German Torpedo Color?

[Scorcher2]

Greetings!

I have purchased the White Ensign resin torpedo set G7A & G7E.   I am planning on using one of these displayed on the base I have my nearly completed U-557 on.   I would like someone to please tell me what color the torpedo should be.   I have a color photo of all metal finish in a museum and have seen color line drawings with the torpedo in various finishes.   And knowing the Kriegsmarine's regulations regarding painting I am sure there wouldn't be too much variance on whatever finish they had. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[NZSnowman]

I believe the only colour they painted were Red & white on the warhead to show it was a training torpedo. Here are the true colour I believe, and the colours I am currently using for my drawing.



G7a/T1
Range/Speed: 6 km/44 knots, 8 km/40 knots, and 14 km/30 knots.
Guidance system: Straight running unguided design

G7e/T3
Range/Speed: 5 km/30 knots.
Guidance system: Straight running unguided design

G7e/T3

[Scorcher2]

Thank you for the very prompt and informative reply.   Now I can finally finish this project!

Thanks again.

[Rokket]

Dougie would know, but I'm sure they were a green (pale yellowyish) nose and polished steel body, brass fins and props.

[Pat]

Why not write or email to either the Chicago Museum of Technology, USA (Where U-505 is located) or theKriegsmarine Museum at Laboe, Germany (where U-995 is) and ask?  (Or even the Greenwich or Portsmouth Naval Museums in England?)

I've written to Chicago and Greenwich before and they were quite helpful and prompt in replying.  Museum curators usually are quite happy when people show an interest in what they're doing, especially in writing.  It probably at the least helps them justify their budgets.

As somebody who was in the artillery, I'd be very surprised if torpedos weren't different colours depending on the type of torpedo.  In the artillery we had shells with blue warheads (training), olive green (HE), red (armour piercing) etc.  It would seem logical the the Kriegsmarine would have had different colours for different types such as the steam or battery driven, the magnetic ones, the ones that zigzagged, etc. 

It makes sense to ensure that the crew doesn't load the wrong type and when the emergency lighting is on during a depth charge attack it would be even more important to be able to tell types of torpedos apart.

[NZSnowman]

Dougie would know, but I'm sure they were a green (pale yellowyish) nose and polished steel body, brass fins and props.

I think the 'green (pale yellowyish)' colour is commonly mistake for the torpedo grease they used in very large amounts on the torpedoes, but I could be wrong myself

[Natter]

I believe the only colour they painted were Red & white on the warhead to show it was a training torpedo. Here are the true colour I believe, and the colours I am currently using for my drawing.

Not entirely true I'm afraid...
I have just posted a comment on the colours in another thread ( http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?action=profile;u=388;sa=showPosts ).

Some details on the T1 apart, the illustration isn't that bad. The different colour for the aft-section (and the water-chamber on the T1) is wrong though (it should all be unpainted steel).
The yellow colour on the T1 war-head is presumably meant to indicate bronze, as certain Kb heads manufactured from bronze would have been unpainted. The rest of the heads shows a pretty accurate colour though.

[Natter]

Why not write or email to either the Chicago Museum of Technology, USA (Where U-505 is located) or theKriegsmarine Museum at Laboe, Germany (where U-995 is) and ask?  (Or even the Greenwich or Portsmouth Naval Museums in England?)

Sadly, most museums doesn't seem to have a clue... (both the U-505 and the U-995 displays show torpedoes with wrong colours :-| ).

As somebody who was in the artillery, I'd be very surprised if torpedos weren't different colours depending on the type of torpedo.  In the artillery we had shells with blue warheads (training), olive green (HE), red (armour piercing) etc.  It would seem logical the the Kriegsmarine would have had different colours for different types such as the steam or battery driven, the magnetic ones, the ones that zigzagged, etc.

They didn't. I don't have my documents at hand, but if I find time later on I might put up a list of the german torpedo/warhead/pistol combinations. All steel heads were painted light (or dark) grey, and some bronzeheads wre unpainted.

Comparing artilleryshells and torpedoes are a bit far off... You can't accidentaly load the wrong type in a tube onboard a submarine :-)  Submarines usually had one type of torpedo (or two if they also kept the G7a), depending on the type of submarine and the timeline of the war. There were in fact not that many operational types of torpedo: Only G7a (wet-heater) and G7e (electric). However, there were variants of both and especially many different types of pistols (mechanical, magnectic) - hence the list of combinations mentioned above.

[Natter]

I think the 'green (pale yellowyish)' colour is commonly mistake for the torpedo grease they used in very large amounts on the torpedoes

The grease would rather give a brown-tint on the torpedo. Mu best tip on the green "myth" is that many deduct this from the fact that US WW2-torpedoes where green ( a result of the "parkerizing" process - similar to the bluening of handguns etc.). Also, post-war practice show usage of paint to prevent corrosion on torpedoes (royal navy typically used green and bundesmarine used blue colours).

[Natter]

brass fins and props.

Brass were used extensivly on the G7a (the only "visible" brass parts would have been the propellers though), but as rawmaterials became sparse during the war, this was replaced by steel. The G7e had very few parts of brass.

[NZSnowman]

Thanks Natter, for the information!! I will update my drawings with the new colours. I have been collecting data on the Torpedoes, and was hoping to do a big update next summer on them.

Do you have pictures or additional information on the painting on the rudder to identify LUT II?

How the new colours, for the G7a/T1?


(Scale: 1 pixels = 11.94 mm)

[Natter]

Do you have pictures or additional information on the painting on the rudder to identify LUT II?

G7a (T1) LUt II: 100mm high green text "L II" on both sides of aft-section + green band on rudder.
G7e (T3a) LUT II: 100mm high green text "L II" on both sides of aft-section + 45mm wide green band on rudder.

See also attached drawing from the german LUT II manual.

How the new colours, for the G7a/T1?

The colour on the head looks more like bronze than the previous one (there were both painted and unpainted bronze- and steelheads though, but those painted were light grey). For the body it is more correct (unpainted steel). This goes for the G7e torpedoes as well. See also other comments on the attached drawings.

I have also added some info from german manuals describing the LUT I markings for the T3 torpedo, as well as the different markings for T1 torpedoes indicating if the torpedo had starting gear and/or a strenghtened engine installed.

I know they had several other markings (coloured stripes on the aft-section indicating different versions of the G7e), but so far I haven't been able to track down descriptions of these.

Most torpedoes also had two painted stripes on the airtank (G7a) / batterycompartment (G7e) indicating the center of gravity for an "empty" torpedo without head (see example from attached photo).

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter

Once again a big thanks for your help and the additional information! It

[Natter]

Natter, I was reading the

[NZSnowman]

Natter, I was wondering if you know if there any external different between the T5 G7es Zaunk

[Natter]

Natter, I was wondering if you know if there any external different between the T5 G7es Zaunk

[Natter]

Once again a big thanks for your help and the additional information! It

[NZSnowman]

Natter, a big thanks for the Google SketchUp-model, it been very useful! It great to able to see it in 3D!

Also a question for you, do you know if the interior base plates were riveted or Spot welded?
 
Fig. 1.  Interior base plates.



Fig. 2.  Close-up view of aft section.


Fig. 3.  Close-up view of the Mid section.

[Natter]

Natter, a big thanks for the Google SketchUp-model, it been very useful! It great to able to see it in 3D!

You're welcome. Just be aware that the main focus for this model was to get the exterior correct. Most interior details are simplified and/ or omitted.

Also a question for you, do you know if the interior base plates were riveted or Spot welded?

Welded as far as I can tell (see attached photo of interior), although I don't recognize those plates from any interior photos I have... There were several changes in the construction from the initial to the final models though (I bet you could end up with at least 10 models if you want to cover all variations in terms of engines, propellers, FAT/LUT and use of materials...). Rivets might have been used early on. I can't remember seeing any signs of rivets from the outside of on any torpedoes I've been working on though.


If you don't mind some feedback, I think you need to adjust the placements for some of the plugs on your model: The window for the angle-indicator and the adjustment-spindle should be situated right above the gyroscope (GA). The overpressure-valve is pretty much correct for a torpedo with a basic GA or FAT, but for LUT-equipped torpedoes it was mounted on the port side. Also, it seems you've made the square notch in the "regtelstutzen" plug a bit too large..?

I've attached a few detail-photos (sorry - seems a couple were rotated in the process, but I reckon you can figure it out):

[Natter]

Here is a drawing from the original german "G7a Bedienungsvorschrift".
The scan is from a poor quality print, but you might find it useful and a supplement to the drawings in the "G7a Zeichnungen".

[Natter]

the drawings in the "G7a Zeichnungen".

I just realized i didn't post the link to the online-version of this document:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/G7A-Plans.htm

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter

Not sure if you see this before, a picture of a T-5 with a copper head.

http://www.pablum.webspace.virginmedia.com/gaz/rvdv.html

[Natter]

Not sure if you see this before, a picture of a T-5 with a copper head.

Hi.
Yes, I know this site - thank you. The bronze-head torpedo is a G7a (T1). The torpedo in the background is in fact a G7e T11 with a Ke head (only 38 of these were ever build, and U-534 had 3 onboard), not easy to distinguish externally from a T5 as I  mentioned before. All Ke heads were made from steel.
Here's a couple of photos from Birkenhead where the U-534 is on display (the T11 under/after restauration):

[Natter]

Please check this thread:
http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=962.msg11947#msg11947

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter

I found some time today to make the changes you suggested. Also I added the Maschinenkammer section.

Welcome any feed back

Simon

[Natter]

I found some time today to make the changes you suggested. Also I added the Maschinenkammer section.

Welcome any feed back

Very nice indeed. It seems very accurate. I haven't access to all my photos and drawings now, but besides a couple of minor details I'd like to verify before commenting on, the only thing I'd put my finger on is the guiding-knob on the tail and the hinges for the vertical rudders. The knob shuld be pointed and the rudders are made in one piece.

I'll post some photos when I can find the time.

[NZSnowman]

Natter, how does these markings look for the G7a (T1) LUT II?

Was were any markings for the LUT I?

Was the center of gravity marking on all torpedos? 

[Natter]

Natter, how does these markings look for the G7a (T1) LUT II?

I don't know about the stripe on the rudder: The description doesn't say wether it's vertical or horisontal (I have seen vertical stripes somewhere, but I don't remember it's significance - might have been unrelated to the GA). Compared to the drawing the "L II" text should be slightly larger/bolder, but I bet this were applied differently from one arsenal to another... I reckon it's as good as you can get it, given the information at hand.

NB: Be aware that your torpedomodel is a standard T1 without Fat or Lut, so it's not correct with "L II" markings on it..!

Btw: The screws for the head seems different from the screws joining the aft-section and the airtank (hard to tell from the low res. image)?

Was were any markings for the LUT I?

I have not seen any reference to it, but I assume it was (maybe similar to the TIII - ref. the merkblatt I posted earlier).

Was the center of gravity marking on all torpedos?

Probably not... I have seen lot of photos showing no markings. I have not seen any documents with guidelines for this, and have no idea if there was a certain colour to be used.

[Natter]

the only thing I'd put my finger on is the guiding-knob on the tail and the hinges for the vertical rudders. The knob should be pointed and the rudders are made in one piece.

Here are photos of the guiding knob on the tail (unpainted steel) and a close up of the vertical rudder.

Also, I noticed your hinge for the vertical rudder-transmission (see attached photo): The only place I have seen this is on the german post-war (ie Bundesmarine) DM11 (ex. G7a) torpedoes. I have no documentation to prove it, but my bet it's a post-war modification.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter

How do those Pistols look like, Natter?


Pi1


Pi2


Pi3

[NZSnowman]

the only thing I'd put my finger on is the guiding-knob on the tail and the hinges for the vertical rudders. The knob should be pointed and the rudders are made in one piece.

Here are photos of the guiding knob on the tail (unpainted steel) and a close up of the vertical rudder.

Also, I noticed your hinge for the vertical rudder-transmission (see attached photo): The only place I have seen this is on the german post-war (ie Bundesmarine) DM11 (ex. G7a) torpedoes. I have no documentation to prove it, but my bet it's a post-war modification.

Natter, here are the updates that you suggested,

Thanks, Simon 

[Natter]

How do those Pistols look like, Natter?

Not bad, but there are a few issues... I'm going on a vacation abroad in a couple of hours so I am not able to get you much info now. I have tons of close up photos though, so I will get back to this in a week or two.

Just three quick comments though: The pistol is made from brass, steel  and/ or aluminium - not bronze (as your colour might indicate). It was usually (as far as I know) painted light or dark grey.

The Pi3 differs from the Pi1 and 2 by a different housing and method of fastening (it was an italian pistol).

"Kurz" (short) is only marked on pistols with 100 (black) or 150m (red) armingdistance. 300m (blue) was marked "Lang"


Edit - I put together a zip with a couple of Pi1 photos: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38692668/Pistols.zip
(I'll find more when I'm back home again)

[Natter]

Natter, here are the updates that you suggested

Yes, that's much better

However, you shouldn't loose the hinge for the rudder-transmission altogether...

See attached photos:

[NZSnowman]

Natter, here are the updates that you suggested

Yes, that's much better

However, you shouldn't loose the hinge for the rudder-transmission altogether...

See attached photos:

Natter, hope you have a good trip away!

I do not realise there was a hinge for the rudder-transmission. It added now

Natter, looking at the two pictures in your last post, the leading edge of the forward fin look curve not straight (Red dot line). Is this normal?

