Forward crew section VII / 3D model / 1/72

[Marko]

Cheers guys!

Sorry that ive been off for so long. Unfortunately i had loads of work and could not reach modeling, and my modeling desk got confiscated by my girlfriend, so actually everything was on halt since my last post. I also separated the topics of the design and the actual kit build, solely for procedure order and clarity.

Finally i could start the design on the interior, here is the very first part. The design analogy will follow the CMK's sets since they have their design style, and since i would alter it it would be visible that somehow the sets don't get together. This calls for minor deviation from original, but anyways some adjustments are needed due to scale and simplification. However, i would highly appreciate any photos, films, book titles, articles from newspapers, anything what would help on the design accuracy. since CMK made the majority, i will design only the forward crew section with radio/sonar room and toilette? + rear torpedo room, and maybe even the tower interior. I think everything rest has already been done, correct me if i'm wrong

the very first part that has been made is the bed guard which prevents falling off in the rough seas. So, the voyage begins!



by the way, part looks huge here, however it is long 22,27 mm, 6.3 mm wide and 0.13 mm thin

in the meantime i finished the small valve, the 3.7 mm in diameter, thickness same as before; 0.13



any advices or critics are welcome, help me make those parts the best as possible. The very first test print will be made as soon as i finish the valves, and the frame for the parts.

cheers,
Marko

[Rokket]

looking good!

[TopherVIIC]

I was thinking in the wrong scale! Looks like a good start! :-)

[tore]

Cheers guys!

Sorry that ive been off for so long. Unfortunately i had loads of work and could not reach modeling, and my modeling desk got confiscated by my girlfriend, so actually everything was on halt since my last post. I also separated the topics of the design and the actual kit build, solely for procedure order and clarity.

Finally i could start the design on the interior, here is the very first part. The design analogy will follow the CMK's sets since they have their design style, and since i would alter it it would be visible that somehow the sets don't get together. This calls for minor deviation from original, but anyways some adjustments are needed due to scale and simplification. However, i would highly appreciate any photos, films, book titles, articles from newspapers, anything what would help on the design accuracy. since CMK made the majority, i will design only the forward crew section with radio/sonar room and toilette? + rear torpedo room, and maybe even the tower interior. I think everything rest has already been done, correct me if i'm wrong

the very first part that has been made is the bed guard which prevents falling off in the rough seas. So, the voyage begins!



by the way, part looks huge here, however it is long 22,27 mm, 6.3 mm wide and 0.13 mm thin

in the meantime i finished the small valve, the 3.7 mm in diameter, thickness same as before; 0.13



any advices or critics are welcome, help me make those parts the best as possible. The very first test print will be made as soon as i finish the valves, and the frame for the parts.

cheers,
Marko

Hi marko!
I`m fairly new in this forum and is not really sure how much details you are after, I beg for excuse if I`m submitting obvious infos for you. The arrangement for for this section you`ll find belove. The Co`s quarter could be shut off all the way by a green curtain.The wardroom was usually arranged in such way that the junior officers bunks were folded down as a bench accommodating 2(3).
The EO`s bunk was the lower and No1`s on the top.  Towards the stb. hullside between the FW tanks and bunks  were storagelockers. The stb bunks did not have any bunkguards, both bunks had dark green curtains and a small brass reading lamp above the head on fwd bulkhead.On the aft stb. cupboardwall was placed a small folding writingtable, The woodwork was light naturalcoloured oak.The WC had a tiny washbasin on fwd. bulhead. This WC was only for officers and chief PO. As you for sure know the ratings WC was on the stb side in the galley. The bunks not used for benches were usually made and the bunkclothes were wowen in a blue and white checkedpattern sligthly less than 2x2 cm.
Your bunkguarddesign is a little strange to me, the lower bar seems to be "an extra" and would possibly belong to the bunk.The guards were made of rods/pipes about 25-30 mm diameter aluminium ( se picture below). If you think I can be of any help please ask.
Regards
Tore

[Marko]

Thank you for the additional info, i appreciate that. Currently i am using as reference pictures of the Laboe's U-995 uboot, scenes from Das Boot miniseries and naturally the interior designed by CMK, and sketches from various books that i came across. Basically i want get near CMK's style, so the additional sections wont clash each other in terms of design.

However the laser sintering procedure also has its limitations, material thickness is minimum 0.3 mm in any direction, so back to the drawing board and change dimensions, on the other hand, i could purchase some metal sheets and etch the valves and bed railings myself, or try to buy additional from CMK, if they could produce spares.

Though, im still at work now. When i get back at home ill re-dimension the parts and put them up for evaluation

Your bunkguarddesign is a little strange to me, the lower bar seems to be "an extra" and would possibly belong to the bunk.

indeed, the CMK designed it in this way aswell, i guess for the strength issues, since the part is very thin, so with this bar it can be glued up to the bunk substantially stiffer. Could also make it from round rods, but i think due to diameters, it could not be produced with the sintering.

regards,
Marko

[NZSnowman]

Hi marko!
I`m fairly new in this forum and is not really sure how much details you are after, I beg for excuse if I`m submitting obvious infos for you. The arrangement for for this section you`ll find belove. The Co`s quarter could be shut off all the way by a green curtain.The wardroom was usually arranged in such way that the junior officers bunks were folded down as a bench accommodating 2(3).
The EO`s bunk was the lower and No1`s on the top.  Towards the stb. hullside between the FW tanks and bunks  were storagelockers. The stb bunks did not have any bunkguards, both bunks had dark green curtains and a small brass reading lamp above the head on fwd bulkhead.On the aft stb. cupboardwall was placed a small folding writingtable, The woodwork was light naturalcoloured oak.The WC had a tiny washbasin on fwd. bulhead. This WC was only for officers and chief PO. As you for sure know the ratings WC was on the stb side in the galley. The bunks not used for benches were usually made and the bunkclothes were wowen in a blue and white checkedpattern sligthly less than 2x2 cm.
Your bunkguarddesign is a little strange to me, the lower bar seems to be "an extra" and would possibly belong to the bunk.The guards were made of rods/pipes about 25-30 mm diameter aluminium ( se picture below). If you think I can be of any help please ask.
Regards
Tore

Tore, I read that the German's used cork insulation inside the U-boats along the pressure hull. Can you remember see any cork insulation inside Kaura, I think it was about 30 mm thick.

[tore]

Hi marko!
I`m fairly new in this forum and is not really sure how much details you are after, I beg for excuse if I`m submitting obvious infos for you. The arrangement for for this section you`ll find belove. The Co`s quarter could be shut off all the way by a green curtain.The wardroom was usually arranged in such way that the junior officers bunks were folded down as a bench accommodating 2(3).
The EO`s bunk was the lower and No1`s on the top.  Towards the stb. hullside between the FW tanks and bunks  were storagelockers. The stb bunks did not have any bunkguards, both bunks had dark green curtains and a small brass reading lamp above the head on fwd bulkhead.On the aft stb. cupboardwall was placed a small folding writingtable, The woodwork was light naturalcoloured oak.The WC had a tiny washbasin on fwd. bulhead. This WC was only for officers and chief PO. As you for sure know the ratings WC was on the stb side in the galley. The bunks not used for benches were usually made and the bunkclothes were wowen in a blue and white checkedpattern sligthly less than 2x2 cm.
Your bunkguarddesign is a little strange to me, the lower bar seems to be "an extra" and would possibly belong to the bunk.The guards were made of rods/pipes about 25-30 mm diameter aluminium ( se picture below). If you think I can be of any help please ask.
Regards
Tore

Tore, I read that the German's used cork insulation inside the U-boats along the pressure hull. Can you remember see any cork insulation inside Kaura, I think it was about 30 mm thick.

No we didn`t have any corkinsulation on our 3 VIIC`s. The corkinsulation was primarely used for preventing condensation on the plating towards the seaside particulary in the tropics. although we had a fairly high humidity inside, our golden buttons and stripes turned green after a while, we were not really bothered with humidity.
Regars Tore

[tore]

Marko, I forgot a very important detail on the interior of the wardroom, on the bulkhead rigth at the aft stb cupboard was a blackboard, rigth underneath in the floor was the hatch giving access to the fwd batterycompartment. Every morning the chief electrician opened the hatch and placed himself on a flat trolley keeping his nose down and in this way was able to skim the top at the batteries taking acidreadings which he carefully noted on the blackboard. With todays average mans weigth I guess they do it different.
tore

[TopherVIIC]

Marko-
I come from a machining background as well as an
Artistic background.
It seems to me that from a machining point of view, knowing some of what is needed to design
something like etched (cut/machined) parts, you may have a good start. As Tore mentioned, and as will I, this is a start. I do not mean in any way to short change your drawing, skills, or design goals... Quite the opposite!
Keep working and do your best to make your parts look like the real references and you will do fine.
You have started on something that may blossom into fantastically designed pieces! Keep working! It is how we all grow!
Cheers!

Christopher

[Marko]

Thank you for support. No worries, ill take the critiques in the positive way. though some modifications are inevitable due to laser sintering process. Laser beam measures 0.4mm, the geometry allows this way minimum of 0.3mm thick (thin) walls in any direction; X,Y, or Z. thats why im considering buying spares from CMK - those are approx 0.13 - 0.15 mm thick. however, ill try them get printed with the double thickness, and if it will be really off, then ill try to get some additional parts, or etch them myself (well with some help).

