Author Topic: VIIC "On the Ways"  (Read 98589 times)

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Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #200 on: 25 Apr , 2012, 11:15 »
SG
It could very well be, although the jackets doesn`t look like any german U-boatjacket. Most of the german Uboatcrew were very cooperative in fact when the large portion of the Uboat surrendered in Norway, the allied forces didn`t have any organisation to handle all the subs which crowded Narvik harbour. Then the germans took everything in their own hands and sailed the impressive submarinefleet south to Trondheim to surrender. Half way they were observed and created almost a panic and two norwegian destroyers were rushed up north to check. Back to the famous picture, if I remember correctly in early May admiral D

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #201 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:00 »
ok finally some pics.
Keep in mind I still have a long way to go, but Tores photos of the torpedo room deck were helpful. In fact, thanks for everyone chipping in!



My Crewmembers are just rough painted in for now - they will be detailed as I work more stuff in. You can see that the compartment is starting to look quite small...



Here you can see the wooden torpedo proxies I am using belowdecks till I get some proper G7-E's

I put hinges on the deck plates and wire pull handles, and you can see the striped bedding I made. I was quite happy with the bedding.

In the pic of the deck, it looks oilier than I intended, so I will probably get rid of some of the darker oil stains, but I like the weathering of the steel edge plates.
I still have to make two folded up bunks with spring wire bottoms, but they will be coming.

Again here is some bedding detail, with crates and containers. You can see I did sheets, as well as a DKM wool blanket.



I like to work with oils, which take a while to dry, and I also paint miniatures somewhat impressionistically. So you may bet that the painting is far from finished.
The photos do not do it justice, but I am happy with how this is coming out. Here they seem more vivid - the paints blend better with the human eye. I will also be putting in filters and pastels, but I will wait for that till the majority of construction is done. When you look up into the cut-away sections, you get the impression of a crowded but functional working space, which is my goal.
Cheers mates.
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #202 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:31 »
Christopher.
As usual amazing. the bunkclothing is exactly as it was. You got even the fittings on the bulkhead towards CPO mess correct  omitting the new stuff which was installed in the 60ties. Well done!
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #203 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:39 »
Christopher
A small remark as to my recent post. The bunkguards should may be a little more shiny, crisp brushed aluminumcolour, see my picture below
Tore.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #204 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:41 »
Tore -
Thank you! I need to get some brighter aluminum paint. I used Testors silver lacquer on it, and it looks quite dull, so I need to brighten it up. It is funny the stuff you are proud of on a build - A little detail I put in - I am really fond of the hatch coaming! As I get to the point where I have to start permanently fitting the bulkheads in place, and the deck, I will add known plumbing and air ducts and of course the lights we talked about earlier. My crew will get painted better - more detail - less shiny... :-)
« Last Edit: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:44 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #205 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:48 »
Tore - Do you remember if the lower bunks had a bunk fence on them? Drawings show they did, but that may be a drawing convention.
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #206 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 10:54 »
Yes Chrstopher-
We used the same leather uniforms, surplus from german stock, they were not so shiny blueish more grey. We didn`t use them so much inside the sub where the dresscode was somewhat irregular wild while at sea.
Tore

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #207 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 11:48 »
Christopher,
Congrats for the results obtained so far. Really an impressive work. Am looking forward to seeing the final outcome when the painting process is completed!
Bravissimo!
SG
 

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #208 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 12:01 »
Christopher
Tore - Do you remember if the lower bunks had a bunk fence on them? Drawings show they did, but that may be a drawing convention.
Christopher
I don`t think  we used them because the lower bunks were used as a seating and normally the tables were mounted.
Tore
« Last Edit: 26 Apr , 2012, 12:16 by tore »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #209 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 12:13 »
Hi Christopher.

Looking fantastic!!! :) :) :)

It like looking at my drawing in 3D. I know the boat some much in 2D, but it so wonderful now to see it in 3D.

 

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #210 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 12:52 »
Christopher
I got a detail picture (bad) of this area where you hopefully can see how it normally looked like. The tables were easy to remove but as rule fitted as shown.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #211 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 14:47 »
Hi Christopher


Really, really awesome work!


I think, you should remove two elements from the bulkhead: at port side AGOS box (discussed here:
http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=921.msg10979#msg10979) and at stb side - electric heater.



--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #212 on: 26 Apr , 2012, 23:22 »
You are rigth Markos, I overlooked these elements.
tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #213 on: 27 Apr , 2012, 05:40 »
I figured the AGOS box would have to go. I put that in before the AGOS discussion happened - but I did not know the electric heater was post-period for a german VIIC/41. Damn...and I even put in a photoetched grill in it... Oh well, I will remove them! :-) Thanks
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #214 on: 01 May , 2012, 19:10 »
Gentlemen -
I have two sets of questions.


1) I have questions about the emergency life raft containers fitted in the decks of late period boats. Were they all the same vertical size? Were they a standard unit, or were they different sizes? Also, did they sit dead vertical or did they fit the angle of the exterior deck? I am guessing the diameter of the container where it pierces the deck is about 700mm. Does that sound right? Lastly, about the containers - does anyone know if they were just fitted to the deck or was there other supporting framework belowdeck?


2) The bollard mounts - were they a closed box with the two extendible bollards set in them, or were they open frames that held the bollards?
I ask because with my cut-away you will be seeing parts people do not normally see. Thanks.

Christopher.
« Last Edit: 01 May , 2012, 19:17 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #215 on: 01 May , 2012, 23:58 »
Raftcontainers
The raft container were  very easy fit ( I`ll probably find some details which i`ll mail later). Allthough most of the latest VIICs had four containers there were different numbers.  1945 U 995 had no container (see picture below), we put in two, and our other VIICs had different numbers. I don`t know about the details of the rafts but are mailing a picture of the type we had. We used it primarely for putting commandoes ashore.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 May , 2012, 10:00 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #216 on: 02 May , 2012, 10:20 »
Christopher
I`m sorry for some mistakes in the last post, I realized there were two pictures of the same kind the very moment I mailed it, but I`m rigth now at my farm very remote in the deep forrests of Norway had have very limited access to internet. The connection was shut the minute after I mailed it. Here is correction and more pictures. First the photo of the raft we used. Then the photo of the photo of KNM Kya having 3 containers and KNM Kinn having 4 containers. As you know most of the VIICs have four containers, they were exellent storage for potatoes.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #217 on: 02 May , 2012, 10:34 »
Tore-
Excellent information Sir! Thank you. I am putting three containers into my boat - perhaps I will build one cut-away and loaded with potatoes!
Were the rafts you used Norwegian or were they German Surplus? Also, were they inflated from cartridge, or did you hook up a low pressure airline to them once they were deployed out of their containers?
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #218 on: 02 May , 2012, 10:39 »
Christopher
The raft containers were 90 degrees to the wooden deck and you migth be able to figure out how on the bad photo below. They were all of the same size.
Your 700 mm diameter above deck seems reasonable to me.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 May , 2012, 13:09 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #219 on: 02 May , 2012, 10:50 »
I really don`t know, but would presume they were German surplus. I don`t think we had cartridges, I seem to remember I pumped it up from a hose ( when I was on a fishingtrip in the fjords.) Otherwise, as I said they were officially for use of our Navy Seals. Liferafts nobody ever mentioned.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #220 on: 02 May , 2012, 11:31 »
I have seen the Kaura containers norwegian version restauration Kiel..jpg pic. I wish I had a copy of it in higher resolution - that one looks like it could be full of details I could use in my build. If anyone has pics of type VIIC's or VIIC41's that have the decks ripped of, I would be greatly obliged... :-) Especially looking for details of the capstan and anchor winch mechanisms below the working casing...
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #221 on: 02 May , 2012, 13:08 »
I got hold of another photocopy of the German mounting of 4 containers instead of two on U 995 in Kiel. I`m not sure the resolution is any better but I`ll go for 2nd. try.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 May , 2012, 13:12 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #222 on: 03 May , 2012, 10:25 »
I`m mailing a  picture showing the containers. As far as I can establish the containers were mounted to a steelplate supported by girders rigth underneath the wooden deck, they were not in contact with the pressurehull. A british report on interogation of survivors from U 413, U 1209, U 877 and U 1199, conclude end 1944:
"VIIC U boats are now fitted with 4 pressuretigth containers on deck, three forward and one aft, each containing a 13 ft. dinghy. These containers project about 6 in. above the deck". I believe there were a great variation of the numbers  from 2 to 4. I guess they were hanging with the bottom about 100-150 mm above the pressurehull
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #223 on: 03 May , 2012, 11:07 »
Tore
Good Pic! Thank you! I am working on this section a bit, trying to get the casing built. I have found it useful to move to different sections of the model so my brain does not grow numb looking at the same parts.
I am going to try my hand at casting to make the containers. I will make sculpey clay masters for the closed bins, and am still debating making one cut-away bin, (so I may add the fourth container after all).
Then I will do RTR rubber molds, and finally resin castings. I am looking forward to this new challenge.


