the opinion U 995 didn`t have it. My memory failed, I have been scruntinizing all my pictures and finally today I found the evidence that Kaura (U 995) and all our VIICs did have same, see the picture of Kaura below taken in May 1953. I think you can even see the pipebend contains the snortexhaustpipe shut of valve. You are rigth I believe all the VIIC/VIIC-41s having this type of snortmast had pipebend through the casingdeck. Up to this date I have not seen any modelbuilder having got this detail, so back to the workshop, I`ll be the first.
Tore

[tore]

A very visible detail on the VIIC and VIIC/41 were the railing which apart from the localisation around the conningtower seems to be ignored by modelbuilders. I think it`s a pitty because it gives a taste of old times submarine to the model. The railing was a standard removeable equipment fitted quite often in harbour and even at sea (see my photo below). However you wouldn`t like to have it fitted on warpatrol as it had a tendency to rattle while submerged. Perhaps this could be an inspiration to give a little different twist to your VIIC model.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, where were they store onboard?

[tore]

They were very carefully stored in the casing.
Tore

[tore]

Further to my answer perhaps I should mention that the gangway was stowed away in the same area as far as I remember.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Was storing in the casting something you did only, or did the German's do this also?

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

I believe so, but even then the VIICs as at the end of the war, equipped with snort, were beautiful boats with well proven technique, moreover they were considerable more comfortable acommodationwise than our british built subs. To me, it was a big change beeing educated on british submarines to run a german.

It is really surprising opinion - there is commonly said, that crew habitability on german boats was extreme rough in comparison to the allied (us and uk) subs.
 

The biggest differences between the british and german subs at that time, were apart from the snortmast, the operation of  the vents and valves. The british were hydraulic operated and the germans handoperated by levers and rods.

As far as I know, the larger boats (types IX, XB XIV and XXI) had vent valves operated by means of compressed air pistons/actuators (with emergency hand drive of course).


I have question - comparing the photos from control room of U-995 and U-570 I see, that the first one has bow (and aft) bouyancy tanks (Wasserdichte Heck/Back) vent valves opened from the control room (by means of the rods and hand wheel - similar to the main ballast tanks 1 and 5 vent valves), while on U-570 these valves are opened from the aft and forward torpedo room respectively.


Was this "remote" drive introduced by Germans or by Norwegians?



(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo17.htm)



(http://www.submarineresearch.com/bull58.html)
--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

I believe the germans did it as well. Apart from the pressure containers with spare torpedoes and the rubberdingies containers,which sometimes were used for potatoes. Different  stuff was stowed away in the casing but everything had of course to be properly secured and could be a hazard when subject to depthcharging.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Was storing in the casting something you did only, or did the German's do this also?

I have seen descriptions, that "seem

[tore]

Maciek
Im not familar to the other german types of submarines but I`m not surprised they were equipped with hydraulic or pneumatic valves. Handoperated valves by rods and levers were to a certain extent requiring a lot of maintenance.
Tore

[tore]

Accomodationstandard. German versus British subs.
I would challenge the statement that the german subs.(VIICs) had a crude crewhabitability compared to british. May be it could be true using the A class and to a certain extent T class as a counterpart, but for sure not the V (U) class. In fact most of our recruits put the VIIC up as alternative 1 when applying for boat.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

According to the upperdeck stowage, I'm attaching the part of the
"Tauchvorschrift f

[tore]

Remote operated vents.
They were german originally to my knowledge.
Tore

[tore]

According to the upperdeck stowage, I'm attaching the part of the
"Tauchvorschrift f

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

You have some very interesting documents. The german instructions you are showing is almost the same as we used. Do you happen to have any german descriptions or schematic drawings of the snort system not having the pipeconnections up at the tower  (as you previosly showed), but at hollow snortpivotshaft?

No, I don't have anything describing this variant of schnorchel installation. The best what I have seen is the document developed by Simon.


--
Regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Maciek, and Tore

My article about the schnorchel should be going up this weekend on the AMP site, it have my latest drawing on the schnorchel  Also should have good size update for my "Drawing Drawing' within the next week or so. Just need to check a few things first.

[tore]

Maciek, and Tore

My article about the schnorchel should be going up this weekend on the AMP site, it have my latest drawing on the schnorchel  Also should have good size update for my "Drawing Drawing' within the next week or so. Just need to check a few things first.

Excellent! Looking forward to seeing it. I just finished the famous snort exhaustpipebend on top of the casingdeck and shall install it tomorrow as soon as the paint is dry.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, here could be a good test for you memory. Below are pictures of the bulkhead between the CR & mass. On the right of the picture, we can see a pipe with a colour code (purple with red band). One of my document I have say it

[tore]

Tore, here could be a good test for you memory. Below are pictures of the bulkhead between the CR & mass. On the right of the picture, we can see a pipe with a colour code (purple with red band). One of my document I have say it’s a Fuel oil transfer lines. Do you know if this is correct?

Hi
I can`t remember this particular pipebend neither the colourcode. To my opinion this could very well be the fueltransferpipe from the no 1 stb regulating/fuelstoragetank ( in the saddle) which goes into the CR where it connects via valves to other saddlefuelstorage tanks and then to the engineroom via common pipe.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, from what you saw on KNM Kaura and your understanding of German U-boat design what do you think the German

[tore]

NZSnowman
I presume you are referring to the relevant fuel transferpipe. Most of the VIIC saddle tanks were used as storage for fuel and not as common ballasttanks.Even the saddleregulatingtanks could be used for fuelstorage to increase the operating range. If this pipe is identified correctly as fueltransferpipe, my suggestion is the pipe leads from the no 1 stb. regulatingtank in the saddle outside the PO mess to the common fuelsupplypipe in the CR. and is normally shut and only used in those cases you carry fuel in the regulatingtank no. 1stb. I hope I understood your question correct, otherwise please revert.
Tore

[tore]

Tore, from what you saw on KNM Kaura and your understanding of German U-boat design what do you think the German

[tore]

NZSnowman
I rememeber some times ago you launched the idea that all VIIC-VIIC/41s equipped with snortmast having airinlet and exhaust outlet at the hingepivot had a small part of the exhaustpipe protruding through the casingdeck on stb side forward part of the conningtower. I was a little reluctant to that and of the opinion U 995 didn`t have it. My memory failed, I have been scruntinizing all my pictures and finally today I found the evidence that Kaura (U 995) and all our VIICs did have same, see the picture of Kaura below taken in May 1953. I think you can even see the pipebend contains the snortexhaustpipe shut of valve. You are rigth I believe all the VIIC/VIIC-41s having this type of snortmast had pipebend through the casingdeck. Up to this date I have not seen any modelbuilder having got this detail, so back to the workshop, I`ll be the first.
Tore

As a consequence of  NZSnowmans researchs and the above I went back to the drawingboard and installed the pipe on my Kaura ( ex U 995) model as can be seen on the picture below.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, can you remember if the high pressure Oxygen bottle behind the rear engine housing and clutch were painted or unpainted? And if painted that colour they were?
 