[Natter]

Natter, hope you have a good trip away!

Thank you, it was (just got back home a couple of hours ago...).

I do not realise there was a hinge for the rudder-transmission. It added now
Natter, looking at the two pictures in your last post, the leading edge of the forward fin look curve not straight (Red dot line).

Yes, you are right. The leading edge is not curved though: It's angled down- and upwards to allow for movement of the arm (the top portion more angled than the lower). I don't know how much without measuring though.

[NZSnowman]

Glad that you had a good time away 

I only have a few days leave of winter here, then a few weeks of writing reports and parking up, and I finish another ski season

I was wondering about a couple of things, why did the Germans paint the pistol? Also, would they paint the fuse?

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter
 
I am trying to work out the different between the Pi3 and the Pi1 & Pi2.
 
Does the Pi3 have a collar around the pistol?
 
Thanks, Simon.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter or SnakeDoc

Just want to check, did the G7e/T3, G7e/T4 Falke, G7es and the T11 all used the same propeller/propulsion/fins section as the G7e/T2?

Or were the small changes in the fins setup etc.. between each type? I had a look at a few photos of the T11 and it looks the same.

Thanks, Simon.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter or SnakeDoc

The different between the G7e/T3 Fat II & the G7e/T3a Fat II and the G7e/T3.
 
I noted that there a screw mark

[Natter]

Hi
Sorry for a long delay: I have been away a lot + have had some computer-problems keeping me both offline alltogether, and unable to log on here.

I was wondering about a couple of things, why did the Germans paint the pistol? Also, would they paint the fuse?

I'm not sure why they painted the pistol, but I assume it was for corrosion-protection and/ or to avoid glare and possible aid for the target to spot the torpedo in the water (running at 2m depth it would be very easy to see unless the colour blended with the sea).

I'm not sure what you mean by "fuze" in this context?

[Natter]

I am trying to work out the different between the Pi3 and the Pi1 & Pi2.
Does the Pi3 have a collar around the pistol?

Pi1 is a mechanical only (ie impact) pistol. Pi2 and Pi3 is a combined mechanical and magnetic pistol. Here is a link to the US Mine-disposal manual from 1945, where you'll find photo/drawings and descriptions (check chapter 3):
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/minedisposal/index.htm#part4

I have more info, but have a look there first - I guess you'll find your answers :-)

[Natter]

Just want to check, did the G7e/T3, G7e/T4 Falke, G7es and the T11 all used the same propeller/propulsion/fins section as the G7e/T2?

Or were the small changes in the fins setup etc.. between each type? I had a look at a few photos of the T11 and it looks the same.

I'm no expert on the G7e variants, but as far as I know, they all had the same aft- and tail section (of course, the internal devices like the gyroscope etc. could vary).

Note that the Lut-torpedoes did have expandable vertical rudders to avoid the torpedo rolling over in turns, thus getting off course ("ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen") - see attached photo.

I have some close-ups of these rudders as well (I need to search for them in my rather complex folder-structure though...)

[Natter]

The different between the G7e/T3 Fat II & the G7e/T3a Fat II and the G7e/T3.
 
I noted that there a screw mark

[NZSnowman]

Hi
Sorry for a long delay: I have been away a lot + have had some computer-problems keeping me both offline alltogether, and unable to log on here.

I was wondering about a couple of things, why did the Germans paint the pistol? Also, would they paint the fuse?

I'm not sure why they painted the pistol, but I assume it was for corrosion-protection and/ or to avoid glare and possible aid for the target to spot the torpedo in the water (running at 2m depth it would be very easy to see unless the colour blended with the sea).

I'm not sure what you mean by "fuze" in this context?

Hi Natter

Great to hear from you! Thanks for the information.

Pi1

[NZSnowman]

Early War
G7a T1, Ka, Pi1 Kurz
G7a T1, Ka, Pi1 Lang


Late War
G7a T1, Ka, Pi1 Kurz
G7a T1, Ka, Pi1 Lang


Early War
G7a T1 Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Kurz
G7a T1,Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Lang
Late War
G7a T1 Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Kurz
G7a T1,Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Lang

[NZSnowman]

I am trying to work out the different between the Pi3 and the Pi1 & Pi2.
Does the Pi3 have a collar around the pistol?

Pi1 is a mechanical only (ie impact) pistol. Pi2 and Pi3 is a combined mechanical and magnetic pistol. Here is a link to the US Mine-disposal manual from 1945, where you'll find photo/drawings and descriptions (check chapter 3):
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/minedisposal/index.htm#part4

I have more info, but have a look there first - I guess you'll find your answers :-)

Thanks Natter, great link

[NZSnowman]

Just want to check, did the G7e/T3, G7e/T4 Falke, G7es and the T11 all used the same propeller/propulsion/fins section as the G7e/T2?

Or were the small changes in the fins setup etc.. between each type? I had a look at a few photos of the T11 and it looks the same.

I'm no expert on the G7e variants, but as far as I know, they all had the same aft- and tail section (of course, the internal devices like the gyroscope etc. could vary).

Note that the Lut-torpedoes did have expandable vertical rudders to avoid the torpedo rolling over in turns, thus getting off course ("ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen") - see attached photo.

I have some close-ups of these rudders as well (I need to search for them in my rather complex folder-structure though...)

If you found the close-ups, I would love to see them, So I can add this detail.

[Natter]

If you found the close-ups, I would love to see them, So I can add this detail.

Here are some:

[Natter]

Great to hear from you! Thanks for the information.
Pi1

Link to a zip with some more photos and drawings I made for another guy:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38692668/Pi1.zip

[Natter]

Early War
G7a T1 Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Kurz
G7a T1,Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Lang
Late War
G7a T1 Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Kurz
G7a T1,Lut II, Ka, Pi1 Lang

I get the point with early/late war, but just for the record:
"Early" versions might have been used throughout the war.
I don't remember now when Lut II was fielded, but certainly not early in the war. Torpedoes could not (without major rebuild, which I doubt was ever done) be retrofitted with Fat and Lut - they were designed with these features from the production.
Also, warheads might have been a mix of early/late productions (externally, it would also be hard to distinguish Ka, Ka1, Ka2, Kb and Kb1 heads: The type was often painted within a circle on the front part of the head).

[Natter]

The type was often painted within a circle on the front part of the head).

[NZSnowman]

Great to hear from you! Thanks for the information.
Pi1

Link to a zip with some more photos and drawings I made for another guy:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38692668/Pi1.zip

Again many thanks for your help, Natter!
 
The new pictures, drawings and information were very helpful. I was able to increase that accurate of my drawing, and the measurement were great to scale the drawing accurately.

[NZSnowman]

Just want to check, did the G7e/T3, G7e/T4 Falke, G7es and the T11 all used the same propeller/propulsion/fins section as the G7e/T2?

Or were the small changes in the fins setup etc.. between each type? I had a look at a few photos of the T11 and it looks the same.

I'm no expert on the G7e variants, but as far as I know, they all had the same aft- and tail section (of course, the internal devices like the gyroscope etc. could vary).

Note that the Lut-torpedoes did have expandable vertical rudders to avoid the torpedo rolling over in turns, thus getting off course ("ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen") - see attached photo.

I have some close-ups of these rudders as well (I need to search for them in my rather complex folder-structure though...)

Natter, I imagine that the G7e/TIII Fat II also used this expandable vertical rudders?

[NZSnowman]

If you found the close-ups, I would love to see them, So I can add this detail.

Here are some:

Natter, Thanks for the extra pictures!

[Natter]

Natter, I imagine that the G7e/TIII Fat II also used this expandable vertical rudders?

I have not seen any info on these rudders other than on Lut-torpedoes, so I can't tell for sure. I believe the Lut-program was more sensitive to the sharp turns though, so it's possible this measure was only for Lut.

[NZSnowman]

Natter, I imagine that the G7e/TIII Fat II also used this expandable vertical rudders?

I have not seen any info on these rudders other than on Lut-torpedoes, so I can't tell for sure. I believe the Lut-program was more sensitive to the sharp turns though, so it's possible this measure was only for Lut.

I imagine for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes that they used the same tail section as for Lut G7e torpedoes, and the only different being that the safety locking pin was kept in place for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes?

Looking at that photo's, was there a small piston that extend to keep the fins extended outward, is this correct?

[NZSnowman]

Natter, below is a link to a PDF verson of the G7a drawings to download. You will be able to zoom in/out on the drawings.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3ug1zgdoqqxvfow

[Natter]

I imagine for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes that they used the same tail section as for Lut G7e torpedoes, and the only different being that the safety locking pin was kept in place for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes?

No. Different vertical fins (see attached photos of the "normal G7e fins). The expandable rudder is a sort of "sleeve" fitting outside the fixed rudder. The fixed rudder is also different, as it has the guiding slots for the pins in the expandable part.

[Natter]

the only different being that the safety locking pin was kept in place for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes?

I'm not sure what you mean with "safety locking pin"? If you refer to the pin on the aft part of the rudder, this is a guiding pin for the expandable rudder (fits in a slot in the fixed rudder - same with the pin fastened to the pneumatic sylinder).

Looking at that photo's, was there a small piston that extend to keep the fins extended outward, is this correct?

Yes, this is a pneumatic cylinder controlled by the gyroscope, extending the rudder when the torpedo turns, to avoid the torpedo pitching and waving off course, due to the depthrudders becoming side-rudders vice versa).

[Natter]

Looking through photos, I just now realized that the TXI torpedo preserved in UK is equipped with the expandable rudders. No photos of the TV torpedoes (wartime + U-505 collection) shows the same. Wether the TXI had a Lut-program as backup for the acoustic control I don't know (doesn't seem likely). I guess it's possible they decided to incorporate this as a measure to make the TXI more "agile" than the TV though, or perhaps the british simply used a standard aft-section in the restoration of the TXI.

[Natter]

Natter, below is a link to a PDF verson of the G7a drawings to download. You will be able to zoom in/out on the drawings.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3ug1zgdoqqxvfow

One issue: The torpedoes were somewhat differently configured when launched from a submarine or a surface-vessel (battleship/cruiser/destroyer/torpedoboat/S-boat) due to primary the different tubes. The external differences of interest to you, is the use of the "h

[NZSnowman]

I imagine for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes that they used the same tail section as for Lut G7e torpedoes, and the only different being that the safety locking pin was kept in place for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes?

No. Different vertical fins (see attached photos of the "normal G7e fins). The expandable rudder is a sort of "sleeve" fitting outside the fixed rudder. The fixed rudder is also different, as it has the guiding slots for the pins in the expandable part.

Thanks for the photo's I will add the fixed rudders to my drawing this weedend

[NZSnowman]

the only different being that the safety locking pin was kept in place for the non-Lut G7e torpedoes?

I'm not sure what you mean with "safety locking pin"? If you refer to the pin on the aft part of the rudder, this is a guiding pin for the expandable rudder (fits in a slot in the fixed rudder - same with the pin fastened to the pneumatic sylinder).

Looking at that photo's, was there a small piston that extend to keep the fins extended outward, is this correct?

Yes, this is a pneumatic cylinder controlled by the gyroscope, extending the rudder when the torpedo turns, to avoid the torpedo pitching and waving off course, due to the depthrudders becoming side-rudders vice versa).

Natter, how does this look below? I added a guiding pin/guide and the piston.

Also was the fin only extended while turning or was it extended the whole time?

[NZSnowman]

Looking through photos, I just now realized that the TXI torpedo preserved in UK is equipped with the expandable rudders. No photos of the TV torpedoes (wartime + U-505 collection) shows the same. Wether the TXI had a Lut-program as backup for the acoustic control I don't know (doesn't seem likely). I guess it's possible they decided to incorporate this as a measure to make the TXI more "agile" than the TV though, or perhaps the british simply used a standard aft-section in the restoration of the TXI.

Thanks for the information, I will try to remember to used the normal rudder fo this torpedo type

[NZSnowman]

Natter, below is a link to a PDF verson of the G7a drawings to download. You will be able to zoom in/out on the drawings.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3ug1zgdoqqxvfow

One issue: The torpedoes were somewhat differently configured when launched from a submarine or a surface-vessel (battleship/cruiser/destroyer/torpedoboat/S-boat) due to primary the different tubes. The external differences of interest to you, is the use of the "h

[SG]

Hi, I was reading one of the best christmas presents ever received and found some exotic torpedo warheads that u might find interesting. Picture was taken at the main Kriegsmarine torpedo storage tunnel in Brest. Am sure that many of you will like this unusual warhead painting scheme, just like i do!!      
 

[TopherVIIC]

Interesting pic SG. A depot of some sort. Vertical rack storage, trolly transfer tracks - the arched door of a cement bunker entrance or transfer tunnel. Looks like practice warheads with the diamond patterns... It is just me but as a former ammunition handler, I get tweaky seeing the unprotected propellor blades of these torpedoes...
Christopher

[SG]

Yepp, those unprotected propellers!! By the way, three more pics, same source.
The torpedo workshop as it was and as it is today
Cheers!
 

 

 

[SnakeDoc]

Hi,

Hi, I was reading one of the best christmas presents ever received and found some exotic torpedo warheads that u might find interesting.

What is the title of that book?


--
Regards
Maciek

[SG]

Maciek!
Book's title is "U-Boote! Brest" By Luc Braeuer, also author of "U-boote! Lorient" part 1 and 2 and "U-Boote! St Nazaire". Magnificent books, hundred of rarely- to never-seen pics, four must-have!
Cheers!   