When I do U-35, I will not need these containers, but learning to do casting will be useful. Like I said, this is my training boat!


(Side note - I removed the electric heater and the AGOS Box, and added a bit more plumbing and electrical work on the bulkhead @ D.Spt 63., and am working on the deck extensions and angular plates near the torpedorohr inside caps)
Thanks again!
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #224 on: 03 May , 2012, 12:05 »
Christopher
This is the only drawing I have of the pressurecontainer. It looks to me that the uppr part of the cylinder has a sligthly larger diameter.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #225 on: 03 May , 2012, 13:09 »
Tore -
I have the same drawings as well. I did not know about the small triangular brackets holding the bins to the steel casing plate. Nice detail! On the drawings it looks as if the bins are slightly tapered (gently conical) with rounded bottoms. There may or not be a rim band on the part that prevents it from slipping too deep into the circle cut out in the casing mounting plate.

And of course, there are the brackets. With those topside brackets on 4 places, I would not think that other below-casing bracing would be needed. It seems to me that the container would be fairly solidly mounted.

I also think that the fact that the containers do not bottom out against the pressure hull would be a good thing. If there were damage or casement twisting they would not scrape or make noise against the pressure hull. I also think that if they had direct contact with the pressure hull, they could potentially become a danger to the pressure hull in a depth-charge explosion - they would anvil against it like a pop-rivet in sheet metal!

Thanks Tore.
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #226 on: 03 May , 2012, 23:54 »
Christopher.
Before you are going into a lot of moldingworks. The brackets are my guesswork, I really don`t know. I`m mailing the original picture so you can evaluate my assumption on the brackets.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #227 on: 09 May , 2012, 15:55 »

Christopher
I got a detail picture (bad) of this area where you hopefully can see how it normally looked like. The tables were easy to remove but as rule fitted as shown.
Tore
Well, Guys - here is some more work. I hope I have the spacing right.
Based on the pics that you gentlemen provided of the forward decks, I rebuilt mine once again.
I scrapped the old oil covered deck, and built one that goes all the way up to the torpedo tubes per drawings. I did not replicate the current modern floor covering of U-995, but attempted to replicate the steel treadplate.






I used aluminum foil and embossed it by rolling the knurl from my razor knife to get the small weld beads for tread along the plates that cover the air groups and the two athwartship plates near the tubes. I also built the angled hinged constructions that finish off the forward section near the bordventil and flow meters for the compensating and trim tanks. (these will be added later, along with the emergency hydroplane gear)
Tore - what material was this decking? All steel, or was it wood panels in steel frames. I also have heard it may have been linoleum panels set in steel frames. The pics seem to show color differences, but I was not sure if that was wear and tear on steel or not. I will also put in the small handles and locks in the holes you see I have drilled out.
I like this deck better. It also has the narrow extension that fits between the tubes. I created generic "L" girder framing under it as you will be able to see part of it from my cut-out area, allowing the viewing of the emergency dive plane gear, motors, and trim plumbing.
Christopher

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #228 on: 09 May , 2012, 18:35 »
Great work w the threading beads, very clever technique! It looks a lot more realistic than the result you managed to achieve with the previous pattern (which was excellent for my standards anyways)
keep it upp!

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #229 on: 09 May , 2012, 18:54 »
Thanks SG - I thought the previous one was pretty cool but it was bugging me. This new technique actually raised the knurl dots and left me something to drybrush and put washes against for contrast. I am working on that now. Plus the deck extensions all the way to the tubes work better than the first version.
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #230 on: 09 May , 2012, 23:04 »
What an innovation Christopher, wonderful! Inside the steelframing were brown linoleum, very much in contrast to the shiny steelframes I guess underneath was plain steelplates. The framing of the holes for handles were shiny steel as well.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 May , 2012, 23:42 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #231 on: 09 May , 2012, 23:40 »
Christopher
I stoled a picture from Maciek showing the flooring of a IX type boat, but pretty much the same floor as VIIC.
Tore

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #232 on: 10 May , 2012, 02:20 »
Christopher, another idea to render the threading beads, which just came into my mind after taking medications this morning: the tablets aluminum wrapping! comes in different patterns and seems perfect for the task, one can choose the pattern he likes most. All you have to do is peel off the aluminium foil from the plastic wrapping, a bit tedious i reckon. Your "rolling-razor technique"  ;D seems perfect, faster and much cheaper anyways..
just in case you need to render a different pattern in the future
 

 

 
« Last Edit: 10 May , 2012, 02:33 by SG »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #233 on: 10 May , 2012, 07:57 »
Tore-
Thanks for the info. I am making the inset panels brown linoleum. The photo you showed has a bit of reflection in the linoleum, so I am guessing it was somewhat shiny/glossy. I am on it!

SG - Those are good ideas also for floor tread. I am sure it would be useful - the challenge would be finding the right "tread" and the right size! But I think it is a fine idea!

Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #234 on: 10 May , 2012, 11:23 »
Christopher
 Don`t make the linoleum to shiny, it was never waxed. Looking forward to your picture.
Tore

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #235 on: 14 May , 2012, 05:34 »
Wow, these are great ideas. Love the work!
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #236 on: 06 Jun , 2012, 06:07 »
Four more crewmen reported to the boat today. Two are transfers from the Wehrmacht, so they will need to have navy leather pants and kit issued to them, but i think they will fit in with the crew.


The first is a resin kit from Squadron. Very sharp detail. He even has a laughing sawfish pin on his cap.
I will either make him my LI of the boat, or the Herr Kapitanleuntnant himself. He is seasoned, as you can see by the u-boat combat badge!
He is supposed to be 1:35 and is marked so, but he seems tall. Perhaps 1:32. Acceptable, but tall for a crewman!


The shirtless chap is a Verlinden resin kit 1037.


The others will be torpedomekaniker.  Once they get proper leather trousers and some training, I am sure they will be fine! They come from DML #6574.
I have yet to paint the men, but they will add to the crowded compartment.
I also got about 1000 nut/bolt castings from tichy, and a handfull of small globe valves and fittings from cal-scale so I can begin doing some plumbing.



« Last Edit: 06 Jun , 2012, 06:14 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #237 on: 06 Jun , 2012, 10:10 »
Good to see you`r back in business Christopher, those leatheruniforms were not very comfortable to my opinion, I preferred my pink pyjamas as I wasn`t that much up on the bridge. You shall have quite a job to make submariners of those Wermacht guys.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #238 on: 18 Jun , 2012, 09:23 »
Got a copy of Commander Herbert Werner's book Iron Coffins. Outstanding work! Quite dynamic.

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #239 on: 18 Jun , 2012, 10:12 »
Christopher, you can also look for german tankers with leather uniforms: verlinden productions once had some in their catalogue, now most of 'em are out of production, there's little left (http://www.verlindenonline.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=596, http://www.verlindenonline.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=448 -i am thinking of someone just off the watch who has just dragged himself into his bunk-). Alpine miniatures also has a beautiful figure that would be perfect on the turret bridge (http://www.ultracast.ca/products/Alpine%20Miniatures/35/045/default.htm), anytime you decide to build the turret, obviously. The issue here is they are pretty expensive, but converting them into u-boat crew should be pretty straightforward, barely a "change of head". Am gonna see if i find something more..
Cheers!
« Last Edit: 18 Jun , 2012, 10:19 by SG »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #240 on: 18 Jun , 2012, 12:37 »
Christopher
Converting army uniforms to the correct uniforms of the U-Boat personell is not an easy task. I`m not a specialist on the subject, but we used (unofficially) the german uboat leatheruniforms in my time. I never wore the trousers but sometime the jacket which was long, doublebreasted,4 buttons  and with high collar ( I didn`t like it.) I`m posting a picture of the jacket and the german tankleather uniform to show the difference. The uboat ratings had a shorter leatherjacket as far as I remember. Another peculiar custom in the U boot Waffe was that the CO always wore a white cap even in wintertime, if you have seen das Boot you probably remember. So if you are dressing one of your crewmember as the CO remember the white cap. Uniforms were seldom used inside the boat at seapatrol, a wide mixture of fantastic garment were used, partly civilian ( as my pink pyjamas).
Tore

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #241 on: 18 Jun , 2012, 16:39 »
Tore am sorry not to completely agree with you, but the single breasted leather jacket existed and was popular w u-boat crews. The double-breasted "reefer style" leather jacket w wider collar and normal lapels was intended to be used by deck or bridge personnel and was particularly favoured by officers and warrant officers. The single-breasted leather jacket was meant mainly for engine room personnel use and was produced in black, dark brown and pale grey colors, but as you said there were a number of different combinations of clothing coexisting in a U-boat. Am not a uniform expert but there's photographic evidence of the single-breasted leather jacket being used by U-boat crewmembers. SS tankers (from 12th SS mainly, but they were not the only ones) were issued leather U-boat gear in 1944, together with leather submariners gear from italian navy stocks coming in german possession after the italian armistice of 1943. Found a few pictures of u-boote crewmembers wearing the single-breasted jacket which is similar, if not identical, to the one sported by the Alpine and VP figures. So, no big conversion is requred (apart from sanding off the waist belt and reshape the waist area)..if Christopher is tempted from the idea of using the figures i suggested of course! ;)   
 