Were some suggestion that the German

[tore]

I believe they were painted dark grey and they could very well have a dark blue top I am not 100% sure.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore, Simon

Tore, here could be a good test for you memory. Below are pictures of the bulkhead between the CR & mass. On the right of the picture, we can see a pipe with a colour code (purple with red band). One of my document I have say it

[tore]

Hi Tore, Simon

Tore, here could be a good test for you memory. Below are pictures of the bulkhead between the CR & mass. On the right of the picture, we can see a pipe with a colour code (purple with red band). One of my document I have say it’s a Fuel oil transfer lines. Do you know if this is correct?

I think, you both are partially right. I think, that this is sounding/test/vent line for the inboard fuel oil tank 1.
Here is the control room side of the above bulkhead:

On this diagram I have marked corrensponding parts of installation:

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate8A.htm)
Compare the hull valve handle with the one on this diagram (treibol bordv):

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate1.htm)
Using this panorama you can see the drain line and the "bucket" for the fuel oil.
http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5378


--
Regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek
I think you are absolutely rigth. The high quality photo from the CR bulkhead and the diagram and valvediagram is quite clear.
Tore

[tore]

Tore, can you remember if the high pressure Oxygen bottle behind the rear engine housing and clutch were painted or unpainted? And if painted that colour they were?
 
Were some suggestion that the German’s painted the top of them dark blue 
 
Thanks, Simon.

Simon
Coming back to your above question. If you are making a drawing of this area, I would like to mention an important detail. Between the engines and the pressurehull quite a bit of spareparts were fixed to the bulkhead. In this particular area I believe a spare piston was mounted in a round gray container of app. 450-500 mm diameter and 6-700 mm deep. The container was filled with conservation oil and was quite domenating.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi


Coming back to the Schnorchel - Tore, do you remember, if following wheel in the forward control room
is the drive for the Schnorchel locking shaft?
Simon, have you done any research related to this part?




http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_04.php
--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

 Tore


One more question - for a long time I'm wondering what this thing is:





It is located in the stb, forward part of the bow torpedo room. It is connected with two pipes with two valves above the torpedo tubes:




The similar arrangement is in the diesel engines room (near the bulkhead between diesel engines and electric motor rooms):




My best guess: it is some kind of hand pump for pumping the lubricating oil to the grease lines of mechanical gears outside pressure hull, but I cannot confirm it in any way.


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Hi


Coming back to the Schnorchel - Tore, do you remember, if following wheel in the forward control room
is the drive for the Schnorchel locking shaft?
Simon, have you done any research related to this part?




http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_04.php
--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Maciek!
Yes I think it is.However your picture of the lockingpin external on what I presume is the Laboe U 995 is not the way it was. The rod for the wheel was fitted in an external tube outside the conningtower as I hope you can see on my bad quality picture below. This is the way it was fitted on the U 995. I have seen 3 executions of the transmissionrods to the wheel, external all the way to the deck and then into the conningtower, the way shown on your picture and the original way on KNM Kaura  (U 995).
Tore

[tore]

Maciek
You are rigth, these devices were for greasepumping to the mechanical links partly outside (in the casing) the pressurehull. As far as I remember a few pipes led  from the pump via shut off valves in the pressurehull to distribution boxes for greasepoints outside . May be something for Christophers forward greaselines project?
We had a special man ,a "greaser", who was responsible for these points.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek.
Having had another look at your Laboe U 995 picture I see they have removed the snortlockingrod completely so it doesn`t show an alternative. Why did they do that?
tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

Yes I think it is.However your picture of the lockingpin external on what I presume is the Laboe U 995 is not the way it was. The rod for the wheel was fitted in an external tube outside the conningtower as I hope you can see on my bad quality picture below. This is the way it was fitted on the U 995. I have seen 3 executions of the transmissionrods to the wheel, external all the way to the deck and then into the conningtower, the way shown on your picture and the original way on KNM Kaura  (U 995).

Yes, I also have seen the implementation of this rod similar to this one:

(U-1009 in Lisahally)

Having had another look at your Laboe U 995 picture I see they have removed the snortlockingrod completely so it doesn`t show an alternative. Why did they do that?

Well, that's a good question. I have another - on U-995 in Laboe is not visible the exhaust pipe branching forward the exhaust gas blowing valve box (connning tower stb) and going forward, over the deck, to the schnorchel mast.




(U-249 in Eriboll)


Was it like this before?

You are rigth, these devices were for greasepumping to the mechanical links partly outside (in the casing) the pressurehull. As far as I remember a few pipes led  from the pump via shut off valves in the pressurehull to distribution boxes for greasepoints outside . May be something for Christophers forward greaselines project?
We had a special man ,a "greaser", who was responsible for these points.

Great! Thank you for confirmation.


--
Thanks, regards

Maciek

[tore]

On the Laboe U 995 they have changed several things in this area. As you have noticed exhaustbend on deck stb fwd conningtower is removed,(see picture of the original below) snortmast lockingpin rod removed, original compasshousing changed with a newer version ( see original version below) and the snortmast topheadvalve exchanged with a hingefloat. E.g old constructions exchanged to new contructions,and some new constructions changed back to old. I don`t get it.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek
U 249 locking pin snort. Yes this how the original U 995 looked like.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Schnorchel

Yes, that right the 'black' painted handle is to control the control arm for locking/unlocking the pin within Schnorchel restraining bracket. There are two known styles for the control arm:

STYLE 1
The control arm runs through the spray deflector then along the outside of the conning tower unshielded to the deck.

STYLE 2
The control arm runs through the spray deflector then is shielded by a larger half round diameter pipe to the deck.

