Author Topic: VIIC "On the Ways"  (Read 98604 times)

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TopherVIIC

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VIIC "On the Ways"
« on: 23 Dec , 2011, 14:57 »
Hi all. I have a few pics of my rebuild in progress, and I will start a proper build thread here if it is ok.

The project is a VIIC/41 that I am building in 1:35th scale. I chose that scale because I am familiar with it from building armor, I have a billion spare parts that might find their way onto this boat at some point, and I figure I will be able to modify 1:35 scale figures to suitably man this vessel.
It will be a cut-away project, showing through major portions of the Stb. side, with as much framing, structural detail, plumbing, and the like visible through that side. The Bb side (Port) will be skinned, so I can paint and detail the exterior portions and play with weathering.
I am building this section from D.Spt 63 forward, which is the waterproof bulkhead at the aft end of the forward torpedo room.

Having said that, and having looked at the many builds I have seen on this forum and others, I decided to scrap my initial build. As mentioned in the other thread, I just did not like how it was going, and a total re-start from this point would be better than trying to fix what was going bad. Lessons learned!

Here are some pics from the initial work and the rebuild.

I kept the anchor and anchorwell... The anchor is built up from several laminations of .025" styrene and putty. For the large rivets at the base, I drilled tiny holes, inserted some stretched sprue, and when the cement was dry, helt near a candle to make the rivet head. The sprue mushrooms back and taadaa! Rivets!

The anchorwell was made of some carefully cut .015 styrene, shaped and folded origami style, and puttied.
Welds were added from stretched sprue melted with liquid cement and prodded into weld beads with the back of a pointy file


Wooden Torpedo Rohr proxies in the proper position, with a removable placement only bulkhead. This keeps everything aligned and in place till I can get the druckkorper in place.
Let me tell you - it was an exercise in trig to lay out and cut the holes in the metal end cap to fit the tubes. Three dimensional spherical elliptical nightmares to do by hand!


.
Decks A,B,C,D, keel parts, and partial frame 106 bulkhead.

.
Underside of Deck E showing supports, side stringers, and anchor chain locker...



Dry fitting decks and structural members.



.
Opting to do more research on the interior stringer III section between decks B and C lead me to remove this cool looking but wrong truss.
It will only be seen through the oval shaped holes between torpedo hatches, but I want it to be right...
The thin brown paint is to relieve the starkness of pure white plastic, and to make photography slightly easier. These are not final colors! :-)


Pieces going together. Old HP air bottle and forward dive planes saved from old build.
Dive planes are made from laminations of .025 styrene, but I am currently applying Roland's texturing technique to them. More pics of that in the near future!


.
Adding strengthening vanes to tubes I and III, plus outer door opening shaftwork, flanges,  and drainage tubes.
I intend to ad Grandt Line bolt castings as needed in the near future (they are ordered) I will lay in lubrication lines for the shaft-work, and texture the tubes so it looks more like castings. I have a lot of work to do.
Tubes II and IV will only get the detail needed that can be seen from the planned openings on the Sbd. side, as the Bb side will be closed off.

.
Here the old scrapped deck E is in place to evaluate stuff I need to do for Bb torpedo tubes - and my initial evaluation was that I needed to rebuild Deck E!

.
Below is the start of the new Deck E. I will add connections to the sensors and other obvious parts, but I like this new deck better than the old!




Thus is the current state of the build.
I Still need to pick a particular boat, and am looking through available info to find a suitable boat to build this into. I planned on a VIIC/41, but that is not set (yet) in stone. I like the story of U-250 and its sinking, then salvage by the Russians. I know U-250 was a VIIC not a VIIC/41, but the pics I have seen of her show what looks like an Atlantic bow and Turm IV. My boat at this stage is still flexible enough to continue as either a VIIC or a /41.
It would probably be better to pick a boat that there are numerous references and pics of, but I am still looking.
Any ideas gents?

Thanks for your encouragement in the other thread - It helped me to decide to go on and do the best I can do with this project.
Cheers
Christopher
« Last Edit: 27 Dec , 2011, 08:08 by TopherVIIC »

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #1 on: 23 Dec , 2011, 23:53 »
WoW!!! As I said before and others, it's a GREAT idea, something unique, and so well done. We want to see much more of this, and hopefully you will submit to some model mags!
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Offline Greif

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #2 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 01:41 »
This has to be one of the most awesome scratchbuilds I have seen!  You have some wicked skills Chris.  At 1/35 scale it is going to be really big; just short of 2 meters is my guess without doing the math.  I take it that the frames, stringers, decks, etc. are made out of evergreen plastic.  Did you use a punch and die set to make the round holes and a scribing templete the ovals?   

A great resource for uboots in general is uboat.net.  You can select uboat types on the start page and select Type VIIC/41.  On the page theat comes up you can look at each of the 91 Type VIIC/41 uboots that were commissioned.  Each has a short, in some cases very short, history.  That may give you some idea as to which uboot you want to build.  Whichever one you decide upon I will follow your progress with interest.

Cheers,
Ernest

Nevermind4712

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #3 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 01:51 »
Hey!!..great Work!!

Im waiting for Updates:)

Quote
Any ideas gents?


Why not a VII/D?...a Minelayer.
Only 7 Boats and i think than you are the first who build one in 1/35 ;D


TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #4 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 09:33 »
Hmm a VII/D? I will have to research just how much info there is on the mechanisms and storage areas of the mine bay. I may need real estate to house it! I will likely tour the yards over the next few days but the Werft is observing the holidays.
You know how it is.

Well, I will just clean up a little and admire the work. Hmm, didn't notice that support plate is mis-aligned. I'll just fix that... Take a sec.

Hmm, there is some plumbing I need to add. Better fire up the computer and dig out the drawing. Just take a sec. There it is... Oh, what a great pic!!! that has exactly the reference I needed for the anchorwell!

(to wife...) "Honey-I will be out in a few minutes..."

The Happy Times indeed!
Merry Christmas and "Fr

Offline wildspear

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #5 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 10:37 »
Great work so far. where did you get the drawings that your working with? Merry Christmas to you and a happy holiday  season .

bracco_n

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #6 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 10:50 »
Now that's something I've never seen before and it's looking great! I'll be following your build with great interest!
Merry christmas to you all!

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #7 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 11:33 »
Quote
... where did you get the drawings that your working with?
I am taking refs from all over the place - the K

Offline wildspear

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #8 on: 24 Dec , 2011, 12:02 »
that would be awesome

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #9 on: 26 Dec , 2011, 10:41 »
Look great! It like see my drawing in 3D ;D

Look forward to more pictures.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #10 on: 27 Dec , 2011, 08:19 »
As promised, here are a few pics that I drew and use as reference drawings. If these are too large for this forum I will gladly provide links instead -

These Drawings are in 1:35th scale, and for here are @ 72dpi. If anyone wants higher resolution drawings I can make them no problem.

]https://www.kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/TopherVIIC_Dwg001.jpg]


]https://www.kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/TopherVIIC_Dwg002.jpg]


]https://www.kabutographics.com/_VIICBuild/TopherVIIC_Dwg003.jpg]

I am making my drawing in layers, and have layers for each of the frames and D.Spt so I can turn them on and off at will.
I do not have all of the drawings I need yet, as I am still gathering references. I need to acquire a full set of the K
« Last Edit: 27 Dec , 2011, 08:25 by TopherVIIC »

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #11 on: 29 Dec , 2011, 02:31 »
As much work on the dwgs as the boat!
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TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #12 on: 29 Dec , 2011, 15:48 »
Hi!
Here is some more work I have done in the last few days.

Firstly, I have settled on a Rot Rostschutzgrundfarbe that I like. It is similar in color to refs I have found on the web from rust-proofing manufacturers in Europe.
The 1944 regulations state that for "Regel-, Tauch-, Trimm-, Untertrieb- und sonstige Seewasserf
« Last Edit: 29 Dec , 2011, 16:58 by TopherVIIC »

bracco_n

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #13 on: 29 Dec , 2011, 16:55 »
Great job Chris! The colour looks fine to me but I would give it a brown/black wash to darken it a bit but that's just me. Could you tell me what are those "black boxes" on deck E?
Happy New Year!

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #14 on: 29 Dec , 2011, 18:14 »
As you can see, I used a copper colored coated cable (.025") for the connections for the GHG, but have a question...
Were they sheathed cables in real life or were they a rubber coated electrical cable? I can find no refs that say what the material was.
Now I need to work on the windlass and vent fixtures for Deck "E".

I also have never seen any information on the outside electrical cables. In my drawings I use a copper colour, but I am going to change it when I get time. I am thinking more like either:

Rubber with hemp filler fabric cord

Or

Rubber with spiral wrapping

I am also planning to redraw some of the under deck piping in it original galvanized colours.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #15 on: 29 Dec , 2011, 18:19 »
Great job Chris! The colour looks fine to me but I would give it a brown/black wash to darken it a bit but that's just me. Could you tell me what are those "black boxes" on deck E?
Happy New Year!

The 'Black boxes' are waterproof electrical cable junction boxes for the GHG.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #16 on: 29 Dec , 2011, 18:40 »
Quote
The 'Black boxes' are waterproof electrical cable junction boxes for the GHG.
There is a fine paper about GHG equipment at http://www.cdvandt.org/GHG1996.pdf
It references pre-amplifiers, which I think may live inside the waterproof junction boxes. It also explains, if you follow through the entire paper, why the GHG was placed where it was on a U-boat - Interesting stuff!
Christopher

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #17 on: 30 Dec , 2011, 00:21 »
Hi

Quote
The 'Black boxes' are waterproof electrical cable junction boxes for the GHG.
There is a fine paper about GHG equipment at http://www.cdvandt.org/GHG1996.pdf
It references pre-amplifiers, which I think may live inside the waterproof junction boxes.

You can view also the following documents:
http://www.cdvandt.org/GHG-AN301-Beschreibung.pdf
http://www.cdvandt.org/GHG-AN301-Anlagen-bmp.pdf

They say, that pre-amplifiers (Vorverst

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #18 on: 30 Dec , 2011, 06:17 »
Thanks to Maciek and Simon both for clarification! I am always looking for more documents like those that are primary sources! My German is improving also! So, would those junction boxes, given that the wartime materials restrictions were in place, would they have been steel, aluminum, or even possibly Bakelite?

On my model I painted them black arbitrarily but if we know what material the were I will change the coloring accordingly.

As always, gentlemen, I thank you for your input.
Cheers
Christopher

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #19 on: 30 Dec , 2011, 11:48 »
I would believe the German
« Last Edit: 30 Dec , 2011, 21:51 by NZSnowman »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #20 on: 30 Dec , 2011, 21:40 »
I would tend to agree with you. Perhaps I shall render the boxes slightly more metallic.
I think I will also rubberize my soft electrical cables, but will keep the hard conduit bronze or galvanized.
Since we know that every air line and interior electrical lines had color codes, is there any known color coding on exterior wiring and exterior plumbing? Not that small marks would be easy to see at 1/35th scale, but it would be good to know.
Cheers
Christopher

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #21 on: 30 Dec , 2011, 21:50 »
We believe no colour coding on the exterior piping.

I would say hard conduit, bronze between 1939 to 1943 after 1943 galvanized for sure!

I not sure about the electrical lines being color codes :-\ Have you got some information on this ???

Each mark is at least 150 mm long (so that 4.3 mm for your boat), and where a second color banding is provided, banding consists of one section of basic color 60 mm long at each end, with intermediate bands as necessary, each of which is 30 mm  long.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #22 on: 31 Dec , 2011, 13:04 »
Quote
I not sure about the electrical lines being color codes


Hmm. I thought I read in the U570 report, or some similar document about electrical lines being color coded also, but I might be mistaken.

Perhaps it was that the electrical fuse boxes and junctions were labeled extensively. I will see if I can fund where I saw (or think I saw) ref.

Till then, Pr

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #23 on: 31 Dec , 2011, 13:32 »
I know that were is a letter code on the electrical boxes e.g "Gr 4" or "Li 2b" etc...

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #24 on: 01 Jan , 2012, 05:27 »
Fantabuolous Work! am following the progresses with utmost interest... and love the team work with the other, incredible, brains of the forum!
well done keep it up am speechless!
SG

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #25 on: 02 Jan , 2012, 16:28 »
So Here is a little more work.
This is either a close-up of Shatner's third season hair plugs, or it is the GHG I am installing. :-)

As you can tell I used an Arizona Tea Can for the skin. This seems to work well, and "Oil Canning"
should be interesting.
I drilled out the holes for the GHG sensors and then, after careful filing with a round needle file,
inserted them into the holes. A drop of thin CA secured them. From the outboard side, I lightly sanded
the face of the sensors to make them flush with the skin.
Also added bolts to the tubes to hold in the tube liner.


.
As you can see I am starting to add some texture to the tubes and end cap for the Druckkorper.
I will also need a comb and some good conditioner to straighten out the hair!

.
Here is the GHG dry- fit, looking outward from the inside of the boat to the Stbd side.

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The cut off point for this plate is the stringer. Two of the GHG sit above this stringer, so will be added afterwards.