[NZSnowman]

Natter/Maciek

Most pictures of the T5 and T11 show them without the nose cap. Were these torpedoes fired with or without the nose cap?

[NZSnowman]

Maciek,

What was the conclusion with the late war Type VIIC

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Must pictures of the T5 and T11 show them without the nose cap. Were these torpedoes fired with or without the nose cap?

I don't know what you mean saying "nose cap".


--
Regards
Maciek

[SnakeDoc]

What was the conclusion with the late war Type VIIC

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon

Must pictures of the T5 and T11 show them without the nose cap. Were these torpedoes fired with or without the nose cap?

I don't know what you mean saying "nose cap".


--
Regards
Maciek

The nose cap (it look like red Bakelite)?? which I believe was full with liquid??

[NZSnowman]

What was the conclusion with the late war Type VIIC

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon

Must pictures of the T5 and T11 show them without the nose cap. Were these torpedoes fired with or without the nose cap?

I don't know what you mean saying "nose cap".


--
Regards
Maciek

The nose cap (it look like red Bakelite)?? which I believe was full with liquid??

Maciek, I was searching wikipedia today about the T5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G7es_torpedo and it talks about two variants. Maybe this is what I am seeing in photo's, one without the "nose cap" and one with

There were two main variants:

    A flat-nosed version which contained two sets of magnetostriction hydrophones.
    A round-nosed version which contained two magnetostriction hydrophones inside a funnel-shaped baffle.

[NZSnowman]

Natter/Maciek

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

Thanks, Simon.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter

How do these look?



Fig. 1. Early War G7a.




Fig. 2. Mid War G7a.




Fig. 3. G7e, TV & T11(?)






Fig. 4. G7e Lut & Fat; T11(?).

[VonStigler]

Natter/Maciek

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

Thanks, Simon.

Simon,
Not really my area of knowledge but I would guess that the hole is for a chain to slip through and the slot for a link in the chain to lock into, possibly for tie-down or hoisting purposes.
Regards,
Brian

[SnakeDoc]

 Hi Simon,

What was the conclusion with the late war Type VIIC

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon,

Maciek, I was searching wikipedia today about the T5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G7es_torpedo and it talks about two variants. Maybe this is what I am seeing in photo's, one without the "nose cap" and one with

There were two main variants:

    A flat-nosed version which contained two sets of magnetostriction hydrophones.
    A round-nosed version which contained two magnetostriction hydrophones inside a funnel-shaped baffle.

That's right - first - flat nose version - 4E2 Storch - contained four hydrophones, while the second - rounded nose version - 25

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon,

What was the conclusion with the late war Type VIIC

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon,

Maciek, I was searching wikipedia today about the T5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G7es_torpedo and it talks about two variants. Maybe this is what I am seeing in photo's, one without the "nose cap" and one with

There were two main variants:

    A flat-nosed version which contained two sets of magnetostriction hydrophones.
    A round-nosed version which contained two magnetostriction hydrophones inside a funnel-shaped baffle.

That's right - first - flat nose version - 4E2 Storch - contained four hydrophones, while the second - rounded nose version - 25

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon,

Maciek, I was searching wikipedia today about the T5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G7es_torpedo and it talks about two variants. Maybe this is what I am seeing in photo's, one without the "nose cap" and one with

There were two main variants:

    A flat-nosed version which contained two sets of magnetostriction hydrophones.
    A round-nosed version which contained two magnetostriction hydrophones inside a funnel-shaped baffle.

That's right - first - flat nose version - 4E2 Storch - contained four hydrophones, while the second - rounded nose version - 25

[SnakeDoc]

Hi Simon

Were all the torpedo tubes made in the same factor, and then shipped to the different shipyards? If this was the case, you could imagine it was easier to make all the changes in one factor for the non-mine layer tube for the late war Type VIIC

[Natter]

Time flies... it's been a while since my last visit - trying to catch up :-)

Natter, how does this look below? I added a guiding pin/guide and the piston.

Looking good to me.

Also was the fin only extended while turning or was it extended the whole time?

Only during turns (controlled by the gyroscope)

[Natter]

Hi, I was reading one of the best christmas presents ever received and found some exotic torpedo warheads that u might find interesting. Picture was taken at the main Kriegsmarine torpedo storage tunnel in Brest. Am sure that many of you will like this unusual warhead painting scheme, just like i do!!

I have seen several photos of storage-areas like this in the U-Boat bunkers and Torpedoarsenals in France (and Netherlands i think). It's annoying, but so far, I have not been able to determine what type of torpedoes this is...
There is information indicating some sort of cooperation between Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe in terms of torpedo storage and maintenance (at least in the early days, before Luftwaffe established their own organisastion) and at the end of the war, were resources was utilized for a common goal). Ie: This could be luftttorpedoes (some are very similar to the F5b). Hard to tell if this is 45cm or 50/53cm torpedoes though. My only other suggestion for a german torpedo would be older Schwartzkopf models like the C35, but it's very unlikely that these would have been in service at this point.

The heads are most certainly exercise-heads, painted in different "high visibility" patterns (making it more easy to spot the torpedo after it has run out the set distance). These patterns are not according to regulation though - suggesting very early days or lufttorpedoes (not sure what regulations they had, but all photos I have seen shows the same pattern as Kriegsmarine).


Regarding the type of torpedoes: There's also the option of this being "beutewaffe", and as this is in Brest: French torpedoes (which I'm not familiar with). If I would have to make a choice, my bet would be the latter.

[Natter]

It is just me but as a former ammunition handler, I get tweaky seeing the unprotected propellor blades of these torpedoes...

I'm not sure what kind of protection you are refering to (for stopping the propeller turning, or protect the sharp edges?). Neither would have any influence on the safety in regards to the explosives (germans had strict rules, keeping warheads and pistols stored separately).

The propellerblades were quite sharp (I've been cut more than once...), but as far as I know there were no protection for this. Also, I have never seen any "stopper" for the G7e propellers, like the ones for the G7a. Could be that the electric motor was secured in another way, so this wasn't as cruical for the electric torpedoes? On the G7a, this would be more important, as there would usually be some residual pressure in the engine and pipes, risking the propeller doing 1-2 turns if they were pushed by accident.

[Natter]

Most pictures of the T5 and T11 show them without the nose cap. Were these torpedoes fired with or without the nose cap?

If you by "nose cap" mean the "storch", then of course they were fitted (this was the passive hydrophone seeker). However, there was a protective cap covering the front of the seeker for storage and handling, and this was of course removed before loading the torpedo.

[Natter]

There were two main variants:
    A flat-nosed version which contained two sets of magnetostriction hydrophones.
    A round-nosed version which contained two magnetostriction hydrophones inside a funnel-shaped baffle.

Well, that doesn't describe anything but the difference in physical appearance...   The 2 (or in fact 3 - I believe there were 2 variants of the vierfach storch), had different characteristics in regards to detection (sensitivity, range and directional accuracy). The vierfach being more accurate and less sensitive for destrortion by extarnal noise etc.

I do have some documents eplaining the function and drawings, but unfortunately, I'm not able to locate the proper extarnal harddrive now (I have more than 30 ;-| ). I think Maciej got copies of these a while back though, so perhaps he will post them if I don't come up with anything soon.

In case it has some interest - here are some diagrams showing the controlsystems for the acoustic torpedoes (scans from R

[Natter]

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

I have never seen any description of it, but it's very similar (including the two holes for screws) with a feature they had in the first version of the whitehead-tail of the G7a. In this opening a small nozzle waf fitted, supposedly catching seawater for cooling the propeller-crossdrive. It's not unlikely this also was a feature of the woolwich-tail on the early G7e as well.
In this case it would obviously be an old type fin mounted on a new torpedo, lacking the piping going to the crossdrive.

I have attached a couple of photos showing this feature on a G7a:

[Natter]

Were all the torpedo tubes made in the same factor, and then shipped to the different shipyards?

For surface-tubes there were at least 4 different firms making the same types (with minor differences). Wether this was the case for the submarine-tubes I have no idea, but I would think at least 2 concerning the logistics (the submarinetubes were of course more complex systems than the surface tubes, so there might have been less firms involved in regards to the experience/technology required).

[Natter]

Hi Natter

How do these look?

Nice. It's hard to be specific with the small drawings, but I do notice a couple of things:
The G7a had a different tail for the first variants (I don't know for how long it was used, but certainly after the outbreak of the war). You can see it in the "zeichnungen" document wich is published on the Uboat Archive website). Also (as mentioned before), there are very many possible combinations of "old"/"new" parts etc + minor variations between the different factories producing the torpedoes, so there just won't be a 100% correct answer.

Your G7e models do for sure lack many details on the aft-sections..? In general, the aft-section (not including the tail) are identical for the G7a and G7e.

[Natter]

By the way, three more pics, same source.
The torpedo workshop as it was and as it is today

Nice photos!  Still puzzled by the type of torpedoes - I will need to investigate french models... :-)

[SG]

Yepp, it would be nice to know if those are german or french torpedoes! Far from being an expert myself and speaking of german torpedoes in France, I found another interesting picture of a barge moored alongside Lorient dock, loaded w torpedoes. The caption states these are "G7-type torpedoes for submarine use". Again, another unusual (and appealing to the eye) warhead finish.   
 

[Natter]

Yepp, it would be nice to know if those are german or french torpedoes!

I found one candidate of a french torpedo that might resemble the ones in the storage-photos, but I believe it was a model introduced after the war. I have sent the photos to a collegue of mine with far better general knowledge on torpedoes than me. Maybe he will have an idea (I don't expect an answer for at least a few weeks though).

Far from being an expert myself and speaking of german torpedoes in France, I found another interesting picture of a barge moored alongside Lorient dock, loaded w torpedoes. The caption states these are "G7-type torpedoes for submarine use". Again, another unusual (and appealing to the eye) warhead finish.

I have seen a photo of a german torpedo with the similar finish of the head  being loaded into a U-boat (I couldn't see if it was a warhead or exersice-head - that's in fact hard to tell on this photo as well, although my best guess is exercise). I have no idea if this was some sort of standard pattern introduced later in the war, if it was a "local" variant in a certain torpedoarsenal or even a pattern used for a special purpose. It's not the standard pattern used from before the war for sure. In regards to these being G7a: It's impossible to verify that from the low quality of the photo. As a general rule, I would not rely on photo-captions in books or elsewhere...

[SG]

In regards to these being G7a: It's impossible to verify that from the low quality of the photo. As a general rule, I would not rely on photo-captions in books or elsewhere...

Natter I agree with you 100%. Standing by for further developments.
Cheers!

[Natter]

Yepp, it would be nice to know if those are german or french torpedoes!

I found one candidate of a french torpedo that might resemble the ones in the storage-photos, but I believe it was a model introduced after the war. I have sent the photos to a collegue of mine with far better general knowledge on torpedoes than me. Maybe he will have an idea (I don't expect an answer for at least a few weeks though).

Far from being an expert myself and speaking of german torpedoes in France, I found another interesting picture of a barge moored alongside Lorient dock, loaded w torpedoes. The caption states these are "G7-type torpedoes for submarine use". Again, another unusual (and appealing to the eye) warhead finish.

I have seen a photo of a german torpedo with the similar finish of the head  being loaded into a U-boat (I couldn't see if it was a warhead or exersice-head - that's in fact hard to tell on this photo as well, although my best guess is exercise). I have no idea if this was some sort of standard pattern introduced later in the war, if it was a "local" variant in a certain torpedoarsenal or even a pattern used for a special purpose. It's not the standard pattern used from before the war for sure. In regards to these being G7a: It's impossible to verify that from the low quality of the photo. As a general rule, I would not rely on photo-captions in books or elsewhere...

I got a reply from my collegue, who have significantly more knowledge on torpedoedes than me (especially everything non-german). According to him, these could be french torpedoes, but as the french have been very secretive about their weapons, there isn't much photos and information available to veryfy this 100%.

Here are some facts though:
The torpedes in question are for sure not german-manucatured
The Brest-facility was built by the french in 1939 (originally as a storage for aircraft-engines), and was turned into a torpedo-facility by the germans in june 1941 (used for production and maintenance - servicing the part of the atlantic fleet stationed in France). The Brest-facility was the largest german torpedoarsenal, and was evacuated and taken over by the french on august 25, 1944. The french rebuilt the facility and continued using it for torpedostorage/-maintenance from september 1944.
The germans captured and used enormous amounts of foreign weapons, including torpedoes. For example, the french 55cm types 24M and 23DT was used on captured frech surfacevessels.
British torpedoes might also have been used by the germans (the dutch used these, and germany captured some dutch vessels, and reused dutch torpedotubes in at least 3 shore torpedobatteries in Norway/France).

Conclusion? Impossible at this stage to be 100% certain, but my collegue and I thinks the 24M and 23DT are the most likely candidates, although there are no known photos/drawings of these torpedoes to compare with.
Another fact that might be helpful, is knowing when the photos are taken (before/during/after the german period in Brest?). Are the uniforms verified german (germans might have been used also after august 1944)?


If anyone can provide more information (including photos/drawings) on french torpedoes, I'd be very happy!

[SG]

Natter,
some more infos: the images come from Karl Hoffmann Collection; the pictures captions state that the men pictured belonged to torpedo-kommando Brest (and arrived in Brest in June 1940, they were originally from KMW Whilemshaven) which took over the french storage tunnel. The tunnel was an ancient french torpedo storage facility, which was subsequently captured by the kriegsmarine and re-used.
No infos about the date of the shots. The mens' uniforms look undoubtedly german.
This supports what you said about the torpedoes: most probably pre/early-war french ones re-employed by the germans.
 
