U-45 WIP - Completed October 2019

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings,

After many delays and interruptions, I have finally found the time to start a work in progress topic on U-45.  This is sort of a continuation of the earlier topic about the early Type VIIB decks, but I thought it better to start fresh.  I wanted to build an early Type VIIB and selected U-45 because of the excellent Bundesarchive photos taken on the commissioning day of U-45 on 25 June 1938.  This project will include parts from the Revell Type VIIC kit and the Amati U-47 kit, both in 1/72 scale.  Based on test fit, the Amati brass deck fits very nicely into the Revell hull with just a few areas requiring attention.  The flooding vent arrangements on the Revell hull and conning tower will be modified to an early VIIB configuration using the excellent material prepared by Dougie.  The Amati brass deck will be modified to match the early VIIB hatch arrangement.  Other details will be scratch built or adapted from spare parts.

U-45 was the first of the Type VIIB's and appeared as follows in June 1938:





A comparison of conning towers - Amati U-47, Revell VIIC, and U-45 (modified Revell tower):




The early Type VIIB tower is smaller in length and width compared to the Type VIIC:


The pre-war U-boats carried a bronze eagle on the front of the tower.  I tried to scratch build this item, but I am not entirely satisfied with the result.  I might to try to get one from the Special Navy Type IIA kit:



Here the eagle is dry fitted to the tower:



Based on photos, the pre-war early VIIB's had a differently shaped housing for the attack periscope.  My attempt at scratch building this item:



A clear plastic doll eye with a scratch built photo etch handle was used to replicate the scope cover.

The circular flood vents on the conning tower sides of the early VIIB's have a unique pattern and arrangement.  The part from the Amati kit was not very accurate and I had a very difficult time trying to come up with a solution until I found some old photo etch railroad grating that was an almost perfect match for size, pattern and arrangement.  I had to use stretched sprue to fill in the holes along the edge of the open holes to match the configuration of U-45 in June 1938:






A close up of the tower showing the "flexible voice tube" equipment. Please note that many smaller details are missing at this point.  Things like the hatch latch, life belt attachments, flexible hose, hand grips, ladder rungs, and other items all need to be added:



Some more views of the conning tower.  Much is only dry fitted at this point which results in some odd alignment which will be corrected when the items are permanently attached:





And the last photo for this session showing the modified Revell tower on the Amati brass deck"



My plan is to complete the remaining small details on the conning tower and then progress to the hull.  I am mainly using photos of U-45 and other early VIIB's as my references along with the usual publications.  I can't find anything so far that shows if a compass was attached to front of the periscope housing like the VIIC boats - does anyone know about this?

Many thanks to everyone that has helped me so far with this project.  Please don't hesitate to ask questions or point out problems - your comments are always welcome.  More to come.

Regards,

Bill

[Siara]

Im so f***** excited about this project!
Good start Bill.
Im sitting in the front row, and watching with big bag of popcorn in my hand.
That is going to be fantastic project.

[Rokket]

Bill, really, really nice work, research, detail and execution! Oh, and like what Siara said!

[rabapla]

simply great!
and so different!!!

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

Fantastic work! All the details are excellent, particularly the attack periscope housing.

On the subject of the compass repeater attached to the attack periscope housing, I can't say for sure that U 45 would have had one in June 38 during commissioning. If I had to guess I'd say U 45 probably had one in June 1938. There are pre-war shots of U 46 with this repeater, and U 49 did have the repeater during her commissioning in August 1939.

Keep up the great work.

Cheers,

Dougie

[vonbulowfla]

yes i must say its going to be a great looking model . its refreshing to see a early  type 7 b . i was wondering other than the conning tower was the rest of the boat (  drains and main flood patterns )as that of a mid war type 7 b  ?:oif so one could make different boats early or mid war just by changing the conning tower and such . in any event great build and cant wait to see more!

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks everyone for your help and kind words.  I am not certain, but I think that U-45 may not have had the small hatch on the port side of the conning tower.  I think this is the deck gun ammunition pass through hatch.  It is visible on the starboard side photo, but I can't see it on the port side photo. Maybe just a trick of light or camera angle?  I was about to remove this hatch from my build, but was reluctant to do so at this point.    What do you think:






Thanks!

[Mr. Bill]

Hello vonbulow,

Regarding the question about the hull flooding patterns, I highly recommend that you refer to the excellent material prepared by Dougie on this subject.  I will be using this along with photos of U-45 to modify the Revell hull parts.  Generally, I believe that using the Revell VIIC hull for a VIIB mainly involves filling some existing holes and drilling new ones.  Certainly, there are probably other smaller differences also and there are several people here that know more about this than I do.   I think that in reality the hulls were not the same dimensions, but the Amati VIIB deck is nearly an exact fit with the Revell VIIC hull! There is at least one major problem which is where the kit part saddle tank on one side would have to be modified in order to accommodate some of the needed flooding vents.  The VIIB's had a long top row of forward flooding vents which will overlap with the kits saddle tank.   Either major surgery to modify the saddle tank or accepting a compromise to accuracy is required to overcome this problem.  Don't know what solution I will take at this point, but my skills as a styrene surgeon may not be up to the task.

Bill

[NZSnowman]

Hi Bill

I no export on the VIIB but looking at your picture of U-45 I think you are right, I can not see any hatch on port side also.

[Siara]

The hatch in mention was used for passing the shells from inside of the boat to the guy, whos job was to walk them to the loader. Theres the hatch on the starboard side- maybe they only needed one hatch. On later baats 2 hatches were present.

[dougie47]

Hi guys,

Interesting...there doesn't seem to be a hatch in that U 45 photo. Certainly Siara is right about it being present on later boats, with U 46, 47 and 48 being examples. It could be that it originally wasn't on U 45 and was added at some stage.

Although my U 47 modifications and colours article is available online, the accompanying drawings aren't. As U 45 and U 47 were similar you might refer to them.

There are full hull drawings for seven stages in the boat's career. Here is the first -


This is the tower comparison one -


This shows both sides -


Quality has been lost when posting these drawings. If you need better quality versions send me a PM.

I wish I had those U 45 photos when doing these drawings - they would have helped A LOT!

Cheers,

Dougie

[vonbulowfla]

 mr bill ...............thank you sir for the information. i think i have the number of flood holes problem licked. i will post the solution a.s.a.p . in any event your information has been most helpful .also thanks to dougie for his type 7 b info.

[vonbulowfla]

oh no mr billllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll. how are you bill ? well i hope anyway i finally got my computer going right so i posted some photos of my deck . i will post some of the solution i came up with for the forward main floods in a few days .how is the the  7 b coming along?

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone,

Not much progress on U-45 in the last several weeks.  I have been fully occupied with home repair and improvement on a property that I lease out.  The structure is almost 30 years old and the last tenant seems to have done everything in his power to abuse the property.  As a result of neglect and tenant abuse, I have had to strip it to a shell to repair water damage and dry rot.  Electrical, plumbing, cabinets, doors, walls, windows, baseboards, paint, flooring, and so on all need repair and/or replacement.  I am doing almost all of the work myself, so it is taking me a long, long time.  At least a few more weeks needed to complete the job.   I am really nackered and need to take a day or so rest, so maybe I can spend some time on U-45.  Looking forward with great interest to the flooding hole solution from vonbulow............

Regards,

Mr. Bill
(Rapidly becoming an expert in home restoration)

[vonbulowfla]

mr bill' good luck with the house. and i have been working many hours myself. i will post my project this weekend and see what you think . in any event take care and happy building .

[Rokket]

Good luck Bill, it's a crap job. But as you say, think of all the new sills! (which you probably hope you'll never need again). My mate bought a house and found that the previous owner was NOT a handyman...I Love Lucy style of wallpapering (over light switch hole), 2 tiny screws holding shelves which didn't...smashed a glass set as they collapsed, etc., etc.

[Trierarch]

Hi there,

I just discovered tonight your fantastic job, as I have not much time left on my hands for modeling right now, but hey this is truly impressive and highly interesting.

As for your apartment repair, good luck, I did it for a few years, but as you said some tenants just do not care of a clean and nice apartment. That's why I decided last year to sell the few apartments I had. Don't get me wrong some tenants were great, but a few are just disgusting.

Keep up your very interesting project, I am certain that you will make many fans.

Cordially,
 

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings Everyone,

Taking a few days off from my home renovation work and managed to find some time for U-45.  Leaving the conning tower aside for a bit, I focused on the modifications needed to the forward flooding vents.  With one exception, the Revell kit can be modified without too much difficulty to accurately depict an early VIIB, including U-45.  My main resource is the material researched and prepared by Dougie which is very detailed and well documented.  Basically, U-45 had a top row of 28 flood vents on the port side and a bottom row of 19 vents.  The starboard side had a top row of 28 vents and a bottom row of 15 vents.  The central drainage area was the same on both sides, starting just behind top row vent no 28.  The Revell kit has 22 vents on the top row and 17 on the bottom, both port and starboard.  This seems like an easy modifications at first, but there is a problem on the port side where the saddle tank occupies the same space as the needed extra bottom row vents (apologies for poor spelling in the photo notations):


   

No problem with filling the central drainage area and making the six new vents for the top row, but the two vents (nos. 18 & 19) on the bottom row are a real problem.  Other than major styrene surgery to the saddle tank, I can't see a way to add these two vents.  At this point, I am inclined to accept a compromise to accuracy and leave these two vents off rather than attempt a major modification to the saddle tanks.

The starboard side has only 15 vents on the bottom side, so no problem with the saddle tank:



It is interesting to note that the central drainage area is the same on both sides for U-45.  I believe this drainage area on the VIIC boats was not the same on both sides.  It seems that all is required to make this modification is to fill the slot on the kit part and then make the six new flood vents on both sides.  Keeping these new vents in a straight line with the existing vents may bring them very close to saddle tank, I can't be sure until I measure more carefully.

Thanks to everyone for helping me with this project.  Your comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Siara]

Im really interested how youll deal with it Bill.
I remember time when i was doing this to my U-552, and it cost me some sleeping time i can tell you.
Youve got bigger task on your hands, as the number of holes added is greater on your model.
Shut your eyes, grab the drill, and away you go.
Good luck.

[vonbulowfla]

bill ' what i dont understand is why on the real boats the slots dont interfere with the saddle tanks . all i can think of is all of the forward floods on the revell kit are set to far back . i am almost done with my solution to this problem . i will post a shot by the middle of the week . dont rush it look it over and measure it out . i will do the same let me know what you come up with .

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks for the input, I am looking forward to your solution.  In the meantime, I think the problem may be with trying to use the Revell VIIC hull parts for a VIIB boat.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that in reality the VIIB was slightly smaller (perhaps 60cm in length? one hull frame?) than the VIIC with differently shaped/smaller saddle tanks.  I can't recall the source for this vague memory, but I believe it was one the standard references.  I think the forward part of the VIIB saddle tank were shorter and sloped downward more than the VIIC which left more of the upper hull open for a longer row of flood vents.  I could be entirely wrong, but this is what I recall.

Having said that, it is interesting to note that the brass deck from the Amati VIIB kit fits very well into Revell VIIC hull, almost exact in length.  I would have expected the Amati deck to be too small for the Revell hull. 

It seems, at least on the surface, that the flood vent locations on the Revell VIIC are a good match for a VIIB boat, until they run into the forward part of the saddle tank on the port side.  I will look through my reference books and try to find some profile drawings for both VIIB and VIIC hulls to compare the shape of the saddle tanks, especially the forward part.

Many thanks!