The

[tore]

Yes Simon, you are rigth.I just had a flash look at the Laboe U 995 and got the impression the germans had displayed a 3. alt. by taking the lockingpin rod into the conningtower just above the spraydeflector.At a second look I realised they just simply have removed the whole thing and just let the connectingend of the pin hanging free in the air, unbelievable.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

You are rigth, these devices were for greasepumping to the mechanical links partly outside (in the casing) the pressurehull. As far as I remember a few pipes led  from the pump via shut off valves in the pressurehull to distribution boxes for greasepoints outside . May be something for Christophers forward greaselines project?
We had a special man ,a "greaser", who was responsible for these points.

:-) Interesting! I always thought that was the coffee-maker for The Lords!! ;-) Now I have to dig up some info on these distribution boxes.

[tore]

You are rigth, these devices were for greasepumping to the mechanical links partly outside (in the casing) the pressurehull. As far as I remember a few pipes led  from the pump via shut off valves in the pressurehull to distribution boxes for greasepoints outside . May be something for Christophers forward greaselines project?
We had a special man ,a "greaser", who was responsible for these points.

:-) Interesting! I always thought that was the coffee-maker for The Lords!! ;-) Now I have to dig up some info on these distribution boxes.

Christopher. Coffee-maker! You should know better, the coffee was made almost in the crews lavatory and the coffeetaste would match any fancy taste made today!
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

original compasshousing changed with a newer version

That's interesting - I have always thought that U-995 (and KNM Kaura later) was equiped with this newer version compass housing (specific for the late versions of the type VIIC/41):



 (U-1023)

(U-1305)


It is significantly smaller than housing in the earlier versions of the type VIIC. I guess, it is because in the late VIIC/41 some parts of the salvage/emergency blowing installations which were also in this housing were removed.


I have been also wondering, how the magnetic compass (and the light transmission system to the control room) looked like.


Tore, one more question - I know, that apart from the depth gauges in the control room, there were two gauges in the forward and aft torpedo room each. On U-995 in Laboe I have never seen these. Do you remember, where they were located?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[NZSnowman]

Hi Tore

original compasshousing changed with a newer version

That's interesting - I have always thought that U-995 (and KNM Kaura later) was equiped with this newer version compass housing (specific for the late versions of the type VIIC/41):



 (U-1023)

(U-1305)


It is significantly smaller than housing in the earlier versions of the type VIIC. I guess, it is because in the late VIIC/41 some parts of the salvage/emergency blowing installations which were also in this housing were removed.


I have been also wondering, how the magnetic compass (and the light transmission system to the control room) looked like.


Tore, one more question - I know, that apart from the depth gauges in the control room, there were two gauges in the forward and aft torpedo room each. On U-995 in Laboe I have never seen these. Do you remember, where they were located?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Maciek & Tore, here is a list I started on the changes for U-995 a few years back. It is in way finish!

Upper Wintergarten Platform

• The original double ready-use ammunition containers for the 2 cm guns on the Upper Wintergarten Platform, replace with a single container by the Royal Norwegian Navy.
• Original bridge shelf is absent sometime after 1970

[tore]

Maciek
KNM Kaura VIIC/41 (U-995) had the old compass version. KNM Kya ( U926) and KNM Kinn (U1202) both VIIC had the new version.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek
Depth gauges.
You are rigth there were depthgauges, but I cannot rembember excatly were they were located. I think one was located to the port side in the engineroom next to the manoeuvering place fwd engines, but I am not sure. It was important to know the depth particulary while snorting.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
On KNM Kaura (U995), KNM Kya (U926) and KNM Kinn (U1202) they removed the wintergarten completely before they were put into norwegian service 1951-1952 and made a new different one as can be seen below. The structure was completely welded, no hatches or doors, the railing protruding about 30 cm out from the topfloor widening the circumference of the floor by having 3 floorbars. The structure tapered considerably down to the casingdeck as can be seen on the photo.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
Your list on changes of U995 further to my post on wintergarten.
We didn`t have the balkongerat originally, it must have been introduced sometime after 1959. We had only two pressure containers for storage on casingdeck, not 4 , KNM Kya (U 926) had 3 and KNM Kinn (U 1202) had 4. KNM Kaura ( U 995)  had as known the snortmast lockingpin in a case outside the conningtower on KNM Kya (U 926) inside the conningtower below the spraydeflector and on KNM Kinn (U 1202) the same I believe. Otherwise I agree to your list.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
Snortmast lockingpin.
You are mentioning 2 versions:        1. Through  spraydeflector and along outside the conningtower to the deck.
                                                          2.  Through spraydeflector and then shielded by a half round pipe to deck KNM Kaura (U995) version.
There is indeed a 3rd version, through the spraydeflector and then inside the conningtowercasing to the deck. The KNM Kya ( U926) and Kinn (U 1202) had both this version. See picture below of KNM Kya.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon
Snortmast lockingpin.
You are mentioning 2 versions:        1. Through  spraydeflector and along outside the conningtower to the deck.
                                                          2.  Through spraydeflector and then shielded by a half round pipe to deck KNM Kaura (U995) version.
There is indeed a 3rd version, through the spraydeflector and then inside the conningtowercasing to the deck. The KNM Kya ( U926) and Kinn (U 1202) had both this version. See picture below of KNM Kya.
Tore

Cool! Thank you! I have not seen that style before. I will update my article.

[tore]

KNM Kaura (U 995) Upper wintergarten modification. Further to my post on feb.15th. You list of changes done to U 995. I don`t remember any ammunitioncontainer on the norwegian version of the wintergarten. We never had any guns there. As I said it was a completly new construction.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
Snortmast lockingpin.
Just a correction to my previous post. U 1202 KNM Kinn did not have alt. 4 but alt. 2.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, do you have any close-up or clear pictures of the wooden deck? I am trying to workout the size of the wooden boards and the spacings.

Thanks, Simon.

[tore]

Tore, do you have any close-up or clear pictures of the wooden deck? I am trying to workout the size of the wooden boards and the spacings.

Thanks, Simon.