Well done, Natter! Congrats for the precision, accuracy and the completeness of your research! am speechless
Will keep up standing by for further information.
 
PS The diamond warheads' pattern (be german or french) is undoubtedly eye-catching and cool anyways! 
   

[Natter]

some more infos: the images come from Karl Hoffmann Collection; the pictures captions state that the men pictured belonged to torpedo-kommando Brest (and arrived in Brest in Juin 1940, they were originally from KMW Whilemshaven) which took over the french storage tunnel.

Yes, "1941" was an unfortunate typo on my end...
Thanks for the image-source. It might be possible to find more photos from this series, even in larger format/better resolution (I'll look into this). Btw: I have now bought all the books referred to earlier (with these photos). Sadly, I don't understand french :-|

The tunnel was an ancient french torpedo storage facility, which was subsequently captured from the kriegsmarine and re-used.
No infos about the date of the shots. The mens' uniforms look undoubtedly german.

Yes, I think so (although I'm really no expert on uniforms).

This supports what you said about the torpedoes: most probably pre/early-war french ones re-employed by the germans.

Yes. If it was possible to measure the diametre of the torpedoes from the photos it would help, but the difference of 55 vs 53,34 cm is hard to see of course.

PS The diamond warheads' pattern (be german or french) is undoubtedly eye-catching and cool anyways!

From what I can see of the photos, I'm 99% certain these are exercise-heads (which of course is the only logical reason for doping this). An annoying thing though: In one photo you can clearly see a german transportcontainer for G7 warheads...

[Natter]

The forum-crash seems to have lost many posts in this topic over the last few weeks, but I guess it's nothing to be done.
Anyway: I found a couple of drawings related the G7e (TIII) LUT "flossen" that might be of interest:

[Natter]

A couple of drawings on the G7es (TV):

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter
 
I decided to take so time off studying today, and do some drawing


Fig. 1. Added the asphalt wire covered to the tail section of the TV. Measurements are base on the plan you provided above.
 

Fig. 2. Made a few small changes to the TV body.


Fig. 3. TV (Large format).

[Natter]

Although I'm not sure if this is correct, the TV on display at the U-505 exibition has the expandable vertical rudders as are fitted to the LUT-equipped G7e's. This is also the case with the TXI in Birkenhead (although I suspect they might have swapped the aft-section with a standard one there9. The painted "TV" in a ring on the batterychamber is also something I have only seen on the U-505 torpedo (on the port side, not starborad). This is not present on wartime photos, but the photos I have only shows the starborad side, so there might have been a marking like this on the port side - it does resembles the way they marked the warhead).

I'm not sure about the asphalt covering the "salamander" wiring - where did you find this info? On some photos I have, it seems like a metal cover fastened with screws. Wartime-photos (I think I have posted one earlier) shows both dark/light/and no colour for this.

I commented on the red rings indicating the lifting point for an ampty torpedo, but it was one of the posts losts when they restored the forum from an old backup: I don't have the exact measurements, but it should be 18-20cm between the two stripes.

Your aft-section lacks a few details, like the hatch and GA-screws etc.

Besides the measurements, you should not rely on details from the sketch I attached to my previous post: It's just a rough sketch made by the RNoN during their post-war survey of the TV torpedo (taken from the technical evaluation report).

[NZSnowman]

I'm not sure about the asphalt covering the "salamander" wiring - where did you find this info? On some photos I have, it seems like a metal cover fastened with screws. Wartime-photos (I think I have posted one earlier) shows both dark/light/and no colour for this.

I found some information about it in the “Navy Department Chief of Naval Opertions Washington. Final Report - G/Serial 29. Report on the Interrogation of Survivors from U-172 Sunk 13 December 1943” Page 23. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm
 
The tail piece has a winding of wire covered with asphalt (at C).  This is visible, but on newer types is believed to have been put inside.  The only explanation given the prisoner of the purpose of this was that “if the target produces a positive field, the torpedo will take a negative field, and vice versa, through the action of this winding”.

The first drawing I did of the cover was metal and fastened with pop rivets. Then I noticed in some of the photo’s I have of the TV at Chicago the cover is very dark, so I  presume the Germans wrapped the copper wire around the outside and then used the asphalt to smooth it off. Like the cross-section below.



Also from the photo’s I have it clearly show where no screws or pop rivets to fix the metal section of the cover. So I presume the Germans either spot wielded or wielded it straight on to the body, so I remove the pop rivets from my drawing.

Although I'm not sure if this is correct, the TV on display at the U-505 exibition has the expandable vertical rudders as are fitted to the LUT-equipped G7e's. This is also the case with the TXI in Birkenhead (although I suspect they might have swapped the aft-section with a standard one there9.

It also talks about bigger rudders in the report above on page 23/24.

The rudder of T-5 is one and a half times the size of the rudder of an ordinary electric torpedo. Estimated dimensions: 19 cm. long, 3 cm. wide, 4 mm. thick.  The rudder is painted red.

The painted "TV" in a ring on the batterychamber is also something I have only seen on the U-505 torpedo (on the port side, not starborad). This is not present on wartime photos, but the photos I have only shows the starborad side, so there might have been a marking like this on the port side - it does resembles the way they marked the warhead).

I will remove this marking.

I commented on the red rings indicating the lifting point for an ampty torpedo, but it was one of the posts losts when they restored the forum from an old backup: I don't have the exact measurements, but it should be 18-20cm between the two stripes.

Thanks, I remember where something about these markings I had to fix.

Your aft-section lacks a few details, like the hatch and GA-screws etc.

Yes, I know. I am having trouble finding good photos or drawings to help me put things in the correct locations in this area. I have let this area mostly clear at the moment until I get the information I need.

[Natter]

I found some information about it in the “Navy Department Chief of Naval Opertions Washington. Final Report - G/Serial 29. Report on the Interrogation of Survivors from U-172 Sunk 13 December 1943” Page 23. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm

Ok - I know this info. As it has a lot of errors and irregularities, I just haven't paid much attention to it though: It's from 1943, when the acoustic torpedoes were new and the germans were of course very keen on keeping the info secret. As it also appears from the interviews, the (low rank) mechanics aboard only got as much info they needed. You should also consider that the POW might have tried to give false or misleading information in the interviews.

The first drawing I did of the cover was metal and fastened with pop rivets. Then I noticed in some of the photo’s I have of the TV at Chicago the cover is very dark, so I  presume the Germans wrapped the copper wire around the outside and then used the asphalt to smooth it off. Like the cross-section below.

Well, compared with war-time photos there might be lacking an external cover on the torpedo in the U-505 exibition (see attachement)? I see from a close up, that the Chicago-torpedo for sure has a "soft" cover showing the wireturns underneath, but as the torpedo has been completely dismantled and refurbished, this might very well be the solution they chose at the museum (and we see from the colours they chose that they didn't get it all correct - I remember some guy from the museum was researching several issues regarding the restoration on some internetforums a few years back, and they didn't get any answers there).

Also from the photo’s I have it clearly show where no screws or pop rivets to fix the metal section of the cover. So I presume the Germans either spot wielded or wielded it straight on to the body, so I remove the pop rivets from my drawing.

Possible. I don't know. I see remains from the "salamander" on the TXI torpedo in a photo from the recovery-operation. It is almost completely corroded, so that might be the explanation for the missing part on the U-534 torpedo in UK.

It also talks about bigger rudders in the report above on page 23/24.
The rudder of T-5 is one and a half times the size of the rudder of an ordinary electric torpedo. Estimated dimensions: 19 cm. long, 3 cm. wide, 4 mm. thick.  The rudder is painted red.

Yes, I noticed that. I don't see any difference in the sice of rudders compared to TII / TIII though, so my guess this is just a reference to the "ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen"?

I will remove this marking.

Again: I'm not sure about this - maybe the guys in Chicago has some info we don't have (I would think that the ONI / US Navy made thoroughly  documentation (including photographs - although probably only b/w) when investigating the captured torpedoes).

[NZSnowman]

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

I have never seen any description of it, but it's very similar (including the two holes for screws) with a feature they had in the first version of the whitehead-tail of the G7a. In this opening a small nozzle waf fitted, supposedly catching seawater for cooling the propeller-crossdrive. It's not unlikely this also was a feature of the woolwich-tail on the early G7e as well.
In this case it would obviously be an old type fin mounted on a new torpedo, lacking the piping going to the crossdrive.

I have attached a couple of photos showing this feature on a G7a:

Natter, I taking at look at the "key" shape cut-out that was use for the seawater cooling found in the photo above of the G7e. I noticed that on the Chicago TV were is no cut-out.

Could is mean that G7e with the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T2 & G7e without the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T3?

[Natter]

Natter, I taking at look at the "key" shape cut-out that was use for the seawater cooling found in the photo above of the G7e. I noticed that on the Chicago TV were is no cut-out.
Could is mean that G7e with the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T2 & G7e without the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T3?

Well, your guess is as good as mine to be honest :-)
Remember there are several years in development between the earliest G7e variant and the TV, but I have no idea on details like that (or documents that might give more info) :-|
I'm sick these days as well, so I don't feel like digging into books/documents anyway, but if I find something I'll post it here.

[NZSnowman]

I found some information about it in the “Navy Department Chief of Naval Opertions Washington. Final Report - G/Serial 29. Report on the Interrogation of Survivors from U-172 Sunk 13 December 1943” Page 23. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm

Ok - I know this info. As it has a lot of errors and irregularities, I just haven't paid much attention to it though: It's from 1943, when the acoustic torpedoes were new and the germans were of course very keen on keeping the info secret. As it also appears from the interviews, the (low rank) mechanics aboard only got as much info they needed. You should also consider that the POW might have tried to give false or misleading information in the interviews.

The first drawing I did of the cover was metal and fastened with pop rivets. Then I noticed in some of the photo’s I have of the TV at Chicago the cover is very dark, so I  presume the Germans wrapped the copper wire around the outside and then used the asphalt to smooth it off. Like the cross-section below.

Well, compared with war-time photos there might be lacking an external cover on the torpedo in the U-505 exibition (see attachement)? I see from a close up, that the Chicago-torpedo for sure has a "soft" cover showing the wireturns underneath, but as the torpedo has been completely dismantled and refurbished, this might very well be the solution they chose at the museum (and we see from the colours they chose that they didn't get it all correct - I remember some guy from the museum was researching several issues regarding the restoration on some internetforums a few years back, and they didn't get any answers there).

Also from the photo’s I have it clearly show where no screws or pop rivets to fix the metal section of the cover. So I presume the Germans either spot wielded or wielded it straight on to the body, so I remove the pop rivets from my drawing.

Possible. I don't know. I see remains from the "salamander" on the TXI torpedo in a photo from the recovery-operation. It is almost completely corroded, so that might be the explanation for the missing part on the U-534 torpedo in UK.

It also talks about bigger rudders in the report above on page 23/24.
The rudder of T-5 is one and a half times the size of the rudder of an ordinary electric torpedo. Estimated dimensions: 19 cm. long, 3 cm. wide, 4 mm. thick.  The rudder is painted red.

Yes, I noticed that. I don't see any difference in the sice of rudders compared to TII / TIII though, so my guess this is just a reference to the "ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen"?

I will remove this marking.

Again: I'm not sure about this - maybe the guys in Chicago has some info we don't have (I would think that the ONI / US Navy made thoroughly  documentation (including photographs - although probably only b/w) when investigating the captured torpedoes).

Natter, I found those:

External winding on tail piece:  This is about 15 cm. behind the gyro; when the torpedo is being loaded into the tube, the wooden protecting frame is removed, exposing another sort of protection around the winding.  This is bronze-colored, about 28 to 30 cm. wide, and extending about 1.5 cm. above the body of the torpedo.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm Pages 31-32.
Winding:    The winding on the tail piece is said to be between 30 and 33 cm. behind the gyro, to extend about 30 cm., and to be about 1 cm. thick.  The winding has the appearance of a white metal and can be pressed in with one's thumbs.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-801INT.htm Page 29
U. Winding on Tailpiece:

Prisoners called this winding a “Sendespule” (transmitting coil) which creates a magnetic field between itself and the pistol.  The winding has a protective rubber covering.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371INT.htm Pages 16-17.

[Natter]

Natter, I found those:

External winding on tail piece:  This is about 15 cm. behind the gyro; when the torpedo is being loaded into the tube, the wooden protecting frame is removed, exposing another sort of protection around the winding.  This is bronze-colored, about 28 to 30 cm. wide, and extending about 1.5 cm. above the body of the torpedo.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm Pages 31-32.
Winding:    The winding on the tail piece is said to be between 30 and 33 cm. behind the gyro, to extend about 30 cm., and to be about 1 cm. thick.  The winding has the appearance of a white metal and can be pressed in with one's thumbs.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-801INT.htm Page 29
U. Winding on Tailpiece:

Prisoners called this winding a “Sendespule” (transmitting coil) which creates a magnetic field between itself and the pistol.  The winding has a protective rubber covering.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371INT.htm Pages 16-17.

Thanks, I don't think I saw those before - it backs up the fact that the coil was covered with some sort of "soft" protection (althoug the statements differ in colour and context?). The photo I posted above probably shows the wooden protection.

Regarding the "sendepule": It created the field which the torpedo used to detect it's passing underneath the steelhull of the target (see attached drawing). I also included an illustration of the "spatz" test-box mentioned by one of the POW's.