Now down to the business:
in case you have been wondering what's up, well i measured contours multiple times with the contour copying "comb", preparing silhouettes on a sheet of paper, scanning them, and drafting with software till i got something what i was satisfied with the fit in the hull, although i still have to double check the rear torpedo compartment front wall. By the way, there are some odd lines here and there, those are just reference lines so that i know what are maximum and minimums on the upper and lower positions



regards,
Marko

[Rokket]

Love this project, good progress, waiting for more!

[TopherVIIC]

Marco -
Is this for the Revell 1:72 Kit?

[Marko]

Thank you Wink 
Topher, indeed it is for the revell's 1/72 VII u-boats.

I did second check to the rib drawings, and since those are pretty much accurate, so i will be able to transfer them to the solids, so the external structures could be designed first in order to get the final outlines of the sections.

[TopherVIIC]

looking good! I am doing a scratchbuild of a  VIIC/41 but I want to build a revell kit also. I love the many ways that people render them! Now i just need to find one. I have heard that they are re-released! Yay!

[Marko]

cheers,

here is a brief update, not really much, but i managed to assemble first test parts. these are designed paper-thin, and will be developed and printed onto cardstock, testglued and check for fit.
here is the front section:


these are only main outlines, floor is much too outwards comparing to CMK's sets, finer adjustments will be made after test assembly.

now i have an issue, CMK designed torpedo sections floor around 2.5 mm lower than the command compartment, the rest line up with command compartment within a minimal deviation. Was that in the actual U-boat too? Could the front crew compartment floor be sloped or inserted with a slight "step" between each rib? This design was lined up with the command compartment and has 2mm step when passing to fwd torpedo room. Any advices?

regards,
Marko

[tore]

cheers,

here is a brief update, not really much, but i managed to assemble first test parts. these are designed paper-thin, and will be developed and printed onto cardstock, testglued and check for fit.
here is the front section:


these are only main outlines, floor is much too outwards comparing to CMK's sets, finer adjustments will be made after test assembly.

now i have an issue, CMK designed torpedo sections floor around 2.5 mm lower than the command compartment, the rest line up with command compartment within a minimal deviation. Was that in the actual U-boat too? Could the front crew compartment floor be sloped or inserted with a slight "step" between each rib? This design was lined up with the command compartment and has 2mm step when passing to fwd torpedo room. Any advices?

regards,
Marko

Marko
 The floorhigths in relation to the controlroomfloor varies in each compartment. Going from the CR and fwd. COs quarter,Wardroom and CPO mess floor all a little bit higher, forwd torpedoroom is substantial lower.
Tore

[tore]

Further to my earlier post. As far as I remember it was two steps down( appr 35-40 cm) from the CPO mess to the fwd torpedoroom floor. I believe the floor in the torpedoroom accommodation section was not sloped in any way. Between the tubes I don`t remember.
Tore

[Marko]

OOOh, now those steps downwards explains a lot of troubles with aligning. Many thanks on that information.

Well, i assembled the pieces together and i am not satisfied with the fit of the parts, i will do another tracings, since if i don't get the outlines perfect, the rest wont fit as well.

[TopherVIIC]

Marko,
This should help illustrate the difference in deck height that Tore was telling you about.
The deck in the torpedo room of a Type VIIC and a VIIC41 is indeed lower than the deck in the CPO berthing/mess section.
Actually the deck I indicated is a removable deck. Torpedos are stored in chocks below it. Torpedoes could be stored above also,
with a false plywood deck over them to be just about the level of the lower bunks.
Note that the hatch is raised above both decks so in any case one had to raise their feet to get through from either direction.


Hope that helps a little! :-)
Keep up the research!
Christopher

[Marko]

hello Christopher,

many thanks for the blueprint image. May i ask from what literature you took it?

Marko

[TopherVIIC]

Marko - That one is one of the K

[Marko]

Thank you Christopher,

(also on the information where i can find a set of plans), will get them as soon as i find some extra funds for modeling
well, progress is slow, test assembly showed some mistakes in the outline, second test is on its way, as soon as i solve technical difficulties with printer.

In the meantime, im working with bits and pieces whenever i have some spare time, here is the newest result, has bit less details than CMK's part, but thats only due the technical limitations, tiny bits and pieces can be added by scratching some of the fiddliest parts.


note, i didn't draw a series of cells, since this can be done in sub-assembly, and later on stacked simply together.

regards,
Marko

[Marko]

Hello guys,

for the past week i have been refining the cross sections to assure the best fit possible. This is what i came across till now. Note, the part seems a bit "wavy" since i used 120g/m^2 paper, so the variety of factors cant get it straight. The design was slightly under measured ti assure good fit (-0.5mm), final touch ups will be required at assembly either ways. Now i finally got the frame of the forward sections within i can work in.

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
These pages might be of use to you:
http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/intecnico.htm

If you dig around on the entire site, you will find gobs of great information that may prove useful to you.
Your drawings are coming along! Keep up the study!
Cheers
Christopher

[Marko]

Thank you for the additional resources Christopher, will have to browse that page, though spanish is really not my language, will do my best.

here is minor update, i made finally some solids out of those bits and pieces, some are not in scale, but i did my measurements around CMK's parts to assure consistency. There is a lot more work to be done, but now i finally can get feeling how the thing could look like. On the picture i left the pieces webbed and not shaded, so the depth of the parts would be more apparent.



regards,
Marko

[Marko]

well, some progress. I thought it would be wise to add toilette and sink, which are a bit fictional, since dimensions wont allow accurate presentation. Doors have been removed, those will be glued on opened i guess..

[TopherVIIC]

Marko,
It is always challenging to adapt someone elses engineering to different projects. The engineers at Ravell made their model in the way they did as it suited their manufacturing needs. I am sure the last thing they ever planned was somebody coming in with dremel tool a-flying to create cut-away ships.
You are doing a fine job. Keep an eye on the details, have fun, and keep us posted!
Cheers!

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
Made changes in this forum and in my brain housing group to be able to spell your name right. I am so sorry I have been spelling it wrong! Talk about details!
 Cheers!

[Marko]

Oh, no problem, many people get confused about that

After i have drawn first set of bunks, i noticed that the toilette's front wall should be aligned with the rear bunk portion.


So basically i scrapped almost whole yesterdays work, have redrawn the rear wall and roof of the crew quarters, also the toilet can get better measures now. Will post new photos after work, i just could not justify to post them yesterday, since i lost sense of time in the evening, and when i decided to pulled the plug for a day was suddenly 2:45 am. Not a pleasant view when you have to  get up at 6:30

regards,
Marko

[tore]

Marko
Interesting progress. I don`t know how many details you would put in this area,but here are a few. Of course you have noticed the pressurebulkhead towards  the controlroom was concave looking from the wardroom and hence the the bulkhead pressurehatchdoor was fitted on a tuberim to provide a seating. The curvature of the hatch was a bit different and the circumference a slotted rim for the lockingring.
The door for the toilet was hinged to the rigth (forward) and had a small (10-15 cm diam) sightglass a little off center in the upper part. The toilet had,for a layman, an intricate bundle of pipes,handles and valves to operate. It created difficult situations in having guests onboard, like on coctailparties, it was not easy for the guests and particulary women to operate the handles. Wrong sequence in opening and shutting could lead to "blowbacks". Looking forward to your next step.
Tore

[Rokket]

more progress on another interesting project! Yes, the details make a difference and are great spicers! Love the toilet!

[Marko]

Well Tore,

i really would not like to complicate the sections too far since as fist issue is the technology limitation, and the second neither did the CMK's designers complicate, so if i would, designs would clash a lot. I will be adding wiring and bigger chunks of piping by hand later on the finished product, so probably some of the piping will be there but not the tiny valves, and will be added at the assembly.

i added the famous toilet window (darn what a privacy) here are some samples with the corrected toilet forward wall, from different angles:


and now, onto the bunks and its accessories
thanks for the kind words guys, also feel free to add comments like Tore did, so i can even improve it a bit more.

regards,
Marko

[tore]

Well Tore,

i really would not like to complicate the sections too far since as fist issue is the technology limitation, and the second neither did the CMK's designers complicate, so if i would, designs would clash a lot. I will be adding wiring and bigger chunks of piping by hand later on the finished product, so probably some of the piping will be there but not the tiny valves, and will be added at the assembly.

i added the famous toilet window (darn what a privacy) here are some samples with the corrected toilet forward wall, from different angles:


and now, onto the bunks and its accessories
thanks for the kind words guys, also feel free to add comments like Tore did, so i can even improve it a bit more.

regards,
Marko

Marko
This is about rigth, but put it 10-15 cm to the rigth and 5 cm higher. With two tiny toilets on 46 men you would be sure nobody used it as a quite readingroom there was no privacy onboard a sub. believe it or not we had a small mirror above the washbasin, a few guys did shave.
tore

[Marko]