Simon
The only photo I have would be the below. The references could be the forward pressurecontainer which is placed at the same frame as the original or may be the original hatch in the foreground.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
The below picture migth give you some more info.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
As a follow up on my two pictures. Many modellers have shown great innovation in the colours of the wooden deck, although it was made of pine it had a fairly even dark grey almost black colour and you couldn`t see any shiny filister heads neither any salty deposit or barnacles even after 27 days submerged. To all those weatheringenthusiasts, if you want to give a correct impression of a VIIC behave at least to the colour of the wooden deck.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

 Thank, Tore! Both pictures were very useful. I also look at other pictures of the Type VIIC's late-war deck style. And I found something common with then...they are all different 
 

• The widths of the wooden boards are many.
• The spacing between the wooden boards is much the same.
• The workmanship with the decking also was very variable, some were very nice and very good, while others looked like it was build in a rush.

Below this the colour I have gone for. It

[NZSnowman]

 Tore, can you remember how the wooden deck was fix? Could you see the metal bolts or were there small wooden plugs reset within the bolt holes? 

[tore]

Thank, Tore! Both pictures were very useful. I also look at other pictures of the Type VIIC's late-war deck style. And I found something common with then...they are all different 
 

• The widths of the wooden boards are many.
• The spacing between the wooden boards is much the same.
• The workmanship with the decking also was very variable, some were very nice and very good, while others looked like it was build in a rush.

Below this the colour I have gone for. It’s a little lighter now, but it will darken after I get it printed.
 

Simon
I think you should  skip the yellowish tint. It was very dark almost black gray (like cinders if you know that kind of coke) and you didn`t see the woodgrainpattern.
The the wooden deck of U 995 at Laboe  has a terrible quality, warped and uneven it was definitely not like that, however the colour is not far from what it used to be.
Tore
tore
 Tore, can you remember how the wooden deck was fix? Could you see the metal bolts or were there small wooden plugs reset within the bolt holes? 

Simon I believe they were galvanized

[tore]

Simon
Fixing of wooden deckboards . I believe they were bolted with galvanized bolts having filisterheadsupwards approximately same colours as the deck. I cannot remember any wooden pegs.
Tore

[tore]

Simon.
I see you have left the conningtower hatch without any details,sure it will come. Don`t forget the catch keeping the hatch open.
The conningtowerhatch was very important as it was vital that the CO got on the top as quick as possible. The problem was that after having been submerged over a long periode the could be a substantial overpressure in the sub due to smaller leakages and fi using the airdriven exhaustvalvegrinder. Equalizing the pressuredifferance could take time and was often skipped as a routine we had always a man with a firm grip around the CO`s legs when he opened the hatch which flung open. I never saw it but was told that CO `s have been jettisoned out of the hatch. I noticed howewer that the air inside turned into fog by the sudden pressuredrop.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon.
I see you have left the conningtower hatch without any details,sure it will come. Don`t forget the catch keeping the hatch open.
The conningtowerhatch was very important as it was vital that the CO got on the top as quick as possible. The problem was that after having been submerged over a long periode the could be a substantial overpressure in the sub due to smaller leakages and fi using the airdriven exhaustvalvegrinder. Equalizing the pressuredifferance could take time and was often skipped as a routine we had always a man with a firm grip around the CO`s legs when he opened the hatch which flung open. I never saw it but was told that CO `s have been jettisoned out of the hatch. I noticed howewer that the air inside turned into fog by the sudden pressuredrop.
Tore

Very interesting, about the pressure different! I did note the hatch fastening. I decided to leave the hatch out at this stay as I was not happy with my original drawing. I want to redraw it.

Simon
Fixing of wooden deckboards . I believe they were bolted with galvanized bolts having filisterheadsupwards approximately same colours as the deck. I cannot remember any wooden pegs.
Tore

Thanks for the information 

Simon
The only photo I have would be the below. The references could be the forward pressurecontainer which is placed at the same frame as the original or may be the original hatch in the foreground.
Tore

Thanks for the pictures 

[tore]

Maciek
As a remark to my statement a few days ago concerning comparison of habitability standard between british and german submarines, I shall elaborate that a little more. You have of course rigth that the litterature is full of statement that the allied subs were better. VIICs were comparatively smaller than the US and british subs .I dont`know the US types so well but I sailed the british A,T and S class they were fairly comfortable, the A had even a "captains quarter" in a separate pressurehull adjacent to the conningtower. We had only U class of british make subs and if you compare the accommodation of those to a VIIC the latter was a winner. Both classes had about the same crewmembers but the U class was smaller inside and hence the accomodation was more cramped. The main reason for that is  it didn`t have saddletanks. The VIICs saddletanks made it also more comfortable in heavy sea (less rolling).  We had late nigths discussions about  of the design of the two types and I`m not sure if we had a clear winner, but apart from the accommodation question I think amongst the engineers the german diesels were the winners.
Tore

[tore]

Simon
Further to my post on the colour of the deck I found an interresting instruction from the German navy high command. You probably know the Submariners handbook no 1643 revised version of 1943, today published on the net by HNSA Historic Naval Ships Associaton. Section I

[TopherVIIC]

Tore,
On page 104 and 105 of the Manual at http://uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm it is stated that:
"... To support bulkheads and seal leakages, the following materials are provided on the boat: Leak shoring material. 4 Leak shoring timbers each 200 x 10 x 10 cm and 4 boards @ 75 x 30 x 4 cm are carried in the forward torpedo room"
Did the Norwegian Navy use the same equipment for leak sealing, or did they have different, post-war improvements?
Do you know where these were stored - Did they form the "walking deck" over the torpedos or were they extra gear carried in excess of the normal false flooring?
There is mention of other boards and planks for leak sealing in the diesel engine rooms and aft torpedo rooms. Do you know where these were stored as well?


Thanks for all of your input! 
Christopher

[tore]

Tore,
On page 104 and 105 of the Manual at http://uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm it is stated that:
"... To support bulkheads and seal leakages, the following materials are provided on the boat: Leak shoring material. 4 Leak shoring timbers each 200 x 10 x 10 cm and 4 boards @ 75 x 30 x 4 cm are carried in the forward torpedo room"
Did the Norwegian Navy use the same equipment for leak sealing, or did they have different, post-war improvements?
Do you know where these were stored - Did they form the "walking deck" over the torpedos or were they extra gear carried in excess of the normal false flooring?
There is mention of other boards and planks for leak sealing in the diesel engine rooms and aft torpedo rooms. Do you know where these were stored as well?


Thanks for all of your input! 
Christopher

Christopher
I cannot remember we carried any timber whatsoever. Occasionally we used some as help during maintenance work. But the  timber was left ashore. I doubt if the timber would be of any help for possible dammage while submerged. The pressure would too high in most cases. We had no other devices for major structure damagecontrol. I don`t know where the germans would possibly store the timber, sorry.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

...I don`t know where the germans would possibly store the timber, sorry....