[vonbulowfla]

bill' or they are about a 1/16 of an inch to low.

[vonbulowfla]

bill' i knew about the difference in the saddle tanks . but i had know idea about the difference in length . i learn something new every day . thanks for that tidbit of info . very handy indeed. will post that shot a.s.a.p .

[NZSnowman]

Thanks for the input, I am looking forward to your solution.  In the meantime, I think the problem may be with trying to use the Revell VIIC hull parts for a VIIB boat.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that in reality the VIIB was slightly smaller (perhaps 60cm in length? one hull frame?) than the VIIC with differently shaped/smaller saddle tanks.  I can't recall the source for this vague memory, but I believe it was one the standard references.  I think the forward part of the VIIB saddle tank were shorter and sloped downward more than the VIIC which left more of the upper hull open for a longer row of flood vents.  I could be entirely wrong, but this is what I recall.

Yes the VIIB is smaller than the VIIC

Version   Total length (mm)

VIIB      65,510
VIIC      67,100
VIIC/41   67,230
VIIC/42A   68,730 (Final VIIC/42 version)         
VIIC/42B   73,400
VIIC/42C   Either 68,730 or 73,400
VIIC/43   68,730 (Total length was not decided)

Also not sure if this is useful, but the frames on the VIIC & VIIC/41 are 500 mm however between frame number 105 & 106 the distance is 625mm.  Frame 105 & 106 is just before the 12 around hole on the bow.

The other thing I have yet seen any original dimension for the vent but going with the most detail plan I have, I believe they are 390mm x 120mm. Has anyone see a true dimension for these vents.

[vonbulowfla]

.thanks' snowman. yes good question does anybody have these dimentions. if so it would be a great help !

[Mr. Bill]

Hello vonbulow,

A quick look at flood vents on the Revell hull compared to photos of U-45 seems to show that the bottom row of flood vents may be slightly too low on the kit for a VIIB as you mentioned.  Need to look at this more closely to be sure.  If there is a difference, I think it is very small and probably not noticeable.  Not much can be done if there is a difference, other than fill the entire row of vents and cut new ones - a very major task. 

Using a straight edge, it is clear that the extra 6 top row flood vents needed for U-45 will be right on the top edge of the saddle tank.  I might be able to give them a very minor offset, but nothing like the distance seen in the photos.  Again, I think this is the result of trying to use a Type VIIC hull/saddle tank for a VIIB - they are very close, but not the same.   

Many thanks,

Bill

[vonbulowfla]

yes mr bill 'i see what you are saying .ithink me and siara had a discussion over the front cone of the revell saddle tanks in december or march . he  told me that the front nose cone on the type 7 c has almost a snubb nose shape . as a matter of fact we came to the conclusion that the shape of the revell saddle tanks are more for for a b than a c . and after looking at page 31 of robert sterns type 7 u boat book this is true . all you have to do is streamline the top of the front section of the tank for a type 7 b . check it out and i hope it helps . will post that shot thursday .good day!

[Rokket]

I found the same thing, here's what I did years ago now:

http://www.rokket.biz/models/modelsweb/rokket/u557/prog8.shtml

[vonbulowfla]

rokket' yes that is what i am talking about . revell has a set of type 7 b saddle tanks on a 7 c hull ! as i said with a little sreamlining they are dead on for a b . or one can go the route you did and reshape the cone .good work by the way .thanks for your help as always.

[wildspear]

Mr. Bill,

Do you do house calls?? I have some flood lights I cant get to work in my back yard.....geuss I'll have to "bite the Bullet" and get to work on my projects....blah!

[vonbulowfla]

mr bill ' are you still alive ladd .? whats the deal with the boat mate . i have been working like a dog . as a matter of fact i am on the road for work right now just thought i would check in with the ladds to see what was up . anyway let us know you are sucking air mate and talk to you soon . oh yes i have that shot of my type 7 b main flood solution ready and i will send it as soon as i get back to the ship yard . till then good day mates !

[Mr. Bill]

Still here.  Almost have the property renovation work completed, it has been an ordeal.  Just when I thought I had some spare time to spend on U-45, the alternator on my car failed.  Seems that the 8 year old battery finally went bad and the external voltage regulator was failing to charge at low RPM's which eventually burned a diode which in turn fried the ignition warning relay light.  This is all original Lucas stuff on a 1971 Series 2 E-Type, so you can imagine the trouble finding competent service and suitable spares.  Anyway, I should have everything ready for a test tomorrow.  If that goes OK, I hope to spend some time on U-45.

Regards,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone,

I have finally completed my property renovation project and can now focus some time on my U-45 project.  Nothing of substance to share with you today except that I recently purchased the Special Navy Type IIA kit and compared the bronze eagle with the one I scratch built for U-45.  The SN part is smaller than my effort, it looks a bit too small when placed on the Type VII conning tower.  My scratch built eagle seems a bit too large.  Not sure how to proceed at this point, but will look into it more closely and compare to photos. I might be able to reduce my scratch built eagle a bit more.

I also believe that the SN eagle is not accurate.  The head and peak face forward.  I think they should face to the side based on photos I have reviewed.  Perhaps there are two versions used by the DKM?

Mr. Bill

[Anakin]

I could also have a use on one bronze eagle on my viib. I do have a unbuilt II A and the eagle from that kit... Would it be difficult to make a mould and make resin eagle of it? Too bad no one isn

[Rokket]

It's easy to make a mould and cast! We'll be posting an article on easy resin casting...but it's going up at Model Shipwrights first, not sure when.

YOU can cast your eagle for home use, but to recast and sell would be bad..not sure we have any sculptors on staff...

[kagero43]

Simply stunning work Mr. Bill. Can't wait to see it all painted up! Will be interested in the colors you choose - Harvey

[Mr. Bill]

Hello!

Progress photos of preliminary hull work.  First photo shows some of the modifications needed to convert the flood vent arrangements on the Revell VIIC kit to a type VIIB configuration.  Note that there should be two additional flood vents on the bottom row.  I decided to compromise accuracy on this rather than attempt major surgery to modify the size and shape of the saddle tank.  All of the round vents on the breakwater just below the deck gun location have been filled in.  U-45 did not have a breakwater as built.  A filler piece of white styrene was added to the forward section of the long flood vent that lays on top of the saddle tank.  I did not open the remaining part of this long thin vent at this time so I can more easily work with the hull part.  It will become far more flexible and prone to damage when this long vent is opened fully.  The six additional vents on the top row lay very close to the saddle tank and depending on the viewing angle will appear to bend with the contour of the hull.  This can be seen in the photo as the line of vents seem to dip in the middle when they are actually in a straight line.  I will try to post a photo later that shows the line of vents from a different angle to better illustrate this point.






Next photo shows modification done to central flood vents.  This was one of the easier modifications as the Revell kit just needed two additional vents to depict the VIIB.  The shape of the vents should be more rounded and paired.  I might try to improve this area further.





Next image shows the lower bow flood vents opened up.  No changes to the kit part other than to open the vents.  I am not really sure how this area looked on U-45 and will probably leave it as it appears now.



Last image for today shows the opened vents on the stern.  the arrangement of vents on the Revell kit in this area are not exactly accurate.  Again, I decided to compromise and just open up the kit vents.



In general. I found opening the kit flood vents more difficult than it first appears.  I used a dremel to remove some material from the inside and then scraped/sanded the remaining styrene until just a very thin, almost transparent, layer remained which could be punched out leaving just some careful cleanup on the edges of the hole.  Cutting the additional vents was not too difficult, but it is essential to control location, size, and shape so they match with the kit vents.  I think my additional vents may just a tiny bit too large!

Thanks for looking, please don't hesitate to post your comments. questions, or advice. 

Mr. Bill

[Anakin]

Hi Bill!

Since i have similar project waiting i

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Anakin,

Your are correct, the VIIB hull is shorter than the VIIC.  See the post by Snowman on 17 May for details on the hull dimensions.  I decided not to cut the hull in my U-45 project because I will be using the Amati photo etch deck which is almost an exact match lengthwise for the Revell VIIC hull parts.  Odd that the Amati VIIB deck fits so nicely with the Revell VIIC hull!  The big problem with the Revell hull is the saddle tanks - they get in the way of the extra flood vent holes needed for a VIIB.

The Amati brass parts are very thick and more difficult to work with than most photo etch.  You can try to straighten the deck by placing it on a flat hard surface and rolling a heavy (really heavy) cylindrical object over it repeatedly until the bends are flattened out.  You will probably have to change direction of your roll a few times. The part will begin to take on a long curve - don't worry, just get the bends flattened out completely and then you take the curve out by turning the part over and gently rolling until flat. 

Depending on which VIIB you plan to build, you may have to modify the Amati brass deck with regard to the location of the galley hatch, marker buoy, and ammunition container.   May also need to modify the brass deck depending on the type of conning tower.  The thick brass is difficult to cut and work with, so be careful and be sure you have checked your desired modification before cutting!

Best thing to do is select a particular VIIB at a specific time and get as many related photos and/or other reference materials.  Just picking a boat is not enough as many experienced frequent and significant changes, such as U-47.  Dougie has researched some really excellent material on this matter which I think is posted in the Library.  You can also seek advice on this forum as there are several very knowledgeable people here that are very helpful.

Good luck!

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Again,

I dry fitted the bronze eagle from the Special Navy Type IIA onto my U-45 conning tower and am pleased with the result.  The SN eagle looks just right compared to photos of U-45.  My scratch built eagle is far too large, maybe OK for 1/48th scale.







The only fault I have with the SN eagle is that the head/peak are pointed straight ahead and should be pointed toward the left wing. 

Thanks for looking!

Mr. Bill

[Anakin]

I just compared amati

[Rokket]

The B was shorter, they added a tiny bit of length, and I think they beefed up the saddle tanks, but that's a dim memory.

[Mr. Bill]

Greeting Everyone!

While working on my build of U-45 I noticed something that is different from other VIIB's.  Based on photographs, it appears that U-45 did not have the three small vent holes located along the rear top edge of the saddle tank.  These are visible on other VIIB's such as U-47 and U-99, but are absent on u-45.  These three vents follow the curve of the saddle tank and run right along the edge.  Viewing photos of VIIB's, the first of these holes is always located directly beneath the seventh flood vent.  An excellent example of this is a photo of U-99 appearing on page 24 of Warship Pictorial #27 by Steve Wiper.  These three holes beneath flood vent 7 are also visible in this photo of U-47:





The next photo shows U-45 with no holes beneath flood vent number 7.  The edge of the saddle tank is clearly visible, but there are no holes in this location. 



The last photo is a scan from page 16 of the book from Robert Stern.  The three holes are absent from this early VIIB boat.  The book does not mention which boat appears in this photo, but I believe it may be U-45.  It has the early type of conning tower and the three holes are absent.  The photo shows this boat is nearly ready for launch and has even been painted.  It does not seem likely that this boat is still under construction awaiting for these three holes to be added, especially as everything else seems to be have been completed and the boat painted in preparation for launching.



Being the first VIIB constructed, it does not seem unusual that U-45 had some unique features that subsequent VIIB's did not.  An example of this is the absence of one ammo pass through hatch on the conning tower.  All other VIIB's seem to have had two hatches.  I believe the absence of these three holes is another example of U-45 differing from other VIIB's. 

What are your thoughts on this?  It seems clear to me that U-45 did not have these three holes, but perhaps I am missing something or interpreting the photos incorrectly.  Your comments, opinions, and questions are most welcome!