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This is showing the chain locker, the Arizona Skin

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The major sections are still in a dry fit status, but I am to the point where I am going to start attaching things permanently to the keel.
I will have to lay in the lubrication lines for the tubes, and finish placing the bolt heads and flanges, and some other details.
Then I will fix the tubes and chain locker to Frame 106.
Then Deck E...
then Stringer #3..., then the GHG leads to Deck E...
then...
...then...
Cheers
Christopher
« Last Edit: 02 Jan , 2012, 16:34 by TopherVIIC »

bracco_n

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #26 on: 02 Jan , 2012, 18:40 »
I'm so exited with this build! Astonishing work!

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #27 on: 02 Jan , 2012, 23:25 »
spectacular...you're crazy, but your work is spectacular!
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TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #28 on: 04 Jan , 2012, 17:21 »
Quick question Gents -
The 90 degree vent for Tauchzelle 5, on Deck "E"  -
Is it a single piece cast iron construction, galvanized smooth steel, or is it made of wedge shaped (tubular) sections, like modern tin ductwork?
I am working on that section for my boat, and can find no refs for the material and construction.
Also, about the red oval encircled area - does anyone know if that "I" girder that the mechanism to open the vent goes from Bbd to Stbd Frames, or is it a separate mount?
Will post pics in the near future of the progress, but it would be helpful if anyone has this info.



Thanks!
Cheers!
Christopher

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #29 on: 04 Jan , 2012, 17:31 »
I have never seen any drawing, plans or a pictures of this vent :-(

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #30 on: 04 Jan , 2012, 20:10 »
Well, here is a start on the Deck "E" machinery - The chain is just taped in and will get replaced when I can find an appropriate version.
I made the vent with sculpey, and the windlass with tank parts and plastic bits.
These colors are just proxies (for everything) I will do final paint and weathering as more gets built. :-)





Have to go to the dentist tomorrow morning, so I am off to bed.
Cheers
Christopher.
« Last Edit: 04 Jan , 2012, 20:12 by TopherVIIC »

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #31 on: 05 Jan , 2012, 00:11 »
looking good...hope you take care of your build team
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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #32 on: 05 Jan , 2012, 12:13 »
Hi Christopher

I not sure if you seen this link before, I posted it a few years back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/museenavaldequebec/sets/72157624710763308/

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #33 on: 05 Jan , 2012, 12:50 »
I just saw links to that on the u-historia site a half hour ago! Thanks! Interesting indeed! Does she dive?

Offline Greif

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #34 on: 11 Jan , 2012, 00:57 »
The beautiful work continues!  Very very well executed thus far Chris.
 
Ernest

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #35 on: 11 Jan , 2012, 14:14 »
I very much appreciate the kudos and positive reenforcement from all of you gentlemen! Thanks!
I also will take this moment to say that if any of you have ideas, or suggestions as I go, I am more than happy to send
these to the planning offices for consideration!
I am in awe of the combined knowledge that this, and other boards show!

So... Here is a bit more work.


The Allies have stopped bombing over the New Year's Holidays and my labor force has gotten back to work.


Bringing out the calculator, delving into the ole' trigonometry, solid geometry, and quite a bit of trial and error
with paper patterns, I have started working on the off-axis truncated frustum that is the skin and framework
wrapping the forward "Schuss VIII" of the pressure hull.


Here you can see the drawing I generated. I marked it for where I wanted my cut-out, and with scale 10cm lines
to ease the placement of internal ribs and external frames.



Here you can see the frustum and internal ribs. The ribs are made from .015" sheet plastic, which I turned into welded t-bulb
girders by adding .010" thick, .060" wide evergreen strips to the inboard edges. These are quite flimsy to handle, but as I built
each one, and added them to the inside of my pressure hull, the entire structure became quite solid. :-)
You can see the start of the air bottles that sit outboard of the tubes, and the rudimentary start of the dive plane actuator motor.


You can also see the thin tan stretched sprue welds I added to the ribs where they connect to the pressure hull.
This might be overkill, given what will be viewable from the cut-outs, but it also serves the purpose of strengthening the connection
of the thin plastic, and ensures I have no gaps. I do not want to give this boat's crew shoddy construction! :-)






This is the Stbd. set of air bottles. They still need plumbing and valves and support brackets, as well as beefy hex bolts.
Question to the masses: Were the air bottles on the boats painted a different color, as high pressure bottles tend to have
done to them in modern times? On U-995, many are currently blue, but I believe that is a modern thing.





This shows the frustum tape-fitted, and the general placement of the air bottles and dive plane motor with the tubes.
It is naturally starting to get cramped in there - but I have a lot more cramming to do.
I will add lots of plumbing and electrical cable in the "hole" of the cut-out, and will of course add the interlocks, control rods,
and other mechanical stuff for the tubes. Also, I will need captain motors and drive shafts, and the setting gear for the gyros and such.


I also will have to start painting these interior parts, and the details as they are committed to the model.
It is my intention to add interior lighting, as I have seen done in some very excellent builds.
It seems to me that getting the right shapes, reasonable painting, and logical clutter will be the key.





In the pic above, the red lines show approx. where the exterior frame work will go. This will further constrict the view
of the interior in this section, but I feel it will add a sense of realism - as if the exterior hull and parts of the pressure
hull "magically" were removed for our viewing pleasure!




The white, round aircraft stringer is just a temp to hold that section of framing in place for me, but will not be part of the final build.
I have to draw and execute the support bulkheads under the pressure hull. These cradles will be visible from the oval free flooding
holes in the exterior skin, so they will be detailed. You can see the white "L" girders I have in place that they will mount to.


Ok - I am heading to the airbrush, to get working on the interior base colors.
Ciao and cheers Mates!


Christopher
« Last Edit: 11 Jan , 2012, 15:31 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #36 on: 11 Jan , 2012, 14:39 »
Question to the masses: Were the air bottles on the boats painted a different color, as high pressure bottles tend to have
done to them in modern times? On U-995, many are currently blue, but I believe that is a modern thing.

I 'think' the top of the O2 bottles in the Control Room were painted blue, but I could be wrong on this, not 100% sure on this  :-\

It is naturally starting to get cramped in there - but I have a lot more cramming to do.

In real life it was real restricting in the bow, at the smaller scale it must be a nightmare  ::)

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #37 on: 11 Jan , 2012, 14:59 »
Quote
In real life it was real restricting in the bow, at the smaller scale it must be a nightmare
It is challenging, that is for sure. As I am sure you know from your work, fitting objects into places we think they fit into is not always as easy proposition!
Good work on the FUMO drawings btw.!!! :-)
Christopher
« Last Edit: 11 Jan , 2012, 15:01 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #38 on: 11 Jan , 2012, 15:09 »
 Yes, it can be lots of fun ;D I do not know how many times I have added a pipe or hatch etc... Then several weeks later had to redraw it because I can not get the next pipe I am adding to fit.

hakira58

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #39 on: 20 Jan , 2012, 07:34 »
hello,
 I find your work really great research in the details!! are also working on a Type VII U-boat and seeking documentation and especially the plans, could you tell me where you purchase your thee documentation for precise dimensions.
 thank you by before

 good luck

 Bruno

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #40 on: 20 Jan , 2012, 08:38 »
hello,
 I find your work really great research in the details!! are also working on a Type VII U-boat and seeking documentation and especially the plans, could you tell me where you purchase your thee documentation for precise dimensions.
 thank you by before

 good luck

 Bruno
Bruno
Thank you very much! I am glad you like it. The modelers on this forum have expressed appreciation also, which I take as great praise!
I own several U-boat books that I have found useful.

U-Boats, Illustrated History of the Raiders of the Deep by David Miller ISBN 1-57488-463-8
Warship Pictorial #27 Kriegsmarine Type VII U-boats ISBN 0-9745687-6-7
A single copy of the L

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #41 on: 20 Jan , 2012, 11:32 »

Good day Gents!
Here is some more work, and a number of questions.
I have done some work on the druckk
« Last Edit: 20 Jan , 2012, 13:41 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #42 on: 20 Jan , 2012, 12:18 »

Good day Gents!
Here is some more work, and a number of questions.
I have done some work on the druckk

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #43 on: 20 Jan , 2012, 15:44 »
It just gets more amazing with each layer
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

Offline Pepper-mint

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #44 on: 21 Jan , 2012, 12:08 »
Hello TopherVIIC,


Awesome work. I'm speeshless !


Will follow with great interest.


Cheers,
Pepper-Mint.
On the W.bench :
Books, pics, drawings, styrene, dreams and :

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #45 on: 24 Jan , 2012, 14:23 »

Hey folks...
As a change of pace, and to make her look less skeletal in the bows, I have a question.



I see this deck stowage box listed on every drawing I have of type VIIC and VIIC/41, and I see it referenced in a rough sort of way from the front looking aft in the drawing of Frame#106 from "Anatomy..." (The dwg is of #106, but shows the ghost of the box behind it.)
This box butts up on its aft end with the solid bulkhead at frame#102. It sits on the port side only, as to Stbd fixed to the bulkhead @ #102 is the valve and mechanism for the bow buoyancy tank.
(edits to fix wrong frame ref - sorry! :-) )

I would like to know more of how it is constructed, and how it is accessed from the deck.





It seems to me that this box, the anchor chain and hawse are inter-related, and possibly go through this box.


I would like to know how this happens! :-)
Do any of you have pics or refs that show more?
I would like to build the model with this deck hatch open, as we all know that open deck hatches make cooler toys to look at! ;-)


Secondary question - the row of small round drainage holes in that area of the bows and the structural work that supports the steel part of the casing on both the Atlantic and regular bow...


I assume those holes sit above the Bow buoyancy tank, or are somehow sep. from it, but that whole construction is puzzling.


Trying to construct the frames, the bow supports, our little Deck storage box, the bow buoyancy tank, those little drain holes and the towhook well, it is making me scratch my head a little!
It is funny, because till you try to draw that area of the ship, and then try to build it in miniature, one is easily tricked into thinking that part will be easy.


Thanks from a lightly stranded modeler!
Cheers
Christopher
« Last Edit: 24 Jan , 2012, 18:08 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #46 on: 24 Jan , 2012, 18:56 »
Secondary question - the row of small round drainage holes in that area of the bows and the structural work that supports the steel part of the casing on both the Atlantic and regular bow...

I assume those holes sit above the Bow buoyancy tank, or are somehow sep. from it, but that whole construction is puzzling.

I believe is this the correct profile for the Bow Buoyancy Tank but check with Maciek as his drawing does not match my http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/okrety/wyposazenie/zbiorniki-okretowe.html
 


... it is making me scratch my head a little!
It is funny, because till you try to draw that area of the ship, and then try to build it in miniature, one is easily tricked into thinking that part will be easy.

I have come to believe this part of the boat is one of the must complex parts of the boat. I have been working on my bow for about 3 years now :D I have found it better to go back to the stern and understand how that works, so I can workout the bow.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #47 on: 24 Jan , 2012, 20:28 »


Quote
I have come to believe this part of the boat is one of the must complex parts of the boat.
I agree with you ENTIRELY on that!


I am pretty much on the same page with you as far as the general formation of the bow buoyancy tank.
Minor differences - but ones we could not share a beer over!


On your drawing, where the fwd top of the tank meets the tow hook well is lower by a few real cm than mine, but I may be wrong. Purple dashed line on mine)
I have the girders supporting the Atlantic deck a little more sturdy towards the aft end near the vent and the back of the tank, but again I may be wrong.


I have seen Maciek's tanks, and I interpret my references I have slightly differently from him too - tho again I may be wrong. That's ok - more beer to talk it out!





The main question I have is about the placement of the 12 diagonal drain holes (black circles on my dwg) properly placed? That would make sense to me, if my tank is right. It would allow water to drain off the top of the tank, regardless of the open or closed state of the tank, and would also allow air in and out of the tow hook well, which I would bet money that it has drain holes on its forward most bulkhead. That part is pure speculation, of course, pending further research.


I also have questions as stated about the stowage bin on the port side. (Lighter orange on my drawing) I am not sure if you thought I meant the limber holes under the atlantic bow top, but the I meant the 12 diagonal holes visible from outside the boat.


Thanks for your help - I can see we are going to communicate frequently between us about the drawings!
Cheers
Christopher

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #48 on: 24 Jan , 2012, 21:49 »
The different maybe in the different bows. There could be three different dimensions for the Type VIIC

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #49 on: 24 Jan , 2012, 22:21 »
The placement of your twelve diagonal holes makes sense and you probably took it from better reference than I took mine, so I will probably change my drawing. Thanks! :-)
It is closer to the deck than I thought it was!
Now if I can just figure out the stowage box, and how it ties in with the anchor hawse and the chain that i believe passes through it.
For some reason my drawing did not load earlier, but it it posted now.


I would be interested in seeing the pic of U-250 you used for the engine work - I am thinking of aiming towards that boat. I know it was a VIIC not a VIIC/41, but at this point I can change my model.
Cheers
Christopher
« Last Edit: 24 Jan , 2012, 22:26 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #50 on: 25 Jan , 2012, 14:32 »
Hi both of you
I`m not going to interfere in you very detailed discussion on a subject where you have more expertise than me, but I`m posting my detailed photo of  KNM Kaura`s (ex U 995) atlantic bow at the time she was untouched by the museumspeople in Germany. I`m not sure if it can be of any help though.
Regards Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #51 on: 25 Jan , 2012, 14:39 »
Hi both of you
I`m not going to interfere in you very detailed discussion on a subject where you have more expertise than me, but I`m posting my detailed photo of  KNM Kaura`s (ex U 995) atlantic bow at the time she was untouched by the museumspeople in Germany. I`m not sure if it can be of any help though.
Regards Tore

Tore!
Hello! You are not interfering Sir! We are simply trying to sort out technical details in an area with little information! Every new photo or drawing we can get helps! Again - Thank you for your contributions! Join in any time!