[NZSnowman]

Here my take on the wooden cover, made with wooden Veneer, with 1 or 2 small latches and two small hinges on the opposite side of the cover

[GlennCauley]

Pics taken of a torpedo on display at the Canadian War Museum.
May help in the details, but not the colour.

Of note:  there are serration ridges ahead of each of the 4 fins.

[GlennCauley]

a few more pics

[GlennCauley]

and last 2 pics...

[Natter]

Pics taken of a torpedo on display at the Canadian War Museum.

This is a G7e(TII) or G7e(TIII). I see that it has been equipped with propeller-stoppers recently? I have actually never seen an origional stopper for the G7e propellers, but I don't think these look original (unles it's painted steel, they look more like a US type for a post-war torpedo), but I would really like to have that verified...

May help in the details, but not the colour.

Yes, colour is obviously wrong (and for some reason, they have chosen to display the torpedo upside down...).

Of note:  there are serration ridges ahead of each of the 4 fins.

Those ridges are netcutters monted on the aftsection. There are also similar netcutters mounted on the warhead (the torpedo on display has an exersicehead though - seems like a type 1215, but more detailed photos of the top - ie "underside" - would help).

[NZSnowman]

Just a very small update today, fixed three small errors on the fins that I found

[Natter]

Nice job - it looks similar to the drawings I put up recently, but when comparing to the (blurred) photo on page 2, there are something that don't match up. I think the photo is probably more reliable, but there might have been different versions for all I know...

[NZSnowman]

Nice job - it looks similar to the drawings I put up recently, but when comparing to the (blurred) photo on page 2, there are something that don't match up. I think the photo is probably more reliable, but there might have been different versions for all I know...

Good spotting! You are totally correct. I have made the glide pin too forward

It shows the correct position on the Chicago torpedo, farther back like the war-time photo.
 
I will fix right-a-way!
 
Simon

[Natter]

Of note:  there are serration ridges ahead of each of the 4 fins.

Those ridges are netcutters monted on the aftsection. There are also similar netcutters mounted on the warhead (the torpedo on display has an exersicehead though - seems like a type 1215, but more detailed photos of the top - ie "underside" - would help).

A couple of photos showing the netcutters on the head:

[Natter]

I found a couple of photos showing the marking on the warhead (in this case Kb heads) - as you can see, there are obviously some leeway in terms of placement:

[NZSnowman]

Made lots of small changes and updates.

I totally redraw the fins; added more detail to the glide & hinds pins; correct the alignment of pins; added a little more detail to the tail section.






Made a small Windows Media Video of the fins opening and closing

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/6ayjj8bmmv3g598/Untitled_0004.wmv

[NZSnowman]

I found a couple of photos showing the marking on the warhead (in this case Kb heads) - as you can see, there are obviously some leeway in terms of placement:

Thanks!

These markings are in the same style that is found on the TV in Chicago. Maybe a little smaller

[NZSnowman]

I found a couple of photos showing the marking on the warhead (in this case Kb heads) - as you can see, there are obviously some leeway in terms of placement:

[NZSnowman]

Building the body of a T5 G7es Zaunköni

[Natter]

Nice finish

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter

Good to hear from you, hope you are well.

I was wondering, how are the three batteries covers fixes to the body of the tube? I had no close pictures of this, and could not work this out.

[Natter]

Hi Natter
Good to hear from you, hope you are well.

Thank you. Not really, but I "wake up" everytime there's a post here... ;-)

I was wondering, how are the three batteries covers fixes to the body of the tube? I had no close pictures of this, and could not work this out.

I'm not 100% sure, but I always imagined they are mounted in a similar matter as the gyroscopehatch: By means of a loose "cross" which is fitted on the inside, and where the centre bolt is fastened (see attached illustrations).

[NZSnowman]

Thanks.

Look like a nice and simple German design

I will add this detail to my drawings.

[NZSnowman]

[Natter]

I don't remember if you got this already, or even if it's useful, but I found some of my photos with measurements - mainly from the G7a(TI) / T1 mod 1 torpedo:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38692668/TP-measurements.pdf

[NZSnowman]

I don't remember if you got this already, or even if it's useful, but I found some photos with measurements - mainly from the G7a(TI) / T1 mod 1 torpedo:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38692668/TP-measurements.pdf

Have not see this for. Very useful!!!

Thanks 

[NZSnowman]

A little bit of modelling over the weekend.

[NZSnowman]

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

I have never seen any description of it, but it's very similar (including the two holes for screws) with a feature they had in the first version of the whitehead-tail of the G7a. In this opening a small nozzle waf fitted, supposedly catching seawater for cooling the propeller-crossdrive. It's not unlikely this also was a feature of the woolwich-tail on the early G7e as well.
In this case it would obviously be an old type fin mounted on a new torpedo, lacking the piping going to the crossdrive.

I have attached a couple of photos showing this feature on a G7a:

Natter, just checking that the water inlet for the cooling of the propeller-crossdrive is only found on the early G7e and not on the  G7e (TIII) LUT "flossen"?

[SG]

Thats a great preview Simon. Am looking forward to see it completed soon!

[GlennCauley]

Will someone be putting all this great information into one document?    It would be a great collaborative effort, I think, and be one definitive source to be used.   It would make it so much easier than having to search through so many different threads.  Just a thought.

[NZSnowman]

Will someone be putting all this great information into one document?    It would be a great collaborative effort, I think, and be one definitive source to be used.   It would make it so much easier than having to search through so many different threads.  Just a thought.

That has always been my plan to produce a document detailing the different WWII German torpedoes in there originally colour, but this has been delay a little because of my master’s degree.

I wanted to produce a colour detail drawing of each torpedo and when they were used during the war, so modeller could add the correct wartime torpedo to their U-boat model.

One disadvantage of my U-boat drawings are, they are usually only 2 views (top and starboard), so between study and to improved my modelling skill, I started modelling the torpedoes in 3D.

At the end I was going to make the document and 3D models freely available and ask nicely if Dougie & Wink would like to host the files on AMP.

[dougie47]

Hi gents,
Good idea, Glenn, thanks for posting.
Yes, Simon, we'd be happy to host your drawings and documents. Hope your studies are going well.
Cheers,
Dougie
 

[NZSnowman]

[NZSnowman]

Natter/Maciek

What kind of metel do you guys think are the four bar on the nose of the T5?

I was thinking maybe gold?

Thanks, Simon.

[NZSnowman]

The nose of the T5

[Natter]

Natter, just checking that the water inlet for the cooling of the propeller-crossdrive is only found on the early G7e and not on the  G7e (TIII) LUT "flossen"?

Sorry for a late reply: The forum seem to have stopped sending notifications of new posts...

I really don't know, as I haven't yet been able to obtain complete and detailed drawings of the G7e :-(
I have archive-references to relevant material at TNA and BaMa, but the current prices from the first mentioned are too insane to even consider ordering copies (I hope to take a trip to Kew and get copies by myself - it's way cheaper, even considering the airfare and lodging), and the latter is virtually impossible to get copies from without personal attendance (and even then very beurocratic + expensive).

Judging by available photos it seems highly unlikely that this feature was present on later development G7e's like TIII and so forth (just my more or less "qualified" guess though. You can't really rely on museumobjects either, as they have seen postwar usage and parts might have been exchanged - like the example I posted above, which is a torpedo mounted on a Marder midget submarine at a naval base here in Norway).

[Natter]

What kind of metel do you guys think are the four bar on the nose of the T5?
I was thinking maybe gold?

Modern transducers for sonars/hydrophones would have a layer of a material being "invisible" as in giving minimum "resitanse" for the soundwaves interfaceing the water (ie normally a special kind of rubber).
In the reports from interrogation of the german crew of U-172, they refer to the hydrophones in the seeker of the G7s(TV) as "blanke metallteile" (blank metalparts). In general, there are a lot of obvious errors in those reports (details of these torpedoes were classified also for the german crews, and this was among the first information available for the allies, so it might be both guesswork or deliberate misinformation given by the german POW's), but if you look at the TV in the U-505 exibition, and the TXI at the U-534 exibition, they both seem to have a blank brass finish, so that's probably the best answer.

[Natter]

Your recent rednderings are striking (the real thing would surely not look so perfect and shiny ;-) ). However, it seem to differ from your previous models - like the drawing you have in your signature (for example it's lacking many details, and the warhead colour is almost black). Is it a different model?

[Natter]

In the reports from interrogation of the german crew of U-172, they refer to the hydrophones in the seeker of the G7s(TV) as "blanke metallteile" (blank metalparts).

The reports are available online. I don't remember where - maybe through uboatarchive.net, but here is a drawing and some TV/TXI seeker photos:

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Natter and NZSnowman,


Sadly the TXI in Birkenhead now sports a worn light grey, similar to Hellgrau 50 and the nose seems to have been blanked off by some opaque material, my guess is that the detector head itself was removed and examined by the Danish navy. The second picture may be of more use, although small it was taken during the salvage operation, before the Danish navy got there hands on it.


Regards
Jon

[Natter]

my guess is that the detector head itself was removed and examined by the Danish navy. The second picture may be of more use, although small it was taken during the salvage operation, before the Danish navy got there hands on it.

I was in touch with the guys doing the salvage a few years back. As far as I know, the operation was a private venture, with danish and dutch EOD-personell handling the torpedoes and other armament/ammunition on board.
The submarine had 13 torpedoes onboard, including 5 G7s(TXI) "Zaunkönig II".  They picked parts from 4 of those before they were scrapped, so the torpedo on display is the sole survivor.

Your photos is the same/identical as I posted above: If you look at my photo #4 and #5, they show the torpedo at it's current position before and after painting (there are also other photos showing the "refurbishing" being done in Birkenhead).

When a museum/collection choose to exibit a german WW2 torpedo outdoors they need to paint it, otherwise the corrosion will render it completly rusty after a few days, due to the low quality steel. Sadly, they often go for paint/color at hand, in stead of doing a little research, like for instanse the guys in Chicago did with their TV's (I haven't been there myself, but judging from available photos I think they have chosen a too dark grey colour for the warhead, compared to the seeker with original paint we have here in Norway).

Btw - here is a photo of the Kf warhead on display in Denmark (I don't know wether it's the same now on display in UK, but I assume so).

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Natter,


I realised that my pictures were more or less the same as yours after I had posted them.


To paint something the right colour, after a bit of research, costs no more than the incorrect colour, given that the whole of the U 534 is painted approximately Dunkelgrau 51,(wrong) it is a subject that annoys me, along with the sheet metal repair to the upper bow area and the B&Q deck(ing) there has been very little attempt to repair/refurbish the U 534 to it's original look by MerseyTravel.


Whilst the recovery of the U 534 was a privately funded project, (mostly by Karsten Ree) I was under the impression that the EOD team was Danish navy and that the bulk of the 3.7cm and the 2cm ammo and the TIIIs were destroyed on site.


Your number of torpedoes is interesting, I assume that comes from Smit Tak, which would make it more accurate than any of the other reports I have, previously I have found various figures ranging from 14 to 22, with the number of TXIs ranging from 3 to 5.


Regards
Jon

[Natter]

To paint something the right colour, after a bit of research, costs no more than the incorrect colour, given that the whole of the U 534 is painted approximately Dunkelgrau 51,(wrong) it is a subject that annoys me, along with the sheet metal repair to the upper bow area and the B&Q deck(ing) there has been very little attempt to repair/refurbish the U 534 to it's original look by MerseyTravel.

Yes. The topic of german torpedo colours are kind of complex (ref this thread), but it's not hard to get it more or less correct. Almost all torpedoes on display in museums worldwide is "flawed" in that respect (and most certainly other objetcs as well...)

Whilst the recovery of the U 534 was a privately funded project, (mostly by Karsten Ree) I was under the impression that the EOD team was Danish navy and that the bulk of the 3.7cm and the 2cm ammo and the TIIIs were destroyed on site.
Your number of torpedoes is interesting, I assume that comes from Smit Tak, which would make it more accurate than any of the other reports I have, previously I have found various figures ranging from 14 to 22, with the number of TXIs ranging from 3 to 5.

I was in contact with a couple of the danish and a dutch participants. The torpedonumber comes from Capt Finn Linnemann, leader of the RDaN EOD-team.

Btw, here is an article on the topic:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19930826&id=5vghAAAAIBAJ&sjid=taIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1269,4612419

[NZSnowman]

Your recent rednderings are striking (the real thing would surely not look so perfect and shiny ;-) ). However, it seem to differ from your previous models - like the drawing you have in your signature (for example it's lacking many details, and the warhead colour is almost black). Is it a different model?

 Natter
 
Yes, two different models. All my drawing of U-1308 are 2D views using CorelDraw.

The newer drawing are 3D model using SketchUp and the models are rendered in Maxwell Render Suite. The ‘perfect and shiny’ look is cause by me not know how to set the correct lighting. Currently the lighting source is set for full outdoor sunshine that is why it looks so ‘perfect and shiny’.

[dougie47]

Hello gents,
 
Here is a colour photo (showing a dark grey warhead) you might like -

http://thescuttlefish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/torp-huge.jpg

Another is below (from U 995: Das U-Boot vor dem Marine-Ehrenmal in Laboe by Eckard Wetzel) -



I note that the oval plates are not covered with grease. I always thought these were inspection covers, is this correct?

Does anyone know what these oval covers were made of? Aluminium perhaps? They are a lighter colour than the steel bodies of the torpedo.