Marko
This is about rigth, but put it 10-15 cm to the rigth and 5 cm higher. With two tiny toilets on 46 men you would be sure nobody used it as a quite readingroom there was no privacy onboard a sub. believe it or not we had a small mirror above the washbasin, a few guys did shave.
tore

erm, you mean the 10-15 cm to the right and 5 cm higher, the toilette window? 15 cm = 2 mm to right, 5 cm = 0,7 mm higher
was the window not centered?

yea, i can say that, if 4 member family has troubles sometimes with toilette and bathroom use, i cant even imagine how a crew of 40-50 could manage it, even with two of them...

minor update:
bunks and cabinets; i know that on the real sub it was slightly different arrangement, but i had to make a decision either to follow the photos and plans, or follow the CMK's rear crew quarter (i chose the second option)

[tore]

Marko
 Yes it was off center say 3 mm to the rigth and I correct myshelf 3-4 mm up on your drawing.
Tore

[tore]

Wardroom and CPO mess
Next to the WC was the CPO mess only with 4 bunks 2 on stb and 2 on port (upper and lower) and towards the port bulkhead(pressurehull) 4 wooden lockers. Between the mess and the wardroom was a bulkhead with a door off center. On the port side of the wardroom (after the bulkhead) was the 2 junior officers bunks however they were not in line with the CPO officers bunks but retracted together with 4 wooden lockers some 50-75 cm towards the port (pressurehull) which made the wardroom wider.  In the wardroom normally the upper bunk was lowered and used as a seatback when seated around the officers diningtable. Thus it was substancial difference between the two rooms. The arrangement did not resemble the POs mess aft of the controlroom.I am posting a small sketch below hoping to explain what I am trying to say. May be I`m too keen on the details here.
Tore

[Marko]

Aha, i know what you mean, i have these schematics:

though im not sure how can i align absolutely everything up. revell parts require their own, CMK has its own design, and there are these plans, hard to add them all up, though i will do my best to modify it a bit more, and will probably smash up the rear wall again

[TopherVIIC]

Marko,
Believe me- getting drawings to reconcile is quite challenging. Simon and I can attest to that! Sometimes you have to settle for an amalgam. Not everybody's drawings are 100% accurate. You are also trying to fit the drawings into a model that is good, but not perfect. Look at some of the things I have put together- I am building my VIIC/41 from the keel up and she is still troublesome. At best we can gather drawings, look at photos and do the best we can to make something sort of close to what we want to portray.

[Marko]

well, i started major remodelling the of the bunks and rear wall. ehm, the toilet window, if i put it to measures that you provided (Tore) it would be almost at the top of the door and tot the far right, almost at the edges. Do you have perhaps a photo of those doors? It would be much easier to measure up dimensions there.

Oh, one more thing, how did the dining table and chairs look like? were chairs mounted on wardrobe closet and did seat swing outward? And the tables, were made as classic dining tables or was special design there?

[tore]

well, i started major remodelling the of the bunks and rear wall. ehm, the toilet window, if i put it to measures that you provided (Tore) it would be almost at the top of the door and tot the far right, almost at the edges. Do you have perhaps a photo of those doors? It would be much easier to measure up dimensions there.

Oh, one more thing, how did the dining table and chairs look like? were chairs mounted on wardrobe closet and did seat swing outward? And the tables, were made as classic dining tables or was special design there?

Marko
Sorry I have no drawing, and I cannot find any hole in the door on the net. Make it simple place the hole 5-10 cm from the rigth dooredge and about the same from the top.
Tore
To

[Marko]

Okay, thats around 1,3 mm from both edges, i guess it will be fine. regarding the dining tables and chairs, how were those made?

[tore]

well, i started major remodelling the of the bunks and rear wall. ehm, the toilet window, if i put it to measures that you provided (Tore) it would be almost at the top of the door and tot the far right, almost at the edges. Do you have perhaps a photo of those doors? It would be much easier to measure up dimensions there.

Oh, one more thing, how did the dining table and chairs look like? were chairs mounted on wardrobe closet and did seat swing outward? And the tables, were made as classic dining tables or was special design there?

The table was quite ordinary nothing fancy, don`t copy the surface of the present U 995, woodwork same colour as the lockers, the cupboard at the left contained china and cutlery, 3 persons could be seated at the bunk. The table could be extended towards rigth, where you usually had a folded seat folding downwards as far as I remember it was fixed to the bulkhead. You would avoid having chairs toward the aisle as people were running back and forth. I usually sat at the other side of the aisle eating at the small folding table fitted on to the cupboard towards aft. You normally could seat max 5 persons around the table.May be the posted drawing below give you an idea.
Tore

[Marko]

okay, some modifications; i will now go step by step each section of bunks, the lockers and cupboards are made by CMK's analogy and may not be entirely correct, but some analogy has to be consistent. Now im thinking of expanding that mid-wall to get tables and chairs into it, not sure if i should leave it like this or extend it to full wall...
By the way, is the window correct? At the moment is 1,3mm tangentially inserted, if it would be 1,3 centered it would be a lot closer to edges (almost at the edge of surface)

[TopherVIIC]

Marko
Here is the only pic I have of the forward head hatch, located on the Backboard side, where you have it.
Hope it helps. Note that the ceiling of the head is lower than the height of the druckkorper - the ventilation and universal jointed valve drive links, and several HP and LP air connections go through the bulkhead above the head.
Christopher

[tore]

What a relieve Christopher, it`s the way I remember it apart from I was sure it was off center. May be I was mixed up with  the ventilation
opening on the door for foodstorage. That`s off center I believe.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Tore - While we are on the subject of the Forward Head - was there a lamp in the socket in the upper left of the panel as shown in the photo? Did the famous "tooshie - light" as portrayed in Das Boat reside on your boat?

[Marko]

uhm, so it is in the centre then? Okay, will redraw it, it takes only 30 seconds anyways

this is what i came up with till now, it is not exactly accurate, the forward chair should be attached to a food store rather to bulkhead, but if i would do the foodstore cabinet, i would loose the section view that i (we) are after, so im calling that one "as is", note chairs and table are utmost simplified 

If i will get the thumbs up, i can move forward to the mid section bunks (with exception of the infamous toilette window ) Of, by the way christopher, i see that you have some pictures from the Laboe's boat, could you please round up pictures from the forward crew quarters with radio and sonar room? i would highly appreciate it, the only photo references that i have are some random photos found on internet, which are difficult to sort out, since those were made more for memories instead of modelling purposes 

[tore]

Tore - While we are on the subject of the Forward Head - was there a lamp in the socket in the upper left of the panel as shown in the photo? Did the famous "tooshie - light" as portrayed in Das Boat reside on your boat?

Nope I can`t remember that.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Marko
Try this:
Almost at the bottom of the page is a shot of the WC Backbord Seite. The pic labeled Reserve WC is not the head you are working on. You will also see pictures labeled Oberfeldwebel Wohn und Schlafraum darunter Batterieraum. That will give you an indication of the tables in the wardroom you are drawing.

http://uboot995.homepage.t-online.de/index.htm/U995/Innenansichten_U995/innenansichten_u995.html

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
I found some more pics. I do not remember where I got these, so I hope I am not stepping on anybody. Forgive me if it is so.
https://kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/__VortHeadIMG_6670.jpg
https://kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/__VortHeadIMG_6674.jpg
https://kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/__VortHeadIMG_6719.jpg
https://kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/__VortIMG_6541.jpg
https://kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/__VortPOIMG_6542.jpg

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
Keep in mind that there are always visual references to the size of things if you look for them. Internal frames (D.Spant) are spaced for the most part at 600mm (60 cm) apart. The drawings, and photos of the forward head show it taking up a hair wider than a full span between frames. (I have later modified this to read 800mm instead of 700mm) I would guess it was 700mm at the very widest (See note above). Its forward bulkhead is on a frame line, and its aft end extends slightly past the #62 D.Spt. (added after first post) There is a bulkhead on the aft end that is not square in the head - see the drawing top.jpg
Marko -
I hope I am not floundering you with a deluge of information... I just know there are two important things on a ship - the ammunition and the heads... :-)
Christopher

[tore]

Marko
Christopher got hold of the right pictures of the CPOs mess. It was poor seating on the port side and the table at the stb side was folded as on the picture except when eating of course. However as usual on the present U 995 somebody have played with the paintbrush on the surface of the table and the colour is wrong it`s far too vivid.I have shown a picture of the table from 1953 previously however it`s of course in black and white but it migth give you an idea so I post it once more.
Tore

[tore]

Marko -
Keep in mind that there are always visual references to the size of things if you look for them. Internal frames (D.Spant) are spaced for the most part at 600mm (60 cm) apart. The drawings, and photos of the forward head show it taking up a hair wider than a full span between frames. I would guess it was 700mm at the very widest. Its forward bulkhead is on a frame line, and its aft end extends slightly past the #62 D.Spt.

I hope I am not floundering you with a deluge of information... I just know there are two important things on a ship - the ammunition and the heads... :-)
Christopher

Yes Christopher you are rigth as to the last statement. But I`ll tell you if the cook had a bad day and 46 men in the confined space ate the food, the 46 men would trade the ammunition for an extra head I bet you.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

But I`ll tell you if the cook had a bad day and 46 men in the confined space ate the food, the 46 men would trade the ammunition for an extra head I bet you.
Tore

Tore - I bet you are right! Both have different purposes, but both are equally explosive! Handle with care!
LOL

[Marko]

erm, the bunk next to the captains quarters, were there two bunks on top of another or was it only one as this drawing indicates:

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
Port or starboard side? Port (Bbd) side - 2. The other side had the radio and sound rooms... cross ref with the img you posted at top.jpg

[TopherVIIC]

However as usual on the present U 995 somebody have played with the paintbrush on the surface of the table and the colour is wrong it`s far too vivid.