Good to know! I will see if I can figure out where such timber was kept if it was actually carried at all, but will not worry too much over it. After all, the drawings show that type VII's had small boats stored under the top deck but it is known that they did not all carry them as planned.
Thanks again!

[SnakeDoc]

Tore
I have got a question - do you remember what this box is?

It is located in the aft, port corner of the forward torpedo room, and is labeled "AGOS".
I have no idea, what is this for, I suspect, it is not german, but introduced later, by Norwegians.


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Maciek
I cannot remember ever to have seen this box, so I presume it has been installed after my time onboard. It looks like an US made box to me and that migth give a clue. AGOS  was (is?) a name for US Ocean Surveillance Ships gathering acoustic datas in support of the Navys antisubmarine warfare branch. My guess is the box has something to do with equipment linked up to that.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

... I cannot remember ever to have seen this box, so I presume it has been installed after my time onboard.

It will be challenging to try to figure out what subtle changes were made from when the Germans had the boat in the first place, to when you were there and the Norwegians added and modified it, and the years after.
I am glad we have a primary source such as your self! Thanks!
Christopher

[tore]

Christopher
I guess you endeavour to make your model as close as possible to the original of the VIIC at a specific time. Changes seems to have been a continious process on the type. When we took over the U 995, she was still at the yard in Norway for retrofit and the Germans never sailed her as she was after that. All our 3 VIIC were different and you noticed it at once coming onboard. After KNM Kaura (U 995) had her retrofit at the yard she was a "frontline" sub. in our navy and in the last years a training sub til 1962. I have the impression she was used for different experiments in the last years and that`s probably when she got changes like the balkongerat and other stuff. When the Germans got her back, they made considerable changes again and used sometimes easy and even uncorrect changes (repairs).It is not easy to figure out what is original or phantasy on the Laboe  U995. In addition it seems they have given everybody a paintbrush so the could paint to they hearts desire camouflaging the details thoroughly in vivid colours. You have indeed a challenging task ahead of you in making you details and I wish you every success in your task. Allthough modest, I`m happy to be able to give a little help.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Maciek
I cannot remember ever to have seen this box, so I presume it has been installed after my time onboard. It looks like an US made box to me and that migth give a clue. AGOS  was (is?) a name for US Ocean Surveillance Ships gathering acoustic datas in support of the Navys antisubmarine warfare branch. My guess is the box has something to do with equipment linked up to that.
Tore

I have a feeling that the balkongeratand and this box were install at the same time 

[tore]

Simon
I believe you have a point and as an extra info even one of our VIICs, KNM Kya ( U 926) was converted with a sail conningtower after my time.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

I cannot remember ever to have seen this box, so I presume it has been installed after my time onboard. It looks like an US made box to me and that migth give a clue. AGOS  was (is?) a name for US Ocean Surveillance Ships gathering acoustic datas in support of the Navys antisubmarine warfare branch. My guess is the box has something to do with equipment linked up to that.

Thank you for answer.
--
Regards
Maciek

[tore]

Christopher.
You mentioned earlier you was a PADI Divemaster. I`m not going to start a new thread on that but this migth have some common submarine interest. As a part in our submarine engineerining training I got my first certificate as a shallow water diver in 1953 quite a bit before the scubadiving was common. The equipment was based on the submarine escape eqipment called the Davies apparatus using oxygen but modified for diving. The idea was that the engineering officer should be able to inspect and even make sketches of damages to  hulls or objects below the surface. As can be seen on the pictures below, we didn`t use flippers but boots with lead soles. Well at the bottom (6-8 meters) they lowered various items  which you should inspect and write or sketch  on a board. At the end came a sign : "do you like gin?"when you wrote "yes" on the board, you could surface and get your certificate. As you see on the pictures we used a rubber drysuit which pinched terribly. Sorry this post was a bit outside the VIIC topics
Tore

[Rokket]

This is Your thread, so now worries on topic. if it gets too wild we'll split. The system is meant to serve us, and not the other way around! Cool stuff by the way! It might be interesting to compare this setup with the US escape gear (Momsen Lung) and any others. I look at "parallel invention". My own personal survey of electrical plugs and sockets of modern times: USA = small and wimpy, with bad wire nut connections in junction boxes; UK = huge and chunky plugs, don't know about wiring; Australia = compact yet substantial, with really simple and secure screw connection inside boxes and switches. USA has good junction boxes, yet half the power of Aus, Aus has crappy exposed (internally) switch boxes. All do the same thing, and for practical purposes, equally well, but all are different!

[tore]

This is Your thread, so now worries on topic. if it gets too wild we'll split. The system is meant to serve us, and not the other way around! Cool stuff by the way! It might be interesting to compare this setup with the US escape gear (Momsen Lung) and any others. I look at "parallel invention". My own personal survey of electrical plugs and sockets of modern times: USA = small and wimpy, with bad wire nut connections in junction boxes; UK = huge and chunky plugs, don't know about wiring; Australia = compact yet substantial, with really simple and secure screw connection inside boxes and switches. USA has good junction boxes, yet half the power of Aus, Aus has crappy exposed (internally) switch boxes. All do the same thing, and for practical purposes, equally well, but all are different!

Rokket
Indeed quite similar to Momsen lung. The thing was they didn`t have the regulators at that time so they used the "bag" to adjust the ambient breathing pressure, inside the bag was  a cannister with barium hydrooxide absorbing the CO2.
You are rigth about the UK boxes they were huge and the design required a consumption of gunmetal which the germans even couldn`t dream about. The differences are  like fingerprints which make it possible to indentify various items in a hotchpotch like U 995 and that makes the research interesting. 
Tore

[Rokket]

You are optimistic when you call the challenge of 995 "interesting"! I'd use frustrating! Oh for a time machine...

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

Maciek & Tore, here is a list I started on the changes for U-995 a few years back. It is in way finish!
 
Bow Torpedo

• High Pressure Air bank № 4 missing.
• Torpedo Tube - Original torpedo tube № III replace, probable exchange by the Norwegian Navy launch some 533mm post war torpedoes.

Forward, bottom, stb torpedo tube.



Aft torpedo tube (original).