May I ask How deep was that fjord? :-)

Christopher
« Last Edit: 25 Jan , 2012, 14:42 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #52 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 01:44 »
Hi both of you
I`m not going to interfere in you very detailed discussion on a subject where you have more expertise than me, but I`m posting my detailed photo of  KNM Kaura`s (ex U 995) atlantic bow at the time she was untouched by the museumspeople in Germany. I`m not sure if it can be of any help though.
Regards Tore

Tore!
Hello! You are not interfering Sir! We are simply trying to sort out technical details in an area with little information! Every new photo or drawing we can get helps! Again - Thank you for your contributions! Join in any time!


May I ask How deep was that fjord? :-)

Christopher
Hi Christopher!
This particular fjord up in northern Norway is called the Trollfjord and is more known for the narrow entrance rather than depth . But in general the depth of the fjords are max 1000 m. The depth of the fjords together with icywaterivers from the glaciers made it an excellent hide for the submarines. The difference in temperature and salinity made waterlayers which created a "reflectionmirror" for the sonar and you could registered the different layers by sensors. When you found a proper layer you placed the sub rigth underneath and shut off all motors so everything was dead silent. The trim could be kept by lowering and raising the periscopes into the other density layer using the accumulated hydraulic pressure,( no sound).
This was the ultimate excersise for CO`s of a submarine and many of us were convinced that the numerous observations of foreign submarines in our fjords were ideed foreign subs training CO`s  for this such operations.
regards Tore
« Last Edit: 26 Jan , 2012, 01:48 by tore »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #53 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 02:13 »
Hi both of you
I`m not going to interfere in you very detailed discussion on a subject where you have more expertise than me, but I`m posting my detailed photo of  KNM Kaura`s (ex U 995) atlantic bow at the time she was untouched by the museumspeople in Germany. I`m not sure if it can be of any help though.
Regards Tore

Tore!
Hello! You are not interfering Sir! We are simply trying to sort out technical details in an area with little information! Every new photo or drawing we can get helps! Again - Thank you for your contributions! Join in any time!


May I ask How deep was that fjord? :-)

Christopher
Hi Christopher!
This particular fjord up in northern Norway is called the Trollfjord and is more known for the narrow entrance rather than depth . But in general the depth of the fjords are max 1000 m. The depth of the fjords together with icywaterivers from the glaciers made it an excellent hide for the submarines. The difference in temperature and salinity made waterlayers which created a "reflectionmirror" for the sonar and you could registered the different layers by sensors. When you found a proper layer you placed the sub rigth underneath and shut off all motors so everything was dead silent. The trim could be kept by lowering and raising the periscopes into the other density layer using the accumulated hydraulic pressure,( no sound).
This was the ultimate excersise for CO`s of a submarine and many of us were convinced that the numerous observations of foreign submarines in our fjords were ideed foreign subs training CO`s  for this such operations.
regards Tore

I must say it was the first time I was more delighted to see a landscape than a Type VIIC ;D The fjord look very similar to NZ Fiordland.

Also very cool about how to keep the trim with the periscopes!

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #54 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 04:49 »
Hi both of you
I`m not going to interfere in you very detailed discussion on a subject where you have more expertise than me, but I`m posting my detailed photo of  KNM Kaura`s (ex U 995) atlantic bow at the time she was untouched by the museumspeople in Germany. I`m not sure if it can be of any help though.
Regards Tore

Tore!
Hello! You are not interfering Sir! We are simply trying to sort out technical details in an area with little information! Every new photo or drawing we can get helps! Again - Thank you for your contributions! Join in any time!


May I ask How deep was that fjord? :-)

Christopher
Hi Christopher!
This particular fjord up in northern Norway is called the Trollfjord and is more known for the narrow entrance rather than depth . But in general the depth of the fjords are max 1000 m. The depth of the fjords together with icywaterivers from the glaciers made it an excellent hide for the submarines. The difference in temperature and salinity made waterlayers which created a "reflectionmirror" for the sonar and you could registered the different layers by sensors. When you found a proper layer you placed the sub rigth underneath and shut off all motors so everything was dead silent. The trim could be kept by lowering and raising the periscopes into the other density layer using the accumulated hydraulic pressure,( no sound).
This was the ultimate excersise for CO`s of a submarine and many of us were convinced that the numerous observations of foreign submarines in our fjords were ideed foreign subs training CO`s  for this such operations.
regards Tore

I must say it was the first time I was more delighted to see a landscape than a Type VIIC ;D The fjord look very similar to NZ Fiordland.

Also very cool about how to keep the trim with the periscopes!
HiNZSnoWman.
I guess is that is probably why you call it Fjordland, we call Norway the land of fjords. The major difference though is that most of it is above the polar circle and during the cold war year a little too close to the related activities.
regard Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #55 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 10:55 »
Tore
I became a scuba Dive Master probably 20 years ago, and there was a point where I was "wet" more than I was dry in my life.
I have dived in tropical waters and cold waters, deep and shallow, and in all kinds of weather.
One of the things that I think a lot of people do not realize is what those salinity layers are, and how effective they can be.
One of the more interesting places to dive for me was where the South China Sea meets the Pacific. Two different types of water, and it was such that you could, just like a submarine, achieve neutral buoyancy and stick your hand in and out of salinity layers that may have been many degrees different. You could FEEL your hand cold, while your body was in quite warm water.


We did not have onboard Salinity Meters but you could sometimes see with your eyes water that seemed "thicker" - sometimes with more brine or plankton. Your hand could feel different temps of water.
It makes me smile to think that you trimmed the boat in silent running mode with the periscope and accumulated hydraulic pressure. Not only would the trim be affected by the mere physical extension and displacement of center, but one would think that moving a column of air that is inside the tube higher or deeper would affect buoyancy by its expansion and compression. Even a few meters of change can affect the volume of gas.


Cheers Sir!
Christopher
« Last Edit: 26 Jan , 2012, 10:57 by TopherVIIC »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #56 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 11:46 »
... and there was a point where I was "wet" more than I was dry in my life ...

Christopher, I am similar to you! I have spend more time in the snow, dealing with avalanches than I spend on a beach ;D Spend the last 23 years working with avalanches.

In fact if I think about it, I have been caught in more avalanches than days spend at sea  ;D ;D
 

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #57 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 11:56 »
I guess is that is probably why you call it Fjordland, we call Norway the land of fjords. The major difference though is that most of it is above the polar circle and during the cold war year a little too close to the related activities.
regard Tore

I think a big different between the Norway and New Zealand fjords is the rainfall, we have extreme rainfall (between 8 m to 15 m a year).  I live only about 60 km away from a place that get between 18 to 20 m of rain a year but where I live we only get about 2 m a year :D
 

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #58 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 12:00 »

Quote
In fact if I think about it, I have been caught in more avalanches than days spend at sea  :-) :-) 
Simon - I hear ya!!!
Me - I am not fond of snow, though I did do a few winters near the North Korean border, in tents and arctic boots.
And I live in Buffalo.
While we will go anywhere we need to, in general I think Marines are most fond of the water that is somewhat liquid! :-) :-D

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #59 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 12:49 »
Tore
I became a scuba Dive Master probably 20 years ago, and there was a point where I was "wet" more than I was dry in my life.
I have dived in tropical waters and cold waters, deep and shallow, and in all kinds of weather.
One of the things that I think a lot of people do not realize is what those salinity layers are, and how effective they can be.
One of the more interesting places to dive for me was where the South China Sea meets the Pacific. Two different types of water, and it was such that you could, just like a submarine, achieve neutral buoyancy and stick your hand in and out of salinity layers that may have been many degrees different. You could FEEL your hand cold, while your body was in quite warm water.


We did not have onboard Salinity Meters but you could sometimes see with your eyes water that seemed "thicker" - sometimes with more brine or plankton. Your hand could feel different temps of water.
It makes me smile to think that you trimmed the boat in silent running mode with the periscope and accumulated hydraulic pressure. Not only would the trim be affected by the mere physical extension and displacement of center, but one would think that moving a column of air that is inside the tube higher or deeper would affect buoyancy by its expansion and compression. Even a few meters of change can affect the volume of gas.


Cheers Sir!
Christopher
Rigth you are Christpoher. Deligthed to hear you are, I presume, a PADI divemaster. I myself got my first diving certificate in the pioneer times 1953 ( thru the navy) and the in the certificate I was registered as "shallow water diver" you would laugh today if you saw the equipment. Since then I renewed the certficates both as PADI advanced open water diver as well as CMAS. Apart from diving all along the Norwegian coast, I did (together with my wife) a lot of diving in the Maldives, Red sea, and Caribbean. My biggest hobby (and most expensive) was underwater movies and we were hopping around the world with 32 kgs of equipment  the excessive luggagecost was substantial. But you are rigth, you could as a scubadiver literally see "rivers" of water with different temperatur and salinity. Not so onboard the subs, it was sensors attached to long cables able to take readings at quite a distance. When the sub was in neutral boyancy you could ballance her at your fingertip (a small exaggeration),but as an example, we were 46 men onboard an prior to the claxon sounding for divingstations the officer on watch ordered: pump 400 liters from forward trimtank to aft to compensate for the movement of the men. I was usually already on my way to the controlroom at that order. So the the good old VIIC was ticklish but with some speed you could hold her within limits by the hydroplanes

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #60 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 13:03 »
I guess is that is probably why you call it Fjordland, we call Norway the land of fjords. The major difference though is that most of it is above the polar circle and during the cold war year a little too close to the related activities.
regard Tore

I think a big different between the Norway and New Zealand fjords is the rainfall, we have extreme rainfall (between 8 m to 15 m a year).  I live only about 60 km away from a place that get between 18 to 20 m of rain a year but where I live we only get about 2 m a year :D
 

Good heavens,  I hope you get it mostly as rain and not snow otherwise you could end up with some 150 meters of snow. We think 5-6 meters of snow up in the montains is enough.
regards
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #61 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 13:08 »

Quote
...Deligthed to hear you are, I presume, a PADI divemaste...

Tore, I am indeed a PADI divemaster. We could no doubt start a whole new thread based on diving (we are, after all, miniature submarines in that aspect, and have a lot of similarities with our bigger steel brothers!)

Quote
...So the the good old VIIC was ticklish but with some speed you could hold her within limits by the hydroplanes...

would there be times when you would have to hold her dead still, submerged? I would suspect that even single crew moving from compartment to compartment could upset the trim a bit.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #62 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 13:51 »
I guess is that is probably why you call it Fjordland, we call Norway the land of fjords. The major difference though is that most of it is above the polar circle and during the cold war year a little too close to the related activities.
regard Tore

I think a big different between the Norway and New Zealand fjords is the rainfall, we have extreme rainfall (between 8 m to 15 m a year).  I live only about 60 km away from a place that get between 18 to 20 m of rain a year but where I live we only get about 2 m a year :D
 

Good heavens,  I hope you get it mostly as rain and not snow otherwise you could end up with some 150 meters of snow. We think 5-6 meters of snow up in the montains is enough.
regards
Tore

In some part of the mountains in the South Island, they get over 60 m of a snow a year  ;D

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #63 on: 26 Jan , 2012, 13:57 »

Quote
...Deligthed to hear you are, I presume, a PADI divemaste...

Tore, I am indeed a PADI divemaster. We could no doubt start a whole new thread based on diving (we are, after all, miniature submarines in that aspect, and have a lot of similarities with our bigger steel brothers!)

Quote
...So the the good old VIIC was ticklish but with some speed you could hold her within limits by the hydroplanes...

would there be times when you would have to hold her dead still, submerged? I would suspect that even single crew moving from compartment to compartment could upset the trim a bit.

Yes,apart from the very advanced "hanging" underneath a different salinity/temperaturlayer an absolute dead silent condition could be nessecary in other places.We had silent running procedure which means you could hold her by hydroplanes at a very low speed, the VIIC`s had bad steelpropellors susceptible to pittings and could easely produce noise, so the safest way would be to put her on the seabed. All auxiliaries were mounted on rubber chocks and tools were rubbercoated. The crew moved silent around only when absolutely necessary, Das Boot gives an excellent example of this condition. We had noisetrials every so so often and each auxiliary got its "noise certificate" but we shut off all nonessentials including ventilationfans. Yes noise is a subs worst enemy.
regards Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #64 on: 28 Jan , 2012, 20:07 »
I am 99% sure that the way I was going to do the hp impulse tanks for Rohr 1-4 was not correct. I ripped out my improper tanks, repaired my welded t bulb druck

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #65 on: 28 Jan , 2012, 20:12 »
I have also figured out a way to add the detail I need to introduce to the visible portions of the Rohr as seen from my cut-away. Again, I will post pics tomorrow after trials.

Lastly, adding electrical cable in the various ribs, and working on air plumbing for the visible portions of all fwd tubes..

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #66 on: 31 Jan , 2012, 01:25 »
Hi Christopher

It look like that you may have miss a man hole cover on this bulkhead.


TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #67 on: 31 Jan , 2012, 05:32 »
Quote
It look like that you may have miss a man hole cover on this bulkhead.
It looks like the manhole you are referring to is about the same configuration as the one on "E" deck as far as size and bolt configuration. Where did you get that reference Simon? How high was it above the base of "E" deck? Do you have a drawing that you used to generate your image?
Christopher

bracco_n

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #68 on: 31 Jan , 2012, 09:06 »
These photos might be of interest to many of you:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/museenavaldequebec/4885344669/in/set-72157624710763308/

They're from the U995 model from the Quebec Naval Museum. Sadly I have no more information about it.
Nicolas

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #69 on: 31 Jan , 2012, 11:47 »
Quote
It look like that you may have miss a man hole cover on this bulkhead.
It looks like the manhole you are referring to is about the same configuration as the one on "E" deck as far as size and bolt configuration. Where did you get that reference Simon? How high was it above the base of "E" deck? Do you have a drawing that you used to generate your image?
Christopher

Christopher, you may have seen it before, it on the GHG plan spt 102.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #70 on: 31 Jan , 2012, 17:31 »
Simon
I do not have a whole copy of Spt.102 - oddly enough, I just have the lower half... from the tubes down. Could you post that for me sir? Thanks for looking out for me! :-)
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #71 on: 31 Jan , 2012, 18:42 »
Thanks Bracco! Good pics!

Offline Sniperonzolo

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #72 on: 01 Feb , 2012, 05:14 »
Hi

Your work is simply amazing! i envy you!!! great job.... loocking for your post

ciao Alessio

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #73 on: 02 Feb , 2012, 14:48 »
OK - Here is some little bit of progress.
Below you can see I started working on my Atlantic Bow Casing. I have holes cut in to it that will become my vents and the
bullnose and such. Quite a ways to go on it but it is a start!





Here you can see the casing profile, and a few more frames I have worked in. The long stringers at the anchorwell height are temporary.
You can also see the start of the new HP air impulse tanks #1 and #3.


Because the evergreen plastic "L" girders are so whipy they flex a lot - so I will have to be careful with my alignment and tensions.
Right now there are soft bends in places that do not need them, but they will get worked out as I go.
I made my Tauchzelle #5 and the tubes kinda grubby slimey - they will be the roughest weathered portions of the ship.
Everything else will be weathered in the manner of a military machine that gets use, but still has an L.I. who maintains discipline! :-)





Below you can see the start of the torpedorohr detail. I came up with a cool way to do the detail - I made a .005" rolled "sleeve" that fits the purposely undersized wooden tube, build the detail onto it, and can slip the detail section on and off at will to check for fit and visibility. When it is all done (I will be adding more detail, plumbing, and interlocks, and finally tube caps) I can paint everything the way I want it and viola!





You can also see the beginnings of electrical cables and clips on some of the bulkheads.





I am enjoying this build, but I know I will do many things different the next time, and I am sure there will be a next time!
My "after-action report" is likely to be about as big as the U-570 ONI report! :-)


Cheers Mates!
Christopher
« Last Edit: 02 Feb , 2012, 14:50 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #74 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 00:05 »
Christopher
I see you are busy with the forward atlantic bow details. Many people have been discussing how the surface of the forward steeldeckpart looked like as several kits shows all kinds of surfacepatterns.
I`m posting a photo below showing the details of the original VIIC/41 as on Kaura.
Tore

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #75 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 01:05 »
nice pic tore!

Topher, cabling is excellent, one of those details that 'sells" it.
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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #76 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 04:58 »
Quote
I see you are busy with the forward atlantic bow details. Many people have been discussing how the surface of the forward steeldeckpart looked like as several kits shows all kinds of surfacepatterns.
I`m posting a photo below showing the details of the original VIIC/41 as on Kaura.
Tore
Thanks for the detail pic Tore! Very useful. I assume those surface bumps were something like raised weld beads and not rivits. I will have to place them on my deck. That is the best pic I have seen of the actual surface of an atlantic deck.
Cheers!
Christopher

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #77 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 05:22 »
Quote
Topher, cabling is excellent, one of those details that 'sells" it.
Rokket - Thanks -
It is slowly starting to build up to the cramped environment that we are trying to replicate.
I am constantly working on my pre-model drawings so that I can fit in details as the build progresses, so I don't get stuck later.
For instance, I have the forward dive planes and their mounts in, and I have the drive motors, but it seems that the push bar between the two will be viewable from my planned cut-aways, so now I have to figure out how to squeeze one in place.
Fortunately, I do not have the skin for the chin floodholes in place yet, as that would make putting the push rod actuator impossible!

Among many challenges are making the decisions of what to include so enough is represented, getting them to look enough like the actual parts, and making it all look believable.
I am constantly raising my own bar as far as modeling skill goes with this project, but it is interesting in that each bit i get work done on makes me re-evaluate if it could be done better. Some things I leave that for "the next one" and some things bug me enough that I rip it out and do it differently right here and now.

I intend to finish the framing and casing sections in the near future, so then I can begin to work on the area of the actual torpedo room. That will have many challenges as well - like the curved torpedo compensation tanks and the below-deck torp stowage racks.
I am working on the drawings for them already.
I guess I do not pick "easy" projects! :-)
Cheers
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #78 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 05:25 »
Quote
I see you are busy with the forward atlantic bow details. Many people have been discussing how the surface of the forward steeldeckpart looked like as several kits shows all kinds of surfacepatterns.
I`m posting a photo below showing the details of the original VIIC/41 as on Kaura.
Tore
Thanks for the detail pic Tore! Very useful. I assume those surface bumps were something like raised weld beads and not rivits. I will have to place them on my deck. That is the best pic I have seen of the actual surface of an atlantic deck.
Cheers!
Christopher
Christopher
I think they were more like pressed out knobs (intergrated) in the plate rather than weldbeads, definitely not rivets.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #79 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 05:44 »
Quote
I see you are busy with the forward atlantic bow details. Many people have been discussing how the surface of the forward steeldeckpart looked like as several kits shows all kinds of surfacepatterns.
I`m posting a photo below showing the details of the original VIIC/41 as on Kaura.
Tore
Thanks for the detail pic Tore! Very useful. I assume those surface bumps were something like raised weld beads and not rivits. I will have to place them on my deck. That is the best pic I have seen of the actual surface of an atlantic deck.
Cheers!
Christopher
Christopher
I think they were more like pressed out knobs (intergrated) in the plate rather than weldbeads, definitely not rivets.
Tore
May be this illustrate what I`m trying to convey
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #80 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 06:10 »
Quote
I think they were more like pressed out knobs (intergrated) in the plate rather than weldbeads, definitely not rivets.
Thank you so much! I will test to see if it would be more useful on my model to actually dimple some thin sheet metal from behind to get the effect, or to use putty or some such to apply the detail to the existing plastic casing I have!
These kinds of little detail you are providing us with are outstanding! Thanks!
Christopher
« Last Edit: 03 Feb , 2012, 06:17 by TopherVIIC »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #81 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 07:41 »
Christopher, here the picture I used for my drawing, to working the spacing and size of the knobs. I workout they are about 50 mm spacings and about 10 mm in size. Rivets about 20 mm in size and spacing about 60 mm.



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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #82 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 09:10 »
Quote
Topher, cabling is excellent, one of those details that 'sells" it.
Rokket - Thanks -
It is slowly starting to build up to the cramped environment that we are trying to replicate.
I am constantly working on my pre-model drawings so that I can fit in details as the build progresses, so I don't get stuck later.
For instance, I have the forward dive planes and their mounts in, and I have the drive motors, but it seems that the push bar between the two will be viewable from my planned cut-aways, so now I have to figure out how to squeeze one in place.
Fortunately, I do not have the skin for the chin floodholes in place yet, as that would make putting the push rod actuator impossible!

Among many challenges are making the decisions of what to include so enough is represented, getting them to look enough like the actual parts, and making it all look believable.
I am constantly raising my own bar as far as modeling skill goes with this project, but it is interesting in that each bit i get work done on makes me re-evaluate if it could be done better. Some things I leave that for "the next one" and some things bug me enough that I rip it out and do it differently right here and now.

I intend to finish the framing and casing sections in the near future, so then I can begin to work on the area of the actual torpedo room. That will have many challenges as well - like the curved torpedo compensation tanks and the below-deck torp stowage racks.
I am working on the drawings for them already.
I guess I do not pick "easy" projects! :-)
Cheers
Christopher
Christpopher
When making your unbelievable model I am sure you are doing lot of reseach. As you now are busy with forward hydroplanes details I would like to mention most likely superfluous to you, a small detail. I have no drawings, pictures or documentation but in my memory is this: On port side was, as far as my memory goes, a transmission from the hydroplanes to an electric servomotor connectionbox ( black) in the fw torpedocompartment close to the fw pressurehullbulkhead,  for transmission of positionsignals to a repeater for the hydroplane operator. I remember this because the connection broke and the indicator in the controlroom froze.The hydroplaneoperater didn`t get it and was  sending the sub down. I spent hours crawling in the cramped space between the torpedotubes in the fwd torpedo room before I figured out what happened. Just a small but important detail which I presume you knew about and in that case I`m sorry for again to interfere.
Tore
« Last Edit: 03 Feb , 2012, 11:56 by tore »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #83 on: 03 Feb , 2012, 16:48 »
Purists may hate me, but one idea for the tiny bits in the guts is to be "representational" - ie the pushbar can be seen as a shape and a bar, obscured by much, so it only has to be "something" there. I found putting in my p-hull that so little was visible, the basic shape and a few details were all that was needed.
 
 Fantastic work, this is quite a project.
 
 anti-slip bumps - I'm certainly not only least qualified here, but additionally far from an expert, but I can easily see from the pic that they could be stamped as Tore says, or equally plausible big rivets. I'm leaning to rivets, as some of the heads look mighty "big" and "separate" to be stamped, altho hard to see with paint.
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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #84 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 00:36 »
Memories are not always reliable, and looking at NZSnowmans picture I have to revise my theory. You are able to see that the plates are riveted to the structure underneath (the flat rivetheads) however adjacent to the these rivets and even partly on the stringerrivets you see the antislip knobs. This eliminates that the knobs are rivets, and the theory of pressing out the knobs. The knobs must have been placed (welded?) after the plating was fitted, but they look very smooth to me.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #85 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 01:08 »
Size of the antislip knobs
It seems to me that may be 20 mm dia of the knobs could be a little on the high side. If you look at the picture below and compare the knobs with the boots of the men I guess they would be possibly more like 10 mm.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #86 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 02:51 »
Yes that right, 10 mm for the knobs & 20 mm for the steel plate rivets, was what I workout. I believe this style of plating was used only on the decking. The German

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #87 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 04:27 »
Yes that right, 10 mm for the knobs & 20 mm for the steel plate rivets, was what I workout. I believe this style of plating was used only on the decking. The German’s used a different style of plating inside the boat.


Yes you are rigth.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #88 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 07:01 »
Internal floorplating.
Down below is a small picture of what I as far as I remember shows the pattern of the VIIC internal floorplating.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #89 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 08:23 »
Purists may hate me, but one idea for the tiny bits in the guts is to be "representational" - ie the pushbar can be seen as a shape and a bar, obscured by much, so it only has to be "something" there. I found putting in my p-hull that so little was visible, the basic shape and a few details were all that was needed.
 
 Fantastic work, this is quite a project.
 
 anti-slip bumps - I'm certainly not only least qualified here, but additionally far from an expert, but I can easily see from the pic that they could be stamped as Tore says, or equally plausible big rivets. I'm leaning to rivets, as some of the heads look mighty "big" and "separate" to be stamped, altho hard to see with paint.
Rokkets.
Your two very good pictures of the bullnose is a bit bewildering to me as on KNM Kaura the bar framing the hole is not forming an oval(circle) but rather an U shape where the two "legs" are ending on both side of the bow as shown on the two photos below. ( May be we are going into to many details here?)
Tore
« Last Edit: 04 Feb , 2012, 08:25 by tore »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #90 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 10:22 »
Tore-
No, not too many details! It is good to have more learning and opportunities for learning than less!
To all of those who are continuing to chip in I thank you! You are all helping to make this build, which is my first ever ship model, quite enjoyable!
Cheers...
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #91 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 12:20 »
Internal floorplating.
Down below is a small picture of what I as far as I remember shows the pattern of the VIIC internal floorplating.
Tore

I am luckly to have several pictures of what was the original internal plate of U-995. I have seen it in the engine room, galley and CT. Now I am not sure if anything is left of this original internal plate in U-995 after last summer refit  :'( :'(

Were was a third style of plate used in the WC  ;D




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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #92 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 12:24 »
Purists may hate me, but one idea for the tiny bits in the guts is to be "representational" - ie the pushbar can be seen as a shape and a bar, obscured by much, so it only has to be "something" there. I found putting in my p-hull that so little was visible, the basic shape and a few details were all that was needed.
 
 Fantastic work, this is quite a project.
 
 anti-slip bumps - I'm certainly not only least qualified here, but additionally far from an expert, but I can easily see from the pic that they could be stamped as Tore says, or equally plausible big rivets. I'm leaning to rivets, as some of the heads look mighty "big" and "separate" to be stamped, altho hard to see with paint.
Rokkets.
Your two very good pictures of the bullnose is a bit bewildering to me as on KNM Kaura the bar framing the hole is not forming an oval(circle) but rather an U shape where the two "legs" are ending on both side of the bow as shown on the two photos below. ( May be we are going into to many details here?)
Tore

I think the different is the different between the Type VIIC's and the Type IX (Rokkets pictures) bows.