Tore - So you mean that the boat you served on - a Norwegian military vessel - was NOT painted every color in the rainbow on the inside? Do you mean to say that WWII German Navy People did not paint their boats in fantastic colors - even if it meant they had to think about the systems they were working on? Heresy! Blasphemy! How could it be so? If we see it with our eyes, it must be so! ;-) Ahem - now to our regularly scheduled broadcast...
Christopher - with a smile! :-)

[NZSnowman]

Tore - While we are on the subject of the Forward Head - was there a lamp in the socket in the upper left of the panel as shown in the photo? Did the famous "tooshie - light" as portrayed in Das Boat reside on your boat?

Wolfgang Petersen said that he added the famous "tooshie - light" for the movie

[Marko]

hah 

i love the movie, once my girlfriend watched it with me, and she commented: I don't like it much, every 5 minutes they eat, its boring

regarding the bunks, i ment the port side,

from the rear to front:
port                                starboard
captains quarters           radio & sonar room
? bunks                            ? bunks    (this section i am interested in, the side view says it is only one on each side, though i am not sure)
2 bunks                           2 bunks

marked on the top.jpg: (side view of the same sections indicates that there is only 1 bunk on each side, however in the numbered list it is indicated as (2)

[tore]

Hey guys! You are approaching my bunk in the wardroom now where I spent a lot of my time. I had the lower bunk on the stb side forward of the sonar (Horch) room.Forward end of the bunk had my wardroomcloset on the side,having two doors opening aft. On the aft end of the bunk was a storagecupboard having upper doors opening forwards. Underneath the doors was a small foldingtable (downwards), my writing (and dining) desk, and in the storage above were my books and drawings. I wish I had that cupboard rigth here now. On the sidewall of this cupboard towards the aisle was a blackboard where the 1. electrician noted the battery acid gravity twice a day keeping every officer updated. I never had bedguard on the bunk as now fitted on the  U 995, no need due to the cupboards. I had a dark green coloured curtain which I could draw at the bunkside. The top bunk was for No.1 and had similar arrangement. On portside as I said previously there was an upper and lower bunk for the junior officers (torpedo and navigation) the upper bunk was lowered almost all the time during the day and used as a seatback. Das Boot has many scenes at the diningtable showing the true situation. Further aft port came the COs quarter having the sonar and radiorooms on the stb. side conveniently next to him.
Tore

[Marko]

hm, will have to run eating scenes i guess

so actual scene in the movie is located in the middle of the fwd crew section (mid bunks), on port side?

note; i made some screen captures, and its a bit confusing, The radio above the cabinet indicates that they were in the captains quarters, however in the same scene,  then again deeper look into the hull reveals passage to the torpedo room (with a crew member eating, alone in front) which indicates that they were in the mid-section


 

[tore]

hm, will have to run eating scenes i guess

so actual scene in the movie is located in the middle of the fwd crew section (mid bunks), on port side?
 

When the CO and engineering officer were eating they were seated at the wardroom ( officers mess) lower port bunk with the upper bunk lowered as a seatback as far as I remember. I guess they had white tablecloth on the table so you probably wouldn`t see the tablecolour. However I think the moviepeople put a "little extra here" and there so don`t copy everything.
Tore

[Marko]

well, that was my best guess as well. It happens often that movie directors take the artist liberty

i guess i will go for the lowered upper bunk seatback option, just to spice things up a bit. Will report back with progress as soon as i make some.

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
Were those pics any help? I will look around and try and find some more if you need them

[tore]

Marko
This is supposed to be in the wardroom. The CO and EO are seated on the port lowerbunk.The wardroom diningtablelamp is correct, the journalist is sitting on the forward bulkheadseat and NO 1 is seated in the aisle a hopeless place,  you had to move every time  people were moving back and forth. Don`t worry about the loadspeaker it was not a radio, but a speaker connected up to the radioroom.
Tore

[Marko]

Christopher, indeed they were, the more the better actually.
Oh, the loudspeaker now that explains the eating scene. I love when they started to sing the Tipperary song 
though i am little worried how to make the dining lamp. maybe i could do the lamp only and simply hang it to the ceiling with a piece of wire, maybe integrated with a small  LED.
well, with some improvisation i came up with this. Probably i will redraw the section all over again anyway (as usual), so i am posting to get feedback from you guys

maybe ill add the shelf with the loudspeaker too,  i need more details on the bulkheads anyway, on both starboard and port side, so if there was anything else there let me know, or otherwise i would have to fill the walls with photos, clocks, and such random junk, just to get the impression of busy interior 

should i add the starboard bunks too - without the walls or would it compromise the section views? What do you think?

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
I would add the starboard side stuff too, in a sep. layer you can turn off and on. That way, if you choose to do another cut-away, or if anyone else wants to they have the information. Drawings like that are always useful. Besides, Tore would feel left out if you did not include his bunk. 
You may try adding the internal ribs, at least on the Bbd side, spaced at 600mm.
You can start from the bulkhead which is the farthest forward (D.Spt 63) and add them through the compartment. They are a great help in locating objects, and really are visible throughout the ship.
What software are you using?
Christopher


(added as an afterthought) 600mm in 1:72 scale is 8.333 real mm or .328083"

[tore]

Thanks Christopher I was really worried for a second !
Tore

[Marko]

I think you are on to something. I could do them, and we can still decide then how to assemble it. And yes, i did thought about Tore's bunk, so i guess i am kind a obligated to add it
I have in plan to add internal ribs, but after the ceiling and interior will be finished, since it is easier to cut the segments when needed to make the walls,  than to make the ceiling first complete and then struggle with the darned thing to get it properly to shape and fit 

I am using Rhinoceros 4 for the many options that allows as far as design goes, for the final conversion and touch-ups i use then SolidWorks, so the machine can read it into database and convert it into separate layers to guide the laser beam. I did not actually baked anything yet from these items, but when the test print will go out, i will do test run photos and post them.

[tore]

Marko
This is better, but I think you should change the table in the CPO mess, the tableplate was split in three and the two outer parts folded down when not eating, just the way it was done in the rest of the crews quarters except the wardroom.
Tore 

[Marko]

Well, i thought to display it as extended, or is even as extended not correctly drawn?

[tore]

I think you are on to something. I could do them, and we can still decide then how to assemble it. And yes, i did thought about Tore's bunk, so i guess i am kind a obligated to add it
I have in plan to add internal ribs, but after the ceiling and interior will be finished, since it is easier to cut the segments when needed to make the walls,  than to make the ceiling first complete and then struggle with the darned thing to get it properly to shape and fit 

I am using Rhinoceros 4 for the many options that allows as far as design goes, for the final conversion and touch-ups i use then SolidWorks, so the machine can read it into database and convert it into separate layers to guide the laser beam. I did not actually baked anything yet from these items, but when the test print will go out, i will do test run photos and post them.

Thanks as well Marko. If you consider to put an EO in my bunk remember I was always wearing a pink striped pyjamas, uniformcap oily slippers and greasy cottonwaste in my hands.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Thanks Christopher I was really worried for a second !
Tore

When a U.S.Marine says he has your back, you are safe in your pink pajamas!

[tore]

Thanks Christopher I was really worried for a second !
Tore

When a U.S.Marine says he has your back, you are safe in your pink pajamas!

Well Christopher we didn`t have those artists as they have on present days U 995 so we had to use our creativity to put colour to the interior.
Tore

[Marko]

Thanks as well Marko. If you consider to put an EO in my bunk remember I was always wearing a pink striped pyjamas, uniformcap oily slippers and greasy cottonwaste in my hands.
Tore

i have some extra crewmembers, plus i can still get some more from CMK, so i think i could manage to make one to fit your pyjama

 So: Yes Sir will do my best! 
 

[tore]

Well, i thought to display it as extended, or is even as extended not correctly drawn?

I think it`s still a bit too wide.
Tore

[tore]

Thanks as well Marko. If you consider to put an EO in my bunk remember I was always wearing a pink striped pyjamas, uniformcap oily slippers and greasy cottonwaste in my hands.
Tore

i have some extra crewmembers, plus i can still get some more from CMK, so i think i could manage to make one to fit your pyjama

 So: Yes Sir will do my best! 
 

Thanks again.
Tore

[Marko]

erm, wide in term of length (rear-front) or wide as (port-starboard)?

[tore]

erm, wide in term of length (rear-front) or wide as (port-starboard)?

Wide as port-starboard. Remember it was in the aisle passageway.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Marko
If the drawing is anywhere near accurate as far as proportions go, (Tore could answer that better than any of us no doubt) then:
By comparing the port-to-starboard width of the drawing you used for the floor plan http://shrani.si/f/D/Vz/2DWFXv9F/top.jpg the width is .395, and the width between the ribs of the drawing (known to be 600mm in reality) is .528" If you compare the two as a ratio, .528=600mm then .395=448.86mm - give or take a tiny bit. Call the port to starboard width of the open table say 450mm.  That was divided into three pieces, the center of which seems to be slightly wider than the hinged drop leafs.
450mm in 1:72 scale is 6.25 real mm or .246"
 
Will that help any?