Thanks for any help.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie
 

[Natter]

Here is a colour photo (showing a dark grey warhead) you might like -

It's the famous "Aruba-torpedo" (there's more records and photos from the incident on a dedicated website, which I don't remember the name of now). In addition to Life magazine, there were also a report in National Geographic.
The early Pi-G7a-AZ mechanical impact pistol (like the one in the photo of the G7e(TII)) was very dangerous to handle as the the tiny lockingscrews for the firing pins could break very easy. Very shortly after these photos were taken, the warhead detonated, killing several dutch EOD-personell in the proces of removing the pistol from the warhead.

I note that the oval plates are not covered with grease. I always thought these were inspection covers, is this correct?

Yes - for the batterychamber (mainly for venting of gases caused by recharging and preheating).

Does anyone know what these oval covers were made of? Aluminium perhaps? They are a lighter colour than the steel bodies of the torpedo.

It's a good question: The hatches are identical in size, shape and construction to the gyroscope-hatch on both the G7a and G7e torpedoes. The hatches on the torpedo on display in Chicago (U-505) seem to be of the same sort of steel as the hull, although other museums show a lighter "colour"). My best educated guess: The hatches were nickle-plated or made of aluminium. The latter is not very likely due to costs (the main point of the G7e vs the G7a was the low production costs, so why spend a lot of expensive materials on the G7e, when it wasn't needed. Nickle-plating wasn't cheap either though: It's a little mystery I guess). The G7e's available to me, are all painted.
The reason for not greasing the hatches would surely be because of the need for regulary opening.

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
Thanks for the info, it was just what I was looking for.

I have another similar question. It regards the fin colour. In most of the photos the fins look like the same colour as the steel body. But I have seen a few photos in which the fins look white. Here are some scans (from German U-Boat of WWII (2) - Ground Power Special Issue June 97) -




I realise that most fins will be steel but do you think the fins in the photos above could be white? Or perhaps it is a trick of the light and it is actually nickel?

 
Note that on the top photo we can see one of the inspection panels and it isn't the same as the fins.

 
Cheers,

 
Dougie
 
 

[Natter]

Here are some scans (from German U-Boat of WWII (2) - Ground Power Special Issue June 97)

Nice photos. I don't think I have that book...

A few comments to the top photo: It's either staged for the photographer, or they have just finished regulating the depthmechanism (the airhose is attached to the "regelstutzen" and provides lowpressure air for the depthrudder servoengine), and are starting to prepare for gyroscope-regel (closing the hatch, attaching the indicator and scale to the siderudder). For this operation, the gyroscope airregulator should be fed hight-pressure air through the startervalve in the enginecompartment.
The torpedo is a G7e(TI) or G7e(TIII), but the aftsection with gyroscope/depthmechanism and ruddercontrol are identical to the G7a(TI).

I realise that most fins will be steel but do you think the fins in the photos above could be white? Or perhaps it is a trick of the light and it is actually nickel?

The G7e had no nickel-plating. This were only found on the early (prewar/early war production) G7a(TI), as a corrosion-protection. The nickel-plating were done on the aftsection, tailpiece and propellers. I assume it was done mainly to prevent corrosion from the powder/flames of the propulsioncharge used in the tubes of surfaceships.
It was stopped due to hight cost and sparse resources (for the same reason most torpedoparts of brass and bronze were exchanged with ordinary steel during the course of the war). The G7e were only used on submarines (and to some extend on S-Boote), so the effect of powder wasn't very relevant either way.

I have never seen/heard of german WW2 torpedoes on surface vessels or regular submarines being painted, besides the warhead/pistol and the exersicehead. I think what you see in the photo is just the light shining (a clean metal hull is very shiny - ref for example photos taken of unpainted torpedoes in museums).

Note that on the top photo we can see one of the inspection panels and it isn't the same as the fins.

I'm not sure what you mean? As you can see, the guy sitting on the floor is holding the hatch for the gyroscoperoom. The three batteryhatches (on top of the batterychamber) and the hatch for access to the batteryconnectors etc on starboard top side) would be similar (although it's not clear wether they were made of steel and/or coated with something).
I suspect you are refeferring to the panel in front of the airhose? This is the panel covering the depthmechanism (it's fastened with numerous screws). It is made of steel and has the exact same finish as the steel hull. However, you can se a darker colour ring, and that's painted on (green colour) to indicate that the torpedo has been fitted with the improved (TA-II) depthmechanism, which (along with failing magnetic pistols) was the reason for the catastrophic german "torpedokrise" in the first year of the war (torpedoes going too deep, pistols either not working or detonating prematurly). You can see it very well on the bottom photo as well.

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
Thanks for all the info. Agreed, it will just be the light shining on the metal fins rather than white paint.
 
There is a good photo in Axel Urbanke's Suppliers Of The Grey Wolves book showing a torpedo being transferred at sea. It shows the markings "PiG7H" clearly on the side. You may already have it but if not then you can send me a PM with your email and I can send you a scan.
 
This isn't about colours but might be of general interest to you. Here are some photos from the Stromness Museum in Orkney of a piece of one of the torpedoes fired by U 47 at HMS Royal Oak in Scapa Flow -


 



I remember the piece being heavier than it looks.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[Natter]

There is a good photo in Axel Urbanke's Suppliers Of The Grey Wolves book showing a torpedo being transferred at sea. It shows the markings "PiG7H" clearly on the side. You may already have it but if not then you can send me a PM with your email and I can send you a scan.

Hmm... I'm on constant watch for any books/publications etc regarding german torpedoes but you have now mentioned two titles new to me. The first one gives me a hard time: I can't find any reference to it. The other I can only find two available of - in the US (and at a terrible price).

Well, until I'm able to purchase the book, I'd be very happy to get the scan!

"Pi-G7H" is the first designation for the standard mechanical pistol, later renamed to "Pi-1" - it's the one you can see in my avatar btw.

This isn't about colours but might be of general interest to you. Here are some photos from the Stromness Museum in Orkney of a piece of one of the torpedoes fired by U 47 at HMS Royal Oak in Scapa Flow

Yes, I have seen those G7e remains before. As it happens, Prien was also effected by the faulty torpedoes during the "torpedokrise" when attacking Scapa Flow. I don't remember how many dud's he experienced, but he was not happy when reporting back to Dönitz...

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,

The Japanese one is rare and out of print. Good photos but no more of any torpedoes other than the ones I posted.

The Suppliers book by Urbanke is superb but it has a high price to reflect the content.

Yes, Prien was not too happy with torpedoes and this led to his famous dummy rifle comment. I have gone through the nine U 47 patrols and these are the number of torpedoes which did not hit a target. Some are obviously just misses due to crew error etc. but there were many caused by torpedoes -

Patrol 1 - Number of misses 1 - Number fired 2
Patrol 2 (scapa ) - Number of misses 3 - Number fired 7
Patrol 3 - Number of misses 11 - Number fired 14
Patrol 4 - Number of misses 1 - Number fired 2
Patrol 5 - Number of misses 10 - Number fired 10
Patrol 6 - Number of misses 9 - Number fired 14
Patrol 7 - Number of misses 7 - Number fired 14
Patrol 8 - Number of misses 4 - Number fired 12
Patrol 9 - Number of misses 10 - Number fired 12

This gives a total of 56 misses out of 87 fired (I don't have KTBs for patrol 10 as the boat was lost), meaning 64% of all fired did not reach the targets. Prien and Endrass would have been firing a lot of them and they were capable men.

The KTB entry of 12th Dec 39 reads "Fehlschuss, Fehlschuss!!" as the frustration is quite evident.

I am quite glad the KM had issues with the torpedoes. On the 5th patrol in Astafjord in Norway, U 47 attacked two cruisers and two 30,000 ton troop transports (with I presume thousands of men on board). The death toll would have been horrendous if the weapons had functioned correctly.

Have you seen torpedo shooting reports from KTBs? If not I can scan one for you to see.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[Natter]

The Japanese one is rare and out of print. Good photos but no more of any torpedoes other than the ones I posted.
The Suppliers book by Urbanke is superb but it has a high price to reflect the content.

I will keep looking...

Yes, Prien was not too happy with torpedoes and this led to his famous dummy rifle comment. I have gone through the nine U 47 patrols and these are the number of torpedoes which did not hit a target. Some are obviously just misses due to crew error etc. but there were many caused by torpedoes.
This gives a total of 56 misses out of 87 fired (I don't have KTBs for patrol 10 as the boat was lost), meaning 64% of all fired did not reach the targets. Prien and Endrass would have been firing a lot of them and they were capable men.

I can recommend David Wright's thesis from 2004, "Wolves Without Teeth: The German Torpedo Crisis in World War Two" (free for downloaed in pdf format here: http://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/history_etd/ ).
I haven't read it in a few years, but it goes into quite a few technical details, and even mentions the markings on the torpedoes with improved engines, depthmechansims etc (as this being a modellers forum, and the topic is german torpedo colours :-) ).

I am quite glad the KM had issues with the torpedoes. On the 5th patrol in Astafjord in Norway, U 47 attacked two cruisers and two 30,000 ton troop transports (with I presume thousands of men on board). The death toll would have been horrendous if the weapons had functioned correctly.
Have you seen torpedo shooting reports from KTBs? If not I can scan one for you to see.

Yes, I think the allied was very fortunate by the german torpedo crisis...

I know both Jerry Mason and Ken Dunn (+ Maciek - "SnakeDoc") from our common topic of interest, and I have quite a few copies of german schussmeldungen from Jerry (he and Ken has been doing a lot of research and analysing of hundreds of german torpedofirings). Jerry also done a lot of analyzing of the german Uboat-KTB's: http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBList.htm

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
That is an excellent thesis, thanks very much for bringing it to our attention. I always thought the crisis would be a good subject for a research paper so it looks like it has not been covered.
To go back to colours, I have seen a few photos of torpedoes on a barge in Lorient around 1940. One of the photos is on page 5 of this thread (posted by SG on 13 July 2013). Looks like they have practice warheads? Have you any idea what colour the lines are on the warhead - white or yellow maybe?

The reason I am interested is because I am working on a 1/35th diorama set in Lorient in December 1940. This will include 6 torpedoes aboard two train gondolas (one of them will be being moved by crane from a gondola). I would like to have 3 real warheads and 3 practice warheads. The issue I have is that I wondered if Lorient in late 1940 would only have live warheads? I am not sure if Lorient would have any practice torpedoes as all the U-boats at this time were rushed back to the Atlantic as soon as possible, leaving no time for practice sessions. I would think all the practice firing would be done back in Germany and the Baltic. Does this sound correct or do you think practice firing wouild have taken place in Lorient?

The photo SG posted does suggest that torpedoes with practice warheads were present at Lorient in 1940 so that is why I am confused.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[Natter]

To go back to colours, I have seen a few photos of torpedoes on a barge in Lorient around 1940. One of the photos is on page 5 of this thread (posted by SG on 13 July 2013). Looks like they have practice warheads? Have you any idea what colour the lines are on the warhead - white or yellow maybe?

I believe the conclusion was those being most likely captured french torpedoes. Unfortunately, I have no idea about colours of french torpedomaterial whatsoever (french torpedoes are generally not very well documented).

German exersiceheads (both Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe) are painted with red and white "horisontal" lines. I have seen examples of larger surfacevessels painting their name onto the heads - presumably for id-purposes, as I reckon they had their own heads (you would not see it on U-boats and S-Boats). See the photos I have provided in the link below.

The reason I am interested is because I am working on a 1/35th diorama set in Lorient in December 1940. This will include 6 torpedoes aboard two train gondolas (one of them will be being moved by crane from a gondola). I would like to have 3 real warheads and 3 practice warheads. The issue I have is that I wondered if Lorient in late 1940 would only have live warheads?

It's a nice scene, but I'm not sure about the realism:
Depending on the distance and means of transport, the torpedoes would have been transported with warheads mounted, or with the heads in separate, special steelcontainers (I think I have posted some photos earlier). Pistols would always be transported separately in dedicated transportcontainers (photos also posted before). I don't think those open railway-wagons with stacked torpedoes w/warheads look realistic: Even though I can't refer to documents, I am sure that would only have been done for shorter distances.
Exersiceheads however, would most likely never have been mounted on a torpedo for transport besides between the workshop and the harbour, as they were quite delicate. I'm sure there would have been special crates for transport of exersiceheads over any longer distance.
The warhead and pistol would always follow the torpedo, while exersiceheads would be kept at the arsenal/-kommando/vessel, so they would not be transported like the torpedoes anyway.

I am not sure if Lorient would have any practice torpedoes as all the U-boats at this time were rushed back to the Atlantic as soon as possible, leaving no time for practice sessions. I would think all the practice firing would be done back in Germany and the Baltic. Does this sound correct or do you think practice firing wouild have taken place in Lorient?

There are several reasons for doing exersice-shots:
 * Training of personell (both new and operational crews, as well as technical/logistics personell).
 * Technical verification and ranging (especially with new torpedoes or torpedoes having been repaired etc).

Initial torpedoranging would have been done at the TVA-ranges, and initial training of personell would have been done at the different schools and their training areas. However, exersicetorpedoes would for sure have been used in all areas (for example: Numerous testshots have been documented from Torpedokommando Bakervågen in Bergen, Norway - often by submarines in surfaceposition, for testing of both torpedoes and onboard equipment like tubes, compressors, sights etc). At sea, large surfacevessels would have been able to do training on their own, without the need of dedicated vessels for "fishing" and maintaining the torpedo afterwards.