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #93 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 15:08 »
Internal floorplating.
Down below is a small picture of what I as far as I remember shows the pattern of the VIIC internal floorplating.
Tore

I am luckly to have several pictures of what was the original internal plate of U-995. I have seen it in the engine room, galley and CT. Now I am not sure if anything is left of this original internal plate in U-995 after last summer refit  :'( :'(

Were was a third style of plate used in the WC  ;D




Exellent pictures. If these pictures are of the originals U 995 then it is clear that the floorplates are aluminum and my memory fails. I remember the floor darker like the picture below. It seems to me that these pictures could be from the Laboe U 995 and they have done a lot of changes to her since the wartime. The colours of the engines was definitely grey and not green as on the picture.The pressuredoor to the controlroom did not have the fancy yellow stripes and dots. The tables were natural oakwood coloured framing, the tableplate was linoleum definitely not painted green as on the picture.See my picture of the  area from the same position in 1953 and ignore the young lieutenant. 
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Feb , 2012, 00:07 by tore »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #94 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 15:11 »
Floorplating in WC
 I cannot remember anything as to the floorplating in the WC, sorry.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #95 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 15:20 »
Purists may hate me, but one idea for the tiny bits in the guts is to be "representational" - ie the pushbar can be seen as a shape and a bar, obscured by much, so it only has to be "something" there. I found putting in my p-hull that so little was visible, the basic shape and a few details were all that was needed.
 
 Fantastic work, this is quite a project.
 
 anti-slip bumps - I'm certainly not only least qualified here, but additionally far from an expert, but I can easily see from the pic that they could be stamped as Tore says, or equally plausible big rivets. I'm leaning to rivets, as some of the heads look mighty "big" and "separate" to be stamped, altho hard to see with paint.
Rokkets.
Your two very good pictures of the bullnose is a bit bewildering to me as on KNM Kaura the bar framing the hole is not forming an oval(circle) but rather an U shape where the two "legs" are ending on both side of the bow as shown on the two photos below. ( May be we are going into to many details here?)
Tore

I think the different is the different between the Type VIIC's and the Type IX (Rokkets pictures) bows.
Ah! That explains everything . I took it for a VIIC/41, I`m not familiar with the IX. Thanks.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #96 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 16:19 »
well "my" bow is U505, so there would likely be differences...
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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #97 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 16:22 »
I'm pretty certain that U995 as she is now is wrongwrongrong...the yellow stripes are for safety (tours), and the aluminium plating is new. The pattern is modern and the old ones were steel and show rust. At least on U505 and in USN Gatos... aluminium was for aircraft back then! My 2 cents anyway...
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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #98 on: 04 Feb , 2012, 17:50 »
Internal floorplating.
Down below is a small picture of what I as far as I remember shows the pattern of the VIIC internal floorplating.
Tore

I am luckly to have several pictures of what was the original internal plate of U-995. I have seen it in the engine room, galley and CT. Now I am not sure if anything is left of this original internal plate in U-995 after last summer refit  :'( :'(

Were was a third style of plate used in the WC  ;D




Exellent pictures. If these pictures are of the originals U 995 then it is clear that the floorplates are aluminum and my memory fails. I remember the floor darker like the picture below. It seems to me that these pictures could be from the Laboe U 995 and they have done a lot of changes to her since the wartime. The colours of the engines was definitely grey and not green as on the picture.The pressuredoor to the controlroom did not have the fancy yellow stripes and dots. The tables were natural oakwood coloured legs and framing, the tableplate was linoleum definitely not painted blue as on the picture.See my picture of the  area from the same position in 1953 and ignore the young lieutenant. 
Tore

Tore you are not losing you mind! The aluminum floorplates are from last summer refit  :'( :'( Very sad!

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #99 on: 05 Feb , 2012, 00:22 »
I'm pretty certain that U995 as she is now is wrongwrongrong...the yellow stripes are for safety (tours), and the aluminium plating is new. The pattern is modern and the old ones were steel and show rust. At least on U505 and in USN Gatos... aluminium was for aircraft back then! My 2 cents anyway...
I think you are rigth. I believe today U 995 is more a tourist thing rather than a correct restored U-995/41 . To my opinion it`s a pitty they have made all the incorrect changes, both to the casing as well as the interior colours. As have been mentioned before, modellers should be very careful in using her as a reference they way she look today.
Tore 

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #100 on: 05 Feb , 2012, 00:29 »
NZSnowman. That was a relief I thougth for a moment it was Alzheimer ligth.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #101 on: 07 Feb , 2012, 15:56 »
Here is the progress I made last night, and today...


Below you can see I added an indication of the forward dive plane pushbar and mechanism gland,,, I also added a few more of the forward frames to complete the sealing end of the tauchzell. Now I can add in the remaining forward frames.





Below you can see that I have started on the undercasing parts for the atlantiksteven, and will soon lay in the plates forming the bow buoyancy tank, and will have to build in the tow hook and tow hook well after I do the tank plate..
Behind it I have built in my deck stowage locker on the Bb side.
I have added a mechanism for the vent, as well as a top grating for the same through the bow casing. I painted my vent mechanism bronze, since it seems to me it should not be a part that is prone to rust, but if there is anyone who knows what the vent was constructed from, I can change that.
You can also see the grand layout for the torpedo lubrication lines for tubes I - IV. I am slightly worried that I made these lines a little too heavy, but it does not look bad to me. Again, base coated them as bronze, but will probably tint them to be copper.





Below you can see the lube lines a little better, including the access boxes and nibs, and the anchor chain.
Now I can secure the ends of the GHG cables to their through-deck plugs. Just visible is the vent for the bow buoyancy tank on the topside of the deck.
I also made the bolts visible in the "E"Deck access hatch stainless steel, so the crew will not have to worry about rusted out bolts! :-)
Simon - Were you able to find a reference I could look at for the missing manhole you mentioned I should put in? I can find no reference in any of my material.





I will have to put in the mechanism for the main vent for the tauchzelle and the actuating universal joints, but that is still a ways down the line yet.
Well, I am off to build a few more frames till the Wife comes home.
Cheers!
Christopher


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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #102 on: 08 Feb , 2012, 01:01 »
Here is the progress I made last night, and today...


Below you can see I added an indication of the forward dive plane pushbar and mechanism gland,,, I also added a few more of the forward frames to complete the sealing end of the tauchzell. Now I can add in the remaining forward frames.





Below you can see that I have started on the undercasing parts for the atlantiksteven, and will soon lay in the plates forming the bow buoyancy tank, and will have to build in the tow hook and tow hook well after I do the tank plate..
Behind it I have built in my deck stowage locker on the Bb side.
I have added a mechanism for the vent, as well as a top grating for the same through the bow casing. I painted my vent mechanism bronze, since it seems to me it should not be a part that is prone to rust, but if there is anyone who knows what the vent was constructed from, I can change that.
You can also see the grand layout for the torpedo lubrication lines for tubes I - IV. I am slightly worried that I made these lines a little too heavy, but it does not look bad to me. Again, base coated them as bronze, but will probably tint them to be copper.





Below you can see the lube lines a little better, including the access boxes and nibs, and the anchor chain.
Now I can secure the ends of the GHG cables to their through-deck plugs. Just visible is the vent for the bow buoyancy tank on the topside of the deck.
I also made the bolts visible in the "E"Deck access hatch stainless steel, so the crew will not have to worry about rusted out bolts! :-)
Simon - Were you able to find a reference I could look at for the missing manhole you mentioned I should put in? I can find no reference in any of my material.





I will have to put in the mechanism for the main vent for the tauchzelle and the actuating universal joints, but that is still a ways down the line yet.
Well, I am off to build a few more frames till the Wife comes home.
Cheers!
Christopher


Christopher
You are really going into details.
Hydroplane pullrods and ventrods. I don`think they were of bronze, the germans didn`t use that so much. For important parts, bronze didn`t have the tensile strength I would suggest dark grey/ black painted steel. The grease pipes look to me a little on the big side to me.
Internal surfaces in closed area like ballasttanks were painted in my time with zincchromate, a brigth yellow colour, was never seen from outside.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #103 on: 08 Feb , 2012, 11:57 »
The man hole at Spt. 102 has a diameter of 650 mm.


 

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #104 on: 09 Feb , 2012, 01:39 »
Simply one of the best scratch builds I have ever seen.  Your skill and attention to detail is outstanding.  Beautiful work!
 
Ernest

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #105 on: 09 Feb , 2012, 07:37 »
Quote
The man hole at Spt. 102 has a diameter of 650 mm.
Thanks for the info Simon! :-)
I will have the dock crew down at the slipways get out their cutting torches!!

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #106 on: 12 Feb , 2012, 18:15 »
Quote
You can also see the grand layout for the torpedo lubrication lines for tubes I - IV. I am slightly worried that I made these lines a little too heavy, but it does not look bad to me.
I quote myself, and the more I thought about it, the more I did not like the former lube lines I laid in. In scale, they would have been over an Inch in diam. and that is wrong. So, i ripped them out and did them again, in a much closer to scale copper wire. As we sometimes say in the states... Mo better! :-)



I have started connecting the GHG lines and can get back to progress, instead of retrofitting!





Cheers!
Christopher

« Last Edit: 12 Feb , 2012, 18:17 by TopherVIIC »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #107 on: 12 Feb , 2012, 19:31 »
Hi Christopher

Looking good! I am also updating all my wiring in the bow section. I was update my high pressure air bottles today and relooked at the bow air bottle, and decide to rework the support.  I have added a cradle to hold the bottle, as my previous support I believe would not be strong enough. Below is a half drawing to show you what I am talking about.
 
Also noted that you are miss the T. tubes support below.
 



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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #108 on: 12 Feb , 2012, 20:27 »
[img]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3367/nedd.jpg[\img]
Wow! Good pic. I sure wish I had that photo way back when I restarted this build...

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #109 on: 12 Feb , 2012, 23:55 »
Quote
You can also see the grand layout for the torpedo lubrication lines for tubes I - IV. I am slightly worried that I made these lines a little too heavy, but it does not look bad to me.
I quote myself, and the more I thought about it, the more I did not like the former lube lines I laid in. In scale, they would have been over an Inch in diam. and that is wrong. So, i ripped them out and did them again, in a much closer to scale copper wire. As we sometimes say in the states... Mo better! :-)



I have started connecting the GHG lines and can get back to progress, instead of retrofitting!





Cheers!
Christopher


Christopher
 This look much better both the diameter and the bundling. I`m not sure if you would keep the coppercolour. The pipes as I remember them were dark grey almost black.
Tore

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #110 on: 14 Feb , 2012, 00:22 »
ya, they look nice
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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #111 on: 21 Feb , 2012, 19:54 »
Hiya folks...
Starting to do some work on the Druckk

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #112 on: 22 Feb , 2012, 01:13 »
Christopher
I`m still amazed by the effort you put in making the details of your model. To refresh my memory I had a look into the Laboe  U 995 and apart from the modern ligthplants and fittings which are easy to track I think the original ligths which are enclosed in the glass- and metalcovers are pretty much the same as the originals. The wiring looks like the original and the wiringsystem was two independent ringmains.
All the vital ligths were protected the way it`s shown. The reason for the protection I presume, was that electrical bulbs were the first to burst at depthchargeattack, spraying brokenglass all over the place.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #113 on: 22 Feb , 2012, 01:53 »
Hi


The boat's lighting system is shortly described here (page 185, Power load for boat purposes.):
http://uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm
and illustrated here:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INTPlan8.htm
Similary as Tore, I also believe that electric lamps in U-995 are in theirs original locations - the number and designation
of distribution boxes overlap with these on the diagram.
In free time I can post how many lamps I have counted.


--
Regards
Maciek
« Last Edit: 22 Feb , 2012, 01:56 by SnakeDoc »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #114 on: 22 Feb , 2012, 10:23 »
Tore and Maciek,
Thanks both for the info. I see in the "Manual" that:
Quote
For that reason there are 8 automatically switched on battery powered emergency lamps, 9 mountings for battery powered hand lamps and 8 battery powered hand lamps located as follows: Forward torpedo room 1 Battery Powered Emergency Lamp on bulkhead t D.Spt 63 and 1 Battery Powered Hand Lamp - Mounting between frames 69-70 on the port side.
also...Each boat is equipped with 8 battery powered hand lamps, whose location is shown in the preceding table.  To help with location, the power switch of each lamp is surrounded by a ring covered with luminous paint.
I can find the device between 69-70 with no problem, but am curious as to where on bulkhead 63 the device is...
on the kabelbild der licht I see 3 circuits on the Bbd side and 2 on the Stbd side of the bow compartment, but it does not show the actual location, nor does it show the colors of the lamps in place.
Will keep looking, but it seems to me that this compartment was not an overly well lit place...
Cheers!
« Last Edit: 22 Feb , 2012, 10:30 by TopherVIIC »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #115 on: 22 Feb , 2012, 14:32 »
Hi Christopher
I can find the device between 69-70 with no problem, but am curious as to where on bulkhead 63 the device is...
Emergency lamp is on the port side of the hatch, labeled with "Notbeluchtung", but without the bulb (only the hole for it).
Here is complete lamp in the E-motor room.

Could you point me the mounting between frames 69-70?


 
on the kabelbild der licht I see 3 circuits on the Bbd side and 2 on the Stbd side of the bow compartment, but it does not show the actual location, nor does it show the colors of the lamps in place.