 Artworks by Darko Pavlovic from Gordon Williamson's "Wolf Pack", note the difference between the single- breasted jacket and the double-breasted leather coat

 



 U-26 crewmembers loading a torpedo

 
An Inspector wearing a single breasted black leather jacket

 

 Right: U-67 crewmember, left: U-boat commander in England, 1945.
 Artwork from Mollo/Mc Gregor's "Naval, Marine and Air Force uniforms of WW2"
« Last Edit: 18 Jun , 2012, 17:53 by SG »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #242 on: 18 Jun , 2012, 23:49 »
SG
Exellent pictures of a wide selection of Uboat uniforms and thanks for your interesting info on the german uniforms. I remember now the short singlebreasted jackets for the ratings. Again, I`m not at all very conversant with this subject and the way the germans used their uniforms. I guess there migth be a difference as to the time and geographical aerea where the uboats operated, we took over the german stocks in Norway which contained mainly grey uniforms used in the artic waters and we didn`t have any codex for the use, it was of course not an approved part of our uniform. We discarded the uniforms in the end, they were bulky,heavy, uncomfortable and filled up the narrow wardrobeclosets. The more I get involved in the modelbuilding and drawing of the VIICs, the more I realize the importance to pick the timeperiode and the operational area of the boat you select, you have so many executions, but that makes it interesting.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #243 on: 19 Jun , 2012, 09:33 »
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the input. I know I will have some work to do to convert the figures, but I specifically chose ones without the y and the combat harness typically worn by ground forces. It will be a simple matter to make long trousers, and i have seen versions of the double breasted tanker style blouse as well as captured and converted British field blouses.

I am mainly going to portray torpedoroom ratings in my cramped little bow room, along with Herr kapit
« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2012, 10:02 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #244 on: 19 Jun , 2012, 09:58 »
SG,
I plan on doing the complete U35 in cut-away (if you pardon the pun) as she was in drydock after Graf Spee cut her to shreds. I will do the conning tower then. U35 is a type A, so it will have differences from my practice boat I am working on now. Different time period and different type of boat.

I may have to build a practice turm or two between now and then. But I vow one day U35 (the poor thing) will live again!
« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2012, 10:01 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #245 on: 19 Jun , 2012, 10:48 »
Tore, I agree 100% with what you say about the importance of chosing boat and time period. And, THANKS again n again for sharing the infos about those german leather gear, which as far as i I can see hundred of times in pics I will never have the chance too feel/see/wear in real life. Your experience reports add that "living feel" to what I read about u-boats, and that's fantastic. Without you how would i know how unconfy and space-consuming those leather uniforms were? No book would ever tell me. My knowledge on u-boots is purely academic (i.e. what i read in books), yours is real life/1st hand experience.
A constant thank you for all your contributions on this forum, we're lucky u're with us!
 
Christopher: good luck w converting the figures, am sure you'll do an excellent work, and am looking forward to see the wip pics of the conversion soon. Keep up the U-35 project, it sounds a promising, billiant idea!
 
« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2012, 10:55 by SG »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #246 on: 19 Jun , 2012, 12:34 »
SG
Don`t underestimate the researchwork you guys are doing. I`m impressed of the knowledge you all have and the interest you show in the subject. In my active time we didn`t have this historic knowledge, no books were written as yet and no communication with the germans exsisted, we had to develope our own way to operate the boats and our only goal was to get the thing run satisfactorly. As one of the probably last officers alive who served onboard a VIIC as a"frontline sub"  I would be happy if I could contribute to add personal experience and feelings to the "academic facts" thereby to give "meat to the bones" to coming VIICs enthusiasts. I have great fun to be involved.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #247 on: 19 Jun , 2012, 13:26 »
I am impressed with Tore's memory of his ship after all these years. I was a US Marine and spent a dozen days abord a Tarawa class Amphibius Assault Ship, USS Peleliu.  That was 1989.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Peleliu_(LHA-5)

I remember loading her up, I remember why flat bottom ships need to have engines running, and I disembarked her. The coffee was not bad, and the Regular Navy treated the Marines like Cargo. Other than basic layout, I could not tell you much more details than that.
« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2012, 13:28 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #248 on: 20 Jun , 2012, 09:34 »
Here is some progress.
You can tell a work in progress - especially mine!
I have ripped out half of my casing to get it to work with the other half of the casing...
You can also see the white evergreen "L" girders I am laying in on the Sbd side. As you can see, I have added the floods on the Bb side.
I believe I will go in soon and put in the watertight bow tank, and the framing and skin for the extreme forward part of the ship soon.
It is looking somewhat naked.





Shot of interior from D.Spt 63, looking forward. It is funny how some crew members can sleep even with all the construction going on!
You can see the bunks with very tiny springs. The clear tube is a test piece I am going to use to make molds for my emergency deck containers.
That part is far from being finished!
As you can see, I still need to add the torpedo loading hatch and framework for it as well as the end of the schnorkelwell.




Yes, that is a GIANT KITTY in the shipyards of France. Verdampt Allies!
The red control rod for the forward dive planes is just a temporary fit, as is the deck and Bb bulkhead. They will go in solid once I attach the druckk
« Last Edit: 20 Jun , 2012, 09:48 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #249 on: 20 Jun , 2012, 13:25 »
Christopher
Can`t stop beeing amazed by your work. I see you have chosen 3 deckcontainers, which is as our KNM Kya ex U 926. Looking at your clear test tube for molding the containers don`t you think it should be a fraction deeper , see posted drawing. Don`t get rid of the Swartze Katz a number of U boats used that in their crests, it brings luck!
Tore
« Last Edit: 20 Jun , 2012, 22:51 by tore »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #250 on: 20 Jun , 2012, 14:01 »
Tore - I need to put a bottom on the emergency container, but from dead Starboard, it is the right height. Just like in the drawings. The top will get worked as well - (top is too high) I just was using it for the diameter and angle. If I put that Schwarze Katz on my turm, it would crush her! The cat is still laying by the boat... It is very hot and humid today.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/521325_438196426213836_381867187_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/283637_438197052880440_1789368133_n.jpg

:-)

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #251 on: 20 Jun , 2012, 23:54 »
Christopher, you have everything under control. Sometimes it is nice to have documentation that your work is correct, I`m mailing a couple of pictures showing Uboats having 3 deckcontainers, KNM Kya ex U 926 a VIIC and U 1023 a VIIC/41.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #252 on: 21 Jun , 2012, 04:59 »
G R E A T    W O R K     C H R I S T O P H E R  ! ! !

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #253 on: 21 Jun , 2012, 09:09 »
I left room forward a bit of my containers by two frames. That way i coud add or not as needed

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #254 on: 21 Jun , 2012, 10:33 »
Christopher
Sometimes ago somebody wondered where the gangway was stowed in the casing. I just got hold of a picture showing the gangway stowed and it is just in the area you are building as you can see on the photo below.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #255 on: 21 Jun , 2012, 10:42 »
That is a great pic Tore! I will have to add it in! It will not be too difficult to add.
Is it the same for the VIIC old style wooden slotted decks and the late period plank decks?
« Last Edit: 21 Jun , 2012, 11:02 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #256 on: 21 Jun , 2012, 12:01 »
I guess so Christopher.
If you intend to put in a gangway, it was a very simple, fairly narrow type with a possibility to fit on stanchions, this was not always done, particulary on short calls. The gangway was sometimes a challenge to the crewmembers having shoreleave ( read pubcrawls), and more than once we had to fish an unlucky guy up from the sea. I`m posting a couple of photos showing the design.
Tore

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #257 on: 25 Jun , 2012, 03:16 »
Love those details!
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #258 on: 10 Jul , 2012, 09:55 »
Gentlemen
postwar pic, scuttling charges being set :(

Accidentally I have found the answer for question about this photo.
In all our discussions about possible boat's type we have forgotten about type XXIII !
SG was right. The photo presents setting the scuttling charges in the forward torpedo room of U-2321 on 27 November 1945 and which eventually has been sunk by gunfire by HMS Onslow and ORP Blyskawica.
--
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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #259 on: 10 Jul , 2012, 11:03 »
Credit to the wavy navy!
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #260 on: 12 Jul , 2012, 11:15 »
 Great Maciek! Solving mysteries is always a good thing! so it wasn't a type VII..

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #261 on: 14 Aug , 2012, 10:37 »
Good day Mates -
I have been taking up some of my time working on a StuG III Ausf G Early production vehicle in 1:35 as a change in pace but I finally got my G7E's from Mikr Mir out of Ukraine.


It took a month to get from there to Buffalo New York, but that is to be expected. :-). They do not look too bad - though I wish the aft parts were more crisp or Photo Etched Brass... oh well. They will be usable. I tried to scan the parts but the scan came out bad, so I will take a photo later to show the sprues.