Regards,

Mr. Bill

[dougie47]

Hi Mr. Bill,

I think you are right about U 45 not having the three holes...well noticed! The VIIB photo on page 16 of Stern's book has always puzzled me. Along with the three holes missing, there doesn't seem to be the big group of holes inboard of the prop shaft.

Also, do you see the housing where the prop meets the hull (parts 22/23 in the Revell kit)? VIIBs were supposed to have holes above this housing. I can't see these holes in this photo (which may well be U 45).

In the past I wondered if the workers had yet to cut the holes in this VIIB. However, as you have said, the boat is already painted. So maybe U 45 had a LOT fewer holes than the other VIIBs?

Cheers,

Dougie

[Mr. Bill]

Hello !

New photos of the conning tower to share, but first I want to thank Dougie for pointing out the lack of flooding holes above the prop shaft housing in the Stern book photo.  I was so focused on the three holes above the saddle tank, I completely missed this!  Although the boat in this photo is not identified in the caption, clearly it is one of the very early VIIB's due to the conning tower style.  As mentioned, the absence of the three holes above the end of the saddle tank seem to match photos of U-45 so I am inclined to think this mysterious photo is U-45, but it would be nice to know for certain.  If accepted as U-45, then I need to fill in those prop shaft flooding holes that I just opened up recently!  I think U-45 maybe is also unique with regards to the bow flooding vents, but I need to check into it further - the photos are conflicting! More on this later.

The following photos show the completion of the conning tower which is finally ready for a light spray of primer.  Some items have been left off at this point and will be painted separately prior to final assembly.  It may look a bit scruffy in these photos, but I think the primer will help tremendously to bring out the details.

After many attempts with brass and styrene (which all failed), I used the railing from the Amati kit which turned out better than expected.  This railing is noticeable "square" in shape, so I very carefully sanded the edges to give it a more rounded look.  The most difficult parts for me were the very tiny brass pieces I used for the safety belt attachment rings along the upper inside edge of the tower.  The swastika on the top the mast was also a bit difficult due the very tiny size.

My goal was to try to capture all of the conning tower details I could identify from the photos of U-45.  The one item that is a bit confusing is the ship's bell.  I can't see it in any of the commissioning day photos, but it is clearly there on other photos of U-45.  This seems odd, I would have expected to see it on commissioning day.  At this point, I believe I will leave it off since I want to show U-45 on her commissioning day.

As always, I greatly appreciate your comments, advice, and questions.  Thank you.

[JAORSA]

Mr. Bill, I am building the U 47 of Amati and I am closely following your U 45. All your work is incredibly perfect!!! Thanks very much for those photos...

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Jaorsa,

Many thanks for your kind words!  Good luck with the Amati kit - it is a challenge!  If you are doing U-47, keep in mind that U-45 had some small differences (flooding vents, ammo hatches, conning tower railing, ...).

Mr. Bill

[Siara]

One word- STUNNING!

[dougie47]

Hi Mr. Bill,

Outstanding work...I cannot think of any early VIIB model that has come anywhere close to this. You've even got the port side of the tower railings correct for U 45! I only noticed recently that they were slightly different to the other early VIIBs.

The pattern of holes on the side of the tower are also correct for U 45 (again there were minor differences to other early VIIBs).

Cheers,

Dougie



 

[dougie47]

Hi Mr. Bill,

A pre-war photo of U 45 on Ebay at the moment -

http://cgi.ebay.de/U45-U47-U-Boot-Fotos-U-Flottille-Wegener-1939-Prien_W0QQitemZ290351227239QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item439a482167&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Cheers,

Dougie

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks Dougie for your comments and the eBay link - I think I would like to have that photo.  I know it is hard to see in the auction photo due to the poor quality, but look at the last photo showing the bows of U-45 and U-47.  The flooding vent on the bow near the stem seems to be absent from U-45.  I can just make it out on U-47.   Having the eBay photo would be probably confirm this.....

Regards,

Mr. Bill

[Rokket]

Rals and the details are gorgeous.

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks everyone for your comments!  Primed the conning tower and fittings earlier today and have some photos to share.  I used Floquil railroad enamel primer and my ancient Paasche airbrush.  The primer revealed a few seams that need a bit of attention on the front of the conning tower and a rough spot on the periscope housing, but in general the results look good to me. 

Washes and weathering are not my strong points and I would greatly appreciate any advice, recommendations, or suggestions you may have.  I want to depict U-45 on commissioning day so she is basically spotless.  As such, I probably don't want any weathering and just a very light wash?  She will have the 1938 pre-war scheme which I think is a dark gray bottom and light gray upper?  Not sure about deck colour, I think it is dark gray also.  Specific brands and colours or codes will help me to choose the right colours.  I prefer enamels and believe that almost all brands are compatible with the Floquil primer.  I plan to airbrush Future clear following the final colour coat for decal application and a very light wash.  Final step is to seal everything in clear flat.  How does this sound?

Many thanks again to everyone, enjoy the photos.

Mr. Bill

[Rokket]

Sounds like the right paint steps to me. Interesting, I have an old Paasche single action as well, love it but will get a 2nd an of some kind one day.

I'm also an enamel fan (they bite!). Tho your steps are standard and good, myself I dropped the Future and only put it on under the decals, and dull-coated just there - firgued on keeping as thin and few coats as possible, but that was my whacky idea. Otherwise ignore it and you'll be getting stamps of approval from guys who can really paint. I'd day the light wash to get some depth in the nooks and crannies is KEY to make this look like a miniature in pristine condition as opposed to "totally spotless in an impossible and fake way". ie even clean and new needs depth and a tiny bit of dirt.

Be sure to read Dougie's Uboat Colours (library of AMP site).

Lookin good, get out a miniature bottle of champagne for the launch!

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks Rokket for pointing me to Dougie's work on U-boat colours, seems that all of the colour and manufacturer information is there.  I had considered using the Future just under the decals, but was concerned it might result in a "patchy" look overall - never actually tried this so I don't know for certain.

Mr. Bill

[dougie47]

Hi Mr. Bill,

The upper colour of U 45 during commissioning was Dunkelgrau 51 (which was actually a medium grey). It was definitely NOT the light grey Hellgrau 50. We can say this with certainty because period photos show U 45 beside tenders; the tenders were painted with D51 hull and H50 superstructures. The U 45 upper colour is identical to the tender hull - so the U 45 upper colour was D51. For the colour of Dunkelgrau 51 please see my article.

The lower hull was most likely be the usual Schiffsbodenfarbe III Grau.

The paint on the boat would have been in pristine condition so I wouldn't weather it.

The deck would probably have been recently stained with the black wood preservative, so not much weathering there either. There may have been a little hint of the brown shining through?

Remember that U 45 would have had a white vertical board placed behind the tower railings. This board prevented the tips of the sailors' boots smudging the pristine paintwork. You will have to weather the white board (which was discoloured due to the sailors' boots).

Note also that the upper half of the magnetic compass fairing was black on U 45 (but not on some other early VIIBs).

Lastly the bottom of the tower (where the tower met the deck) was black. This was common practice in the Kriegsmarine. The bottom of the 20mm was also black.

Do you know about the canvas bag over the KDB?

Any questions just ask.

Cheers,

Dougie

[bracco_n]

magnificent work mr bill!

[vonbulowfla]

mr billllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll ' hello ladd i see in my absence you have been moving right along . smashing good work bill . post some full hull shots when you can . conning tower looks great . talk to you soon .

[Mr. Bill]

I was surprised at how much time has elapsed since my last progress report!  I have done a few things lately, but not enough to justify photos.  Time to put other things aside and get back to work on U-45!

Many thanks everyone!

Mr. Bill

[Greif]

Hi Bill, you U45 is a stunning piece of work.  You have a rare talent at scratchbuilding.  Respect!

Ernest

[bracco_n]

How's that magnificent build? have you made any further progress?

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone!

I was finally able to push away all the distractions (work, family, other projects) and get to back to U-45.
Working on the hull and making good progress the last two days.  Mainly filling and drilling flood holes to match the arrangement of U-45.  Drilling the new holes is far easier/faster than filling and finishing existing holes that are not needed.  In particular, trying to smooth the filled surface without destroying rivet details is a very time consuming process. 

I am considering a few options for the pressure hull sections which can be seen through the flooding vents and deck.  I am reluctant to invest a great deal of time and effort in this area as it will be difficult to see on the finished model.  Also need to figure a way to overcome fit problem between the Amati brass deck and the Revell hull in the area of the 8.8 deck gun.  The fit is good everywhere else except for this one area.

I will try to get some progress photos posted soon.

Mr. Bill

[Rokket]

Glad you're back! Those damned pesky non-modeling obligations!

How do you fill the holes? I was fond of the backing piece of plastic, then making a plug to fit flush and tight (as easily could), with some creamy putty as a topper.

PE deck - don't know of the fit problems myself, but in general it is hard to get a big piece of metal to stick!

[Mr. Bill]

The best technique that I have found for filling the holes is to use a styrene plug shaped to fit the hole.  My favorite filler method is to apply a small amount of CA and then sprinkle with baking soda which instantly sets it in place with no shrinkage.  It can than be immediately sanded and is generally the same hardness as the styrene.  I have found this works well for even large areas and the CA can be wet sanded very smooth.

I am thinking of using some styrene strips under the PE deck that can securely fastened to the insides of the hull.  This approach will require very carefully measurements and some tricky fitting, but should provide for a more secure bond between the styrene and brass.  As you mentioned, the concern is that the deck will separate from the hull edge over time or with handling!  I think the key is get the contour of the hull edge to exactly fit the deck edge so that it basically will be a snug drop in rather than a press fit depended on the CA bond.

As others have mentioned, the styrene hull above the long horizontal drainage slot on top of the saddle tanks becomes very weak once the slot is cut out.  Earlier today, I opened these slots up from the inside and was surprised how flimsy the part becomes.  This may actual help in fitting the brass deck as the tension on the styrene is far less.

Trying to come up with a solution for the pressure hull and will have a look at what others have done for inspiration.

Mr. Bill 

 

[Rokket]

Thanks very much for the baking soda info. I'm a big fan of CA as a filer/putty, but had no clue about the baking soda.
For my wooden deck, I was worried about the same tings and used to beams of thick plastic to keep the hull tohgether, with the deck droping in as decoration and not structural.

P-hull - there's a lot of different stuff out there folks have done. Not much can be seen, but somehing is definitely needed.

[Mr. Bill]

Sometimes, when I am using both hands to carefully align parts together with a drop of CA, I will call out for Wifey to come and sprinkle baking soda on the CA to set it.  She calls this the "Pixey Dust" technique.

Regards,

Bill

[Rokket]

Interesting!

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone,

Here are some photos of recent work on hull.  Working from article written by Dougie and photos, I opened flooding vents on the kit parts as needed to depict U-45 by grinding/scraping away from inside of hull.  Drilled and shaped new vents as needed to match U-45.  Vents on kit that were not needed for U-45 were filled with styrene and/or CA and then sanded smooth.  I still need to add the internal ribs/frames to the long horizontal flood slot on top of the saddle tanks.  I am uncertain about some details of flooding vents on U-45 and used next best reference possible in deciding what to do.  I did not attempt to correct the kit part torpedo doors.

I do appreciate your comments and suggestions, so please let me know if you have any questions or see something in the photos that doesn't look right!

First image shows the forward lower flood vents:


Next is the forward upper flood vents:


Central area upper flooding vents:


Aft upper flood vents:


Torpedo door flood vents:


Finally, the aft lower vents:


Regards,

Bill

[Rokket]

she'll be ready for diving soon!