[Marko]

Hmm, if i will draw it as 6,25 it will be too narrow, it wont fit into revell's measurements, i have trimmed it a bit, and currently is 9mm wide, see the top photo. i could shave off maybe 2 more additional mm (1mm from each side). Food storage is approx. 2-3mm lower than it should be, but i rather trimmed it down to assure visibility to the toilets. And Ladies and Gentlemen, Tore got his bunk back , well, at least is in progress 
 
 
 
 

[tore]

Marko
If the drawing is anywhere near accurate as far as proportions go, (Tore could answer that better than any of us no doubt) then:
By comparing the port-to-starboard width of the drawing you used for the floor plan http://shrani.si/f/D/Vz/2DWFXv9F/top.jpg the width is .395, and the width between the ribs of the drawing (known to be 600mm in reality) is .528" If you compare the two as a ratio, .528=600mm then .395=448.86mm - give or take a tiny bit. Call the port to starboard width of the open table say 450mm.  That was divided into three pieces, the center of which seems to be slightly wider than the hinged drop leafs.
450mm in 1:72 scale is 6.25 real mm or .246"
 
Will that help any?

Exellent Christopher! Use that Marko.
Tore

[tore]

Hmm, if i will draw it as 6,25 it will be too narrow, it wont fit into revell's measurements, i have trimmed it a bit, and currently is 9mm wide, see the top photo. i could shave off maybe 2 more additional mm (1mm from each side). Food storage is approx. 2-3mm lower than it should be, but i rather trimmed it down to assure visibility to the toilets. And Ladies and Gentlemen, Tore got his bunk back , well, at least is in progress 
 
 
 
 

I fell homesick allready, but give me a bit deeper cupboard (2mm)aft and wardrobe closets (1mm)forward and let us see how it looks.
Tore.
Tore

[Marko]

Okay, tables shaved off, still looks quite good. I was afraid that dimensions would fall off balance, will get to the cupboards and wardrobe next 

[Marko]

cupboard gained 2mm additional depth, wardrobe got extra 1mm.

[tore]

Marko this is it! And then a small foldable writingplate on the aft cupboard and a 6x7mm blackboard on the aft cupboardside towards the aisle.
Tore

[Marko]

will add it, but on what height?

[tore]

will add it, but on what height?

70-75 cm from floorplate.
Tore

[Marko]

Hello,

ive been off all day, so now time for some progress again

i made the small writing plate on forward cupboard and blackboard on the aft wardrobe, i made them noticeable for assessment purposes with rendering them green

[tore]

Marko
I have appearently not been very clear in my description.  The folding table (writing) is on the aft (rigth on your drawing) cupboard facing forward paralell with the bunk and could be folded down. The blackboard was on the same cupboard facing towards the aisle. The wardrobecloset (forward) had nothing but two doors opening aft , towards the foldingtable.
Tore
 

[Marko]

okay, made the corrections, should the folding writingplate be bigger and not necessary
square (could be rectangular)?

[tore]

Sorry, the writingtable is on the forward side of the cupboard where you have drawn something protruding out of the side. Make it as wide as the cupboard and protruding about 45cm out like a deskplate alongside the bunk. I sat actually on a stool next to the bunk writing. The blackboard was placed about where you have indicated a "folding writingplate"  about 2/3 of that size, rectangular and in the centerline of the cupboardside.  It was just an ordinary framed blackboard where the electrician wrote the acidvalues of the batteries by a piece of chalk.  Remove the small square.
Tore

[tore]

Marko
I`ll hit the sack now if it`s still unclear I`ll make a drawing tomorrow morning.
Tore

[Marko]

Oh, a writing TABLE, i confused it with a writing chart (manifest), my mistake

so, what i need to do: blackboard which was exactly as in first attempt, only a bit smaller and centered?

and a writingtable in the front of the rear cupboard (the proper table)

[tore]

Marko that`s it. Make the blackboard a fraction smaller.
Tore

[tore]

Yes, the blackboard was centered and if you really want the tiny details it was a small shelf for the chalksticks on the bottom of the blackboard, but then you have to put  5 buttons on my pink striped pyjamajacket as well.
Tore

[Marko]

well, i hope that the shelf is small enough, since if i make it thinner im afraid that the laser could not bake it properly, maybe it could, but then again its a 50-50 % chance Also i have shrinked a bit the blackboard.
its 0.6mm deep (4.3cm in 1:1), long as whole blackboard, and its 0,3 mm "high" (2,16 cm 1:1)

[tore]

This seems to be fine Marko.
Tore

[tore]

Eh, what happen to my "writingdesk"?
tore

[Marko]

still there, i just zoomed it in a lot closer  + i changed its layer status, since it got its seal of approval did other bunks had such foldable writingtable too? Oh, and i think i could manage those buttons, although i would need additional details about pyjama (base color, stripe color, button color, horizontal or vertical stripes, width of stripes, pocket, and so on) 

[tore]

The desk was a luxury just for the chief engineer. We leave further pyjamasdetails to the immagination I guess there were a few grease spots here and there as well.
Tore

[tore]

Marko
On your last drawing somehow the bunks didn`t touched the stb bulkhead ( actually the side of the freshwatertank) as they should. Is that a problem for your drawingprogramme?
Tore

[Marko]

Uhm, im not exactly sure what do you mean, can you please mark it on this photo - its the middle bunk section view from starboard side (as will be built in).

[tore]

I guess we are looking from stb side towards port and henc the bow is to the rigth. The curved line indicates the frame (pressurehull). Between the stb pressurehullside and the bunks is the freshwatertank filling up the space. However if the tank is put in it would block the view so may be you could just indicate the tank by hatching or shading  a rectangle on the floor and fwd and aft bulkhead avoiding the bunks are not ending in the middle on the bulhead. Se my bad sketch below. Sorry for the quality  it was made in a hurry on an envelope.
Tore 

[Marko]

Oh!
 
 i get it. 1st there are bunks, then the wall that is dividing fresh water tanks from the interior and theres the outer pressurehull. well, it would be difficult to indicate hatching, there is no point of drawing the water tank since it would close up the interior, however, when painting the pieces together, i guess i could paint that section  light blue with the top edges slightly wavy to point out the water tank, i could also make a slight depression into mid bulkheads (0.3mm) and then simply let the paint roll into it. I guess i will do it that way. Will post the picture as soon as i make it.
 
 In the mean time i made first attempt at the captains quarters, not finished yet, and i know that the rear wall should be a lot lower, though the dimensions would fall out dramatically, somehow i have to make a compromise here, feel free to suggest another solution.
 
 
 

[tore]

Ok Marko. I just remember I believe the lower bunk (my bunk) was closed up between the floor and the bunk I can`t remember if there were lockers or a wall like hiding pipes and wires as in some places  I`ll go for lockers. I revert to the COs quarter. There were a lot of cupboards, lamps and bookshelfs.
Tore

[Marko]

Oh, okay, will add the wall below bunk. Well, from the photos that i got on the internet, captain bunk is closed up solid below. No lockers, not a thing, just wooden paneling. Technically i could add lockers below too, but there is no way that those would be visible from any angle, well except if i add mirrors

i made some snapshots how i made the tanks, probably a bit artistic, but in my opinion could trick the eye. there are subliminal indentations in the walls (0.15mm) and 0.3 also in the bottom. I "etched" the bottom a bit more since it is thicker, and i guess it will be better ratio with sligthly higher indentation. There are a lot of helping lines still visible, just ignore them. Once in a while i sort them out and assign them a proper layer

Also the floor of freshwater tank could not be rendered blue, since it is integrated into the main floor, so the whole thing would turn out blue, but it will be painted blue on assembly

[tore]

Marko
Go to http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id id=5373&p=  click on the vordere Centrale (forward controlroom) and direct you to the forward pressure hatchdoor. Through that door you are looking straigth to the COs quarter excactly as it should be with wardrobeclosets, cupboard and bookshelfs. Books and a few lamps are missing you`ll have them on Das Boot.
Tore

[tore]

Marko
Freshwatertank. Let the tankwall go all the way up to the roof ( pressurewall ). Nice wavy freshwatersurface.
Tore

[Marko]

well, that is doable, however im not sure how to imitate the wavy freshwater surface then, i could paint blue all till the top and let the wavy etchings inside only will this height.

[SnakeDoc]

Hi
Try this panorama:
http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_05.php
Main page: http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/index.php


--
Regards
Maciek

[tore]

I think I would do that Marko. The wavy surface is what we call free surface and that was a nuisance on a sub and we avoided it as much as possible.
Both with regards to trim and the free surfaceeffect we had f.i. all the fueltanks watercompensated eg the tanks were always full as the used fuel was compensated with seawater. Wouldn`t work with the freshwatertanks though.
Tore

[tore]

Hi
Try this panorama:
http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_05.php
Main page: http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/index.php


--
Regards
Maciek

Exellent Maciek!. I haven`t seen that. When you use both I think you shall have a pretty good picture Marko. Macieks link give you an excellent view of the radioroom as well.
Tore

[Marko]

thanks for the panoramas Maciek, those are really nice and useful!

so should i leave the wavy surface indentation and paint the whole side up blue or ditch the wavy and go for straight through-up blue indentation without waves?

update on the Captains quarters (the cupboard handles are again a bit different than the real ones, but still have to over dimension those to get some depth effect)

[tore]

I guess so Marko.
Tore

[Marko]

So, if i understood correctly stays as is + paint till top of both bulkheads?