So, I definately think exerciseheads would have been present at any torpedoarsenal/-kommando/-werkstatt.



Here is a zip-file with some photos of german exersiceheads: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38692668/TP-Heads.zip

Note that Type 1210 and 1215 were the common heads for G7a(TI), G7e(TII) and G7e(TIII) torpedoes. The 1210 was an early type with only one blowingmechanism (often known to fail), replaced by the improved dual-mechanism type 1215.

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
Thanks for all the information, it is just what I was looking for. I think I will keep away from those torpedoes with the lines at Lorient.
 
Thanks also for the zip file - very useful and I am much obliged to you.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie
 
 

[Natter]

I got some photos from a friend in Poland today, showing german G7a(TI) and G7es(TV) torpedoes at the Polish Navy Musuem in Gdynya. Illustrates how incredible the nickle-plating works to protect against corrosion...

[SG]

Amazing. thanks for sharing!

[Rokket]

wow, great stuff!  Would love to see this museum.

[Natter]

To paint something the right colour, after a bit of research, costs no more than the incorrect colour, given that the whole of the U 534 is painted approximately Dunkelgrau 51,(wrong) it is a subject that annoys me, along with the sheet metal repair to the upper bow area and the B&Q deck(ing) there has been very little attempt to repair/refurbish the U 534 to it's original look by MerseyTravel.

Here is a danish site with some photos of the U-534 after it was raised: https://plus.google.com/photos/118382044826717870833/albums/6110537628293429521?banner=pwa&authkey=COiRosOGiP7biwE

[SG]

Hi,
I found another picture of a barge carrying excercise torpedoes very similar (if not the same) to the one i posted some time ago, which Dougie was writing about. Same colour pattern of the heads, better definition, details of the aft portion of the torpedoes.
Natter, I hope the image can add new details and help you to identify the nationality of the torpedoes (french/german).
Dougie, as you have already noticed, the barge is moored next to a type IX : perfect for the diorama you are planning to build!
Cheers!
SG 

[Natter]

Natter, I hope the image can add new details and help you to identify the nationality of the torpedoes (french/german).

Thanks, nice picture - is this from one of  Luc Braeuer's books as well?

The torpedoes appear to be german G7a(TI) - maybe early productions, but it's hard to be 100% sure from this photo which is lacking certain details on the aftsection.
I think I can see a guidingknob on the tail and on the enginesection, so they are probably meant for use from a U-boat (logical anyway from the context).

The heads puzzles me though: The pattern is not the usual "standard" (although I have seen it before on a photo showing a torpedo being loaded on a sub), but the most intrigueing part is the lack of any specific details that should identify the type - like the blowing mechanisms etc.

I wonder is this could be G7a(TIü) torpedoes - ie the slightly modified TI used for training purposes on schulboote..?  The TIü had the old depthmechansim (could explain the lack of the green ring around the cover for the depthmechanism on the photo). Furthermore, the TIü was equipped with a simple, empty (ie not waterfilled) exersicehead without any blowingmechanism giving the TIü very short range and positive buoyancy (the purpose of the TIü's was to enable a high number of shots at low cost and with low stress on the torpedoes, giving the crew in the U-boat school more training in shorter time). That could explain the unusual pattern on the heads as well, distinguishing them from proper exersiceheads...

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,

That does sound very plausible. Would I be right in saying that the TIü was used in mid-1940 when the new depth-keeping apparatus was brought into service? And that in the summer of 1940 they had quite a few of the old depth-keeping apparatus left over and so used them on the TIü (depth keeping wouldn't be essential in training shots). 

The only thing is that I am not sure that Lorient was used for school boats? The background does look very much like Lorient but I wouldn't like to say for sure that it is definitely this base.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Natter]

Would I be right in saying that the TIü was used in mid-1940 when the new depth-keeping apparatus was brought into service?

I have twisted my brain to remember were I found the TIü information - it's not mentioned in any of the major books, but no luck so far (it could be in a microfilm from NARA, but that's hours of manual searching...). Anyway: I don't think there was any more info besides that I already have put up on the Wikipedia-article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_torpedoes_of_Germany ), so I don't know when these torpedoes (TIü and TIü Lut II) were put into service. From the reason they did, I would assume it was more likely later than sooner though.

And that in the summer of 1940 they had quite a few of the old depth-keeping apparatus left over and so used them on the TIü (depth keeping wouldn't be essential in training shots).

Well, I don't think they did much rebuilding of the torpedoes (hence the system of painting on stripes and circles to identify torpedoes with new engines and/or depthmechanisms). If I remember correctly, the depth-setting problem with the first mechanisms was due to long-term storage onboard with numerous changes in airpressure, and it would probably not be a big problem when used on U-boats on shortrange patrols? Also, the "old" torpedoes could have been dedicated for use on surface-vessels with no problems. But, of course: They would use the "low end" material for training (just for the record: Depth-setting was absolutely cruical for training shots, as they fired upon other vessels, and could risk hitting the hull if there was a failure. It wouldn't be a problem if the torpedo went a bit too deep though.

The only thing is that I am not sure that Lorient was used for school boats? The background does look very much like Lorient but I wouldn't like to say for sure that it is definitely this base.

My main interest is related to the the technical aspect of the torpedoes, and I have very limited knowledge of the organisation and operations of U-boats. I bet some of the guys on Uboat.net or Jerry, Thorsten etc might have an idea?

[SG]

Thanks, nice picture - is this from one of  Luc Braeuer's books as well?

Natter, I found the picture in the book "U-boat Owner Workshop Manual" edited by Haynes. The picture source given in the book is"Triangle". I tried to look for it in the bibliography but there's nothing.  is Triangle a photo archive? dunno.


Excellent analysys Natter, as usual.


I have No ideas about the location either, Dougie. the barge's profile and her outer edge, the background and the jetty look very similar to the ones in the other picture that i have already posted. Also, the torpedo with no circles painted on the head which is being lifted by the crane could very well be be the same one (with no decorated head and with the wooden support on top) in the previously posted picture.. 
   

[dougie47]

Hi gents,
 
I've had a closer look at the location and compared it to other photos showing the same torpedoes on the same barge. I'm pretty certain it is Lorient, either in late 40 or early 41.
 
The torpedo barge was moored next to another barge with a small crane on it (number 4). This torpedo crane was located just to the east side of what I believe is the pontoon Martiniere. There was enough space between the crane barge and the Martiniere for a U-boat (either IX or VII) to be moored.

There is a photo showing the Martiniere, the torpedo barge and the crane barge all together with the 150 ton crane, which was a very distinctive crane seen in mnay photos of Lorient. The photo also shows dock 5 and 7, on the east side of the Scorff (these are also very distinctive in the Lorient landscape) and are commonly seen in many U-boat photos at the base. So I'm pretty sure it is Lorient.
 
Natter, yes you are right, depth keeping must have been important due to the issue of hitting the hull on practice shots.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[SG]

Dougie while you were writing i compared the pictures too and YES, the pictures match:the 10.5 cm gun of the type IX is also visible. Lorient, pretty much sure, the picture caption of the top picture said it was taken in Lorient. I can't recall where i found the picture i posted at the time though, i found another identical one with a better definition in the haynes manual, but the caption says nothing about the place. 

[Natter]

is Triangle a photo archive? dunno.

Me neither...

the torpedo with no circles painted on the head which is being lifted by the crane could very well be be the same one (with no decorated head and with the wooden support on top) in the previously posted picture..

It's obviously the same barge/situation, judging by your latest photo. Also, they all seem to be the same type of torpedoes/heads, although on some heads the paint have worn off (it was very common for the exerciseheads to need repaint with regular intervalls).

Your new photo is sharper than the one posted earlier in this thread, and I'm getting more convinced that these are actually TIü's, as the only other option for G7a(TI) would be the type 1210 or 1215 exersice heads.

[Natter]

While I'm online - here are a couple of photos I found in another forum recently.

ubungstorpedo-Bergung.jpg - Interesting, as it's the only photo I have seen showing the name of the ship (T-Boot "Jaguar") on the torpedo itself...
im einsatz.jpg - Showing a G7a(TI) being maintained on a surfacevessel (they are running the engine by means of low-pressure air applied via the waterchamber - judging by the other tolls visible, they are probably doing a "after-shot" routine, cleaning out the engine and the valves with kerosene).
Bremen 1945.jpg -  This appears to be torpedo mock-ups. Never seen this before (besides partly, in a Wochenshau showing them in use testing new torpedotubes at a factory).

[Natter]

I'm finishing off with two current photos from the torpedobattery at Herdla (originally established by the germans as MAA 504 Torpedobatterie Hjelte).
Here we currently have one original G7a(TI), nine T1 mod 1 torpedoes (ie the ex-german G7a(TI), modified with wireguidance in the late 60's and fully computerized control in the 90's), two TP613 and three TP612 torpedoes (+ some heads, pistols, fully stacked torpedoworkshop etc).

[SG]

Natter am glad you finally identified those TIü's!! Also, i love the new pictures you found!
Dougie you were (obviously) right about Lorient, i did some photo research and found a plan of the Scorff, with the barge and its distinctive crane shown both in the technical drawing and in the lower left picture (circled). moored alongside the crane barge there's probably the torpedoes barge. Also, check the sovrastructure of the ponton Martiniere in the frame, which matches just fine with the sovrastructure of the ponton in the torpedoes picture. It's definitely Lorient (and that picture's caption was correct about the location, every now and then there's still some correct caption ).
Good!

[dougie47]

Hi SG,

That's the same map I referred to, from one of Luc Braeuer's Lorient books. I think in 1940 and 1941 U-boats usually moored off the pontoons beside the Quai du persistyle. But I've also seen them off the more northerly pontoons such as the Psyche too. Luc's books were very useful as they allowed me to figure out where the locations were in all the U 47 photos.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[SG]

Dougie, my congratulations for your 360° knowledge of Uboots, and for the sharp-eye! Luc Braeuer's books are magnificent, real must-have. I am happy we all came to the conclusions that: a) those torpedoes were german; b) the scene of the picture is set in Lorient, possibly 1940/41.

Natter: It's amazing that geman torpedoes were in use after the war and received updating with wire-guidance!
A question from an ignorant me: did the practice heads contain explosive? did they detonate? if so the torpedo couldn't be recuperated and re-used. can you enlighten me?

Cheers and have a good weekend both of you!
SG

[Natter]

Natter: It's amazing that geman torpedoes were in use after the war and received updating with wire-guidance!

Sorry, for a late reply: yet again, there's no notice from the forum.

Yes, both danish and norwegian navies made their own wireguidance-version of the G7a(TI) in the mid 60's. The danish version was designated "T1T" (T for "trådstyrt", ie wireguided), while the norwegian version was designated "T1 mod 1". I don't remember when the danish T1T were phased out, but they didn't use them as long as us. Both mods were similar, but not compatible (we have a couple of the danish modded gyroscopes at Herdla).
The T1 mod 1 received 3 additional modifications - the last one in 1992, when the old electronics was replaced with a fully computerized module, introducing two-way datacommunication with the firecontrolsystem. Originally, the controlsystem only transmitted single pulses - each pulse changing the course by one degree port/starboard. After the modification, the torpedo would receive full information on the targets position, course and speeed, as well as it's own position, waypoints etc (we could also launch torpedoes continuously, not having to wait for the previous engagement to finish: The FCS could handle 50 targets and 8 torpedoes in the sea, also reassigning targets after launch ++). There were also a newly developed speedsensor fitted to the torpedo, to get more relibale speedmeasurments. This way, the torpedo could track the target based on the last updated info in case the guidance wire broke (a common problem - especially with salvos of 2-4 torpedoes). If the torpedo missed the expected location of the target, a computer-controlled "search-pattern" would be initiated.
The torpedo was finally phased  out in 1999, replaced by the more modern swedish TP613 (a combined wireguided/acoustic seeker torpedo).

Mechanically, the german torpedo worked just as well as they did in the 1940's - even after hundreds of exersiceshots. The only problem (and what finally sealed it's fate) was increased internal corrosion of the airtanks, making it too hazardous filling it with pressurized air (for the last year or so, there were restrictions on max pressure, and we could only use torpedoes that had been x-rayed and inspected thoroughly for corrosion and that met a minimum standard for thickness of the goods in the airtank).

[Natter]

A question from an ignorant me: did the practice heads contain explosive? did they detonate? if so the torpedo couldn't be recuperated and re-used. can you enlighten me?

Excersiseheads contain no explosives - the sole purpose of it is to ensure the torpedo can be salvaged after the run to be reused.

There are several types of exersice heads, but the german heads (and most common during that period) was waterfilled with it's own flasks of pressurized air. When launched, the blowing mechanism in the head would be activated, and when the torpedo slowed down at the end of it's run, it would open a valve for the air, blowing the water out of the head through a kingston-valve (one-way). This way, the torpedo would float vertically in the water and could be picked up by a salvage vessel and brought back to shore for maintenance and storage until the next exercise.

To ensure positive buyoancy, the torpedo would only be filled with as much air as needed for the shot (ie according to the set distance of the run). For a war-shot the 576 litre airtank would always be filled to max pressure (ie 200 bar), actually giving some additonal explosive effect in the target - depending on the residual pressure at time of impact.

Most modern torpedoes are electrically powered, and they will often have an empty "excersicemodule" added to ensure positive buoyancy after the run. Also, some torpedoes have an inflateable "balloon" packed in the head, for this purpose (I have attached a photo of the norwegian version TP613 - the original version had a different style "balloon").