[Mr. Bill]

More progress photos.  Ribs installed on inside of flooding slot.  Still need to do the other side:

[Greif]

She's looking good Bill!  Installing those ribs can be a bit tedious can't they?

Ernest

[Rokket]

it's "fun" - right? is that the word for that torture? Fun!

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

Fantastic to see the U 45 taking shape. All your modifications to the vents make it more like the real boat. The vents just behind the main dive planes are...unfortunately...moulded as rectangular on the Revell kit rather than oval as on the real boats. Even just rounding the corners off would help. I've only seen this area on one VIIB - U 99. This is on page 25 of Steve Wiper's pictorial on the Type VII. Do you have this image?

Cheers,

Dougie

[Rokket]

a rat-tail file with a few passes should do the trick

[Mr. Bill]

Hello everyone!  Installing the ribs looks simple at first, but keeping them straight and evenly spaced is more difficult that it seems.  I did not glue the top part of the ribs to the inside of the hull so as to provide a bit more flexibility when I fit the deck. I hope this will help and not end up being a problem.

Thanks Dougie for the tip on those vents.  I do have that reference book and you are of course correct.  The kit can be improved further by rounding the ends of those vents.  I can try to use my rat tail file as rokket suggested, but I think it is too large.  I really need some new jeweler size files and tools - mine are ancient and badly worn.

What about that triangular shaped section of vents on top of the main group?  They are not present on the kit and I was reluctant to add them.  The U-99 photo does show them, but did U-45 have them?  In looking more closely at the photo, I was surprised to see how small the one vent is at the stem compared to the kit.  The difference is really noticeable!  I think I will have to fill that vent in and drill a new, smaller, vent to better match the real thing.

Thanks again everyone, your help is much appreciated.

Bill

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

Regarding the triangular shaped section on top the main group...many VIICs had this group but some did not. I couldn't say whether U 45 had them or not - just no way of telling without more reference material. The only VIIB I know about regarding this area is U 99. U 99 clearly had them. So I would be inclined to add them to your model.

There is no way of knowing about U 45 for certain unless we can find period photos.

The one vent at the stem is a VIIB only feature.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Mr. Bill]

OK,  ordered some new tools - various jeweler files, tweezers, and some other stuff.  My old set of tools are crap and too worn to work with.  Once I get these new goodies, I will work on the flooding vents some more.  The work should proceed at a faster pace with the new tools (I hope).  In the meantime, I am getting ready to do the 20mm gun and studying photos of the early deck mounted units with the cartridge tray on the side of the mount pedestal.

Cheers,

Bill

[Rokket]

ahhh, new tools! crisp and useful!

[Pat]

Mr Bill, the jeweler's tools sound like a good idea.  I'll have to look into those too for tiny files and tweezers.

As for the sharp edged tools, being a biology major in univ., I ended up using surgical/disection tools for modeling.  Scalpel blades are even sharper than X-acto blades and much stronger because a rib and channel along the back edge.  They fit the hand very nicely too.

And they have some interesting shapes for forceps that help a lot when tying knots in ratlines (sorry, I keep going back to my tall ship days)

[Mr. Bill]

Hi Pat,

I imagine that surgical blades are far superior than anything available from the hobby industry.  Do you know of any sources for those scalpel blades that can be used on an X-acto handle?

I am looking forward to some new tools, but there are some temporary alternatives which are simple and effective in many situations (but not all).  For filing really small and/or hard to access places I will cut narrow long strips from an fingernail emery board (you may have to raid the stash of Wifey or Girlfriend).  These strips won't last long, but they are cheap and easy to make.

Another way to file and polish holes or small rounded places is to wrap a small piece of sandpaper around a round wooden toothpick.  Again, this won't last long, but it is quick and easy to do and will work in many situations.  Sometimes, it is possible to finish a small rough hole by just using a round wooden toothpick to "polish" the inside of the hole smooth with a twisting motion.   Go gently with this on really small holes (like portholes that have drilled out on a 1/350 hull) or the tip of the toothpick will break off inside the hole.  You can dig it our easily, but the hole will have to be finished again and may end up slightly bigger than the others.

Cheers,

Bill

[Pat]

Medical scalpel blades don't fit into X-Acto knives.  The blades themselves are the exact same shapes, but because of the rib, you can't tighten them in the same way and they'll wobble.  Thehave a hole in them that fits over a tenon on the end of the scalpel handle.

You can get both the handle and the blades at medical supply companies.  I'd think the campus book store (or wherever they sell them) at your nearest university will also sell them.  Scientific equipment supply companies should also carry them, or be able to tell you where to get them.

The blades come in boxes of up to 100, so they'll last a long time.

Another tool I use are dental tools, particularly the picks and drills.  The picks are good because of their curvature, you can get into really hard to reach places.  The drill bits are like Dremel but there are several other shapes that Dremel doesn't have.  You don't have to buy them.  Just ask your dentist to save them for you when they're worn out instead of throwing them out.  A drill bit that seems dull to a dentist using them on teeth is still amazingly sharp when used on plastic.  And a pick with one end broken is still useful to yoful to a modeler, if not to a dentist.

[Greif]

Ahhh - new tools.  One can never have enough!

Ernest

OK,  ordered some new tools - various jeweler files, tweezers, and some other stuff.  My old set of tools are crap and too worn to work with.  Once I get these new goodies, I will work on the flooding vents some more.  The work should proceed at a faster pace with the new tools (I hope).  In the meantime, I am getting ready to do the 20mm gun and studying photos of the early deck mounted units with the cartridge tray on the side of the mount pedestal.

Cheers,

Bill

[wildspear]

I need some new tools, I was looking for the Dremel torch but I cant seem to find any vendors that sell it here in the states.

[Rokket]

I did a search and can't find it either - then went to Dremel, and if you choose "USA" it doesn't appear, choose Australia (and from other sources, presumably UK) you get the torch and a cool glue gun. In fact, tho Dremel is a US company I think, the US version is not as nice as the AUS version (similar, but seems easier to nav and more products!)

My Dad got me my first Dremel a long time back, about 33 years - still going strong, but I did buy a new one anyway.

I think any compact torch would be good, they sell them in hardware stores, and I'd think MicroMark and Brookstone would have them...

[Pat]

I wonder if that's because of different approvals needed to meet to UL regulations rokket?  Sort of howRevell Germany can't supply us with a historical WWII ensign for U-boats, E-boats, etc but no problem for Revell USA to print the proper flags.

I don't think the X-Acto hot knife I use is available any more (I haven't seen one for years) but it's actually just a soldering iron with an X-acto knife tip screwed in the end.

[Rokket]

good points

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone!

Does anyone have a photo or diagram of the cartridge tray that appears on the pedestal of the 20mm deck mounted gun on early Type VIIB's?   I am working with some fuzzy, odd angle photos and my first attempt was a failure.  There seems to be a slight curve to the tray that conforms at least somewhat with the pedestal, but I am not sure.  U-45 photos I have don't show the tray clearly.

Thank You,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings!

Thanks to everyone for your assistance and advice!  Here are some new images to share of progress with U-45.  The hull halfs are glued together, but the brass Amati deck is dry fitted along with the conning tower.  The deck fit is very good except for a few areas, but sits too low so I will need to insert some styrene strip to raise the deck to the correct level.

[Mr. Bill]

Some more photos showing the flooding vents and interior structures.

[Mr. Bill]

Last group of images today showing areas of the Amati deck that need some work to fit with Revell hull.  The forward part of the Amati deck is very narrow and has a odd pattern on it, so I removed it and will use the Revell part for this section.  The fit around the area of the 88 deck gun has a gap which I initially thought I could eliminate by clamping the hull sides with CA.  I have decided that the stress is too great for this approach with a high risk the joint will separate.  As an alternative, I have decided to fill the gap with styrene and drill new holes as necessary.  The very tip of the aft deck area will also need to be filled a bit where the pointed end of the Amati deck meets the flat edge of the Revell hull.

Overall, I am pleasantly surprised how nicely the Amati VIIB deck fits into the Revell VIIC hull.  Lengthwise,  the two are almost an exact match.  The only gaps that need attention are around the 8.8 deck gun and the steel deck at the bow. 

[Siara]

Thats one good looking deck Bill.
Following it closely.

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks Siara!  Here's a couple of additional images.  The first shows how far the deck "sits" down in the hull creating a very noticeable lip.  I think this can be easily resolved with some strip styrene inserted on top of the ledge of the kit part to bring the deck even with the edge of the hull.





These next two images show the modifications I made to the forward part of the deck.  This part of the Amati deck is very narrow and left a large gap where it should meet with the hull edge.  The force needed to bring the hull and deck together places far too much stress on the styrene hull and any glued joint would surely separate.  I cut this part off of the Amati deck and replaced with the similar section from the Revell deck.  Some trimming of the wide end of the Revell section was needed to match the width of the brass deck where the two meet.  The second photo shows the section cut from the Amati deck laid on top of the Revell part and the resulting gap.  Note the cross hatch pattern of the Amati deck - I don't believe this is accurate?  I am not entirely happy with the details on the Revell part - the series of holes in the steel plates of this section of deck are represented by raised bumps on the Revell part!  I will probably scratch build this section from styrene and drill the holes along with adding the other details.








I am still working on how to do the pressure hull details.  So far I can't decide on how much work I want to do in this area - something has to be added, but the visibility seems very limited.  How much of the pressure hull details can be seen once the deck is in place?

Your comments, advice, and questions are always welcome.

Cheers,

Bill

[Siara]

 How much of the pressure hull details can be seen once the deck is in place?

Almost none. I wouldnt bother with it if i was making the model again.
I do like the new images Bill- stick with them.

Hey- did anyone notice- we have new ranks now.

[Rokket]

Observant Siara! Any suggestions welcome.

Mr Bil - looking sweet!

I did some conning tower p-hull work, but as Siara says, you really need a torch and squinting eyes to see anything.

[Pat]

How much of the pressure hull details can be seen once the deck is in place?

While I don't have final proof of it yet, I don't quite agree with Siara about not being able to see the p-hull detail.

Of course, it does require a LOT more work to make it visible.

On my build, I'm hinging all the major deck hatches, such as the ones over the spare torpedos and and loading hatches and the ones over the inflatable dinghy storage tubs.  This should not only let in a lot of extra light when in the open position, but also create large open spaces with which to see down onto the p-hull from certain angles.

I say that I don't have proof of it yet because I'm only at the stage where I've put in most of the framing under the wooden deck, but I've made similar hatches on lots of models of sailing ships and they let in enough light to be able see quite a bit of detail between decks while looking either down through the hatches and companionways or in through gunports along the side.

However, it IS a great deal of extra work.  The hardest part isn't actually making the deck or the hatches, it's making the tin ylittle hinges for each hatch but it is possible and there are several techniques for different sorts of hinges.

[Rokket]

It's pretty black. The slots are tiny, the whole thing is painted almost black. With a searing bright light you might see some vague stuff, but...

I put frame ribs behind the limber holes, and a #D p-hull "nose" in the bow, and a half-pull in the stern, and a curved top down the center, but you really can't notice anything but the bow.

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings!

Worked on the forward watertight ammunition container yesterday and today and have a few photos to share.  The early VIIB's as built had only one watertight ammo container located near the 8.8 deck gun.  I believe that the later B's and C's had a second ammo container installed on the deck aft of the conning tower.  The Revell kit features this type of configuration.  I am not sure if the early B's were subsequently modified to include a second ammo container when the 20mm was relocated to the enlarged platform on the conning tower, but I think so.