Do you remember details of the modifiacion of forward torpedo tube? It seems, that the tube as well as
whole external fittings and armature is orignal (or restored), but the interior of the tube is quite new. For
me it seems, like the tube was drilled out - the width of the tube walls was decreased and lined with four
guidnesses.


Some time ago I have tried to describe the german uboat's torpedo tubes and I'm still interested in all
details related with this topic.
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/component/option,com_flexicontent/Itemid,76/cid,66/id,337/view,items


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Maciek
What an impressive document you published. No, I cannot remember we did anything to the torpedotubes in my time, so I presume it migth have been done afterwards. Allthough torpedoes and tubes were not at all my job it was left to the torpedopeople onboard, I followed with interest their discussion on the german torpedoes which basicly dealt with the LUT torpedoes and I doubt if we ever had an other make but german in my time. We spent a lot of time and effort on the LUT. I presume you have seen my photo of a dummy torpedo surface shot just to check the ejection, otherwise see below
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Tore
Once again, thank you for your answers. I have got another question - I'm wondering what was your practice to measure the CO₂
concentration during longer submerged cruises?
From the reports, I know, the Germans used something called "air sampling tubes, a Drager-measuring apparatus, or an Orsat testing setup".
Was your approach different? Or did you use something similar? If so, could you explain how it worked?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[TopherVIIC]

Tore!
I LOVE your story about your initial scuba training! The pics of the early "submerged - engineering - inspection - apparatus" as I would have called it, was outstanding!
Some day I shall have to relate the story of a young trainee who invented the underwater yo-yo! :-)
Christopher

[tore]

Tore
Once again, thank you for your answers. I have got another question - I'm wondering what was your practice to measure the CO₂
concentration during longer submerged cruises?
From the reports, I know, the Germans used something called "air sampling tubes, a Drager-measuring apparatus, or an Orsat testing setup".
Was your approach different? Or did you use something similar? If so, could you explain how it worked?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Well Maciek I guess you have to realize this was back in the early fifthies and we did`t have very sofisticated outfit for oxygen and CO2 mesurements except for a box  from the germans with some chemicals which we tried once. I don`t remember what kind of chemicals but it was a fairly simple step to step instructions what to do.
We did`t make any science about it and used our experience and how the body reacted, primarely panting for the excessive CO2 and for oxygen, well honestly we allowed a cigarette per man occasionally (very seldom), if the match wouldn`t ligth we were low on oxygen.
I know most submarines were equipped with testkit, but I doubt if it was regulary used. An experienced submariner can feel a lot on his body about the quality of the air in additon to the time you have been submerged and the activity of the crew.
Tore

[tore]

Tore!
I LOVE your story about your initial scuba training! The pics of the early "submerged - engineering - inspection - apparatus" as I would have called it, was outstanding!
Some day I shall have to relate the story of a young trainee who invented the underwater yo-yo! :-)
Christopher

It`s easy to forget the enormous development which has taken place on diving and submarines the past 60 years. 60 years ago,in my time, escape excercises from sunken submarines were not common, but after a few disasters  prior to my submarinetraining (HMS Truculent and HMS Affray) the newspapers started to scream and in UK where I was trained, came eventually an 100`escape trainingtank which was brand new in 1953.
My commander in submarinetraining was furious about all the money spent on escape in stead of spending the money teaching people how to operated the subs. Different days I guess.
Tore 

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

Once again, thank you for your answers. I have got another question - I'm wondering what was your practice to measure the CO₂
concentration during longer submerged cruises?
From the reports, I know, the Germans used something called "air sampling tubes, a Drager-measuring apparatus, or an Orsat testing setup".
Was your approach different? Or did you use something similar? If so, could you explain how it worked?

Well Maciek I guess you have to realize this was back in the early fifthies and we did`t have very sofisticated outfit for oxygen and CO2 mesurements except for a box  from the germans with some chemicals which we tried once. I don`t remember what kind of chemicals but it was a fairly simple step to step instructions what to do.
We did`t make any science about it and used our experience and how the body reacted, primarely panting for the excessive CO2 and for oxygen, well honestly we allowed a cigarette per man occasionally (very seldom), if the match wouldn`t ligth we were low on oxygen.
I know most submarines were equipped with testkit, but I doubt if it was regulary used. An experienced submariner can feel a lot on his body about the quality of the air in additon to the time you have been submerged and the activity of the crew.

Well, I supposed it was some kind of chemical tests - thank you for the confirmation.


It is amazing, how small amount of oxygen is needed to keep the man breathing. I have read the memories of polish submariners operating on the Mediterranean. They said, that during long submerged cruise, they also  tried to light the match - and they could't, while they still were able breathing.


They said also, that when they had to use their personal CO₂ absorbers,  they had fun making tournaments, which one would be the hottest.


I wonder about another submariners practise - did you have to measure the sea water density during cruises? If so, what kind of equipment did you use?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Maciek
 Well, we never had competitions with the individual CO2 absorbers, they were clumsy and not very comfortable to wear. You are right with regards to the oxygen, we did`t suffer much due to that, it was primarely CO2 which caused the trouble. As a routine everybody who did`t have a watch to attend were lying in their bunks minimizing the oxygenconsumption. It`s unbelievable today to imagine we tried to ligth a cigarette under such conditions.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek
Salt density. Yes we measured the salinity (density). Particulary in the waters we were operating, fjords with rivers melting ice etc. It was primarely No1`s reponsibility. As far as I remember it was like a batterygravety measuredevice. Water density was of course important for the trim of the sub.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Tore-
Do you remember if the torpedomen stored the torpedoes with the contact pistols threaded onto the warheads of the unloaded torpedoes or were they kept locked up and put on prior to loading into the tubes? I know that might be outside the duties of a snort officer, but I wonder if that is something you might have known...
Christopher

[tore]

Tore-
Do you remember if the torpedomen stored the torpedoes with the contact pistols threaded onto the warheads of the unloaded torpedoes or were they kept locked up and put on prior to loading into the tubes? I know that might be outside the duties of a snort officer, but I wonder if that is something you might have known...
Christopher

Christopher.
As you say my duty as chief engineer was a bit far from this question, however I`m almost sure they were kept locked up knowing the norwegian procedures for ammo and warheads.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

I was an ammunition and EOD tech in the U.S. Marine corps, and I suspected that was the case. I dealt with ground ordnance and explosives, and never with naval explosives, but I believe the handling procedures were similar. When I stow my below-deck torpedoes I will be sure to keep the pistols in their locker! ;-)

[tore]

I was an ammunition and EOD tech in the U.S. Marine corps, and I suspected that was the case. I dealt with ground ordnance and explosives, and never with naval explosives, but I believe the handling procedures were similar. When I stow my below-deck torpedoes I will be sure to keep the pistols in their locker! ;-)

Seems to me the only sensible thing to do. Reloading the tubes was a timeconsuming and noisy job and wouldn`t be done immediately after you have launched your torpedoes. You would rather switch to silent running and sneak away to a safe area where you could reload and hence
the timesaving by having the contact pistols fitted wouldn`t be a point.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi
I also think, that pistols were removed from warheads of the reserve torpedoes. The pistols - especially contact, whiskers type - were rather fragile and in general mess and crowd of the forward torpedo room could be easily damaged.
Moreover, on the following photo of thet forward torpedo room of U-190 (IXC) I have marked the handles which are described by Kohl Fritz and Niestle Axel as the handles for the torpedo pistols.