The instructions show the main body painted stainless steel and the warhead as a burnt metal color with brass colored propellors and fuse. I know that there has been an ongoing discussion in various places about torpedo color. Any modern theories as to color?


Also, when I go to build my cut-away version of the Famous U-35, I would assume she would have as a typical load-out of G7A's?. My U-35 will have the torps more visible as i envision it. Does anyone know or have drawings of the external differences between G7As and G7Es?
Christopher

« Last Edit: 15 Aug , 2012, 03:23 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #262 on: 15 Aug , 2012, 05:22 »
Hi Christopher
Also, when I go to build my cut-away version of the Famous U-35, I would assume she would have as a typical load-out of G7A's?. My U-35 will have the torps more visible as i envision it. Does anyone know or have drawings of the external differences between G7As and G7Es?


Well, The G7e torpedoes were manufactured since 1935, but because of initial shortage I would assume following torpedo load-out: 4 G7e and 7 G7a (for total number of torpedoes stored in forward torpedo room and in torpedo tubes).


The differences are poorly visible on this drawing:
 http://www.scribd.com/doc/23575323/Anatomy-of-the-Ship-Type-Vii-U-Boat#page=93

See also this photos
http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=2&with_photo_id=31104553&order=date&user=1977304&tag=Submarine%20U-534






(G7e torpedo from U-534)


[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/G7a_

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #263 on: 15 Aug , 2012, 07:08 »
hmmm... Thank you Maciek! I am now looking deeper...! I see the G7E was more common for early loadout than I thought... When i was in the US Marine Corps i learned about various coding and color codes for ammunition. I am still surprised that there is not a reference for WWII Deutsch Torpedo codes.
Thanks for your help!
Christopher

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #264 on: 15 Aug , 2012, 07:38 »
When i was in the US Marine Corps i learned about various coding and color codes for ammunition. I am still surprised that there is not a reference for WWII Deutsch Torpedo codes.
As far as I know, some color codes were used for pistols and (likely) warheads. Simple color codes were also for torpedoes, to distinguish versions with different steering gear (simple gyro - straight runners, or various variants of pattern runners - FAT and LUT).
--
Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #265 on: 15 Aug , 2012, 08:00 »
Maciek...
Thank you so much...
Can you list the codes you mention or can you point me to the places on the web I might see them?
I realize I am currently scratch-building a late WWII type VIIC/41 but my goal in the future is to build U-35 in her period after the Panzerschiff  Admiral Graf Spee cut her to ribbons.
I feel for the poor U-35...
Christopher
(edited for German Noun Capitalization errors on my part...)
« Last Edit: 15 Aug , 2012, 08:02 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #266 on: 24 Aug , 2012, 08:35 »
Hi  Christopher

Can you list the codes you mention or can you point me to the places on the web I might see them?
or German Noun Capitalization errors on my part...)
As far as I remember, I did not read about it on the web, so I will have to look for in my paper sources.
I will let you know.


--
Regards
Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #267 on: 28 Sep , 2012, 04:41 »
 Hi  Christopher
As far as I remember, I did not read about it on the web, so I will have to look for in my paper sources.


Quote
A green band along the tail-piece of a torpedo indicates that it is fitted with an engine of increased horse-power.
A green ring around the depth-setting indicates a new type, to be set from 12 to 0 metres instead of from 0 to 12 previously.  In the new type setting, the spring is only tensioned when the torpedo is in the tube.  Prisoners stated that the new method of setting the depth from 12 metres downwards is more accurate.    
A red bar on G7a, torpedo indicates that it is not to be fired with a speed setting of 44 knots during trials, in order to preserve its mechanism.
http://uboatarchive.net/U-517INT.htm


I'm sure, you are following this thread:
http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=407.msg12110#msg12110
--
Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #268 on: 28 Sep , 2012, 15:12 »
Thanks Maciek!
I appreciate that! Good Searching!
Christopher

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #269 on: 13 Nov , 2012, 15:02 »
Hi  Christopher


Next few informations about torpedoes:
Quote
A prisoner claimed some knowledge of the red and green markings on torpedoes.  He said that the markings referred to the weight of the head, those with the red ring being stated to have the heavier head.  The prisoner added that those torpedoes marked with a red ring would have as "verst

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #270 on: 13 Nov , 2012, 15:46 »
Maciek...
Thanks! I am looking to see if there are lists of M.Dv. (Marine Druckvorschriften = Naval Instructions) that may or may not have to do with torpedos. I have uncovered a number of land based H.Dv. (Heers Druckvorschriften = Army Instructions) that deal with explosives and ordnance. I will be detailing my findings for the ammunition and weapons for UBoot related Flak  and Schiffkanone as I develop it.


This is a page I am developing for ground based ordnance https://www.kabutographics.com/Munition003.html and will be working on the 2cm FlaK, 37cm FlaK ammunition and weapons for UBoots as well as the 7,5cm and 8,8cm SchiffKanone ammunition and weapons for UBoots.


These are works in progress, but I plan on making them relatively detailed.


As for M.DV: Ones for the Navy that might be interesting so far are:

M Dv g. 381
Tauchvorschrift f

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #271 on: 14 Nov , 2012, 09:01 »
Hi Christopher


Interesting project, keep us informed.
M Dv g. 381 Tauchvorschrift f

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #272 on: 14 Nov , 2012, 14:02 »
Maciek,
I have indeed seen that one. I also found a listing of all of the M.Dv.
http://www.superborg.de/mdv001.htm

These might be useful:

M.Dv.Nr. 416/3 Geheim! Torpedo-Schie

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #273 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 00:38 »
oooh-ooooh! cool documents!
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #274 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 10:05 »
Rokket -
I agree entirely - I am thrilled with the prospect of romping through a field strewn with the bloom of primary sources!


As an artist, a Historian, and a Marine, I will never understand why a government chose to disseminate information using "Fraktur" typefaces.





They are fine for personalized calligraphy, for awards, and the like, but as pamphlet titles, and worse - sometimes as body copy - it is easy to degrade and difficult to read.


Just my artistic opinion... :-)

Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #275 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 11:18 »
Christopher, the M.Dv 847 would be very interesting to see, only the title :"Preliminary instruction for caretaking of the diesel engineplants on board ships, submarines and launches of the Navy" written in Gothic letters, what could be a better example of German naval bureaucracy. During the war I was a schoolboy in an occupied country, we normally had English as our 2ND.language to be taught from 4.grade on, howewer the germans changed that and German language became mandatory, including the learning of Gothic letters. It took a while before you could read it . A very interresting detail, the swastika is removed from the eagles wreath.
Tore
« Last Edit: 15 Nov , 2012, 11:22 by tore »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #276 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 12:01 »
Tore-
I studied German as an elective language in high school. In my studies the last several years I am picking up more and more of it, but without actually living there I shall never be fluent. I can reasonably read the Gothic type, and am getting better on German abbreviations. It has always amused me that nearly whole sentences in German can have so many abbreviations!

As I understand it it is pretty standard in the EU to remove swastikas from printed material available on-line, and showed to the general public. I understand in a way why this was done, but as a historian, I do not agree with it in its entirety. To study is not the same as to worship or to emulate! I would rather see people educated than information blacked out. Just my opinion. Your kilometers may vary!
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #277 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 12:40 »
This one might be interesting for modelers as well...
M.Dv.Nr. 260 Bekleidungs- und Anzugsbestimmungen f
« Last Edit: 15 Nov , 2012, 12:44 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #278 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 13:51 »
Well, Gentlemen,
I have found a Motherload of docs that might be useful for us...

Kriegsmarine Dienstvorschriften:
M.Dv. 170/2 Merkbuch
« Last Edit: 15 Nov , 2012, 15:36 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #279 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 14:07 »
Thanks Christopher!

Perhaps U-1308 will get some ammunition soon ;) The crew been eager to test the 3.7 cm Flakzwilling M43U that they got last summer.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #280 on: 15 Nov , 2012, 14:15 »
Simon -
:-) Sehr g

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #281 on: 10 Dec , 2012, 12:14 »
Good day Gents!
Here is a bit I have been working on as an addition to the drawings I am making for my projects. I have determined I need to upgrade and complete my drawings more before I do more modeling work on my cut-away.
There are collective errors that have crept in to the model to the point that I am seriously giving thought to  "Cut-away Mark III" All the work I have done so far has been good practice, and I have a list of "improvements" i want to incorporate.
This is the period of modeling that I loath - the part where you wonder if it is better to start over and make better, or retrofit a project that is going south...
Christopher (Updated the drawing to reflect Maciek's valve pic)
« Last Edit: 13 Dec , 2012, 11:36 by TopherVIIC »

Offline dbauer

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #282 on: 10 Dec , 2012, 12:27 »
 :(  I can understand why some people find the emblems used in the Third Reich offensive.  My Father, who is a Kriegsmarine Veteran has always concluded that Hitler and the Nazi were idiots even then. But I also feel it is doing the present generation a big disservice not allowing them  to see and even allowing them to make their own  judgements. Many young poeple (30 and younger) in Europe and the US don't even realize or care if there was a World War II. To them it is "ancient history" When I build a model of a German WWII subject, if I want a flag or marking on it, I put it on. It is "Historically accurate".  If they don't like it, don't look.