I have attached a couple of photos showing german WW2 exersiceheads, one showing the torpedo floating. The smoke is from a canister of carbide: When exposed to seawater and then air, it will generate thick yellow smoke, to aid the fishingvessel locating it (the smoke was hazardous, and in RNoN it was replaced by an electronic directional sender in the mid 80's).
The other photos shows the norwegian version TP613 floating and being picked up by the "fishing vessel".

[SG]

Natter, thank you very much for the reply which contains, as usual, very hi quality and detailed technical information: what a longevity for a project (the G7) which, if am not wrong, dates back to WWI!
And thank you for educting me about the practice heads.
In the meanwhile i managed to find out the picture i missed to have clarified the sequence of torpedo loading at Lorient: torpedo barge-crane barge-Uboat-mooring ship

Cheers and thanks again!

[Natter]

what a longevity for a project (the G7) which, if am not wrong, dates back to WWI!

Well, if you consider the predecessors then yes:
The G/6 and G/7 torpedoes (50cm diametre) were developed around 1905, and was among the main types used in WW1. Skipping a number of other modellines and variants, the G7s came around 1920 and then the G7v was ready a couple of years later. The G7v introduced some new features and was the direct predecessor for the G7a which was the first german 53,34cm torpedo and ready around 1925 (it was fielded - ie operational on german vessels - in 1930). It came as a direct consequence of the new "torpedostandard" of 21" / 533,4mm).
Some of the older designs, like the G250, G/7 and G7v, also saw limited use for a good part of WW2.

In the meanwhile i managed to find out the picture i missed to have clarified the sequence of torpedo loading at Lorient: torpedo barge-crane barge-Uboat-mooring ship

Good   The torpedo in the photo is a G7e (TII or TIII variant) btw.

[SG]

Hi,
some more ideas for your projects and why not, research:

Nose-art: "mit liebe"



Inner part of middle-section's aft-end showing hidden details + propeller-section



propellers details


From the (really outstanding) book "S-boote" by Jean Philippe Dallies-Labourdette, edited by Histoire & collections which i finally managed to purchase
Cheers!
SG

[Natter]

Inner part of middle-section's aft-end showing hidden details + propeller-section

Well, that's actually the part of the hull covering the engine - it slides over the engine when the airtank and aftsections are joined. The different tubings (air for pressurizing the fluids and water/decaline/oil from the tanks) are all mounted in one common coupling. In addition to the main airpipe from the airtank these are the only connections between the two sections, making it fairly easy to divide/connect the torpedo.

propellers details

4-blade, ie: early production.

From the (really outstanding) book "S-boote" by Jean Philippe Dallies-Labourdette, edited by Histoire & collections which i finally managed to purchase

Nice photos - the last two are also found in other books, so I presume they are from Bundesarchiv.

[SG]

The different tubings (air for pressurizing the fluids and water/decaline/oil from the tanks) are all mounted in one common coupling. In addition to the main airpipe from the airtank these are the only connections between the two sections, making it fairly easy to divide/connect the torpedo.

That's exactly why i posted the picture for: i was damn curious to know what those cables (pipes actually) were meant for!
Thanks Natter, always a pleasure to read your replies! 

[Natter]

Some illustration/photos:

EDIT: Ooops... I was a bit too hasty when adding the text, and I see now that I have switched the water and air-pipes in the torpedocoupling (image 6.jpg). Sorry.

[SG]

Whoa! Stunning piece of machinery

[Natter]

Was the center of gravity marking on all torpedos?

Probably not... I have seen lot of photos showing no markings. I have not seen any documents with guidelines for this, and have no idea if there was a certain colour to be used.

Well, I stumbled upon a drawing from a german G7e manuel, and it shows the markings with specified color "grün", so it seems green is the colour to use for almost all markings on the torpedo.

[bgfreer]

I came across this thread when looking for details of G7a parts that I have recently received.


According to the chap who supplied them - they came from a search of a military dump in Weimar.


The speed controller is similar but different to the one shown.


There is also a hatch a connecting rod and two other parts. The ordnance code is from Bundaberg.


Most have a wavy line/star marking.


Can you assist with confirming where on the engine these parts lie ?


Thanks

[Natter]

Can you assist with confirming where on the engine these parts lie ?

speed controller.jpg:
This is a (heavy corroded) speedcontroller. It's similar to the one you can see in photos I have posted before, but the "torpedocoupling" has the part from the airtank connected, thus making it to appear a little different.


DSC_0012.jpg:
This is the oil-distribution mechanism. It's mounted on the front cover of the engineblock and being run via a gear mounted on the engine's crankshaft (acting on the gear at the left in your photo).
It distributes "bursts" of oil to lubricate the different mechanisms in the torpedo (foremost the engine itself and the propeller-axle/crossdrive).

The vertical shaft on your photo is a link connecting to a rod driving the torpedo's distance-mechanism/"brake-mechanism". The "brake-mechanism" (in lack of a better english word...) keeps the torpedo's depthrudder locked downwards (typically at about 10 degrees) for the initial running distance (adjustable - typically 150-200m). When the engine-revolutions have turned this mechanism from the set distance to zero, a lever activates a rod lifting the hook locking the depthmechanism's servoengine, allowing the depthmechansim to function and control the rudder.
The distance-mechansim works in a similar way (but with a different gear, so it runs a lot slower): When it has moved down from the set distance (max 12000m), a lever will release the startinglever which again will shut off the main airsupply, as well as the supply of fuel, water and oil, making the engine stop and the torpedo slow down and seek to the surface.

On torpedoes equipped with a programsteering-device (ie Fat or Lut), there would also be a flexible axle connected to the left gear, transmitting the engine RPM's to the steeringdevice (to control the lenght of the straight legs and turns of the "zic-zac" running pattern).


DSC_0013.jpg:
The part on the right I think must belong to the depthmechanism (the axl transferring the movement of the pendolum to the servoengine), but it's different than the ones from the TA I and II mechanisms used after 1942, so again: An early variant I think.


DSC_0017.jpg:
This puzzles me (I'd like to see more photos from other sides, and measurements), but judging by all your photos, the parts comes from an early production torpedo, and there were several modifications from the first G7a(TI) version in 1925 to those being made later (and especially after 1940).
It might be an early variant of the seawater-pump (a simple gear-pump distributing seawater to the channels casted in the engineblock for cooling of the engine), but it's impossible to tell wihtout measurements and other photos.


DSC_0019.jpg:
Again, this would be very useful to see from other angles and some measurements... (is it the same as DSC_0017.jpg??)
Obviously it's mounted in the hull probably in the gyroscope compartment or an exersice-head, but other than confirming it's from a very early produced torpedo I can't tell exacly what it is right now (might not be from a G7a at all).


DSC_0023.jpg:
This is the hatch for the gyroscopecompartment. The iron ring on the front is an inlay of the hatch (which itself has been completely corroded), and the cross underneath is the part locking it in place (again: As this is made of brass, it's obvioulsy a very early produced torpedo).

[bgfreer]

Natter thank you - just what I had hoped from seeing your earlier informed replies - it sis much appreciated.


I attach pictures of what it looked like before i cleaned them up - 70+ years in the ground at Weimar were not kind.


The unknown part - I attach two other photos.


The top brass circle (pepperpot) had steel riveted around it - so I assumed it was on the outside of the hull. It is 55mm  on the shiny brass raised section and 87 mm on the outside diameter.


The bottom circle has an od of 15.25cm and has the remains of a steel edge that was spot welded onto the rim.


Total height is 75mm rising to max 85mm.


Does this help ?

[bgfreer]

A final question - the speed controller has the two brass forward plugs that have OL and Br inside the tops sections. Inside there are two screws with plastic plates - with numbers around the edge and the same OL and Br.


Any guidance on what the initials are for ?

[Natter]

Thanks. I'm none the wiser regarding this part though , but it's not from an ordinary G7a(TI) for sure. If all the parts are from the same torpedo, it must have been an early variant of something that was replaced later on (I can't figure out what though).

The germans did a lot of reseacrh and development on torpedoes during the war - especially on the ingolin (hydrogen peroxide) propulsion. Some of those torpedoes used the G7a as a basis, even with the standard G7a engine. As this part seems to have been some sort of intake for seawater, I suspect it might have been connected to something like that (as it happens, I got a few hundred pages and drawings of the german ingolintorpedoes just last week, but a quick browsing thorugh that material didn't show any similar part, although the quality of the drawings are quite poor...). This development resulted in a lot of experimental parts in addition to those that ended up as valid designs in production torpedoes.
The british and US occupied the TVA-facilities for over a year after the war doing their own tests and evaluation of the german torpedoes, and when finished they just collected everything they didn't need and would bring back to UK/US and dumped it in the sea not far from the former TVA-facilities. Today there are groups of people diving there and salvaging a lot of torpedoparts that they refurbish and sell to collectors. Therefore, there is a lot of "odd" parts floating around that doesn't seem to fit in with the known torpedosesigns. Wether this is such a part, or just happens to be part of another torpedo I can't tell.

In addition to the main TVA sites and torpedoranges in Eckernförde and Gotenhafen + the Marinewerft Wilhelmshafen, these are the other sources for manufacture of torpedoes and -parts:

 * Berliner Maschinenbau AG - former "Schwartzkopf" (Berlin)
 * Bergmann Elektricitäts Werke AG (Berlin-Wilhelmsruh.
 * Siemens-Schuckert Werke AG (Berlin-Siemensstadt)
 * Schäffer & Budenberg GmbH (Magdeburg-Buckau)
 * Deutsche Werke AG (Kiel)
 * Planeta Druckmaschinen-Werke AG (Radebul, Dresden)
 * Auto-Union AG (Zwickau)
 * Bergward Werke AG (Bremen)
 * Julius Pintsch AG (Berlin-Fürstenwalde)
 * Maschinenfabrik Buckau (Magdeburg)
 * Friedrich Krupp AG (Essen)
 * C.G. Haubold AG (Chemnitz)
 * Rehinmetall-Borsig AG (Düsseldorf)
 * Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken AG (Karlsruhe)
 * R. Stock & Co AG (Berlin-Marienfelde)
 * Harburger Eisen- und Bronzewerk AG (Hamburg-Harburg l)
 * Dreyer, Rosenkranz & Droop AG (Hanover)
 * Deutsche STAR Kugelhalter GmbH (Schweinfurt)
 * Heinrich H. Klüssendorf (Berlin-Spandau)

None of these sites are in close proximity to Weimar as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure if it's likely to be a dumpsite for parts originating from any of the factories involved with the german torpedomanufacture.
Perhaps your site is just a place used for dumping all kinds of junk, and thus the parts might be random parts from different torpedoes - even of different nationalities.

[Natter]

A final question - the speed controller has the two brass forward plugs that have OL and Br inside the tops sections. Inside there are two screws with plastic plates - with numbers around the edge and the same OL and Br.

There's no plastic in there, but perhaps a plate of bakelite or something (or perhaps there's a rubbergasket that has turned into a hard plastic-like substance).

The letters are "Öl" (oil) and "Br" = Brennstoff (fuel).
Behind those plugs you will find the nozzles regulating the amount of oil and fuel being passed on (hence the function of the speedregulator). There are one corresponding nozzle for each speed-setting (30/40/44kn - smallest opening for the lowest speed, largest opening for the highest speed). There's a similar nozzle behind the corroded plug for water (it was marked with a "W").

[Natter]

Here are some illustrations from M.Dv. Nr. 358A Torpedo G7a Zeichnungen (1941).

1: The arrangement of the engine and the gyroscope-compartment. You can see the gyro-hatch and it's locking-cross at the bottom, as well as the "claw" locking the servomotor for the depthrudders.

2: Showing the frontplate of the engine, and the oil-distribution mechanism

3: Details of the oil-distribution mechanism, and how it's connected to the distance- and "brake" mechanisms (here you also see the arrangement for locking the depthrudder: The claw is lifted as soon as the mechanism are turned down to zero).

4: Details of the depthmechanism. The axl marked "17" is the only possible candidate for the one in your photo "DSC_0013.jpg", although it's quite different in design...

5: Details of the speedregulator's construction.

[bgfreer]

Thank you Natter!


As a chemist I was struggling to get past Br = Bromine.


The drawings are very very helpful.

[Natter]

I got hold of some photos of german midget submarines taken after the german surrender.
Here is a cut showing details of a torpedo mounted on a Molch. It's the first I'v seen showing clearly that torpedoes used by the vessels of the Kleinkampfverbände was painted (obviously, also in camouflage patterns):

[SG]

Interesting subject Natter! I have that picture but i had never noticed the camo scheme: sharp eye, my congratulations!
Speaking of the K-Verband torpedoes camo patterns this is what i found out:
Molch: notice the 2-tone gray "hard edge" pattern on the molch and the 2-tone mottled camouflage (same grays) on the torpedo

Hai (experimental engine): curious camo. What looks like spayed lines of dark gray on both the torpedo and the main engine (rather than shadows projected from the above crane)
   
 

[Natter]

Hai (experimental engine): curious camo. What looks like spayed lines of dark gray on both the torpedo and the main engine (rather than shadows projected from the above crane)

Those are either shadows or strikes from fluids running down the hull.
The photo is a still from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFOW_7Bs9kI  (watch from 19:40)

[SG]

Good spot Natter! Looking at the video some of those lines are revealed to be shadows indeed but some seem not to be shadows (maybe some sort of streaking as you say). Thanks for linking the marvellous documentary,  i had missed that