Will keep looking, but it seems to me that this compartment was not an overly well lit place...
Well, I'll post my thoughts about lamps locations soon.
I also think, it was not bright room. Also remember about one night lamp (lampshade on a cable).


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #116 on: 22 Feb , 2012, 16:08 »
Quote
Could you point me the mounting between frames 69-70?
Maciek,
I only meant that I knew where 69-70 were - The images I have of 69-70 Bb have a big old stupid improperly-painted torpedo in the way, but I suspect that the device would be mounted on the druckk

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #117 on: 22 Feb , 2012, 20:16 »
So I believe I have found at least the port and starboard light groups mentioned on Kabelbild der licht, but I wonder if I am mistaken. The Kabelbild shows what looks like 3 lights on the port side and two on stbd, but if my photo is correct, it is the opposite.
U-575INTPlate8-C.jpg

What I believe to be true on U-995:
Bb side, overhead, between D.Spt 72-73 and between 73-74.
Stbd Side, overhead, between D.Spt 72-73 (see photo) 70-71 and 67-68.

Below is a close up zoomed-in shot from the http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5380 image. If you look at the Stbd side, you see what looks like the location of a light socket that mirrors the remaining one on the Bb side. Am I wrong?


Surprisingly (to me) it seems that there would not be a whole lot of light thrown on the torpedo tube area - where one would think it would be prudent to have some light...





(this edit added an hour later) Or... perhaps the socket is visible in the top left of this picture engranajescabrestante.jpg from u-historia. It would put light between the tubes and where I thought there was a socket on the Stbd side of 74 was my imagination.
« Last Edit: 22 Feb , 2012, 21:30 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #118 on: 23 Feb , 2012, 02:16 »
Hi Christopher


On the Kabelbild the rectangles are not the lamps, but distributing boxes. The lamps are connected to these boxes.
I have counted 9 lamps in the forward torpedo room: 5 port and 4 stb. In the tubes area there are 3 lamps (one
you have located at the image from u-historia), there are 2 more lamps just forward the tubes.

I did see the notes on the "nightlight" at the end of the report, but do not know where this would be wired into the room either.


I believe this lamp is movable and connected by means of the plug to one of the sockets.


--
Regards
Maciek
« Last Edit: 23 Feb , 2012, 02:33 by SnakeDoc »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #119 on: 23 Feb , 2012, 08:38 »
Quote
On the Kabelbild the rectangles are not the lamps, but distributing boxes. The lamps are connected to these boxes.
I have counted 9 lamps in the forward torpedo room: 5 port and 4 stb. In the tubes area there are 3 lamps (one
you have located at the image from u-historia), there are 2 more lamps just forward the tubes.


Thanks Maciek.
That makes more sense to me. I appreciate the input. Putting 9 lights into the model in this section will look nice. I may put hidden lights in to add "atmosphere" but will see what it looks like with the proper number at first. That is a ways off, though! :-)
Cheers!
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #120 on: 25 Feb , 2012, 15:36 »
I think you might have good luck with LEDs. They are about the right shape and scale size. They will be MUCH too bright, but you have opetions: 1 - use a cricuit board with resistors to pull down the juice, or use the LEDs as just "fixtures and light them with fiber optics... just some ideas, but you may be ahead. I'm just thinking that incandescent grain of wheats are like totally so yesterday. The LEDs (even if you use fiber optics for lighting you could take the fibers back to bright LEDs) will last almost forever.

Love the work, coming along splendidly, but getting exponentially more complex!
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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #121 on: 25 Feb , 2012, 19:15 »
Rokket,
I like the idea of using the led's for fixtures - some sort of brass for the frames around them and it might work well.
As for the brightness, I have an electronics store a block away that might have resistors. The only reason I was going to use the grain-of-wheat bulbs is because I have a pile of them hanging around.


While not an officially stated goal of this project - nor is it a gospel mandate,  I am curious to see how well I can build this thing - as inexpensively and creatively as possible.
While it is fine to throw wads of yen, dollars, ducquates, pesos and money in general at a model project, I think people forget that it is not always about that.


So far, my highest cost has been the Evergreen "L" girders (about $30.00), and a few bottles of liquid weld ($4.00 ea)  and a few bottles of paint.
The sheet styrene I bought in bulk at a printing house for about 10.00 - that was a 4 foot x 8 foot sheet of .015" Not a bad buy!
My torpedo tubes were going to cost me $20.00 if I made them of brass, but only cost me $3.00 in wood. They will look fine, but I may go with aluminum tubing for the next one so I can show open tubes.


I have learned a lot so far, scrapped a fair share, rolled up my sleeves and gone back in, fighting... I have figured out things I never would have thought I could figure out with this beast - and she is just getting started! I also have a growing list of things I will change for the better on the next one - things like making at least one out of every few frames out of aluminum or brass, just to reduce the plastic flex. I have fixtures and jigs worked out, and my drawings are coming along. I am even giving thought to learning to do castings. I need several pieces of plumbing that are not available in 1:35 - and what better way than to cast them.

The image that got me started on this build is at http://www.u-35.com/photo/Bau1.jpg. Something in my mind looked at the photos of the bare ribs and I said - "Hey - I can do that!".

I am having fun with the build, and I am having loads of fun learning from all of you fine folk.
Thanks everyone for all the encouragement.


The model I am gearing up to build is U-35 after Admiral Graf Spee cut her to shreds... I want to build her in dry dock, with her working deck and conning tower carved up.
What a boat!


Cheers Mates!
Christopher
« Last Edit: 25 Feb , 2012, 19:32 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #122 on: 26 Feb , 2012, 00:21 »
Christopher
You sure have choosen an original object, U 35 ( the bird of ill omen ) in drydock after the incident with Admiral Graf von Spee before WW2. The story of Admiral Graf von Spee as well as U 35 is certainly fascinating, a touch of old time chivalry warfare which disappeared later in the war.   But I guess she was a VIIA and hence you probably have to doublecheck all the VIIC infos.
What a task!Keep going!
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #123 on: 26 Feb , 2012, 03:10 »
Tore-
Sorry- perhaps I was a little vague... This particular model will remain a VIIc/41. When I finish her, and perfect my techniques, then I will take on U-35 as a second build. This is my "training round!"

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #124 on: 27 Feb , 2012, 00:12 »
Well you're doing great and all those things you said are what makes this a special project. We should all tackle the scary and expand our horizons. I think the alum rib once-in-awhile is an excellent idea. And you could always show just one tube open...

Keep it up!
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TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #125 on: 27 Feb , 2012, 14:46 »
Quote
And you could always show just one tube open...
I am likely to do just that, but will have to go in and do some serious (and careful) hollowing with the dremel tool.
I am thinking that I can open up the inboard tube#II or #IV, to show the back of a G7a in one, with the piston resting on the deck -
I had thought about having the crew running an eel into the #II tube, but I think I want to show the bunks down.
I also could open the outboard cap on tube#I or #III... That will require me to model a nose for a G7a in the open tube visible from the bow.


I wish I had thought of that in the beginning - I would have gone for the aluminum tubing. Live and learn.

I am going to magically remove both outer tube doors on the cut-away Stbd side, so you can see across to the mechanics of the outer doors to tubes #II and #IV from the inside (closed - because the interlocks will not allow my crew to open inboard and outboard torp doors of the same tube at the same time!)


I  will have to see where I can get some 1:35th scale G7a's - I know the Biber model has them.

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #126 on: 07 Mar , 2012, 15:18 »
Well Chaps, here is an update on the build.
I have been having the wood-workers at the Schiff-bau work on some of the internal cabinetry, and do some decking.
It took me three tries to get the locker-wall the way I wanted as far as the wood work. Here you can see the portable wooden deck on its scaffolding, HP air groups 4 and 5, the torpedo loading buffer, and the "wooden" locker wall.





Close up of the wood parts. I scribed in the pannels and made scratchy wood grain with very rough sand paper, making sure that the grain went in the direction of the wood pieces and doors. I used Artist Oils to get the modulated honey stained wood look. For the textured angle plate that covers the HP air groups, I used an old model railroading trick, and printed the pattern on paper, then applied and weathered it. For as much as it will be visible, it will do the trick on the finished piece.
I added edging along the tops of the wood where it hugs the internal T-bulbs. I need to touch up the oval slots in the lockers - these are just black marker marks for effect.





I will darken the working deck, but wanted it to have at least the base color of the cabinetry to start with.






I will add the bunks and such, and may open a locker - and I have much plumbing and wiring and such, but it is making some progress.
ok - back to the shop - :-)
Cheers

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #127 on: 08 Mar , 2012, 01:19 »
great cabinetry! really great details.
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Offline wildspear

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #128 on: 08 Mar , 2012, 20:52 »
That is some really awesome work. Can't wait for more.

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #129 on: 09 Mar , 2012, 00:22 »
Exellent Christopher. The colour of the woodwork is just how I remember it. On many pictures I have seen the colours have been too dark. The next step I presume, shall be "my bunk" stb lower bunk in the wardroom.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 Mar , 2012, 00:24 by tore »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #130 on: 15 Mar , 2012, 23:19 »

Progress:
So I just designed some 1943 KM bed sheets in Adobe Illustrator, blue stripes on white, and some medium gray KM wool blankets with blue edge stripes, and a white KM Eagle, in 1:35 scale. I printed them on 100% cotton rag paper, and took sanding paper to the back of it to thin it out. I broke the fibers about two hundred times over the sharp edge of my calipers in every direction possible, front, and back. I now have very soft, foldable sheets and blankets to place on my bunks.
I crunched them up a few dozen times, unfolded them, broke the fibers again over the calipers... and started gluing them to my bunks.
I will post pics tomorrow - but I am happy so far with the results. I have coated them with Testors dullcoat to even out the color. That is drying now. I am going to do a similar technique on the bottom of the bunks to simulate the springs - (no softening or major folding - just printing) just in case someone peaks that far under in the finished model.


Going to bed with a happy modeling feeling... :-)
Christopher



Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #131 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 01:52 »

Progress:
So I just designed some 1943 KM bed sheets in Adobe Illustrator, blue stripes on white, and some medium gray KM wool blankets with blue edge stripes, and a white KM Eagle, in 1:35 scale. I printed them on 100% cotton rag paper, and took sanding paper to the back of it to thin it out. I broke the fibers about two hundred times over the sharp edge of my calipers in every direction possible, front, and back. I now have very soft, foldable sheets and blankets to place on my bunks.
I crunched them up a few dozen times, unfolded them, broke the fibers again over the calipers... and started gluing them to my bunks.
I will post pics tomorrow - but I am happy so far with the results. I have coated them with Testors dullcoat to even out the color. That is drying now. I am going to do a similar technique on the bottom of the bunks to simulate the springs - (no softening or major folding - just printing) just in case someone peaks that far under in the finished model.


Going to bed with a happy modeling feeling... :-)
Christopher



Christopher
You for sure are going into the details. We had a lot of the bed clothes left from the ex. germanstorages which we used except sheets with swastikas of course. You have the rigth blue/ white colours however they were woven in checked pattern in such a way that one quadrangle was blue, one mixed blue/white and one white.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #132 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 02:55 »
Christopher
I `m posting a black and white picture showing the correct pattern of the bunkclothes, your blue and white colours are OK.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #133 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 04:49 »
Christopher am following your project with utmost interest: excellent work so far, cabinetry looks amazing! Well done, keep it upp!
SG
PS: go for that bed sheeths checkered pattern as wisely suggested by tore!
 

 
« Last Edit: 16 Mar , 2012, 11:39 by SG »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #134 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 06:47 »
Thanks Gents! I will remake the beds! I used a reference pic from Bavaria Studios that showed blue and white stripes. It will be no problem to come up with a new pattern. The image in Tore's pic have a larger pattern than the other pics. That will make for a more visually compelling image I think. I will make the blankets a little darker, as these dried a little close in color to the sheets, and I want a tad more contrast. I used a historical replicas website ref for the blankets, but do not know if it is "period". Any objections?
Christopher

Ps: the larger torpedoroom pics are just about how crowded I want to have my boat looking. :-) I"ll need to junk it up after I get the regular details in!
« Last Edit: 16 Mar , 2012, 06:49 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #135 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 07:10 »
Thanks Gents! I will remake the beds! I used a reference pic from Bavaria Studios that showed blue and white stripes. It will be no problem to come up with a new pattern. The image in Tore's pic have a larger pattern than the other pics. That will make for a more visually compelling image I think. I will make the blankets a little darker, as these dried a little close in color to the sheets, and I want a tad more contrast. I used a historical replicas website ref for the blankets, but do not know if it is "period". Any objections?
Christopher

Ps: the larger torpedoroom pics are just about how crowded I want to have my boat looking. :-) I"ll need to junk it up after I get the regular details in!
The blankets with the german eagle and swastika was never used by us of course, but we had dark gray blankets (I guess german) which were put in a blue and white checked cover (bag). There were indeed two different sizes on the checkpattern of which the larger checks were in majority. The beds in the center were more like a canvas stretcher and not like hammock as on UK subs.They were mostly stowed away during daytime (poor junior sailors.)
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #136 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 07:32 »
SG -
Is this a Type IX? The lockers are different from the type VIICs I have seen?

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #137 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 09:42 »
Hi Christopher
Is this a Type IX? The lockers are different from the type VIICs I have seen?
This is type VII - in the background, between the torpedo tubes, there are visible control shaft for the anchor/capstan motor and motor driving shaft. Such arrangement - with the motor in the bilge, between the tubes - was on the type VII boat's. Type IX had motor under the ceiling - just like U-995 today.