[tore]

Just looking at your COs quarter drawing I got a glimse of your wardroom table drawn with a single pillar leg. I believe it was the only table onboard having ordinary four legs as far as I remember.
Tore

[tore]

So, if i understood correctly stays as is + paint till top of both bulkheads?

Yes, and let the bulkhead go right to the top"roof"( pressurehull)
Tore

[Marko]

very well, will do so.

uhm, i just noticed on the set of plans that i have there is battery access hatch and magazine access hatch as well. However on the U-995 photos & panoramas i cannot locate such hatches (well except of the bigger one, and even that is subtle). Or were those beneath the floor wrap?

The captains writing desk has been edited to proper leg

[tore]

Marko, the center of the battery hatch was about 15 cm aft of frame 57 and situated in the centerline of the pressurehull next to my bunk. It was a square hatch with sides appr 10 cm less than the framedistance and was very visible as it was opened twice per day.
Tore

[Rokket]

wow, heaps of great drawing progress!

[Marko]

Thank you!

Uhm Tore,

the one hatch cover at your bunk has been done (green), however i am interested into these hatches - marked red on top view:

[tore]

Marko
I believe the aft hatch is access to the ammo storage. Rectangular sligthly shorter fwd-aft and placed appr 10 cm off to port from the subs centerline.
The other hatch I really can`t remember, but it could be a second hatch to the batterycompartment, I`ll check and se if I can fugure out.
Tore.
 

[SnakeDoc]

Hi
I believe, that second, forward hatch is to the room previously designed for the S-Ger

[tore]

Maciek you are rigth, but I wonder if in addition to the extra storage you still had the echolot in same compartment. I was never down there.
Tore

[Marko]

Hello,

so, the sonar room is here, also the floor hatches, i made the sonar equipment desk opened, so its visible through, and i should also add some details to the wall later on:

[tore]

Marko you are on the rigth track. The COs quarter could be sealed of by a curtain from floor to top following the red line on the drawing below and a chair as indicated on the drawing. The EO and No1 had a small curtain sealing off the bunks as indicated with red line.
Tore

[tore]

The colour of the curtain dark green.
Tore

[Marko]

i think it would be wise to add curtains from the real fabric soaked with water diluted white glue.

i guess its time to make the radio room

[tore]

I come to think about it I guess the CPO bunks have a green curtain as well.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore

Maciek you are rigth, but I wonder if in addition to the extra storage you still had the echolot in same compartment.

Well, I believe, that echolot (depth sounding) equipment still were located there. The extra storage place was freed by the Ausfahrger

[tore]

We didn`t have the S-geraet so that goes along with your info.
Tore

[Marko]

hello guys,

im a bit late since i have to put some energy into regular daily around the house jobs 

well, technically half of the radio room is done, here is a lot less electricity involved than in the sonar room. i still have to make the rear wall of it. If i missed anything obvious please feel free to inform me. the desk un the U-995 are basically empty, here and there there is a map on it, what did usually the radio guy had on desk? Would the enigma machine be in his quarters or did Captain had that in his locker? Oh and by the way, are such tripod-chairs correct or did they have back then other chairs like these are at the moment at Laboe?

[TopherVIIC]

This is starting to look like a U-Boat Marko! Keep up the diligence!
Christopher

[tore]

You are getting to something Marko. I`m aware of technical problem in making the controlroom pressure bulkhead concave however I suggest you put in a "tubeseating" for the pressurehatchdoor as marked red on my posted drawing below. It was quite significant to visitors.
Tore

[tore]

COs quarter.
It looks like you have made an extra closet aft of the COs bunk. This was not COs area, but a small steelcompartment containing the automatic batteryswitch. The doors were white and made of steel I think you may see how it looked like on the panoramalink Maciek gave you above.
Tore

[tore]

Radioroom.
I cannot comment too much on that, the stools are OK. There were a few books some rather thick. The enigma was of course not there in my time, may be Das Boot can give you an indication.  The radio room was also an entertainment center by having a LPplayer and quite a few LPs. On the surface  we got  radiotranmission on the compartmentspeaker, not so while submerged and LP records was the only music available. Beeing submerged for weeks could be very boring and some kind of entertainment helped. Beeing submerged we transmitted very long waves codedsignals to a special radiostation ashore. We did that every 12 hours.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Tore


Could you describe me, how this food store looked like inside (marked with blue color)?


Also, do you remember, how the diving planes driving shaft was led and attached? I suppose, it was led near the frames, but was it attached to the frames or it has mounting points only in the points, where it passed through walls, bulkheads? (I marked the supposed layout of the shaft with red line, and mounting points with green dots).


Also, was it led through the fresh water tank? On the photo of the aft WC the shaft for the aft planes is led through the stuffing box and then through the internal oil bunker 1a, so I suppose, in this case could be similar?


The shaft is not visible in the listening and radio room, so I suppose, it has to be covered by desks.


And finally, in the type VIIC manual (http://uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm) is written:

To check the amount of suction, pressure indicating devices connected at the blank end of each extractor pipe, which are installed over the battery room deck.  They show the pressure difference between the suction pipes and battery room.

Do you remember, where these gauges were located?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[tore]

Radioroom
I found a photo of the U 124s  radioroom showing the german radioman in action. You can see the books and even the Enigma I guess this would give you an impression how it was in use.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Also, do you remember, how the diving planes driving shaft was led and attached? I suppose, it was led near the frames, but was it attached to the frames or it has mounting points only in the points, where it passed through walls, bulkheads? (I marked the supposed layout of the shaft with red line, and mounting points with green dots).

Hi Maciek

From what I seen with the other control arms that run along the frames in the Type VIIC

[Marko]

Ok, from the advices given, i have added the tubeseating for the hatch, curved bulkhead would actually be doable, however CMK designed their controlroom bulkheads straight, and simply would not add up, so im leaving that as is, for esthetics

also the batteryswitch compartment as been modified (door) - please check it if it is ok, ill probably add the small indentation for the lightning mark, i also made the other wall for the radio room, per your advice i also made the LP player, as you probably noticed, tonearm is missing, but the printing could not make it thin enough so ill be making that from very thin wire. enigma machine is very simplified, however all keys from keyboard are there now the desk actually looks more busy, ill just add a chart with morse code or map, or something to fill up the space. Unfortunately the box with LP records will have to be scratched, since the print out would be more or less like a box..

[tore]

Maciek
I cannot remember exactly where it was fixed and how, but Simons suggestion seems to be plausible. I believe it was led through the freshwatertank and I am pretty sure the stuffingbox was similar as for the FO tank. As to the differentialgauges I have to revert to that question.
Tore

[tore]

Marko
You are getting ahead. The door for the batteryswitch compartment is OK when it get the indention. From the top of that compartment was a black "rail" 5-6 cm high following the red line I showed previously which was carrying the curtain. The pressurehatch door to the controlroom has got a button in the center which was`t there. Make a lever handle about 15-20 cm long placed on the rigth side looking towards aft instead. Recordplayer was probably not very modern and not for LPs but 78 records remember the years were 40-45.
Tore 

[tore]

Maciek.
I think I never looked into the foodstorage sorry I`haven`t got a clue.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Gentlemen,
Since this question is also one I am following, I did some looking around.
I found this.
I think that it shows that the control links to both the FWD and AFT Dive Planes for manual control are similar, based on the known link running through the aft head.
The mechanism for each dive station is mirrored, and it looks like similar links are running off towards each end of the boat, on the starboard side.
One arrow is a little close to a valve - I am not pointing to the valve, but to the link behind it.






I do have a possible path for the FWD link, but it is supposition.
Based on the deck height differences between the FWD Torp room, Officers Quarters, and Zentralle, and the supposition that glands and universal joints if run through the fresh water tank would/could contaminate the water with grease - could it be possible that the fwd link might have been run below the Officer's Compartment Decking, through the battery room, magazine, and up into the steering station from there?
That path would avoid the trim and torpedo compensating tank 3, and it would avoid having to go through the fresh water tanks, sound, and radio rooms, as well as would avoid Tore's bunk. :-) It would also have most of the linkage accessible for maintenance.
Just thoughts.
I still need to fiqure out how it links to the FWD dive plane control below the torpedo tubes. You can see that area from my cut-away part of the model.
Christopher

[Marko]

Uhm the "button" on the hatch is ment to be a holder for the wheel that locks and seals off the passage, basically its just a mounting point. Or was that locking mechanism differently made?