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #283 on: 10 Dec , 2012, 12:31 »
:(  I can understand why some people find the emblems used in the Third Reich offensive.  My Father, who is a Kriegsmarine Veteran has always concluded that Hitler and the Nazi were idiots even then. But I also feel it is doing the present generation a big disservice not allowing them  to see and even allowing them to make their own  judgements. Many young poeple (30 and younger) in Europe and the US don't even realize or care if there was a World War II. To them it is "ancient history" When I build a model of a German WWII subject, if I want a flag or marking on it, I put it on. It is "Historically accurate".  If they don't like it, don't look.

I tend to agree with you on all aspects. :-)
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #284 on: 10 Dec , 2012, 21:04 »
Good evening gents -
I have added several hundred definitions to the Nomenklatur pages on my site if anyone finds them useful.
http://www.kabutographics.com/namen_a.html
and all of the other alphabet pages as well.
Christopher


Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #285 on: 11 Dec , 2012, 23:00 »
Hi Christopher


I like the hull valve drawing very much.


--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #286 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 00:34 »
Thank you for a lot of great information Chris.  Your drawing is excellent.  When I continue working on my Type VIIc interior build, sometime this decade hopefully, the next section will be the Zentrale and this information will be invaluable.  Thank you again!
 
Ernest

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #287 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 01:03 »
Christopher.
Your drawings are of professional quality, together with Simon you two guys are providing a lot of documentation of the VIICs. I`m probably interfering on a subject I should`t because I don`t know anything about the torpedoes but I noticed a few details on your sea board valve drawing. To me I got the impression that the pipeplan shows an ordinary boardvalve with air connection for weedblowing. Se standard sketch below. As far as I can see(it may be wrong) there are only two valves connected to the valvehousing as usual the correctly marked ( with a ball) handwheel for the boardvalve and the smaller correctly marked handwheel for the seaweedblowing. This arrangement is on all vital board valves. Again sorry for interfering.

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #288 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 01:20 »
Hi Tore
To me I got the impression that the pipeplan shows an ordinary boardvalve with air connection for weedblowing. Se standard sketch below. As far as I can see(it may be wrong) there are only two valves connected to the valvehousing as usual the correctly marked ( with a ball) handwheel for the boardvalve and the smaller correctly marked handwheel for the seaweedblowing. This arrangement is on all vital board valves.


Tore, of course you are right - the hull valve in the forward torpedo room is fitted with the connection for seaweedblowing, but it is left unconnected (in contrast to the similar valve in the aft torpedo room). Some time ago I have been wondering about it, and I suppose, that Germans left it unconnected to simplify the low pressure installation (although near is a low pressure line to flooding and draining torpedo tubes) and this valve was not as "vital" as the other valves (in control room - for drain pumps, in diesel engine room - for engine cooling, in aft torpedo room - for electric motor cooling).
--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #289 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 07:02 »
Christopher/ Maciek.
Maciek thanks for the answer. I having studied the drawings and photos a bit more and I guess the only right in my previous post is that I do not know anything about torpedoes ;D . Anyhow me being puzzled about seaweed blowing is probably due to the fact that I didn`t recognize the icon for the seavalve properly, it is not a suction seavalve (as for pumps) but a flooding seavalve normally not equipped with weedblowing (low suction). Normally the seavalve housing do not have any direct connection to other pipes, branch off is done after the valve ( except HP air for weedblowing) however this valve has indeed a connection for fineflooding instead of weedblowing. Below I have made a picture trying to explain my thoughts.
I`m not sure about the 2nd. extra connection you made on the valvehousing Christopher, as I cannot see it on the photo and it is unusual to have so many connections directly on the seaboardvalves. Again I am in deep water when I come to torpedo questions you guys know better than me.
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2012, 07:07 by tore »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #290 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 20:18 »
Christopher/ Maciek.
Maciek thanks for the answer. I having studied the drawings and photos a bit more and I guess the only right in my previous post is that I do not know anything about torpedoes ;D . Anyhow me being puzzled about seaweed blowing is probably due to the fact that I didn`t recognize the icon for the seavalve properly, it is not a suction seavalve (as for pumps) but a flooding seavalve normally not equipped with weedblowing (low suction). Normally the seavalve housing do not have any direct connection to other pipes, branch off is done after the valve ( except HP air for weedblowing) however this valve has indeed a connection for fineflooding instead of weedblowing. Below I have made a picture trying to explain my thoughts.
I`m not sure about the 2nd. extra connection you made on the valvehousing Christopher, as I cannot see it on the photo and it is unusual to have so many connections directly on the seaboardvalves. Again I am in deep water when I come to torpedo questions you guys know better than me.
Tore

Tore -
I will be the first person to admit if my drawing is not right. I submit it to all involved so we can learn more, and I will change the drawing should we gain more understanding.
I swear I see a second valve in several pictures as shown below. Admittedly, the green paint and lighting do not make it easy to see, but it looks like a valve with a small "L" shaped actuator that has a ball on the end of it, like the larger one only smaller. I do not know what it leads to. I also have to put the airline on the forward section that leads to the Ausgleicharmatur. I am not exactly sure how that fixes to the Bordventil housing, but it should not be terribly difficult to figure out. I do have one pic showing the air line coming out forward at a 90 degree angle. To me it looks as if there are a total of three fixtures tapped into the bordventil casting, and the large pipe connecting to the compensating and trim tanks.

I have outlined and slightly enhanced the questionable valve in red. I do thank all of you gentlemen, and look forward to figuring this out.
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #291 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 20:51 »
Also working on various subsystems of the torpedo tubes. Here are drawings (that are subject to change of course) Please let me know what you think...








Investigating the tubes, i have come to the realization that while nominally mirrored they cannot be exactly mirrored, as the torpedos are the controlling factor.
There are no port or starboard torpedos - so certain fixtures must be in the same place on each tube.
There are, however, port-side fixtures and starboard fixtures for the tubes. You cannot use all of the parts from one side to fix the other side.
This no doubt, increased the logistical load for the warehousing and mechanical people.
The pistons have keys/ears the go diagonally depending on the side of the ship they are on.
The aft torpedo tube on the U-995 seems to be closest to the portside model.
I will be adjusting and investigating more - feel free to add observations.
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #292 on: 12 Dec , 2012, 23:21 »
Hi Christopher


Good work - really nice drawings.






For me, it looks like tube walls were to thin. It seems, that your drawing is based on the Vesikko's torpedo tube, which in my opinion is not the same as tubes on German U-Boats. There are no place for recesses for piston ears.



Investigating the tubes, i have come to the realization that while nominally mirrored they cannot be exactly mirrored, as the torpedos are the controlling factor.
There are no port or starboard torpedos - so certain fixtures must be in the same place on each tube.
There are, however, port-side fixtures and starboard fixtures for the tubes. You cannot use all of the parts from one side to fix the other side.
This no doubt, increased the logistical load for the warehousing and mechanical people.
The pistons have keys/ears the go diagonally depending on the side of the ship they are on.
The aft torpedo tube on the U-995 seems to be closest to the portside model.


Right, the gyro angle gear is always on the stb side of the tube, while depth and speed setting gear - on the port (for forward tubes). The pistons were not exchangeable between the tubes.


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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #293 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 00:30 »
Christopher.
I fully agree the proof is on you photo, no doubt it is a third valve connection, I failed to see that. Again I don`t know the torpedoside of the system, but if somebody has not messed around with the T-handle this valveconnection with a handleball should be in direct connection ( shortcutting the mainvalve) with the sea. The 90 degrees T-handlebend should indicate the type of the connection, fuel, air or steam. I don`t see fuel as an alternative, air could of course be weedblowing, but that was usually not a T-handle but a small wheel. The valve is placed in the bow area, in bad weather the bow was frequently above the
surface, U 995 was operating in the Arctic, Barents sea, theoretically it could be a steam deicing connection, although I never heard of it and I cannot remember any icing problems in this area. Below I have indicated the two handle alternatives if you are able to identify the type on you photo. You drawings are absolutely of professional standard and a pleasure to look at.
Tore
« Last Edit: 13 Dec , 2012, 00:32 by tore »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #294 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 01:09 »
Christopher.
Looking at the available system sketches there are no indications of these connections on the standard sketches, that might be because it is a later modification based on experience.
According to the standard for the handledesign, both  smaller valves should be connected to  the seaside of the mainvalve ( low on the valvehousing), they should be able to be opened with the mainvalve shut. I believe a  possible equalizing pipeconnection would according to the handle code have a T handle valve and that could leave the wheel handlevalve to a possible weedblowing airconnection which is really not standard for the flowvalve.  I have of course nothing to contribute on the need for torpedosystem piping.
Tore
« Last Edit: 13 Dec , 2012, 01:20 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #295 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 01:17 »
Here is one more shot of this valve


--
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Maciek

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #296 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 01:44 »
Hi Christopher

Fantastic drawing!