--
Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #138 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 09:53 »
Maciek -
I saw the motor and capstan drive, but was thrown off a little by the lockers. I suppose there were different versions of the lockers depending on which shipyard built the boat. Do you know what boat it is by any chance?
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #139 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 10:41 »
How does this look? Better? There are trim lines so the colors will go to the edge of the blankets and sheets.
I figure I should get thumbs-ups before I remake the beds.
Christopher


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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #140 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 11:11 »
Yep, Maciek's right, type VII! the picture's caption also states that, but the boat number is not stated. Locker's closing system looks different from the ones inspiring you, but i found it to be the same as the one in U-995 officer's quarters. By the way, excellent work w the checkered motive!
officer quarters

 
boatswain's quarter bunks
« Last Edit: 16 Mar , 2012, 11:35 by SG »

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #141 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 11:19 »
SG -
Caption on the Type VII?? I must have missed that one. Thanks - and thanks again for the thumbs up on the checkered sheets! It took like two seconds. I tell you it is nice in this case to be able to make my own graphics and print them when I need them! :-)
I have to find a bunch of torps, and at least some scale figures in lounging positions, but that should not be too hard.
Any ideas on semi-clad or modifiable 1:35 scale lounging about figures and or torps? G7a's or e's - I am not picky!

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #142 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 11:28 »
sorry Christopher, I was adding the 2 pictures but you were faster in replying! I meant the picture caption on the book i took the photo from, it just states that the boat is a type VII but doesn't tell which number is.
I'm more than happy to help, keep up the excellent work!!!
« Last Edit: 16 Mar , 2012, 11:42 by SG »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #143 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 12:33 »
How does this look? Better? There are trim lines so the colors will go to the edge of the blankets and sheets.
I figure I should get thumbs-ups before I remake the beds.
Christopher


Christopher I believe a fraction more white would do it.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #144 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 12:46 »
Thanks Tore -
I will space the stripe a bit. I bet you never planned on doing so much work when you joined this forum, did you? :-) Now we have you evaluating laundry!
Christopher
« Last Edit: 16 Mar , 2012, 12:47 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #145 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 12:49 »
Thanks Tore -
I will space the stripe a bit. I bet you never planned on doing so much work when you joined this forum, did you? :-)
Christopher
I`ll tell you it`s just like seeing an old friend again, just pleasant.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #146 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 13:29 »
Oh my.... Now this is real deal build! I love the details. Looks like i really have to buy that set of plans as soon as possible :)

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #147 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 13:36 »
Oh my.... Now this is real deal build! I love the details. Looks like i really have to buy that set of plans as soon as possible :)
Marko you`ll get the best VIIC model interior ever I bet. Looking forward to seeing the progress.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #148 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 14:31 »
Wider is better...

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #149 on: 16 Mar , 2012, 14:37 »
Wider is better...

Yes Christopher that`s it!
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #150 on: 17 Mar , 2012, 04:55 »
yep, much better!

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #151 on: 18 Mar , 2012, 15:24 »
Gentlemen,
Looking at references, and I came across a similarity of two flat sheet metal mounts - one on a flimsy bracket on the Torpedo Room side of D.Spt 63, on the Bb side of the hatch. The other on a flimsy looking bracket mounted between D.Spt 8-9 in the aft torpedo room, just aft of the emergency steerage column.
There is nothing on these empty plates at the moment, but it looks to me as if they once held the same, or quite similar round things.
My first guess - was they were compass repeater mounts.

There is one here:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo4.htm


Something that size could easily fit on those mounting plates.
BUT. the U-570 ONI report states that:"There were six (6) repeaters located in the ship.  Two were on the bridge, one in the conning tower, two in the control room and one in the sound room.  Repeaters are self synchronizing.  All repeaters were provided with 00 - 90 verniers.  In addition, the two that were located on the bridge, which were pressure proof (without covers), had in addition to the azimuth and vernier scales an indicator which showed ships heading in three digit numbers.  These indicators were at the centers of the repeaters.  Only one switch must be closed to cut in a repeater."


That does not match my proposed idea. :-(


Idea#2: depth indication? Both would be useful near emergency steering, the aft torpedo room, and in the forward torpedo room.
Deep-diving Buordon-tube type depth gauge (One in control room had been sabotaged but one in the forward torpedo room was graduated to 200 meters)."

Just thoughts
Christopher


« Last Edit: 18 Mar , 2012, 16:56 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #152 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 00:21 »
Hi Christopher


Good question.
According to the gyro-compmass repeater - on the page 73, section: compass installation, paragraph: a) gyro compass installation (http://uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm) is said, that one of two control room repeaters were moved to the aft torpedo room, if there were necessity to use emergency, manual drive of the main rudder. In control room were two repeaters - one near the rudder station (at forward bulkhead), and one near the navigator table (wall type) (both are missing in U-995). I think that the wall type was fixed mounted, and the helmsman's was moveable:
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo18.htm
It doesn't match to the mounting you marked in the aft torpedo room.


I like the guess, these plates are for the depth meters - with one exception - the meter in the forward torpedo room seems for me to be located to much aft. To indicate the depth, at which the bow part of the boat is, it had to have the inlet somewhere near the torpedo tubes. In other case, there had to be line leading through the whole torpedo room, or there had to be pressure hull opening near the torpedo room aft bulkhead (I don't know about anything like that in that area).
I have assumed, that depth gauge in forward torpedo room was located as on attached photos, but if so, I can not figure out, what was in the place marked by  Christopher.
--
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Maciek




Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #153 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 03:06 »
I agree it is a possibly the mountings are for the depthgauges, that was my first thougth and I have been looking for evidence. Maciek know more than me about the torpedoneed for knowing the depth,but I am pretty sure there was a depthgauge both forward and aft.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #154 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 05:02 »
I agree it is a possibly the mountings are for the depthgauges, that was my first thougth and I have been looking for evidence. Maciek know more than me about the torpedoneed for knowing the depth,but I am pretty sure there was a depthgauge both forward and aft.


Well, actually the depth was not needed for the torpedo launch/maintaince. The depth gauges in forward and aft rooms were needed because of diving differences for bow and stern when large trim angles (for bow orstern) occured. 





The above chart shows, that ie when the boat has 25

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #155 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 06:13 »
Maciek
Yes it was quite a difference in the depth forward aft at a 20 degrees bow down dive. The most strange view was to look aft seeing the big main engines way up in "the air". Another aspect with having the depthgauges in the forward and aft sections was in case of emergency escape. The VIIC has as known 3 pressuretigth compartments forward, controlroom and aft all fitted with escapehatches. In an emergency the pressure hatchdoors to the controlroom shall be shut separating the compartments, voicepipes shut as well. For escapepurposes it is important to know the escapedepth.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #156 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 06:53 »
Maciek. Your white cover picture.
I cannot remember having seen this in my time. I`ll make a wild guess. It looks like a small fairly modern (1960 model) norwegian electric waterheater
poorly fitted ( terribly wired and piped ) on the bulkhead next to the officers heads. I think it migth be a chance that somebody who was shaving when Kaura (U-995) was reduced to a trainingsub used his innovation to install an electric hotwaterheater for the officers bathroom. Take it for what it is, a wild guess Maciek.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #157 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 08:57 »
Hi
In control room were two repeaters - one near the rudder station (at forward bulkhead), and one near the navigator table (wall type) (both are missing in U-995). I think that the wall type was fixed mounted, and the helmsman's was moveable:
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo18.htm
It doesn't match to the mounting you marked in the aft torpedo room.
I found the picture of the second, wall type repeater - and now I really do not know, which one could be moved to the aft toredo room, because both look detachable...
(one photo was taken on U-98, second - present view of the U-995)
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Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #158 on: 19 Mar , 2012, 21:54 »
Tore has a point about the possibility of needing to know the depth of a compartment for emergency situations.
As a scuba diver, I know quite well that even only 60 feet of water between you and air is a lot of water, if you have limited air. The modern ideal is to rise only as fast as your slowest bubbles, but in an emergency situation, the actual panic impulse for a diver is to get to the surface as quickly as possible. That sort of panic can kill a person. If a boat were inclined at a steep angle, there could be several ATU differences in pressure from one end of a boat to the other, which could affect how much pressure is needed to open an escape hatch.
I also suppose there could be a situation where a boat was diving or surfacing and the torpedo compartments might need to know when it was exactly possible to open torpedo doors, but I cannot believe that the difference would be that far different and could not be read from the control room.
That round plate could be a mount for something as simple as a clock, too, I suppose.
Thanks for the ideas gents!
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #159 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 01:07 »
Christopher.
Rigth. The system worked like this. Each pressure compartment had an escapehatch. As can be seen each escapehatch had a "tube" protruding down in the compartment. In an escapesituation the " tube" could be extended further down in the compartment by either a canvas or sheetmetal exstension.
Then you flooded the compartment and compressed the compartmentair which collected in the upper part of the compartment. The people could breathe the air without any eqipment for a limited period when putting on the escape equipment. The first man escaping dived down to the end of the hatchtrunk and up in the watercolumn, deairated the trapped upper air and could easy open the escape hatch as the pressure was the same on both sides. The the rest followed through the water column. The lungs were filled with the subs compressed air and everybody were trained to whistle to let the air out while escapeing watching the trail of bubbles as Christopher said. The escape gear had even a "curtain" which you could pull out to brake the escapespeed. Yes you would like to know the depth in those cases and a depthgauge was installed but I cannot remember where.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #160 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 04:09 »
Maciek,
If you compare the Sbd side of the metal wall in the aft of the fwd torpedo room -the one with the valves- the Bb side metal looks cut away. It is decidedly something that was removed. Drawings show that as being a storage locker. I can picture the emergency tools and maintenance equipment in there, but the Bb side is definitely altered.
Christopher.


Sorry Maciek - had a cat emergency and could not post pic right away.




« Last Edit: 20 Mar , 2012, 05:17 by TopherVIIC »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #161 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 04:39 »
Christopher
If you compare the Sbd side of the metal wall in the aft of the fwd torpedo room -the one with the valves- the Bb side metal looks cut away. It is decidedly something that was removed. Drawings show that as being a storage locker. I could see the emergency tools and maintenance equipment in there, but the Bb side is definitely altered.
Could you marked the parts you are talking about on the pictures?


--
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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #162 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 05:54 »
Christopher.
Macieks picture of the red hand pump and "white cover" on port side shows pretty much how it looked like with a steel cupboard not going all the way to the floor . On the same place stb was a locker (wardrobecloset) for rain clothing. It may be the port closet was a stowage for hammocks but I`m not 100% sure.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #163 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 06:12 »
Thanks Tore -
Here is another question:
Is the way that the angled deck plating is finished here the way it was on VIIC's and VIIC/41s, or is this a later addition for the KNM Kaura or U-995 post-war?
I need to build that section for my model, and was not sure if this is right. It looks like original decking. I notice that the Sbd side seems to have a cut out section, but the Bb side does not. What is that cut for?
Also, what is the device to the left of the green valve and flow-meter? It has a black painted shaft or pipe leading at an angle into the deck, and looks like it might be geared (it has lube points), but it looks like a pipe leads into it. It is not on the Bb side.
Christopher



Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #164 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 06:31 »
Hi
Is the way that the angled deck plating is finished here the way it was on VIIC's and VIIC/41s, or is this a later addition for the KNM Kaura or U-995 post-war?

I believe, it is not original, but maybe Tore will confirm this.


I notice that the Sbd side seems to have a cut out section, but the Bb side does not. What is that cut for?

This is cut for the stb valve of the bridge-line connecting compensating tanks. See this discussion:
 http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg8324#msg8324


Also, what is the device to the left of the green valve and flow-meter? It has a black painted shaft or pipe leading at an angle into the deck, and looks like it might be geared (it has lube points), but it looks like a pipe leads into it. It is not on the Bb side.
This is angle-gear for the shaft, which drove the forward diving planes, when the electric drive/control was damaged. The shaft was led on the stb side to the control room, to the diving planes control station - on your photo is cut because of the entrance. The other end was led below the deck plates, between the tubes, to the coupling (which was control by means of low compressed air) and then drove the diving planes.