The hatch design for the ammo container is slightly different on the early B's compared to later versions.  It has four "flanges" on the edge of the circular edge while later versions did not.  In addition, there is a noticeable gap between the hatch edge and the deck that is not visible on the later hatches.  The early hatch features can be seen in photos of U-47 and U-53, which I used as references as I could not find any images of the hatch on U-45.  I assume that U-45 and U-47 had the same hatch design.

Cutting the Amati brass deck is very difficult.  It is very thick and I had a few tense moments using a dremel to cut the brass away.  The result looks good to me, except for one small rough spot on the edge that I will try to fix later.

I am relieved that U-45 had only one of these hatches as I would not relish the thought of having to do a second hatch modification on that thick brass!

Right, on to the photos:



This image shows the cutout of the Amati deck.  If you compare to the image of the unmodified Amati deck in the early post, you can see the differences.



Here is the scratch built ammo hatch based on photos of U-47 and U-53.  Note the four flanges.



Ammo hatch dry fitted into the modified deck.



Another image of the hatch dry fitted.  You can just see the blemish on the edge of brass deck!



Last photo for today showing the Revell hatch and the modified Amati deck + scratch built hatch.


Thanks again everyone for all of your input.  I appreciate your advice and questions, so don't hesitate to let me know your comments and questions!

Cheers,

Bill

[billp51d]

    Mr. Bill...Attractive work! If you hadn't mentioned the dremel, I would have bet you had used a milling machine (Bridgeport). It sure was handy when i worked in a machine shop.
                Looking at your work, though, it does stir an old question in my mind? Ever since I started "U-BOATS" I've wondered just what kept these ammo container hatches locked/closed ? No visible latches, handwheels or mechanisms? There now...Ive finally asked...I feel better... Anybody have an answer.....Anybody???  
                              Thanks in advance
                                               Bill in Delaware..

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Bill,

Thanks for your comments!  You ask a great question - I don't know how those watertight container lids were secured.  Looking at the photo of U-47, there might be some bolts at each of the four flanges, the photo is not that clear so I can't be sure, but I doubt these actually secured the lid as the time to unbolt the lid would be far too long under combat conditions!

This photo of U-570 shows the aft container with the lid removed.  It appears there is some type of locking ring on the inside of the container - maybe this was used to secure the lid?





Probably someone out there that has the correct answer.

Cheers,

Bill

[billp51d]

         I agree, Bill.. I doubt they would have time to loosen hardware, or even fool with a handwheel if it were there. My guess, some kind of "quick release" located closely? Anybody else?....Anybody?   
         Looking forward to more of your build, Bill...

[Greif]

Very nice work on the hatch Bill!

Ernest

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

Great work on the deck hatch. You are correct that the eraly Bs had a different hatch. The one you have made on your model is ideal for an early B.

I've checked photos of U 46 and U 47. Even after they had the 20mm moved to the tower, they were not fitted with an ammo hatch behind the tower. Instead they had what looks like a simple circular blanking plate where the 20mm used to be. There looks like 6 bolt heads around the edge of the blanking plate.

Later VIIBs such as U 73, U 83, U 87, U 100 and U 101 all had the ammo hatch.

Good luck with the Amati deck, I remember it was quite thick brass.

Cheers,

Dougie

[bracco_n]

lovely work Mr Bill, keep it up!

[Pat]

I think billp is correct, that there must have been some sort of hatch release somewhere, but perhaps not right on the hatch itself.  Boatbuilders seem to be adept at finding all sorts of ways to hide things or inset them into the structure, so I'd guess perhaps either a hole somewhere in the decking that crew could reach in to release the hatch, or perhaps it was even something in between the drainage slots on the deck.

Another thought about it though.  The canisters for the ready ammunition for the FlaK guns do seem to have been closed by turning a handle on top.  They seem to be almost the same mechanism as the ones that held the inflatable dinghies, just smaller.

I wonder why they didn't use the same thing for the 88mm ammo?

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Pat,

I think you and Bill are correct.  It seems that some sort of quick release mechanism under the deck structure was likely involved.  Perhaps a long "T" shaped rod tool that could be inserted through the deck to turn a hex nut that released the lid.  At least this would provide fast access to the ready use ammo.  It seems that something fast acting would be necessary to get to the ammo quickly..

Cheers,

Bill

[Rokket]

I have a dim memory of just incredible spring pressure. The spring could seal it "average" and at depth the water pressure would keep it reeeeally sealed. But again, this is a dim and vague memory, it could be completely false or of some other type of container on some other type of...thing.

[Jan]

Great work, Mr. Bill!

Concerning those "ammo-hatches", I`m not even sure, that they were in fact watertight containers as David Westwood writes... right now, I

[NZSnowman]

Jan, I have just finish reading "Iron Coffins" enjoy it a lot!!!! Now reading Black May : The Epic Story of the Allies' Defeat of the German U-Boats in May 1943 by M. Gannon

[Rokket]

Iron Coffins was excellent, read it when I was 20, and again at 40. Checking the patrol report from a couple sources, there is some, er, "discrepancy" between Official and Werner, especially what constituted a patrol (a false start I think), and the usual extra tonnage included in orig report and either disallowed by HQ or History.

Werner sure wanted a Schnorkel and hydraulic-loaded torps! Who can blame him. He (and Dick O'Kane) both talk about the fast weathering of their ships, too...how after just a short time, blazing suna nd salt spraw turned their boats into chipped, flaked, faded things unrecognizabile!

[billp51d]

          I just looked at Type11 "bouy marker" configuration, which later in Type V11"s became "ready to use ammo containers". In the Type11"s it appears that the hatches were activated (opened) by a blast of air. Donno, but could have been the same operating system used later on the Type V11"s.
          Never the less, ammo hatches had to be air tight to keep sea water out! So whatta you guys think?
                                        Cheers/ Regards....Bill   
       

[NZSnowman]

Werner sure wanted a Schnorkel and hydraulic-loaded torps!

In retrospect, I don't think I would wanted to used the early Schnorkel. They had a lot of trouble with them. In addition, the firsts boats used them without using the sky periscope and planes were sudden engaging them while submerge. The Brit

[Jan]

Werner sure wanted a Schnorkel and hydraulic-loaded torps!

In retrospect, I don't think I would wanted to used the early Schnorkel. They had a lot of trouble with them. In addition, the firsts boats used them without using the sky periscope and planes were sudden engaging them while submerge. The Brit

[NZSnowman]

I would had love a Type XXI but I think I would had been happy in a late war Type VIIC/41 with all the new toys

[Pat]

The wide flange around the 88mm ready ammo would seem to confirm that water pressure might have kept it closed.  Extra surface area for the water to press down on the lid.  But a near miss by a depth charge would have changed the pressure and caused such a lid to flop open sometimes.  At least enough to let water in before it closed again.

Having a blast of air open the hatch makes sense.  But if that was the case, why wouldn't they have also done the same with the ready ammo for the 20mm and 37mm Flaks?  Those seem to be held with a screw-type closure.

Whenever the hatch was used, there was so little freeboard that some water would inevitably splash in just from wave action.  That makes me wonder if perhaps the hatches weren't watertight at all since the ammo would have to proof against even this little amount of water. 

It also brings up the question of how the spare torpedos were kept watertight.  Such a long, narrow tube would be hard to pressurize, and in the pictures I've seen, there doesn't seem to be any sort of watertight closure on them. 

I do remember coming across something that said the torpedos had to be taken out and serviced about once a week while at sea, and this may have meant that they weren't in watertight containers but were simply coated in grease.  So perhaps the 88mm shells were also coated in grease?  That wouldn't be possible for the Flak ammo because it was much smaller, on belts and/or would jam much easier than the larger caibler ammunition?

[billp51d]

          Interesting observation, Pat. Thanks for your input..
               (BTW.. Off topic: I'm ready to order cherry veneer strips you recommended and hope to see your own deck build process)
                                                             Cheers/Regards .. Bill
                                                            

[Pepper-mint]

I would had love a Type XXI but I think I would had been happy in a late war Type VIIC/41 with all the new toys

Let's build one...

@ Bill : I love your hatch, very fine work.

[Rokket]

I think the air blast was for when it was a buoy marker - you blast it up and out to the surface....seems a bit wacky for ammo...

[Pat]

Yeah rokket, the air blast does seem a bit odd, but it wouldn't be the first oddity we've found with U-boats.  And it does seem to fit the available, though scanty, evidence as to how they worked.

billp, glad you've found the cherry wood strips of interest.  I've used them in dozens of ship models and even for building parts of land-based dioramas.  They're very versitile.

Not sure when I can get pix of my own build.  Besides having terrible computer problems for the past few months, the only digital camera I have is my cell phone which isn't the best resolution.  Not sure how much detail will show up with it.

I had a big set back last week too.  I have a box with all the little parts that I've been scratch building and dry fitting to my U-boat, and all the parts that I've cut off the sprues but haven't glued in place yet.  Well, the box fell over last week and spilled about 300 parts all over the floor.  It's going to take a while to even go through and figure out if I've found all of them or if I have to order/create more parts.  (There were a few choice words uttered, and the cat thought it looked like great fun!)

On a positive note though, I figured out how to make the the capstan spring-loaded so that it can be displayed in either the above or below deck position.  It's a variation on what I was planning to use to raise and lower the bollards.  While I don't think the capstan actually went up and down (I think they unbolted manually and stowed it - but if anybody has any better info I'd be interested), however, since I don't like the idea of making it removable and therefore, loseable, this is a good method and will look right even if it's not how the original worked in RL.

[Rokket]

sorry to hear about the spill....standing by

[Pat]

I'm sure every one of us has had some experience of dropping tiny parts on the floor that seem to manage to roll and bounce into the most unlikely of places.  Usually though, I don't drop so many at once.  I'd just been making all these little hinges and latches and tiny bits all at once.  (after all, there are only about 193 pcs in the kit and at least half of them ARE in place on the model so far)

My biggest problem (other than that the room is a mess with lots of hiding places for these little parts) is even remembering what all of them are to even know what's missing.  So many of them are parts that I'd made to make things operate/rotate/elevate/open/swivel etc. just like the real ones, that I'll only remember them when I see them.  Many of them were made in advance of assembly, since to get so many moving parts it all has to be put together in the right order or it doesn't work.

Oh well.  It'll keep me off the streets at night.

[Mr. Bill]

New progress on U-45:

First image shows an interior view of the bow flood vents following primer coat and without interior structure in place


Here is the interior structure for the bow after a coat of primer


And the interior structure piece for the stern after a coat of primer


Hard to see, but this is the interior structure for the torpedo tube flood vent area following application of primer coat.  Once the deck is in place, this area will be nearly impossible to see


Aft torpedo tube area with torpedo tube door fitted.  I used a rounded head brass tack for the door


The following are several images of the scratch built pressure hull.   After some testing, I was surprised how very little can be seen of the pressure hull once the deck is in place.  Even under bright sun conditions, very little detail can be seen through the flood vents and the deck.  However, something is needed or the light shines right through the flood vents.  After careful consideration and some experiments, I decided to take an approach that is very simple, but provides some basic details for the pressure hull.  Basically, I cut down a length of ABS irrigation pipe with a diameter that fit best into the hull.  The ends were too wide, so I had to reduce the outside diameter with a power sander to fit the pipe into the hull.  The draw back with using a constant diameter pipe for a pressure hull is that if the ends fit tight, the centre area has a large gap between the pipe and the insides of the hull.  Not really a problem as once the deck is in place, this gap is invisible.  Once I got the pipe to fit at the bow and stern, I used a variety of items to add the pressure hull details.  Mostly stock styrene, especially tubes and rods along with stuff from the spares box and other items.  I used diagrams from various reference books as a guide for the details along with some photos of the Yankee Model Works resin pressure hull.  I had to make some compromises so that everything could fit, but in general this was a very easy way to add lots of basic detail for the pressure hull.  I had to keep reminding myself to limit the detailing as most of this area is almost invisible once the deck is in place.  I have painted the hull with a primer coat just now and will post photos later today once it has dried a bit.
