It made me recheck my drawings, which was great as I found a few small mistakes which I was able to fix :)

Simon

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #297 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 01:56 »
Maciek
Unbelievable a third extra connection on a seaboard valve. This look more than a seaweed blow valve, leaving the other two in the dark. Could we guess equalizing line and steam? I really not sure.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #298 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 02:07 »
Unbelievable a third extra connection on a seaboard valve. This look more than a seaweed blow valve, leaving the other two in the dark. Could we guess equalizing line and steam? I really not sure.


Well, the visible line going right is pressure equalizing line. The other two, top located small valves seem to be unconnected. I bet, that one (with wheel handle) would be for seaweed blowing, while the other - with "L" handle - for example - connection for the depth meter (as far as I know, in forward torpedo room there isn't separate pressure hull opening for this gauge).


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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #299 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 04:37 »
Maciek.
I guess you could be right.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #300 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 05:55 »
Here is one more shot of this valve


--
Regards
Maciek

Outstanding Maciek! Thanks! That is exactly the pic I needed. I will fix the drawing today!
Christopher
« Last Edit: 13 Dec , 2012, 09:56 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #301 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 10:18 »
More thoughts and observations on Torpedo Tubes:
Below are several pics showing the outer aspects of various ship's torpedo tubes. One is from Vesikko, there are Type IX and Type VII boats showing the same detail.
I am curious as to the fact that all of these boats seem to have somewhat thin castings that have the vent channel and two piston ear channels cast into the tube shape, yet the famous gray cut-away torpedo tube does not have these cast channels, nor do any of the tubes on U-995.


These should be visible if the actually exist on U-995, but I do not believe the bulges deform the exterior of the U-995 tubes. Clearly, though, the channels and vents are obvious inside the tubes. My question/theory is this: Are these tubes with the exterior bulges the earlier bronze tubes that were cast, and were the later steel tubes thicker, but having the channels cut into the tube with a smooth exterior?
As discussed in a previous thread, it was questionable as to if the exterior dimensions would be altered as that might make the fittings need adjusted. I submit that the thickness of the mounting pads would make up for changing to a thicker steel tube with thinner pads - thus keeping the mounting points the same.


U-164 The first one I plan on using extensively as this is the only pic I have seen that show the fixture mounting pads and bolt locations... but you will notice quite obviously the marked casting channels.

U-260 shows the same bulges near the muzzle and along the length


U-352 shows the obvious shape cast into the tubes.

Vesikko has similar bulges, and most definitely would have had earlier style tubes, although obviously not the same kind as on the VIICs and IXs.





Just thoughts as I was working this morning...
Christopher


Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #302 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 10:48 »
Christopher, I believe we can verify this easily by looking at the tubes of the Type XXI and XXIII as there tubes I am sure are steel. We just need a few good photo

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #303 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 10:50 »
Christopher, I believe we can verify this easily by looking at the tubes of the Type XXI and XXIII as there tubes I am sure are steel. We just need a few good photo

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #304 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 11:00 »
Hi Christopher


Great work with these "external bulges". I would never think, it could be done that way.


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Maciek

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #305 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 11:22 »
Christopher, I believe we can verify this easily by looking at the tubes of the Type XXI and XXIII as there tubes I am sure are steel. We just need a few good photo

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #306 on: 13 Dec , 2012, 11:31 »
Christopher, I believe we can verify this easily by looking at the tubes of the Type XXI and XXIII as there tubes I am sure are steel. We just need a few good photo

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #307 on: 14 Dec , 2012, 01:40 »
Maciek, I did not realise they werepiston-less. Why did they remove the piston system?


The following disadvantages of the piston caused it to be abandoned:
1. there was some leakage of air bubbles, especially on the return stroke when the inertia of the piston and incoming water column caused peaks of pressure behind the piston which momentarily exceeded the outside water pressure.
2. As a result of the close clearances required between the piston and the tube, any slight deformation of the tube was sufficient to put it out of commission. This problem was so serious during the war (because of depth charge damage) that some U-Boats required one or more tubes to be replaced after each patrol. The influence is shown in the Type XXVI design, where the torpedo loading hatch was made large enough to permit the passage of the after (internal) section of the tube, thus enabling replacement to be made in some cases without docking.
(see also: http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUOrder61.htm)
3. The piston had to be removed for each reload.
4. The construction of the tube barrel was heavy and complicated by the guide slots and buffing chambers. Moreover, the weight of a piston for each tube was added.
5. Extremely accurate machine wokr was required on both the piston and the tube.
 

The absence of the piston simplified the construction of the barrel, there was no difference between the surface and submerged launch. Moreover, the new design allowed launching torpedoes from depth up to 100 m.


--
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Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #308 on: 14 Dec , 2012, 01:55 »
I have attached two photos of aft torpedo tubes from U995 with visible external bulges. I don't know, if these tubes are made from bronze or steel - on the attached photo of tube interior it seems for bronze, but I do not have knowledge and experience to say on the basis of photo.


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Maciek

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #309 on: 14 Dec , 2012, 06:01 »
Thanks Maciek -
I suppose that defeats rather soundly my theory that late period tubes did not have the bulges - I just needed the right photo, and your two definitely show them. None of the ones I have had until now show a definitive bulge.
Good to know.
It does tell us one thing for sure - putting a string or a tape measure around them to get an external diameter will not be exact with the bulges in the way, but could still be reasonably close. We still need someone to find wall thickness with calipers. If only we new someone at Laboe!
I will continue to plod on...
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #310 on: 16 Dec , 2012, 18:58 »
Thanks Maciek -
I suppose that defeats rather soundly my theory that late period tubes did not have the bulges - I just needed the right photo, and your two definitely show them. None of the ones I have had until now show a definitive bulge.
Good to know.
It does tell us one thing for sure - putting a string or a tape measure around them to get an external diameter will not be exact with the bulges in the way, but could still be reasonably close. We still need someone to find wall thickness with calipers. If only we new someone at Laboe!
I will continue to plod on...
Christopher

Perhaps it does not destroy my theory...
On excitedly examining these aft torpedo tube images I have not seen, I notice that the U-995 aft tube seems to have the bulges for the vent and piston ear keyways - just like the Tube II from U-164 but I notice it DOES NOT have the double row of hex bolts that should be visible between the mine release lever and the upper (in this case it would be the extreme aft) mine release airline ...just like the Tube II from U-164.


Vesikko has the bulges - but not the double row of bolts running longitudinally...


The disputed "Wavy Navy/German Training pic tubes have the double row of bolts, indicating a possible lining...


The pic of the forward exterior of the tubes projecting through the bow cap show the double row of bolts traveling the length of the tube, AND what looks like a minor piston keyway bulge... but it is not as deep as the bulges visible on U-260 or U-352


I suspect the double row of bolts holds the liners in on the forward tubes, but still think that the aft tube may be older on U-995 and was not replaced. Could it be that U-995 has a bronze tube for the aft tube, and steel tubes forward?


It is not hard for me to imagine that during wartime, it might be prudent to replace or update a ship's main armament in dry-dock, but not to worry about the aft tube... or if wartime supply was interrupted, to update only the forward tubes. U-995 was laid down late in the year in 1942. Do we know if she started with all bronze tubes and had some replaced, or did she start with a mixed lot?

(not all of the images referenced did I re-link pics to save bandwidth but you can see them in the orig. post)
Christopher
« Last Edit: 16 Dec , 2012, 19:27 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #311 on: 24 Dec , 2012, 16:05 »
Happy Yule, Merry Christmas, Gledelig Jul, Happy Festivus, Wesolych Swiat Bozego Narodzenia and Fr
« Last Edit: 24 Dec , 2012, 16:10 by TopherVIIC »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #312 on: 30 Dec , 2012, 21:30 »
I hope all have a happy and prosperous new year.
Here is a cool picture... You may or may not have seen this but I think it is very nice...
Take the time to look through the whole photo stream...
2-cm MG C/30 in Unterseebootslafette
8,8 cm Schnellade Kanone C/35
« Last Edit: 30 Dec , 2012, 21:42 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SG

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #313 on: 31 Dec , 2012, 08:07 »
Amazing stuff, Thx Christopher!!!
 ..and a Very Happy New Year to you too!!
« Last Edit: 31 Dec , 2012, 08:09 by SG »

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #314 on: 31 Dec , 2012, 18:55 »
Wow 60 years dry! Nice seal work!
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TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #315 on: 06 Feb , 2013, 19:16 »
Gentlemen,
I have been working with some 3D software, and have started an augmentation of my project. Below are some pics showing where I am going. I am working on a complete 3D version of the same model I am scratch-building. I am finding it easier to realize actual shapes and their relationships.







« Last Edit: 06 Feb , 2013, 19:20 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #316 on: 06 Feb , 2013, 19:32 »
Christopher, looking great!