--
Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #165 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 06:54 »

Quote
I believe, it is not original, but maybe Tore will confirm this.
Maciek,
Do you have any pictures of this area on a Type VII? I have never seen one, and only got my picture from http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php


Thanks for the info on the angled dive plane drive - That is what I thought it was, but did not realize it was incomplete. I have seen that on other photos. Did the shaft look like the currently red painted valve control shafts, with universal joints at the ends? It looks as if it ran above the HP banks, against the frames?
Is this the angled bar I see running down toward Rohr III on Sbd side above the trimzelle in this pic
tuboslanzatorpedosdepro.jpg


Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #166 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 07:19 »
I have an earlier very bad picture of the floorplating fwd torpedoroom which is posted below, plus a cut off of the original plating pattern below as well, based on those photoes it shold be possible to figure out how it looked like because I cannot remember for 100% sure. As you see the centerfloor (hatches) is quite different from present U-995.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #167 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 09:04 »
Do you have any pictures of this area on a Type VII? I have never seen one, and only got my picture from http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php
Well, maybe these photos help - they are from Lothar-G

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #168 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 09:18 »
Great! I need more detail here on my model!! Thanks!
Christopher


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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #169 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 10:01 »
Christopher
I tried to make a better view of the floorplates as below.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #170 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 10:15 »
That helps also Tore! Thanks
This is a highly visible part of my model from the cut-away section, and can use the detail. I will have stuff on the deck, and crew and of course the bunks (which I am still working on) but the basic decking needs to be represented.
Do you remember if the ends of the angled plates, near the torp tubes frames 73 - 74 were the original German sort of polyhedral construction as shown in the pic below or were they added when U995 became the Kaura (or after she became a museum ship?
AngleFloorPlateEnds.jpg
Christopher
« Last Edit: 20 Mar , 2012, 10:21 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #171 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 11:18 »
I cannot remember for 100% sure and it is a bit hard to see the pattern on your picture, but if you can figure out if it match the pattern on the floorplate cutout on my previous posted photo then I would go for it.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #172 on: 20 Mar , 2012, 11:29 »
Maciek and Christopher
I`m posting a photo of U 995s fwd torpedoroom stb side where the gauge is mounted on the empty space you noticed. To me it doesn`t look like a gyrorepeater, it could be a pressuregauge (depthgauge).
Tore

vonbulowfla

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #173 on: 18 Apr , 2012, 20:54 »
if this is your first shipbuild god man cant wait to see your next !fine work my friend love the scale of 1/35 also i think it is a great scale to really go all out . 1/25 is also what i call builders scale !great work ladd cant wait to see more from you ! all the best ! :)
 
 
 
 
 

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #174 on: 18 Apr , 2012, 22:33 »
if this is your first shipbuild god man cant wait to see your next !fine work my friend love the scale of 1/35 also i think it is a great scale to really go all out . 1/25 is also what i call builders scale !great work ladd cant wait to see more from you ! all the best !


Vonbulowfla -
Thank you sir! :-)
It is indeed my first ever ship build (other than helping a friend with rigging on a tall ship). I normally do 1:35 scale armor, and 1:16 scale figures. I have never done a 100% scratch-build like this.

For this build, I never set a particular real boat - she is sort of a generic VIIC/41.
I am going to finish this bow section, but I admit I am thinking about the U-35 I plan to do.

I have a growing list of items, methods, and techniques I am going to upgrade on U-35, but I will learn as much as I can from this one. (I also have to locate good VIIA drawings, as I plan to render U-35 from stem to stern.)

Das ist meine "Schule-Boot!"

Take care...
Christopher

vonbulowfla

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #175 on: 19 Apr , 2012, 07:44 »
christopher ' again i say outstanding work and you answered a question i forgot to ask if you are going to build the whole type 7 . cannot wait to see more till then god bless and happy building ! :)

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #176 on: 19 Apr , 2012, 20:43 »
Gentlemen...
I have read on various ship structure reports that square cut holes in hulls were a bad thing. I have worked enough steel in industrial settings to believe this to be true.
This leads me to question if these rather rectilinear holes and what looks like rain channels were cut into and welded on  U-995, possibly when she became a museum ship.They look like added on rain gutters.
Tore's lovely portside photo of the Kaura  with crew on deck and Fjords in the background does not look (to me) that it has the channels, but the waterline may be obscuring them if they are there. Do you remember, Tore?
Christopher

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #177 on: 19 Apr , 2012, 23:15 »
Christopher
You are quite rigth in your assumption. The VIICs didn`t have these  gutters and square drainholes. I guess this is made by the museumspeople in order to prevent rusty bleeding down the hullside. I have seen modellers go to painstaking efforts to get these gutters copied. Again don`t copy the Laboe U 995 if you want acorrect VIIC/41 model.
Tore
 

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #178 on: 19 Apr , 2012, 23:33 »
Tore -
That is what I thought. I am working on the Bb side of the upper casing, and the frames and flood holes there and I wanted to make sure I did not put in holes where there should be none! I am quite leery of the current U-995, and am looking out for traps!

Tusen takk, Tore

Christopher
« Last Edit: 19 Apr , 2012, 23:36 by TopherVIIC »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #179 on: 20 Apr , 2012, 10:26 »
Christopher
While beeing on the floodholesubject, have you noticed the following: The floodholes rigth in the bow waterline is a very significant " trademark" of the VIICs, they are two on the stb and three on the port as seen on the pictures below. This was the case on U- 995  in 1945 and KNM Kaura up to approximately 1960 as well. However sometime in 1960 she all of a sudden got three floodholes on stb side, se picture below. This was also the case of Laboe U 995 in 1972. Then at last the germans did away with all the floodholes and not only that, they did away with the rivets as well and got welded  closed up casing leaving a very few original upper floodholes.
Tore
« Last Edit: 20 Apr , 2012, 10:28 by tore »

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #180 on: 20 Apr , 2012, 14:27 »
Square floodholes and gutters. I believe the square floddholes and gutters were fitted at the time they changed the casing to welded steel. As far as I can see on the picture from 1972 of the Laboe U 995 below does not show any holes or gutters.
Tore

vonbulowfla

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #181 on: 21 Apr , 2012, 15:49 »
great drawings are you going to make a set for each section of the boat ? that would be out of this world ! a great help! mate ;D

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #182 on: 22 Apr , 2012, 04:58 »
Christopher,
I found three more pictures of type VIIs (at least i think) torpedo room/bow compartment. I Hope they help to add further details
Keep up the precious work!
SG




postwar pic, scuttling charges being set :(

« Last Edit: 22 Apr , 2012, 05:03 by SG »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #183 on: 22 Apr , 2012, 07:34 »
Hi
postwar pic, scuttling charges being set :(

In fact, this is war-time photo, illustrating the training of the U-Boots crews.
These tubes are embedded in the model torpedo torpedo room and are equipped with all installation required to load, fire, flood and vent. These guys are german, not allied sailors.
--
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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #184 on: 22 Apr , 2012, 08:54 »
Maciek
I think the people are british. If you look at the lieutenant to the rigth he has the chevron  (stripes) of an officer in the "wavy navy", a Royal Navy branch for not regular officers temporary servicing during and shortly after the war. They have the stripes in a wavy pattern and  a regular officer capbadge with anchor and royal crown on top.
Tore

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #185 on: 22 Apr , 2012, 11:42 »
Thanks for the continued input gentlemen! I will put it all to good use! The "Wavy Navy" pic does look like a trainer rig, or a non standard setup as far as a Type VII would have... Where are tubes III and IV. I know there were some boats with missing tubes - could this be one of them?

I have unfortunately had a death in the family, so I have not been able to work on the model much, but I will see if I can post some pics tomorrow of the fwd compartment that I have worked on.  It is getting crowded in there! :-)
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #186 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 00:25 »
Hi


That, what Tore said confused me much. Indeed, this photo looks like trainer. The other possibilities:
- take a look at the left torpedo tube breech door labeled with "II". It indicates, that it would be forward tube with bottom tubes removed, but compare with attached picture (U-80 with two tubes removed).
- it could be the aft torpedo room of the type X B boats - these boats had only two torpedo tubes. Only two of these boats survived war: U-219 sunk by gunfire from the Royal Netherlands Navy destroyer HNMS Kortenaer (ex-HMS Scorpion) south of the Sunda Strait, between Java and Sumatra, on 3 February 1946, and U-234, sunk by a torpedo from USS Greenfish during trials approximately 40 miles north-east off Cape Cod, on the US east coast on 20 November, 1947.


I still think, that most likely discussed photo presents trainer, but the uniforms of those guys...


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Regards
Maciek


TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #187 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 05:59 »
Gentlemen,
What about Russian Navy in a German Simulator?
Could it be British Wavy Navy in a German simulator - either during the war after some of the German bases got captured or re-captured, or post war? It could well be post-war after final capitulation, done for the news-reels. If that is the case, I would guess they are taking the charges OFF the simulator! The rating does not look too happy! :-)
Their shoulders look way too high above the tubes for a Type VII, which means the deck is too high, and the plumbing and deck are quite different.
If it were the stern tubes of a type IX, the tubes would not have been labeled I & II.

I have taken the pic into photoshop and started digging around to try and see if there was anything in the shadows, but there is very little digital information there that is useful.
Hmm... We have a photo that is not what it seems...
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #188 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 06:54 »
Hi
If it were the stern tubes of a type IX, the tubes would not have been labeled I & II.


Right, that's why I did not take into consideration the type IX (as well as type I) but type X B (the mine layer), which was equipped with only two stern torpedo tubes. I prepared simple comparation:



Still I don't know what to think about this photo.


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Regards
Maciek

TopherVIIC

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #189 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 07:24 »
Maciek,
The Officer looks familiar! :-)
I have never seen drawings of an X B so thank you.
Christopher

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #190 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 10:22 »
The Officer looks familiar! :-)
I hope, you don't mind I have used your crew member :)


I have never seen drawings of an X B so thank you.

 The original drawing you can find here:
http://u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/esquemas/esquemas.html
See also:
http://uboatarchive.net/ManualXB.htm
(see diagrams at the bottom of the page).


 --
Regards
Maciek

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #191 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 12:29 »
Christopher, found another one which i hope you don't have already.




About the puzzling picture of the supposed scuttling charges setting, the pic is part of a sequence of 7 pics showing late VIIs being scuttled by polish navy during operation deadlight. I really haven't sufficient knowledge to know if the chaps "rigging around" the tubes are polish sailors (any idea Tore?) or not and if they're effectively placing the charges. In this case Christopher's hypothesis of the late VII missing tubes might be plausible. Another hypothesis could be a partially dismantled boat, deprived of anything valuable before getting "dumped", dunno..
Anyways, got 2 pictures of the torpedo simulator which i can post if u're interested, the mock tubes are paired vertically rather than horizontally (to train the future "mixer" to reload either the higher or the lower tube i guess). I really dont know if simulators sporting tubes "in line" existed..am really not qualified to answer the question.
(Tore: it's a privilege to have you in this forum, your expertise and deep knowlege of Uboots is a giant asset to the forum, almost unbelievable; Maciek "SnakeDoc": i regard you as one of the most experts of U-boots I've ever come across)
Cheers Gentelmen!
SG

 
 
« Last Edit: 24 Apr , 2012, 10:57 by SG »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #192 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 12:44 »
There are several other details beeing strange. The persons are not dressed in a british workinguniform (battledress) and have shiny shoes ( PR stunt?). The tubes have a very fresh temporary papersign in in german: Nicht

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #193 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 13:30 »
SG
Your theory is interesting. It could be they have removed the floorplating. I have not been 100% convinced that the second person on the picture is a Royal Navy rating it is a sligth difference as you migth see on the posted picture. I don`t known the Polish navy uniform, but for me it looks that it is a star on the top of the "golden angles". The smaller allied navies cooperated particulary with  the royal navy during operation deadligth and the officer is definitely a RNVR "Wavy Navy." If he would have been any other person but british (even Canadian,Australian) wearing for some reason a RNVR uniform, I guess he would have a small tag on his shoulder with the countryname.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #194 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 16:16 »
Hi


Here is a photo which shows, how german cadets during their training looked like.


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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #195 on: 23 Apr , 2012, 22:59 »
Maciek
That looks more like it and the "star" could be the top of the anchor. Then we have a new strange constellation with a german cadet and a british RNVR officer.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #196 on: 24 Apr , 2012, 13:23 »
I think I`m a little step further. The rating is possibly not a german cadet but a 1st class german rating. See posted picture of a german WW2 rating and next to him a person I believe is a german midshipman ( Cadet). So now we have a german rating of first class (specialist?) and a british RNVR leutenant, most probably a specialist. The polish rating is different, see picture below, so we can rule out the polish. I inclined to believe the situation is from May/ June 1945, the germans assisted to some extent in the demolition of plants and removing of explosive charges in the few months after the war.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #197 on: 24 Apr , 2012, 13:58 »
Hi Tore


Interesting findings! Below I'm presenting two photos of sailors of Polish Navy:

(crew of the ORP Błyskawica, around 1940)



(on board of the ORP Piorun, July 1944)


I think, it can be said, that the photo we are discussing about, is post-war (because of presence of the RNVR officer). The next question is where it has been taken - trainer or the submarine?


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Maciek




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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #198 on: 24 Apr , 2012, 14:25 »
Maciek
Nice pictures.If you look at your picture of the polish crew onboard ORP Piorun you see two persons with white caps, one is a RNVR sublieutenant, the other is RN petty officer. It was quite common the Royal Navy put liasonofficers onboard to assist smaller allied navies in 1940-41 and RNVRs were often used for that. Still it doesn`t get us closer to a answere to our question.
Tore

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Re: VIIC "On the Ways"
« Reply #199 on: 25 Apr , 2012, 07:37 »
Tore, your hypothesis of german crews assisting to some extent in uboot scuttling is right and proven:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/42460788?searchTerm=operation%20deadlight&searchLimits=
 
 http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Dits/Articles/uboat_surrender.php  (read the chapters "Operation Deadlight " and "The German Connection")

Look at the heads of the crews on the turret deck of (?)U1165 during operation deadlight (picture's caption states that the pic was taken from the deck of some polish naval unit): some sailors headgear look like german feldmutze to me..

Maciek, I know you didnt chose those pics of ORP Piorun by chance  ;D . ORP Piorun sank by gunfire U244, the stubborn boat which had broken off its towing line en route for being sunk during op deadlight..
 
« Last Edit: 25 Apr , 2012, 13:54 by SG »