[tore]

Christopher.
I think you are on the rigth track, I had the same doubt as to the FWT. The transfer through the pressure CR bulkhead would have to be horizontal I should assumed. I shall be occupied with other activities the next couple of days and shall revert hopefully when (if) the details migth pop up in a very old mans mind.
Tore   

[tore]

Marko.
The pressurehatch door was not like an ordinary hatch, more like a door. The lever on the rigth side was more like a doorhandle and to keep the hatchdoor in open position it was a catch on the other side which you could lock to the bulkhead. The actual pressureshutting of the hatch was done by the slotted rim  and the ring operated by a fairly big handlerod going through the pressurebulkhead on the port side. You can easely see that on one of the panorama pictures.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Christopher.
I think you are on the rigth track, I had the same doubt as to the FWT. The transfer through the pressure CR bulkhead would have to be horizontal I should assumed. I shall be occupied with other activities the next couple of days and shall revert hopefully when (if) the details migth pop up in a very old mans mind.
Tore   

Tore, you are correct. Both control arms runs parallel with the deck. The control arms run parallel along the centre arc of the pressure hull and about 400 mm out from the inner pressure hull wall.
 

[tore]

Simon I guess we have found the answer then.
Tore

[SnakeDoc]

Hi

Both control arms runs parallel with the deck. The control arms run parallel along the centre arc of the pressure hull and about 400 mm out from the inner pressure hull wall.

Simon, could you make sketch drawing? Especially place, when the shaft goes through the control room forward pressurized bulkhead?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Christopher

I still need to fiqure out how it links to the FWD dive plane control below the torpedo tubes. You can see that area from my cut-away part of the model.

Maybe this photo of U190 aft torpedo room will help. I believe, that aft diving planes driving gear on the type IX boats was analogous as forward on type VII.


--
Regards
Maciek

[Marko]

hatch updated, is it ok, or should i modify it a bit more? Also i made the curtain rail.

[TopherVIIC]

Maybe this photo of U190 aft torpedo room will help. I believe, that aft diving planes driving gear on the type IX boats was analogous as forward on type VII.

Thanks Maciek - that should do for what I need. I suspected it was something like that.
Cheers!
Christopher

[NZSnowman]

Hi

Both control arms runs parallel with the deck. The control arms run parallel along the centre arc of the pressure hull and about 400 mm out from the inner pressure hull wall.

Simon, could you make sketch drawing? Especially place, when the shaft goes through the control room forward pressurized bulkhead?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Top view Control Room


Fig. 1. FWD Dive Planes control arm. Between Forward main bulkhead and Hydroplane Station.



Fig. 2. AFT Dive Planes control arm (Close-up). Between Aft main bulkhead and Hydroplane Station.



Fig. 3. AFT Dive Planes control arm (Full). Between aft main bulkhead and Hydroplane Station.



Fig. 4. AFT & FWD Dive Planes control arms (Full). Control room.

[tore]

Marko
That`s more like it. I`m not sure about the proporsions though. The hatchdoor was always open locked by the catch leftside looking towards aft, it seems that your drawing don`t have space for that (touching the bulkhead of the radioroom).  The curtain rail seems to be on the larger side.
Tore

[tore]

Maciek
 Differential gauges of batteryventilation.
I`m a bit bewildered because I cannot remember these gauges beeing outside the batterycompartment. I had the idea they should be in the compartment, in order to have a correct reading. I cannot remember ever to have seen the gauges in the accommodation area above batterycompartment 1 or 2.
Tore 

[SnakeDoc]

Hi


Thank you Simon for the drawing.


It seems, that the shaft for the forward diving planes goes through the control room curved bulkhead at the height of the hatche's center, and then goes just under the desk in the radio room.
I like the Christopher's idea, where the shaft goes under the officer's room deck plates, but it requires two angle gears (I don't think, that the shaft would go through the deck plates under the angle other than right angle), somewhere in the radio or listening room, to lower the shaft under the fresh water tank...
There is also question, if the compressed air flasks in the forward torpedo room would not be an obstacle, if the shaft would be so low...



--
Regards
Maciek

[TopherVIIC]

Maciek,
I could go with that since it does seem to exit centrally at essentially right angles, but it may or may not divert at 90 degree angles once through the control room bulkhead. The other control rod links for the buoyancy tanks vary in angle, so I could picture either a 90-90 degree gearbox or universal links at various angles... But I still support the idea of travel under officer decks. Using my physical model, as accurate or not-accurate as it may be, shows the rods as you or I drew them clearing the hp air flasks fwd.

[tore]

I would put up a  90- 90 degree angle in the radioroom as the alternative, keeping the horizontal position of the rod just below the upper batterycompartmentdeck and the same level all the way to the fwd torpedoroom. I guess you would end up at the same level as the 90 degree anglebox in the fwd torpedoroom and behind the upper part of the airbottle where you have space for the rod.
Tore

[tore]

Marko.
I have to correct myshelf. I guess you could accommodate a catch for the pressuredoor on the radioroombulkhead, I suggest you show the door open. The curtainrail would be OK.
Tore

[Marko]

Uh, regarding the hatches, doors etc. i have to check on the final print if the holes would add up, or at least if minor corrections will be needed, then i will do them opened, if the deviation will be too high, then they will remain closed, though i have fingers crossed

the curtain itself will be from fabric, since the print would look too unrealistic, the piece of cloth will do its best i guess. Small progress on the bulkhead

[NZSnowman]

Sorry guys, I am going to be different here 

Here what I think this the path of the FWD Dive Planes control arm.

We know that the control arm exit the Hydroplane Station and runs forward to the forward main bulkhead of the control room near the height of the hatche's centre. Yesterday when I was drawing the shaft I thought it had a 2-4

[tore]

Simon
I was too quick in making my remark and had a shortcircuit sorry. Having the rod all the way in the fueltank wouldn`t be the thing. Your new suggestion migth very well be posssible. I would think the pressure-watertight stuffing box in CR pressurebulkhead would have a horizontal passage though.On the panorama photo of the U 995 it looks indeed as it has an angle on the picture but it could be the eye is fooled by the phototecnique. The tube in the FW tank is very probable, in the fwd torpedoroom of the U 995 I am afraid they have disturbed the angle and migth even have cut off the rod making the visitordoor and stair.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Tore, it good that you think that the pressure-watertight stuffing box in CR pressure bulkhead would have a horizontal, as I also think it would be horizontal
 
Also it nice to hear you talk about the disturbed around the visitor door, because if I used my initial drop of approximately 4

[tore]

Simon
It`s  a different 90 degrees bend from that of U 995. Do you know the buildingyear and U-number of this U boat? If your theory as to the angle of the rod comes into serious conflict with a horizontal pressure CR stuffingbox I would skip the horizontal stuffingboxtheory because it could of course be made in an angle although the most common execution would be horizontal.
Tore

[NZSnowman]

Simon
It`s  a different 90 degrees bend from that of U 995. Do you know the buildingyear and U-number of this U boat? If your theory as to the angle of the rod comes into serious conflict with a horizontal pressure CR stuffingbox I would skip the horizontal stuffingboxtheory because it could of course be made in an angle although the most common execution would be horizontal.
Tore

The picture is of U-164 a Type IXC. You below can see the last section on the control arm in U-190 a Type IXC40 from Maciek article (Photo 16. Forward torpedo room on U-190 [4].)

[Marko]

bit of update: i started on the inner ring ribs, hard to create and cut the excess away, but i think i am getting there slowly:

[Marko]

so, the ceiling is more or less complete, now regarding the battery compartment:
was is like this, or were the batteries arranged in the "stairways" form? - with uneven tops? Also, what should i put into the armament storage compartment (behind batteries)?

[tore]

Marko
The batteries were fitted stepped both alongships and atwarthships as you can see on the posted drawings. Ammunition storage, the former S geratroom and the surrounding fueltanks arrangement can be seen on the GE plan.
Tore

[Marko]

oh, i thought they were in stepped form, would be more esthetic. Will redraw the whole thing after i get home in the afternoon.

[tore]

Changing the batteries individual size would imply capacity difference and even other electrical differences which you don`t want when the cells are grouped. I`m afraid on the subs technical necesseties have a priority before esthetics Marko. Don`t forget the tanks.
Tore

[Marko]

its been a long time since last post, however i made quite a bit of progress; if this gets approved i am moving on to the storage area right behind the battery compartment. I know that there should also been washing water tanks, however i have no idea how did those look like, since in the schematics that i have its marked as square box with an X.