What software are you using?

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #317 on: 06 Feb , 2013, 19:36 »
Thanks! Using DAZ Hexagon 2.5 Pro for mac, DAZ Cararra 7 pro, and illustrator. It is the first time I have ever generated 3D. I have a long way to go but it is a good start. http://www.daz3d.com
« Last Edit: 06 Feb , 2013, 19:38 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #318 on: 06 Feb , 2013, 19:58 »
I had a little play with Blender. I found it hard, but I sure with a little time I would find it easier.

I can imagine trying to get the correct sizing and getting them to fit in 3D must be very hard, it hard enough to do in 2D.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #319 on: 06 Feb , 2013, 20:09 »
Christopher, I was also going to say, a dream of my would be to build a Type VIIC with software like SolidWorks. A fully working 3D U-boat simulation ;D

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #320 on: 06 Feb , 2013, 20:19 »
Simon - You keep working on your "Spaggetti", I will work on the sausages, and we will meet in the middle! Given that neither of us has hands on the boat, I think we are doing pretty good so far...

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #321 on: 07 Feb , 2013, 01:42 »
Christopher.
I am impressed and amazed what you are able to do.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #322 on: 07 Feb , 2013, 03:00 »
Christopher,


can't believe my eyes... Really impressive and great work!


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Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #323 on: 07 Feb , 2013, 04:47 »
Thanks Gentlemen! I am really looking at the forward compartment. I have a long way to go, but I feel if I keep up this aspect of the 3D drawing, I will be able to return to my real build and understand it better. I will post pics as I go, and as usual if there are any observations I am missing, please feel free to educate me!

Offline OldNoob

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #324 on: 07 Feb , 2013, 08:03 »
The dark arts of plasticard ;D

AMAZING WORK!!! i'm just blown away by the attention to detail.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #325 on: 07 Feb , 2013, 10:52 »
I am working on fixture pads for the rohr. anyone have any hi def pics?
I have one, showing a swap out but I am not sure which boat it belongs to... a type IXc I believe. have to check...
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #326 on: 17 Feb , 2013, 20:36 »
Gentlemen:
Here is some more progress on my 3D drawing. I am finding the placement of items by comparing my model to as many photographs as I can, and adjusting as needed until I get the fit to be as right as possible. I have found that the drain, for instance, sits farther aft than suspected. Where I have it now also fits the slots in the between-tube decking from known drawings.
This is challenging, but rewarding. B-) I am learning what this software can do - and what I wish it could do!
Christopher








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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #327 on: 18 Feb , 2013, 04:04 »
Christopher.
I am just repeating my shelf amazing! However it is not only the software which would be rubbish if the input was not right. Well done.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #328 on: 23 Feb , 2013, 11:50 »
Good Morning Chaps!
Worked on the Breech caps a bit. Does any one know what the embossed letters in the casting on the breech caps, and on the inboard side of the torpedo tubes says? I know there is a hundred layers of paint over them, but I find it difficult to make out.
Also, some tubes have oval data plates on the top front, others have round ones. Is that indicative of different shipyards/manufacturers? U-995 used to wear oval plates.
Christopher









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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #329 on: 23 Feb , 2013, 12:10 »
They look like serial numbers ???

Tube I
08        02

Tube II

500 2007 50 1
 
Tube III
     3707 15
 

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #330 on: 23 Feb , 2013, 15:33 »
Christopher.
I cannot give you any advice as to the torpedotubes, but just as a general rule on mechanical devices: for casting the foundries makes the embossed letters and figures usually as a production code relating to the castingdetails, materials etc. The nameplates I guess would contain details as to the ready made product, serialnos, pressuretesting,production year and name of the manufacturer etc. I wish you had started with the engineroom! ;D
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #331 on: 08 Mar , 2013, 09:32 »

Here is some new work Gentlemen:
- Detailed pressure relief hand wheel on breech door (A surprisingly difficult shape to construct in 3D!)
- Notched the  Breech Door Locking ring. The pivot point for the door is properly on the hinge pin, so it can be opened.
- Locking ring will rotate properly
- I still have to detail the inner side of the door - but all things in their time!
- Notched the Breech door itself to mate with locking ring when it is rotated properly
- Redesigned inner tube shape at mouth to match proper tubes
- Added longitudinal liner-bolts
- Added secondary muzzle opening crank device and chain guard.
- Started to detail interlocks on locking ring.


I am becoming a serious fan of 3D. I am glad I am adding it to my arsenal of artistic tools.
Christopher
(of course I realize after I posted the pics that the locking ring position at the moment is incongruent with an open breech door - but hey - That is not a permanent thing! :-)





« Last Edit: 10 Mar , 2013, 09:34 by TopherVIIC »

Offline dbauer

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #332 on: 08 Mar , 2013, 16:15 »
 8) You guys have too much time on your hands!
What is this for anyway?
Regards,
Dan

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #333 on: 10 Mar , 2013, 05:43 »
Hi,
- Detailed pressure relief hand wheel on breech door (A surprisingly difficult shape to construct in 3D!)


 Excellent work  Christopher, one note - this is not pressure relief handle wheel, but a handle wheel for spindle to adjusting piston postion (and whole tropedo) in torpedo tube, when breech doors are closed.


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Maciek

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #334 on: 10 Mar , 2013, 05:56 »
Amazing artwork Christopher!!! Am speechless

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #335 on: 10 Mar , 2013, 09:27 »
Quote
Excellent work  Christopher, one note - this is not pressure relief handle wheel, but a handle wheel for spindle to adjusting piston postion (and whole tropedo) in torpedo tube, when breech doors are closed.
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Maciek
Thanks Maciek! I MEANT to type Position Relief not pressure relief! One day I will learn to use a keyboard properly! ;-)
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #336 on: 11 Mar , 2013, 05:12 »
all awesome stuff. I think with all of us here (and about the equivalent f 5+million 1940s dollars) we could build and crew a VIIC. Forget "Assault on a Queen".

I used to work for a living history museum, and this, this my friends, is living history. NZ Snowman and Topher can provide the plans, Tore will Captain, and the rest, we will build and crew!
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TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #337 on: 12 Mar , 2013, 11:49 »
Rokket:
I just wish I could get in there with a camera, a tape rule, a set of calipers, and a notebook. Hmm... Things to do today... Win Gigantic lottery. Update my passport. Feed cats and frogs. Fly to Deutschland... B-)


Here is more work on the tubes.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #338 on: 23 Mar , 2013, 16:46 »
Here is some more work Gentlemen.
Worked on the muzzle - opening gear some, and added some breech cap detail and the druckausgleichhahn.
I need to figure out how to make an acme screw in this software... but you can see the start of this section.




Yes - Those are cotter-pin nut-locks, just like on the U-995!

Below you can see the breech opening gear for Rohr I and II (The same piece will work for III and IV upside-down, when placed appropriately)
Does anyone have any pics of the back side of this equipment showing the gears and possibly the cog that opens the locking ring?


Here are some of the locking ring details for the interlocks...

and finally the druckausgleichhahn.




When I get all of the hardware in, I will snake my HP and LP airlines and such, but there is no need to do that just yet. I want to make sure I get the hardware looking right.
The colors are lightly randomized for the modeling process. As I complete the model I will actually get down and dirty and do real textures and bump maps and such.
Ok Gentlemen - time for me to go get some Chinese dinner with my lovely wife...
Christopher
« Last Edit: 23 Mar , 2013, 16:55 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #339 on: 24 Mar , 2013, 01:44 »
Christopher.
Remarkably well done. You should be employed by the navy to make instruction manuals.
Tore

Offline OldNoob

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #340 on: 24 Mar , 2013, 13:46 »
The amount of attention and dedication to accuracy on this build/cad model amazes me.




TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #341 on: 02 Apr , 2013, 22:43 »
Gentlemen -
Worked on the impulse air bottles and put in the start of the HP Airlines to the mine equipment. I will be working on the firing gear and tripper next. Then after that, the main connections to the air bottles. Slow, but still going...
Christopher







Offline OldNoob

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #342 on: 06 Apr , 2013, 02:32 »
Wonderful work. Will you be releasing a 3d interactive virtual tour once you have completed the project?

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #343 on: 06 Apr , 2013, 08:21 »
Wonderful work. Will you be releasing a 3d interactive virtual tour once you have completed the project?
OldNoob -
That is an interesting question. I am currently both building and tearing down the digital work. I have to put in enough data detail to act as structure, then can put in pixel data as texture. I also have to figure out places I can cheat to reduce vertices. For instance my natural tendency is to put in as much detail as possible but do you really need beveled nuts on the back side of the torpedo tubes, between the air bottles? Small numbers of vertices tend to add up.
My point - right now it is becoming a rather large digital model. When it is finished, perhaps I will look into tying it in to a gaming engine and come up with a low poly version.
So a virtual tour could be possible in the future.
The actual point of this digital build is to get me back to my 1:35 scale build. I ran into some cumulative errors on that build that bugged me so I wanted to explore the issue in 3D space.