--
Regards
Maciek

[TopherVIIC]

Thank you gentlemen - good information!
In the Marine Corps we had similar devices for mortar fuses and large projectiles like 155 mm HE to protect the fuse wells and detonation pistols. I suspect that the devices you circled above were used to manipulate the pistols and protect them while being loaded. A question I would have is where were the pistols stored? On the Type VII there are supposedly water-proof lockers in the aft end of the forward torpedo room. I would guess that they are stored there? Probably there is a similar locker for the aft torpedo room.
Christopher

[tore]

Thank you gentlemen - good information!
In the Marine Corps we had similar devices for mortar fuses and large projectiles like 155 mm HE to protect the fuse wells and detonation pistols. I suspect that the devices you circled above were used to manipulate the pistols and protect them while being loaded. A question I would have is where were the pistols stored? On the Type VII there are supposedly water-proof lockers in the aft end of the forward torpedo room. I would guess that they are stored there? Probably there is a similar locker for the aft torpedo room.
Christopher

Christopher
I cannot remember any pistols stored in bulkheadbrackets like on the type IXC- U 190. I guess we normally (in peace time at least) would have stored everything related to this in ammostorage compartment like the ammostorage below COs quarter. Again reloading the tubes with torpedoes having warheads with pistols fitted was not done very often in peacetime we mostly used dummytorpedoes for training. It migth be we would have done it differently in wartime but as I previously said I believe you would have time to fetch them from the ammocompartment when reloading. But I really don`t know as you know it was not my business.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi

I cannot remember any pistols stored in bulkheadbrackets like on the type IXC- U 190. I guess we normally (in peace time at least) would have stored everything related to this in ammostorage compartment like the ammostorage below COs quarter. Again reloading the tubes with torpedoes having warheads with pistols fitted was not done very often in peacetime we mostly used dummytorpedoes for training. It migth be we would have done it differently in wartime but as I previously said I believe you would have time to fetch them from the ammocompartment when reloading. But I really don`t know as you know it was not my business.

Tore, I think you are right - on type VIIC boats the pisols were not stored in that way - mainly because of lack of space. They could be stored in the munition room, below quaters, together with demolishion charges and ammo for the guns.
The brackets from the photo above were used to hold the canisters for the Pi-1 and Pi-2 pistols (as on this photo of the U-190 forward torpedo room, at backboard).



Similar canister can be visible on attached photo (U-826 after surrender, while disarming, probably in Loch Lisahally or Loch Ryan). Second photo presents the Pi-2 pistol (combined impact and magnetic type) itself.
--
Regards
Maciek

[tore]

Hi

I cannot remember any pistols stored in bulkheadbrackets like on the type IXC- U 190. I guess we normally (in peace time at least) would have stored everything related to this in ammostorage compartment like the ammostorage below COs quarter. Again reloading the tubes with torpedoes having warheads with pistols fitted was not done very often in peacetime we mostly used dummytorpedoes for training. It migth be we would have done it differently in wartime but as I previously said I believe you would have time to fetch them from the ammocompartment when reloading. But I really don`t know as you know it was not my business.

Tore, I think you are right - on type VIIC boats the pisols were not stored in that way - mainly because of lack of space. They could be stored in the munition room, below quaters, together with demolishion charges and ammo for the guns.
The brackets from the photo above were used to hold the canisters for the Pi-1 and Pi-2 pistols (as on this photo of the U-190 forward torpedo room, at backboard).



Similar canister can be visible on attached photo (U-826 after surrender, while disarming, probably in Loch Lisahally or Loch Ryan). Second photo presents the Pi-2 pistol (combined impact and magnetic type) itself.
--
Regards
Maciek

Well Maciek I think we have reached a conclusion to this question. Interesting pictures you posted.
Tore

[tore]

A few of you guys have in your projects approached the living quarters and the wooden lockers and closets. May be you would take interest in how the private storagesystem worked. The ratings,POs and junior officers had lockers for their personal belongings. The EO and No1 had a wardrobe and the CO both.
The wardrobes and lockers were adjacent to each persons bunk. They were not an ideal place to put your stuff. the humidity was high and all the brass had a tendency to turn green and the textile mouldy. I let the chief-electrician install electric lamps in the lockers, to keep it dry. That helped, but was probably not allowed. But if there are still lamps in the lockers of U 995, please remember that`s not the way it was originally.
Tore
 

[TopherVIIC]

Tore -
I love a good engineer! Well done!

[NZSnowman]

 Q: Engine Room - Assembly Patch

Tore, I was wondering, did you ever used the assembly patch, to remove the diesel engine, to service them? Or have the original diesel engine always stay within U-995?

[NZSnowman]

Q: Engine Room - Handle

Tore, was the handle for the Main Air Inlet valve in the engine room painted red?

[NZSnowman]

Q: Engine Room - Bilges

Tore, on plans for the engine of the Type VIIC

[tore]

Q: Engine Room - Assembly Patch

Tore, I was wondering, did you ever used the assembly patch, to remove the diesel engine, to service them? Or have the original diesel engine always stay within U-995?

Simon
The dieselengines on all VIICs were heavy and never removed from their shocks. The maintenance was done onboard. In case of major dammages at remote places we did the repairs  by the engineroomcrew and had all kind of spares onboard. Conrod big end bearings dammages were fairly common and on one occasion it resulted in crankpin dammages, We had to grind the crankpin by a homemade tool. Don`t think industrial diesels, the VIICs engines were true marine diesels  and I`m pretty sure the ME of U 995 are the originals, if you are in doubt look at crankpin no3 port engine it is about 2/10 th of a mm smaller than the rest.
Tore

[tore]

Q: Engine Room - Handle

Tore, was the handle for the Main Air Inlet valve in the engine room painted red?