[tore]

Marko
You are getting along. A few remarks. It seems you have mixed the atwartships strengtheningplates of the boxkeel with the pressure hull frames, have a looked at the picture below. The strengtheningplates shouldn`t be more than an inch thick and of course placed inside the keel. The bulkhead between the CPO mess and fwd torpedoroom was not a pressurebulkhead as the controlroombulkhead, but just a thin watertigth bulkhead. The tanks were square as you see on the photo below.
Tore

[tore]

Marko
Boxkeel.
May be it`s better explained by the picture posted below. Red is the keel outside the pressurehull, blue are the frames inside the pressurehull.
Tore 

[Marko]

so, essentially if i got it right, i should make these pressure hull supports (spacers between keel and PH) thinner? - at the moment those are 1,5 mm thick (marked red)

[tore]

Refering to your drawing where I have made colour indications (posted below).The pressurehull starts to taper appr. from frame 51, the frames have all identical higths and are circular, following the internal pressurehulls surface (blue), hence the batterycompartmentfloor is following the tapering of pressurehull. Because the boxkeels heel is horizontal, the box keels internal atwortships strengthplates (green) hights are inceasing following the externally the pressurehulltapering. The plates are welded to the outside of the pressurehull exactly where the frames are located inside( green).
Tore

[tore]

May be the below drawing gives a better understandig. The red line indicates the outlines of the pressure proof compartments.The red arrow shows the flat heel of the boxkeel on which the sub is resting sitting on the seabed. The internal crossstrengthening keelplates in the boxkeel are placed exactly adjacent to the internal hullframes in the flat area for extra strength whereas further fwd you`ll see the keelplates are fewer and not adjacent to the frames.
Tore

[Marko]

oh, i get it.

the only problem is, that revell designed the kit slightly differently, so did the CMK. This is what i mean:
the cut out geometry:


cmk sections design (not my build):


i have to make a compromise here, the original design just wont do it, since i have to align the rest of the parts along. Unfortunately every designer (Revell, CMK) did the job their way, and this leaves tiny gap for me to maneuver around. I think i wont be able to to it the proper way, unless if someone has a good idea how to manage it?

[tore]

Marko
I think it`s OK. Don`t get confused with the torpedocompensatingtank 2&3 with the domed bulkhead marked red and ending fwd at frame 69.
You can chose to close the boxkeel a shown on picture below.
Tore

[Marko]

oh, well i measured the CMK pieces, and currently the dimensions line up perfectly, however if i would make the spacers all equal and lift the keel upwards, the part would stand out too far away. Also CMK designed the torpedo room too aft, which brings the keel out of proper alignment. Im sorry for that, but i think we have to call it as is. The water tank reached too far out so i rather trimmed it to fit the below deck compartment, i also made the same water level mark as the upper water tank next to your bunk

[tore]

Somehow the drawing of the watertigth  bulkhead between the CPO mess and fwd torpedoroom is going into the boxkeel as are part of the pressurehullframes as indicated on the posted drawings. The horisontal centerlines of your frames indicates the pressurehulline. See the posted picture.
Tore

[Marko]

hmm, yes, i guess i know what you are talking about, those "supports" are going into the pressure hull, while they should remain outside, i think i should lower the resting plate of the batteries till the pressure hull outer limits, and cut the supports off.

[tore]

hmm, yes, i guess i know what you are talking about, those "supports" are going into the pressure hull, while they should remain outside, i think i should lower the resting plate of the batteries till the pressure hull outer limits, and cut the supports off.

Yes, make the battericompartmentfloor follow the yellow lines on the top of the frames as on the posted drawing below.
Tore

[Marko]

erm, batteries were inside the pressurehull right? they had extra box around them and that's it right?

I extended the pressurehull's edge till the cut-away position and shortened the supports. I know that they are still not the same length, but i think that would not be justified since the rest of the compartments have been made without them, or totally different as the original plans. Oh, CMK added holes between those support ribs of thepressure hull, should i make the same or was it solid between?

[Marko]

latest results:
still needs some assembling guides and approval or if there are needed any changes

[tore]

Marko
I am posting two crossection drawings at frame 51 and 64 may be they explain better than words.
Tore

[tore]

erm, batteries were inside the pressurehull right? they had extra box around them and that's it right?

I extended the pressurehull's edge till the cut-away position and shortened the supports. I know that they are still not the same length, but i think that would not be justified since the rest of the compartments have been made without them, or totally different as the original plans. Oh, CMK added holes between those support ribs of thepressure hull, should i make the same or was it solid between?

The batteriycompartments were indeed inside the pressurehull having bulkheads all around. I am not sure I`m understanding you on the "supportribs" question. But if you mean the strengthening ribs inside the saddletanks (outside the pressurehull) they were of different execution depending on which tank, You`ll find excellent crossectiondrawings on the net (Uboat Archives).
Tore

[Marko]

well i know that i should lift the boxkeel quite a bit higher, but if i do so, CMK's parts will fall out of alignment. In my opinion that would not look esthetic. since the boxkeel in crew compartment would be approx. 5 mm higher than the boxkeel in the forward torpedo room designed by the CMK. This issue could be solved only if CMK would design the torpedo room about 2 cm forward to the bow, then the boxkeel could follow the diagrams that you provided. So unfortunately i cannot fix this.  the holes that i ment (marked with red circles)...


maybe this will help explain the alignment issues (these parts essentialy do not allow me to make higher boxkeel + those equal length supports, well technically i could do it, but i think i would loose the smoothness of parts):

[TopherVIIC]

Marko -
You ARE aware that the CMK forward compartment has very little to do with historical accuracy compared to known drawings, yes? For instance, the part marked "C" has holes amidships. In reality, that was a solid bulkhead that separated the torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3 (port and starboard). Holes there would make the tanks one big tank, not two. Forward of that, part "C" has a solid bulkhead, where there should be none - That was the trimzelle. There are numerous other"inventions" in that CMK kit. Just letting you know so that you are aware THEY did not look at the drawings very thoughtfully... :-)
Christopher

[tore]

Marko
The area you have indicated red circles is the centerplate inside the box keel, this plate was solid except for 4 slots presumably made for liftingslings  used during the buildingperiode. You may consider the closed boxkeel to go up to frame 77 with solid centerplate,further fwd you are in the freefloodarea and the centerplate have openings. The isometric drawings showing only a centerplate with holes from the bulkhead between CPO mess and fwd torpedoroom does`t make sense to me as in this area you have two torpedocompensating tanks (no2 and 3) up to frame 69 and then fwd trimtank almost up to frame 74.
Tore

[Marko]

Oh, so ill skip those holes then, either ways, there is very little room to maneuver around there.
CMK probably made those holes to make the cut outs more attractive, since obviously making compensating tanks would prove difficult (so as did the freshwater tanks in my section)

I just had a conversation with our rapid prototyping expert, he fast reviewed some of parts and said that most of it would be no issue, here and there result cannot be guaranteed - especially those reliefs in the freshwater tanks, however we will try to print out all of the parts. If the printouts will prove to be at least good, i will move on to the rear torpedo section.

Also IF the prints wont be faulty, i might consider designing the complete 1/72 type II interior, for the SN kit, or the 1/72 Type XXIII.

[TopherVIIC]

I hope the prints come out well sir! Good luck! I look forward to seeing the results of your hard work!
Christopher

[TopherVIIC]

As a modeler I am quite sure that we LIKE to paint, model and represent details. I think that is one of the reasons why (among many reasons) you have gotten so much interest in your study. You would potentially be filling a gap in the modeling world. I like that!
With any model, there comes a point where the reality of a real full sized object cannot fully be replicated under current manufacturing techniques in miniature. With each day, that point becomes smaller and smaller.
One day we will be able to conceptualize and finalize our drawings into quite refined miniature 3d "real" models.
I suppose it will be to the artists at that point to make sure we keep including details that are as period as possible, for the modelers to build, paint, and represent! :-)
Cheers!

[tore]

Christopher.
Wise words, I thought it was a walkover to make my model of the norwegian version of U 995. The more I went into details the more I realised how much I had forgotten in those 59 years since I spent my time onboard. However the details of the model makes it both challenging and interesting
but of course for most people a sub is just a sub. For me ex U 995 was particular sub and played a very important role in my life and I am amazed and happy to see so many  people are interested and spending days and weeks to figure out details. Looking forward to see the endresults of all your projects.
Tore

[TopherVIIC]

Tore
You do not know how happy you being here has made not only me - but all those you have chosen to interact with!
I cannot speak for everyone, nor would i wish too... but personally I wish every journey you make brings you into safe harbors. I hope there is little chop in the seas, and most of all, may you find good whiskey and ale to toast with!
Thank you Sir.
Christopher

[Marko]

I have to agree with Christopher here, you absolutely contribute to more accurate model, i would probably make the whole compartment wrong if you would not spoken . Unforturnately i have some limitations here, but i hope those wont affect the end result much.

well i have made individual pieces out of the assembly, and counted 38 parts, out of many will be even multiplied (example bunks,..) batteries are made as one piece per row, otherwise i would have around 40+ pieces solely of batteries

Tomorrow i will have to check the models for accuracy if there are no faulty joints, and if there will be any will have to heal them. Next will be then making layers (slices) of pieces, and then printing at last. Well first we will do an easy, low-profile part just to check the process, i guess we will make a wardrobe and toilet doors to check up the minimal printable thickness with loosing as few details as possible.

I really really hope that this will work.

[Rokket]

Don't know if this helps or hinders - but don't forget, there are always two adjustments that have to be made in modeling: "scale adjustment" (absolute percentage shrinkage doesn't take in to account an odd look to the final result -sometimes proportions ahve to be cheated to meet the real world!), and "kit adjustment" - the kit you are working on is never perfect, and/or you have to fit into it and strangely it is not an exact miniature of real life.

It's often better to go for a "finished effect" - so what of you had to adjust this and that, as long as the final result feels like the real thing! You're doing great, ad we're all very lucky to have Tore with first hand knowledge!

[Marko]

indeed,

well for now project ran on a light obstacle, but as soon as we will be able to print the very first part i will show the results for sure.