Christopher


PS: A possible side venture that this could develop into... and believe me, I am looking into it. This could, with the aid of a 3D Printer, as Marco has done, turn into the positive for molds to make 1:35th - or any scale, really reproductions. If I could work it up, it might be a cool kit to offer to the world!!!
C
« Last Edit: 06 Apr , 2013, 08:28 by TopherVIIC »

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #344 on: 06 Apr , 2013, 18:04 »
Wow! I thought yo had slipped in some pix of a real boat. Very impressive!
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #345 on: 08 Apr , 2013, 06:00 »
Hi Gentlemen,


Being with torpedo tubes subject, I have updated my description of U-Boats torpedo tubes:
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/equipment/torpedo-tubes-of-german-u-boats


The major update is section about heating torpedo batteries, but there are also several
minor changes.


--
Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #346 on: 08 Apr , 2013, 14:53 »
Hi Gentlemen,


Being with torpedo tubes subject, I have updated my description of U-Boats torpedo tubes:
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/equipment/torpedo-tubes-of-german-u-boats


The major update is section about heating torpedo batteries, but there are also several
minor changes.


--
Regards
Maciek
Thanks Maciek - good information.
The FaT drawings were quite useful. I will have to design torpedo tubes Pre-FaT (probably bronze), ones with FaT (Probably steel) and ones with LuT. Because I have the most pictures of LuT Mechanisms, I am starting with those, but if you have any more information or drawings on the FaT and LuT mechanisms on the Rohr I would appreciate it! :-)
I am also trying to find period drawings on the angle setting and firing mechanisms.
Questions -
... could a tube have both FaT and Lut mechanisms, and were they the same location on the torpedoes/tubes?
... do you know the frame locations on the Type VIIC/VIIC-41 for the ETO Heizkasten? Were they likely in the similar location you showed on the Type IX? I see the vibration shock mountings on the drawings at http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate34.htm but I do not see those devices on the photos I have of U-995.
Surely she must have had the ability to fire electric torpedoes... "LUT-Versionen wurden aus den g
« Last Edit: 08 Apr , 2013, 15:48 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #347 on: 09 Apr , 2013, 01:40 »
Hi Christopher,


The FaT drawings were quite useful. I will have to design torpedo tubes Pre-FaT (probably bronze), ones with FaT (Probably steel) and ones with LuT. Because I have the most pictures of LuT Mechanisms, I am starting with those, but if you have any more information or drawings on the FaT and LuT mechanisms on the Rohr I would appreciate it! :-)

Unfortunately I do not have drawings of the LUT setting mechanisms. I can only imagine how it looked like based on the the location and assembly of LUT gear in the torpedo and external photos of the setting gear on the tube.
 
I am also trying to find period drawings on the angle setting and firing mechanisms.


Same thing as in case of LUT gear.
When you will start working on this mechanisms, I can present my supposition, how it looked like.


Questions -

... could a tube have both FaT and Lut mechanisms, and were they the same location on the torpedoes/tubes?


Well, no. The FAT setting gear consisted of two parts - one - regular gyro angle setting spindle - as in case of regular GA VIII, and FAT spindle, located in the area of overpressure valve (forward of gyro angle setting spindle).
LUT setting gear consisted of multi-spindle gear located in place of regular GA VIII gyro angle setting spindle.
These two mechanism could not be built at the same time.


 
... do you know the frame locations on the Type VIIC/VIIC-41 for the ETO Heizkasten? Were they likely in the similar location you showed on the Type IX? I see the vibration shock mountings on the drawings at http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate34.htm but I do not see those devices on the photos I have of U-995.

I have not seen any photos of the type VIIC boat with visible ETO Heizkasten. I have only text description saying:
Quote
Five Electric torpedo heating control boxers, (ETO HEIZKASTEN). Of these two were mounted on the port side, and two on the starboard side, placed for use with torpedoes loaded in the bow tubes, and one at the stern for use with the torpedo loaded in the stern tube.

Based on the given dimensions I can assume location of these four boxes - there are some unused mountings on the pressure hull. I will try to present them.


By the way, on the photo of U190 forward torpedo room there are visible three ETO Heizkasten on the port side.



Surely she must have had the ability to fire electric torpedoes... "LUT-Versionen wurden aus den g

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #348 on: 09 Apr , 2013, 06:05 »
Maciek -
Thanks again...
Quote
Well, no. The FAT setting gear consisted of two parts - one - regular gyro angle setting spindle - as in case of regular GA VIII, and FAT spindle, located in the area of overpressure valve (forward of gyro angle setting spindle). LUT setting gear consisted of multi-spindle gear located in place of regular GA VIII gyro angle setting spindle. These two mechanism could not be built at the same time.


This is what I thought as far as the torpedo itself -, but I have seen a couple confusing references that seemed to indicate that there were tubes that were able to fire FaT and LuT torpedoes interchangeably. It was my understanding that a tube either had FaT OR LuT but not both at the same time.


I notice in photos of U-995 there are several shock mounts applied to the inside of the druckkorper between D.Spt that could be where the heating boxes might have once been mounted.


For instance, betweend Sbd. D.Spt 75-76 near the box with the four torpedo lights there is an obvious mount for something about the same size as what we are looking for... and there is another set of mounts similar, below the manual lube-oul pump Sbd. Dspt. 74-75, near the flow meter.


There are also mounts that had something removed on the BB side above the flow meter quite near electrical switch boxes.
I suspect those might be the mounting points we are looking for.
The hunt continues...
Christopher
« Last Edit: 09 Apr , 2013, 06:14 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #349 on: 18 Apr , 2013, 06:53 »
Hi  Christopher,


I notice in photos of U-995 there are several shock mounts applied to the inside of the druckkorper between D.Spt that could be where the heating boxes might have once been mounted.

For instance, betweend Sbd. D.Spt 75-76 near the box with the four torpedo lights there is an obvious mount for something about the same size as what we are looking for...



I think, that you are talking about these mountings:



I agree, it matches completely.


and there is another set of mounts similar, below the manual lube-oul pump Sbd. Dspt. 74-75, near the flow meter.



You are talking about this area:



In this case, I think, that lower mountings were for some pipe, which was led there and the parts marked with white arrows are just supports for the shelf with lub oil pump.


I do not think, that Germans would mount control box so low, exposing it for the water splashes from torpedo tubes piping.




There are also mounts that had something removed on the BB side above the flow meter quite near electrical switch boxes.


On the port side I have located following:





and





I think you have mentioned these mountings:





These are a little too large (btw, the electric sockets are post-war in my opinion).


So we have two possible mounting area on the port side and one on the starboard - unfortunately I have no idea, where to look for the second mounting area on the stb.


--
Regards
Maciek




TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #350 on: 18 Apr , 2013, 09:54 »
Maciek -
I totally agree with you on the placement for the mountings that are higher in elevation off of the deck, between D.Spt 75-76, and the one nested in high on the Bb "ceiling" between D.Spt 74-75.


I too, would think that the Germans would not place electrical equipment too low where splash water might get to it, if they could help it.



We must still find what the 45 cm x 33 cm mounts near the (post-war) electrical switches. They are an enigma (pardon the pun), as are the (post-war) switches themselves. The underside of the lower set of electrical boxes (painted sloppy dark gray) seem to be of a sort that might allow for something portable to be plugged in to them at the bottom. It is a continuing challenge to figure out what was "period" and what was post-war additions.


What you say about the low mountings by the flow meters also makes sense. I do wonder what pipes used to be mounted there, and why there are not mounts of a similar nature farther forward.


We must also remember that there may have been equipment mounted where the door was cut into the side of U-995. I rather doubt that it was a blank, clean bulkhead.


Thank you for continuing to help me with this.
Christopher

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #351 on: 18 Apr , 2013, 14:44 »
 Christopher,
 
We must still find what the 45 cm x 33 cm mounts near the (post-war) electrical switches. They are an enigma (pardon the pun), as are the (post-war) switches themselves. The underside of the lower set of electrical boxes (painted sloppy dark gray) seem to be of a sort that might allow for something portable to be plugged in to them at the bottom. It is a continuing challenge to figure out what was "period" and what was post-war additions.



I'm surprised myself I did not think about it earlier: these have to be mountings for the ETO charging panel, which has dimensions: 13.25''x 17''x7'' that is 34x43x18 cm. There were one panel on the port side and another on the stb side
(I have no idea, where the stb panel was located).


 
What you say about the low mountings by the flow meters also makes sense. I do wonder what pipes used to be mounted there, and why there are not mounts of a similar nature farther forward.



Some time ago I tried to figure it out - without success. I guess there could be compressed air pipe for capstan air motor, leading to the valves and pressure regulators, which are located near the bottom stb torpedo tube (just behind the angle gear of the diving planes manual drive shaft).




We must also remember that there may have been equipment mounted where the door was cut into the side of U-995. I rather doubt that it was a blank, clean bulkhead.


Right you are, there could be some of missing boxes.


--
Regards
Maciek