It was red like all the important pressurehullvalves. Today U 995 look like having measles.
Tore

[tore]

Q: Engine Room - Bilges

Tore, on plans for the engine of the Type VIIC

[NZSnowman]

Tore, I was thinking about the box keels, and how they would have rested on the sea floor. There seen to be no direct contact between them and the bottom of the keel to help with the load distributions.
 
I was wondering perhaps they were used to restrain that part of the boat while it was in dry-dock being constructed. I imagine that the two engines are very heavy and would put a large amount of stress on the framing around this area.
 
After the engines were installed and just before flooding the dock, they could not remove box keels, so build the keel around them and left them in place.

[tore]

Tore, I was thinking about the box keels, and how they would have rested on the sea floor. There seen to be no direct contact between them and the bottom of the keel to help with the load distributions.
 
I was wondering perhaps they were used to restrain that part of the boat while it was in dry-dock being constructed. I imagine that the two engines are very heavy and would put a large amount of stress on the framing around this area.
 
After the engines were installed and just before flooding the dock, they could not remove box keels, so build the keel around them and left them in place.

Simon
I`m not sure if I understand you correct, may be we are talking about two different things. You sure  have a crossection drawing of the boxkeel which goes all the way from frame 12 to frame 65. You would see it is a very strong thick steelboxshaped "beam"providing a very wide flat seating far wider than a normal ship. Inside the box are thick steelcrossplates placed exactly on the pressurehull where the inside frames are situated all along the flat restingplate on the keel apart from the area were the Kingstonvalves (Flutklappe) are. In addition to that I believe it was a longitudenal centreplate inside the box.This makes it possible to put the sub at the seabottom even when the seabed is a bit rough. When drydocking a normal ship you have to taylorplace wooden blocks so they are placed excactly under the frames for distribution of the stresses and every ship has a dockingplan for that. The sub carries its own foundation along and don`t need that thanks to the long superstrong boxkeel from frame 12 to 65. Another thing is that the sub has almost neutral boyancy hence the weigthstresses are small compared to that of a drydocking. The below picture is of Kaura in drydock resting almost entirely on the boxkeel but have wooden supports on those areas outside the keel illustrates perhaps the drydock question. Please come back if it`s still not clear.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

That photo looks almost as if there is a torpedo in #3!

[tore]

That photo looks almost as if there is a torpedo in #3!

Christopher
No I dont`t think we had a torpedo in the tube. I think they were working on the inside and you see reflection from a lamp.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

I know Tore - I was joking!

[tore]

I know Tore - I was joking!

As a Marine you should know not to joke about ammo that`s seriuos stuff.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

I am entirely sure that the Norwegian Navy is competent enough to remove live ammunition from its tubes before throwing her up on dry-dock! Where else are the torpedomen going to nap during lunchtime? :-)

[tore]

I am entirely sure that the Norwegian Navy is competent enough to remove live ammunition from its tubes before throwing her up on dry-dock! Where else are the torpedomen going to nap during lunchtime? :-)

Right Christopher!
Tore

[tore]

Simon
I think I understand what you mean. I dont think the two red circled items on your drawing has anything to do with the engine mounting. There are in total 4 such to be seen in the boxkeel between frame 17 and 18,28 and 29 aft and then frame 37-38 and 54-55. The sub was built as described below.
I believe it is a possibility these were openings for the huge liftingstrap when the two pressurehull parts were joined at the slip.
The building of the VIICs was done in the following succession I believe. First the whole boxkeel was placed on a trolley at the slipway. Then the two prerolled curved pressure hull parts appr 125 tonnes each were hanging in a huge crane and joined by welding, followed by frames and smaller steelpieces all welded together, then it was launched and towed to the fittingout quay where the engines were lowered into the hull through pressurehullopenings above the engineroom which were closed by welding.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

I had always wondered what those were also - your description makes it easy to picture its configuration through the box-keel. I just texted and showed the drawing to my sister who worked at one time for a company called Safety Sling, and she had her former engineers confirm that it was probable what they were for. They agree with you! :-)
Christopher

[tore]

I had always wondered what those were also - your description makes it easy to picture its configuration through the box-keel. I just texted and showed the drawing to my sister who worked at one time for a company called Safety Sling, and she had her former engineers confirm that it was probable what they were for. They agree with you! :-)
Christopher

Christopher
You certainly have your supportgroup stand by.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Christopher
You certainly have your supportgroup stand by.
Tore

Tore - I am just lucky she still has connections - she does not work for those folk any more, but is still on friendly terms. They just happen to provide tools for lifting very heavy industrial type things. :-)
Christopher

[tore]

Christopher
You certainly have your supportgroup stand by.
Tore

Tore - I am just lucky she still has connections - she does not work for those folk any more, but is still on friendly terms. They just happen to provide tools for lifting very heavy industrial type things. :-)
Christopher

In those days before the libertyships and sectionbuildings were common, heavy lifts of 100-150 tonnes were not done at every yard. The germans were pretty advanced  not only  technically but productionwise as well.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Thanks, guys! 

[tore]

Further to the question of the holes in the boxkeel center plate. I found a description as to the way VIICs were built at Blohm & Voss shipyard. If you go to http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-93INT.htm (an interrogation report) you will find a description of the stages of the VIIC construction on page 19 and 20 which pretty much support our theory.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Q: Engine Room - Flooring

Tore, did the original flooring in the engine room have draining holes like the conning tower floor (Right) or was it solid (Left)?



Thanks, Simon.

[NZSnowman]

Q: Engine Room - Photograph

Tore, in the original wartime photograph below, someone is checking diesel level in the engine room (I am sure a job you did a few 100

[TopherVIIC]

Simon,
It looks like a linked rubber matte, possibly anti-slip, fatigue reduction, or for sound reduction. It might be for all of the above! We had similar mattes in our machine shop.

[NZSnowman]

Simon,
It looks like a linked rubber matte, possibly anti-slip, fatigue reduction, or for sound reduction. It might be for all of the above! We had similar mattes in our machine shop.

I see what you are talking about 

I have spend two years looking at this picture try to workout that it is