Please let me know if you have any questions or comments!

Cheers,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

And some views of the pressure hull following a coat of primer. 
























That's all for now, please let me know if you questions or comments.

Cheers,

Bill

[bracco_n]

That'll do just fine Mr Bill, good work!

[Rokket]

Very nice detail and work, and especially the use of the brass tack! Well done.

[Greif]

U-45 is coming along very very nicely Bill.  Your interior looks way better then mine did.  Beautiful work!

Ernest

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks for the comments!  Once I fit the pressure hull permanently into place I will concentrate on the deck.

Cheers,

Bill

[Pepper-mint]

Amazing work Mr. Bill !!! 

I like it very much.

Laurent.

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings!

More progress on U-45.  First group of photos show the bull nose.  I removed and then modified the Revell steel fore deck section rather than use the Amati brass part as it was too narrow and the tread plate pattern did not look right.  One of the modifications necessary on the Revell part is to relocate the bull nose forward.  I used styrene tube and drilled out the interior so as to thin the thickness of the tube wall.  Carefully filed a grove in the upper stem of the bow as seen in photos of this area on real boats.  Finally added the net cutter attachment bracket and contoured sanded the assembly.
 








Modifications to the steel fore deck included drilling out the circular grate and installing a spare PE part to simulate the grate.  Also salvaged the brass net cutter attachment brackets from the Amati part.  Finally added a very thin styrene hatch cover to the very end of the fore deck as seen in my reference photos.  Still need to drill a hole for the flag staff located just behind the bull nose on the port side.  The Brass main deck behind the styrene fore deck is only dry fitted in these photos.
 












Last photo for this session shows a comparison of the Amati and Revell stern steel deck section.  I was initially going to use the Amati part, but the modification needed to the Revell part are easier than struggling with the thick brass of the Amati part.






Many thanks everyone for your contributions, your comments and questions are always welcome!

Cheers,

Bill

[Jan]

Wow, looks good! I

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Jan!

Thanks for your kind words, I appreciate your comments.  I can't immediately remember the dimensions of the various size tubing I used for the pressure hull, but I will take some quick measurements tomorrow and let you know.

Cheers,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello!

More progress photos!  After applying a grimy black wash to the pressure hull I finished it up with some clear flat sealer and installed it into the pressure hull.  This was probably a waste of time and effort, it is nearly impossible to actually see the details and the grimy black wash can't really be seen at all!  Anyway, it is all there now so if anyone looks very close in bright light they might actually see something!

Once I got the pressure hull into place I had to drill a hole through the keel and into the bottom of the pressure hull so I could anchor it permanently into place with a screw.  The head of the screw is inset into the keel and sits flush with the styrene. 

A few minor details need to be taken care of and then the main brass deck can be finally fitted into place.  U-45 is starting to actually look like a U-Boat!

















Enjoy the photos and please let me know if you have comments or questions.

Cheers,

Bill

[NZSnowman]

Wow, looks good! I

[UrpoK]

Beautifull work Bill!
Awesome pressure hull!!! 
Timo

[Jan]

Thank you very much, mates!

[Rokket]

Very nice bullnose, and very nice p-hull, impressive

[Greif]

Hi Bill, very impressive work all around!  U-45 looks to be a "museum quality" build thus far. 

Ernest 

[Don in Cincinnati]

Hello!

More progress photos!  After applying a grimy black wash to the pressure hull I finished it up with some clear flat sealer and installed it into the pressure hull.  This was probably a waste of time and effort, it is nearly impossible to actually see the details and the grimy black wash can't really be seen at all!  Anyway, it is all there now so if anyone looks very close in bright light they might actually see something!

A few minor details need to be taken care of and then the main brass deck can be finally fitted into place.  U-45 is starting to actually look like a U-Boat!


Enjoy the photos and please let me know if you have comments or questions.

Cheers,

Bill

Mr Bill:

A great job on the pressure hull. I struggled with the idea of whether to build a pressure hull for my boat, (U96) and, like you, decided to go ahead with it. But even though it is almost invisible I'm glad I did it. 

First off there is the sense of accomplishment that comes from doing a good job, which you sure did. Secondly, it is one of the few parts that wont display small errors. And finally, to quote Siara, "I'll sleep better at night knowing it's there."

I even did weld lines and weathering just to please myself.

Well done, Mr Bill.

Don

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks everyone for your comments and kind words!  I completed a few remaining minor things on the pressure hull and will glue the main deck into place today.  All of the dry fit tests have worked out well and I don't anticipate any problems getting the deck properly into place.  If all goes well, then I will proceed immediately with finishing the deck to hull seams.  More progress photos coming soon!

Cheers,

Bill

[Rokket]

My p-hull is partial (full cone fwd, half stern, curved top only mid), but I think it would have been easier to make a full one! Geat work.

[Don in Cincinnati]

My p-hull is partial (full cone fwd, half stern, curved top only mid), but I think it would have been easier to make a full one! Geat work.

I pretty much did the same, Rocket, but with a full cone on both the bow and stern and a curved mid top center.

I'm not so sure, however, that a full center section would be easier. The real trick here is to get the scratchbuilt hull to nest inside the Revell hull shape in such a way as to allow the two hull pieces to be joined with a minimum of fuss. Glenn Cauley did it, and offers his plans on the AMP site, but even he cautions that it took a lot of dry fitting and trimming to make it work.

One thought here might be to use a pin gauge wherever the P-hull bulkheads occur to allow for a better fit against the Revell profile.

 My guess is, though, that regardless of how one builds that Pressure Hull it's going to take a fair amount of trimming and cutting to make it fit. But then, when it finally does, and despite all the vile oaths uttered along the way, we have the pride of making it all work. That magic moment (All too brief.) where one sets the model in front of them, opens a beverage of choice, and says, "Not bad...not bad at all."

Query: Is it possible to build models without profanity?  The world wonders.

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone,

The Amati brass deck is now permanently attached to the Revell hull.  The inner pressure hull is forever sealed in near darkness, never to be seen in full light again!.   

This step was easier than I had initially thought.  Except for one area near the 88 deck gun position, the Amati deck is an excellent fit into the Revell hull.  This may seem a bit odd as the Amati is a VIIB and the Revell is a VIIC.  After the CA had completely dried, I sanded the deck and hull edge flush and filled the small gap at the 88 gun position with styrene.  Still need some minor filling and sanding, but nothing major.  I am pleased with the result so far.  Enjoy the photos, your comments and questions are always welcome.

[Rokket]

really looks good!

[Siara]

really looks good!

I say it looks fantastic!
Whats your judgement on the P. Hull visibility Bill. Is it worth the effort, or is it just art for the arts sake?

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Siara,

In my opinion, it is not worth the effort.

My observation is that under normal indoor lighting conditions, no details are visible at a typical viewing range.  If you get really close, with your eyeball almost touching the model, you can just make out some dim basic shapes through the flood vents.   

Outdoors, under natural sunlight, it is possible to see some vague details & basic shapes at a close viewing range.  When you get very close and the angle of the sunlight is just right, it is possible to see some of the details.

Basically, once this model is displayed under a glass case, the pressure hull can't be seen through the flood vents or the deck holes.

Having said that, something is needed inside the hull to break up the direct light passing through the flood vents from one side to the other - a PVC pipe or styrene tube is probably enough for a pressure hull unless deck hatches are displayed in the open position allowing more light to enter.

Finally, there is some degree of personal satisfaction knowing that the detail is there even if no one else can see it. 

Cheers,

Bill

[Siara]

Thats my thoughts exactly.

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings Everyone,

Progress continues on U-45 with recent work on the deck mounted 20mm.  The early VIIB's were built with the 20mm located on the main deck rather than the conning tower.  The pedestal for these early 20mm's was different from the later versions, being taller and having a ammo clip rack fastened to the side of the pedestal.  I did not try to use the kit parts and decided to do everything from scratch and from the spares box, except for the pedestal base which I sanded very thin and the hand wheel.

I mainly used photos for my references and a few diagrams.  I was not able to find all of the details I wanted, so I had to assume certain things based on later versions. 

There are a few things remaining to be done such as the shoulder rests and gun sight which I will finish up in the next day or so.
















Thanks for having a look.  If you have any questions or comments, please let me know!

Cheers,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Again!,

More snaps of the 20mm.  Better light today so I think these are a bit sharper than the previous set of photos.  I added some of the details and cleaned up some of the rough spots so it looks better than yesterday.  Just about ready for a coat of primer.  I am not really happy with the wheel, but could not come up with anything better, so it stays.  I may also change the shoulder rests as I think they may be just a bit out of scale.  I think everything else is OK and ready to go!



















Working on the 88 gun today and trying to use the kit parts as much as possible.  So far it is working out well. 

Special thanks to Siara - I am using his photos from the u-552 build as a guide for the 88 gun.  I won't even attempt his level of detail and workmanship. but the photos are a fantastic reference!  Thanks Siara!

Cheers,

Bill

[Rokket]

Bill, nice gun, detailing is excellent

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings!

Today I have some images of the 88mm deck gun to share.  I used most of the parts from the kit along with some old PE hand wheels and some stock styrene.  The kit parts require careful cleanup and some minor modification.  I used a variety of photos for guidance and referred to the section of the superb U-552 build by Sensei Siara that dealt with the deck gun.  There are a few minor details I might add later, but this basically a finished item at this stage ready for cleanup and primer.  One thing I am not sure about is how this gun appeared at commissioning - colours, brace positions, gun sights, and so on.  Any advice or suggestions?
















Please let me know of you have questions or comments!

Cheers,

Bill

[Siara]

Good job Bill.
I think the braces were stowed- as on your gun, and sights were not attached during commisioning ceremony.
i think....

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks Siara,

You are right.  I went back and looked more carefully at the U-45 photos and the braces were in the stowed position and the optical gun sights were not attached on commissioning day.  It is more difficult to determine how the gun was painted.  In some photos it is possible to see a dark grey on the top parts and a lighter grey (same as hull/tower) on the bottom parts.  In other photos, the entire gun looks to be painted in the lighter grey.  My best guess at this point is the dark / light colour scheme as that photo is of better quality.

Cheers,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Everyone,

In reviewing some photos of U-45, I noticed something I have not seen before.  There seems to be a small hatch on the side of the hull just below the deck with two hinges on the bottom.  Perhaps some kind of access panel?  I have not seen this hatch on any other VIIB or VIIC.




Anyone know what this is?  Is it found on other VIIB's?

Thank you for your help.

Bill

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

It is an access panel of some sort. I've seen it on U 47 but can't recall offhand if this panel was on VIICs. A similar panel would have been on the starboard side of U 45 also.

Regarding colours, remember that the 20mm mount was black around the base (same procedure as on the tower).

On commissioning day the paint would be pristine Dunkelgrau 51 (D51). We know it is the medium grey D51 because there is a photo of U 45 on commissioning day in front of a tender. The tender hull is painted D51, as per regualations. The upper colour of U 45 is very similar to the D51 on the tender.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Hello Everyone,

In reviewing some photos of U-45, I noticed something I have not seen before.  There seems to be a small hatch on the side of the hull just below the deck with two hinges on the bottom.  Perhaps some kind of access panel?  I have not seen this hatch on any other VIIB or VIIC.




Anyone know what this is?  Is it found on other VIIB's?

Thank you for your help.

Bill

Hi Bill

I was going to ask the same question yesterday about this hatch I started doing a little research on it over the last few days. Here what I found so far.

• I believe it is on all Type VII's.
• I believe its on both Port and Starboard.
• I believe the hatch enable cables to provide electricity into the boat (See picture below).
• There very little space inside the hatch as it right next to Group 2 of the high pressure air bottles.
• There must be a small catch inside the hatch to keep it closed, as you can see it laying down in the picture below. I initial consideration there was a small spring keeping it closed.
• I believe it is approximately 400-450mm wide and 200-250mm high.

Hope this helps, Simon

[Mr. Bill]

Hi Dougie,

Thanks for the information.  I have reviewed your excellent piece on U-boat colours and will use Testors Model Master enamels - #1721 (Medium Gray) for the upper hull & conning tower and #2101 (Anthrachitgrau) for the lower hull.  I want to use a slightly faded black with a hint of brown for the deck, how about an undercoat of brown with a light spray of Anthracitgrau - or would this be to light?  Smaller details, such as the black stripe on the 20mm pedestal and conning tower, will be guided your article.  Following colour coats, I will apply a gloss clear coat of Future and then some very light wash to bring out some shadows and details.  I might try a brown wash on the deck.  No weathering or rust as I want to show U-45 on commissioning day as per the photos. Finally, everything will be sprayed with flat clear.  

Thanks Again!

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Simon,

Many thanks for the detailed information on that access panel, very helpful!  I am sure you are correct about it being a standard feature on all Type VII boats.  I went back and looked more closely at my books and that access panel does appear in photos and diagrams of VIIB and VIIC boats, I never really noticed it before. The photo you posted clearly shows it being some kind of attachment point for dockside umbilical, probably electric as you mentioned.  I doubt it would be for water/sewage, but maybe.

Thanks!

Bill

[Bad Karma]

Hi guys,

This is for charching the batteries when the boat is in port.
without running the boats own diesels engines.
(source;U-boats in camera,page 24)

I believe this is the hatch too



(source;zu tode gesiegt,page 131)


regards,

Ron.


 

[NZSnowman]

Hi Ron

Great picture!!!! It nice and clear... Your right about the two screws holding the hatch closed, you can see them clearly in this picture. I will add this detail to my drawing.

Also from the photo the hatch look nearer to 450mm wide.

If you are wondering about the attachment point (in pink), I believe it an attachment plate for the legs support of the torpedo loading cradle.

[wildspear]

The quality of the picture is really great. very good detail.

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

Regarding deck colours Anthracitgrau might work well over a brown undercoat...I think there must be various ways of achieving a desired finish. Given that it is a commissioning ceremony perhaps the deck may have received a coat of black preservative? If so then the deck would be darker and less brown.   

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Here a similar photograph of this hatch on a Type IX.

[NZSnowman]

Also a Type VII U-609

[UrpoK]

Hi guys,

I

[NZSnowman]

Timo, good spotting!!! I do not see that. But is it not always cold in Germamy 

There was some text with the picture (see below). I can not remember where I got the picture or know that book it found. However, the idea about the hot water is very good!! You do not need two cable for power plus the diesel engine would love the hot water before starting it in cold weather.   

[Pat]

I'm not convinced about the connection being forhot water for several reasons.

1 You don't need two hoses for hot water.  If hot water was circulated in the engines to warm them up for starting, it would just be discharched into the ocean through the usual engine cooling system.

2 It would be very difficult to keep the water hot enough in winter while going through a hose.  I've never seen indications of any sort of boilers either portable or fixed along the quaysides meaning that such hoses would have to be several hundred feet long.

3 The picture of the Type IX from Snowman seems to be out on the water, with the hoses originating under the deck and going and going to the hatch.  An unusual arrangement for power, but even stranger if it was for hot water on a boat that should have the heater and all the water pipes inside the PH.

4 While in port, it makes sense to have shore power to run ship systems so that the engines can be shut down for servicing and to give the crew a respite from the constant noise.

5 Some of the larger boats at my YC have more than one power cable attached while they're in port because one cable can't carry enough electricity to keep everthing running like refrigeration, A/C, fans, lights, radios, etc.  And shore power connections even 30 years ago when I started boating weren't very good.  15 AMP power was common back then, while now 30 AMP is standard.  I'd think in the 40's, the cables might have been even more primitive requiring two for a boat as big as a U-boat.

6 Diesel engines that I'm familiar with have "glow plugs" to heat them up before starting.  These plugs would require electricity, not water.

7 If a boat needed hot water to keep the engines warm enough to start in Germany, how would the boats on the Murmansk Convoy Route have started their engines after surfacing in the middle of the winter during a patrol?  Again, a glow plug, if required, would take power from the batteries.

[UrpoK]

Hi Pat,

Good points and interesting facts!

I

[bracco_n]

Mr. Bill! Any progress to report over here?

[Mr. Bill]

Hello!

It has been ages since I posted anything!  Where did the time go???  U-45 remains as it was - I have done nothing of any consequence since my last post many months ago.  Other projects have been completed, but U-45 has remained dormant.  Don't really know why.  Some kind of horrible mental block/aversion to working on this project, I just can't seem to get going again.  My son has gone away to university which has left my bride of 27 years and I to experience a second kind of honeymoon which has intruded on time available for other activities!

I look at u-45 almost daily sitting there on the workbench gathering dust, but every time I reach out to make a start I recoil - sometimes I feel like Dracula trying to grab a bulb of garlic!

Fear not - I will continue this project.  Soon.  No more excuses. 

Cheers,

Bill

[Rokket]

when the time is right..just make sure you make the time right sometime!

[Greif]

Hi Bill, I am hoping my bride of 24 years and I will be having a second honeymoon next year when my youngest leaves the home.  And if I can push the right buttons maybe she will turn the clock back to that first honeymoon for certain activities.    

If all works out like I hope modelling will be put on a back burner - for a couple of weeks at least.  (HaHa)

I'm sure you will find the magic at the workbench again for this model.

Ernest

Hello!

It has been ages since I posted anything!  Where did the time go???  U-45 remains as it was - I have done nothing of any consequence since my last post many months ago.  Other projects have been completed, but U-45 has remained dormant.  Don't really know why.  Some kind of horrible mental block/aversion to working on this project, I just can't seem to get going again.  My son has gone away to university which has left my bride of 27 years and I to experience a second kind of honeymoon which has intruded on time available for other activities!

I look at u-45 almost daily sitting there on the workbench gathering dust, but every time I reach out to make a start I recoil - sometimes I feel like Dracula trying to grab a bulb of garlic!

Fear not - I will continue this project.  Soon.  No more excuses. 

Cheers,

Bill

[NZSnowman]

Hi Bill

Going back to the hatch question on U-45. http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=162.msg5395#msg5395

While doing some research on the under decking piping I found a plan for the Steam heating system from www.uboatarchive.net http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate24.htm

You can clearly see the in/out pipes for the system. However, from these plans it look like that the hull opening is in the Petty Officers Room. This hatch is location at either frame 30½ or 31½ which are next to the Engine Room, So I next checked the hull openings in the ‘U-Boat Training for U-Boat Type VII C’ also from www.uboatarchive.net. It says there no opening for these pipes in the Petty Officers Room but in the Engine Room.

So it seems that the pipes join up before goings inside the hull pressure in the Engine Room

[NZSnowman]

Also Bill, here what looks like the base support plate for the connect points for the pipes.

Link to full size image http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3823/new1ja.jpg
Image from http://town.ural.ru/ship/war/ub1944.php3

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Simon,

Many thanks for the details on the steam heating pipes.  Incredible how you can unearth these very obscure details on U-Boats!  I am planning to scratch build the hatch for these pipes in the closed position, so the inner details will not be shown (the deck is already permanently in place anyway).  I have recently sat down with U-45 again and am dusting things off and going over the major assemblies to refresh myself on where I left off.

I have set up the conning tower so it will be fastened to the deck with a fine thread machine bolt and matched nut under the deck. The bolt head is recessed and hidden under the base of the periscope mount.  This way, no cement is required and I can take as much time as I want to align the conning tower without having to worry about any cement drying.  

After a very long time underwater, my U-45 project seems about to surface from the deep once again!

Cheers,

Bill

[Pat]

Your idea of how to attach the CT is very close to what I was planning for the capstan on my U-boat. 

I wanted to make it revolve like the real one, but be detachable to be able to portray it either on or off as the real ones, and I figured that a fine machine screw inside, mounted so that it can turn and matching with a nut under the deck would look and work just about like real.

But I'm at a loss as to where to find such a screw and nut.  The screw has to be at least 1.25 cm long to give enough support under the deck and inside the capstan, but I don't know where to find one like that.

Any ideas?

[Mr. Bill]

Hi Pat,

A possible source for the hardware you are seeking may be a well stocked electronics supplier, like Radio Shack in North America.  In the past, they had a good selection of fine thread nuts and bolts in various sizes, but I don't know their current inventory status.  Another source may be an upper end model railroad parts supplier, in the past I remember a brand (Grant???) with a line of very small precision brass hardware - some being very small.

To better illustrate what I did, here are some photos:

The first shows the bolt just by itself passing through the hole in the deck and threaded a few turns into the nut under the deck.  The nut was secured with a few pieces of styrene and superglue before the deck was cemented to the hull.  This is a simple rig intended for a minimum of threading and unthreading only - it is not a robust design, just enough to secure the conning tower properly in place without using any adhesive.



This next image shows the bolt fully threaded in place with the conning tower (still in primer).  A thin nylon washer helps to more evenly spread the pressure of the bolt to the conning tower.



The last image is of the set up from above.  The head of the bolt sits flush with the deck and will be covered by the periscope housing.


I still need to fill in the old Amati conning tower outline in the brass deck as it does not exactly conform to the modified Revell conning tower footprint.  I think I will try some very thin styrene strip and superglue, then carefully sand it level with the rest of the deck.

Cheers,

Bill

[DB Andrus]

Your idea of how to attach the CT is very close to what I was planning for the capstan on my U-boat. 

I wanted to make it revolve like the real one, but be detachable to be able to portray it either on or off as the real ones, and I figured that a fine machine screw inside, mounted so that it can turn and matching with a nut under the deck would look and work just about like real.

But I'm at a loss as to where to find such a screw and nut.  The screw has to be at least 1.25 cm long to give enough support under the deck and inside the capstan, but I don't know where to find one like that.

Any ideas?

Pat, will these bolts/screws work for you?

http://www.micromark.com/ROUND-HEAD-MACHINE-SCREWS-00-90-x-1and2-PKG-OF-10,7295.html

http://www.micromark.com/HEX-HEAD-MACHINE-SCREWS-00-90-x-1and2-PKG-OF-10,7327.html

http://www.micromark.com/NUTS-00-90-PKG-OF-10,7340.html

If too small they also have 0-80 sizes.

HTH,

D.B. Andrus

[Mr. Bill]

I remembered the correct name of the manufacturer for small precision hardware, it is the Grandt Line.  They have several items listed under their "Complete Product Listing" section of their website:

http://www.grandtline.com/product_listing.htm

Cheers,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello!

I have been working on u-45 lately and am starting to paint the conning tower.  I want to complete this as a subassembly before completing the hull.  I was trying to select an appropriate black paint colour for the conning tower deck and decided to check the photos.  Well, after studying the photos of U-45, I am now confused about the deck colour.  It is generally accepted that the wooden decks on U-Boats were initially stained black and would fade / weather quickly.  Since I am doing U-45 at the time of her commissioning, I was going to go with a new black deck look, but after staring at the photos of U-45 on commissioning day I am beginning to wonder about the black deck colour.

Here is the dilemma.  The photos seem to show the deck being noticeably lighter in colour than the black stripe around the base of the conning tower and the top of the compass housing.  Although the photos are black & white, they are very clear and sharp without any odd shadows or lighting that I can discern.  The deck appears to be much lighter than the known black areas - maybe not black at all, but a dark gray?  Like the saddle tanks?

Please have a look at this photo - what do you think?  This is driving me to distraction and I would greatly appreciate any help in interpreting the deck colour on this photo.

Cheers,

Bill

[Pat]

The picture you have of U-45 is a pre=war picture.  They repainted the boats when the war started.

There are at least 4 items that give it away as pre-war.

1. There is a big white number on the side of the CT

2. There is a bronze eagle at the front of the CT

3. The hi-press oxygen connections marking is (the "+" sign in a square) os painted (red and white?)

4. The red and white rescue marker buoy is clearly visible behind the CT

And the following are not necessarily only pre-war, but usually

5. There is a red horshoe ring at the side of the CT

6. There is no spray guard around the lower part of the CT

7. There is only a very small deflector at the top of the CT

8. The 20mm gun is on the deck behind the CT instead of on the back part of the CT

All that being said, the pre-war boats did not have wooden decks but were all metal.  So instead of being stained black, they could be painted.  And yes, it does look like this deck is the same colour as the topsides of the boat.

[Rokket]

That seems completely thorough, accurate, and excellent logic. I'm just wondering about all metal deck...there was wood in the early days, and then they switched to crap wood...so why all metal pre war?

[Greif]

Nice work Bill.  Good idea with you fastening method for the CT!

Ernest

[Pat]

That seems completely thorough, accurate, and excellent logic. I'm just wondering about all metal deck...there was wood in the early days, and then they switched to crap wood...so why all metal pre war?

Good question and I don't know if there's a historical record anywhere to answer it.

But my guess is that in the early days, the old time sailors knew that wood such as teak was the best for making decks since it was non-slip and so resitant to rot.  But at some point after that, when navies were switching to steel from wood, they just naturally assumed that steel was so much stronger and would always be better in every application.  If they needed non-slip, they could just forge that right into the steel deckplates.

Between the wars, there wasn't much use of submarines, so that thought was kept, and the few U-boats around the Spanish coast in the 30's didn't see much (any?) action and so there were no reports of the problems with steel.

However, once WWII started, and particularly when so many U-boats were sent to Norway to harrass the Murmansk-bound convoys, it was realized that wood was still a better material for decks even on a sub.  Perhaps especially on a sub since a U-boat's deck are almost always wet.  Steel and water at below zero temperatures is a recipe for disaster, and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to use a deck gun on a deck with rapidly forming ice after just surfacing.

The reason they went to crap wood of course was that by this time in the war, teak, which comes from the far east, just wasn't available but pine was easily gotten all around the Baltic.  It didn't matter that it was didn't last very long, it was much easier to replace even than teak.  The crew could even make some repairs themselves.

[Mr. Bill]

Hello Pat,

Many thanks for your comments.  The speculation about a steel deck is certainly new to me.  I don't believe I have ever come across this before and am very interested to know more.  Perhaps you can point us to a reference or source for a steel deck on any Type VII boat?

There are some unique characteristics of U-45 mentioned in the earlier pages of this topic thread that you may find interesting including several Bundesarchiv photos from the summer of 1938 depicting U-45 at the time of her Indienststellung and prototype testing.  Being the first of the Type VIIB boats, she had a few things that none of the others had which is one of the reasons I selected her for this project, but a steel deck has never been mentioned. 

Cheers,

Bill 

[bracco_n]

What's the status of the project Mr.Bill? Have you made any progress?

[Mr. Bill]

I have started to paint the conning tower with a thin initial coat of Model Master Medium Gray (1721) applied with my ancient airbrush.  Next is to paint the conning tower deck and I am trying to determine the proper deck colour of U-45 at the time of her commissioning in June of 1938.  Black is commonly considered to be correct, but photos seem to indicate a deck colour other than black.  Maybe just a trick of light, but the deck seems so much lighter than the known black areas.  Please have a look at the photo and let me know what you think about the deck colour.

Cheers,

Bill

[Greif]

Hi Bill, while researching my Type IIa U3 build, which I built to resemble the uboot as she looked circa 1938, I found out that uboot decks were not painted with the black coating that wartime uboot decks were.  Photos of prewar uboots bear this out, as you have seen the color of the decks are much lighter then those of wartime uboots.  I have never been able to find out, but the decks of prewar uboots may have been teak; but that is just specualtion on my part.  What I am sure of is that all prewar uboots had either unpainted decks or they may have used a clear type of preservative. 

It makes sense when you consider the several different paint variations of prewar uboats.  The Kriegsmarine did alot of testing between 1935 and the beginning of WWII to find the right color combinations that provided the best "low-vis" scheme.  I am sure they also tested ways to preserve uboot decks as they gained training experience from the mid-1930s. 

Hope this helps,
Ernest

I have started to paint the conning tower with a thin initial coat of Model Master Medium Gray (1721) applied with my ancient airbrush.  Next is to paint the conning tower deck and I am trying to determine the proper deck colour of U-45 at the time of her commissioning in June of 1938.  Black is commonly considered to be correct, but photos seem to indicate a deck colour other than black.  Maybe just a trick of light, but the deck seems so much lighter than the known black areas.  Please have a look at the photo and let me know what you think about the deck colour.

Cheers,

Bill

[dougie47]

Hello chaps,

Interesting topic. As mentioned, the black strip on the base of the tower was painted black. And the wooden deck was stained with a black wood preservative. However, I don't think they would necessarily look the same in a b&w photo - they are different materials applied to different surfaces (paint applied to steel / preservative applied on wood).

Ernest, I've looked back at pre-war Type II decks and for the most part they look the same as wartime decks. I can see a few shots that look lighter but I can find many that look quite dark. But it is possible that other lighter presevatives were used, particularly in the pre-war period for the reasons you mentioned.

The pattern of slots on U 45's deck is the classic pattern used for the VII wooden deck. If you study the following photo of U 35 -

http://www.u-35.com/photo/GrafSpee5.jpg

As can be seen, the damaged sections of the deck are wood.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Mr. Bill]

Thanks everyone for your help, it has been of substantial value as usual.  After much careful consideration and some experimentation, I have selected Testors enamel Model Master Schwarzgrau '39 - '43 (#2094) for the main deck and conning tower deck colour.  When dry, it gives a nice faded black look - not really black, but not really dark gray either.  It contrasts well with black and seems to portray the overall look of U-45 at commissioning very nicely.  I think it would also work well sprayed very thin over a dark brown to depict a U-boat in service.  I considered several other colours - Burnt Umber was close, but too much brown and Aircraft Interior Black was just a little bit too black.  I tried a few custom mixes, but they all turned out poorly.

Once I get the conning tower completed, I will post some snaps so you can judge for yourself.

Cheers,

Bill

[bracco_n]

Can't wait to see some photos!

[Greif]

Hi Dougie, you are very likely correct.  I saw some photos of U2, U3 and U5, in the German Miltary Archives that were taken circa 1938.  The decks look very, very light and I jumped to the conclusion that all uboot decks must have looked that way prewar.  The photos were taken in Kiel harbor so those 3 uboots might have been refitting, with the decks freshly holystoned and ready for a new coat of presevative.  Thats what I get for jumping to conclusions!

Ernest

Hello chaps,

Interesting topic. As mentioned, the black strip on the base of the tower was painted black. And the wooden deck was stained with a black wood preservative. However, I don't think they would necessarily look the same in a b&w photo - they are different materials applied to different surfaces (paint applied to steel / preservative applied on wood).

Ernest, I've looked back at pre-war Type II decks and for the most part they look the same as wartime decks. I can see a few shots that look lighter but I can find many that look quite dark. But it is possible that other lighter presevatives were used, particularly in the pre-war period for the reasons you mentioned.

The pattern of slots on U 45's deck is the classic pattern used for the VII wooden deck. If you study the following photo of U 35 -

http://www.u-35.com/photo/GrafSpee5.jpg

As can be seen, the damaged sections of the deck are wood.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Mr. Bill]

Hello!

Cold and wet weather has prevented me from painting yesterday and today so I worked on some details for the conning tower.  Scratch built the two turnbuckles that appear on either side of the conning tower using a photo from U-47 as a guide.  I used very small steel tubing and pieces of brass formed into rings.  Thanks for having a look, please let me know if you have any questions or comments!

Cheers,

Bill

Photo of U-47



Close up of turnbuckle for U-45

[FoxbaT]

Beautiful turnbuckle! Wel done and a great improvement 



Karel

[dougie47]

Hi Bill,

Nice work on that turnbuckle, looks like the real thing.

Ernest, I think I recall some photos of pre-war Type IIs in bright sunshine, with their decks looking quite light. Might be the same one you saw in the archives. Trying to decipher colours from black and white photos is always a challenge. We really need a time machine!

Cheers,

Dougie

[Mr. Bill]

Constant rain and cold temperatures again today, but I decided to risk a quick painting session on the 88 deck gun - seems to have worked so far....   When the weather clears, I will follow this up with a coat of clear gloss future, some light wash to bring out the details and then a clear flat sealer.

Thanks for having a look, your comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Cheers,

Bill

[Rokket]

Beaut gun and turnbuckles. I was wondering why you didn't buy the AMP (now WEM) set that includes turnbuckles, but you did a fabulous job scratching, so you obviously don't need the set!

[Mr. Bill]

Greetings,

I just finished an initial attempt at the two emergency buoy markers that appear on the decks of the pre-war Type VIIB boats.  Scratch built from cut down doll eyes and strip styrene with the light being a oblong shaped glass bead set into a styrene tube.  This image shows one of the buoy markers, still needs a bit of final work.  I am trying to figure out a way to do the wire guard that surrounds the light globe, but I might just let this go.  I have also been moving forward with the conning tower and other details and am rapidly approaching a point were I can share some photos.  In the meantime, please let me know if you have any questions.

Cheers,

Bill

[Mr. Bill]

Hello!

Here are some images of the conning tower showing the preliminary paint and some details - still very much in progress, but the photos at least demonstrate where I am with the project.  As you can see, things appear a bit raw and unfinished in these progress photos, but will improve as further painting, washes, and sealers are applied.  Apologies for the mediocre photo quality, these were taken under poor indoor lighting conditions with flash. 

The first image shows the bronze eagle, which looks brighter than it actually is due to the camera flash reflection.



This photo shows the Schwarzgrau colour on the conning tower deck.  The red navigation light is a glass bead dry fitted just for the photo.



The white board under the ladder rungs is just a piece of paper that I quickly cut out to give an idea how the final item will appear.  I may try some other materials or perhaps a thinner paper.


Last photo for today gives a good look at the Schwarzgrau colour on the conning tower deck.


Thanks again for looking.  Your comments, queries, and suggestions are always welcome!

Cheers,

Bill

[TRM]

Great work Bill!  Deck color looks awesome! Looking forward to seeing your weathering!

Cheers!

[Rokket]

nice detailing. the little things "sell" it

[Greif]

Simply outstanding work Bill.  Your attention to detail and scratchbuilding skills are first rate indeed.

Ernest