Author Topic: Type XXVII (Seehund) - General topic (Read 12577 times)

Islandern · « **on:** 13 Apr , 2017, 01:19 »

Type XXVII (Seehund) Colour help needed!
Can someone assist me with the different colour codes / schemes that was used on the Seehund. What about "Hellgrau 50", "Dunkelgrau 51". My sub is from the later part of the war. This info seems allmost impossible to find...

Help is very much appreciated. Thank you.

Anakin · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Apr , 2017, 06:06 »

Hi and welcome!

You might find colour schemes and colour codes from AMP main sites pdf books... Tons of information there...

http://amp.rokket.biz/lib_uboats.shtml

-Anakin-

Islandern · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Apr , 2017, 15:08 »

Thanks, but I have been reading through them, but not much about the xxvii for a pity $:-\$

dougie47 · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Apr , 2017, 13:14 »

Hello folks,

Sorry Islandern, I was not able to put any information on the Seehund in the colours article as I don't have any relevant information on the subject. There are not many photos available but in those that are there appears to be no upper grey and lower grey. There just looks to be one colour on the entire submarine. Some information, inclluding four schemes, can be found here -

http://modellboard.net/index.php?topic=32687.0

The top two profiles in the instructions show a sort of medium grey. At a guess this migth be Dunkelgrau 51.

The third one down shows white spots over a dark grey. If this was a real scheme the dark grey could have been RAL7016. The white spots could either have been white or perhpas even Hellgrau 50.

The bottom profile shows an overall dark grey which could be RAL7016.

As for the colour of the torpedoes in the profiles, I am not sure about the red head.

Sorry that I cannot provide proper information.

Cheers,

Dougie

SG · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Apr , 2017, 13:22 »

Thats the closest thing to the real thing i suppose

https://www.facebook.com/kolorierte.unterseeboote.von.edwardtambunan/photos/a.502479573162468.1073741828.501189529958139/628396547237436/?type=3&theater

Cheers,

SG

Natter · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 May , 2017, 10:31 »

Quote from: dougie47 on 17 Apr , 2017, 13:14

Some information, inclluding four schemes, can be found here -
http://modellboard.net/index.php?topic=32687.0

I have no knowledge of the painting of the Seehund itself, but the appearance of the torpedoes on those schemes are ridicilus. Pure fantasy! :-(

Sadly, most modellers seem to follow the manufacturers instructions blindly, ending up with mostly accurate vessels and torpedoes that doesn't even resembel the real thing (thus "destroying" the whole model - from my point of view). I don't think I have ever seen a model with proper german torpedoes (considering both colours and other details).

Islandern · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Oct , 2017, 05:20 »

Thank you all for your reply.

SG, the link you posted seems to be broken, do you have the possibility to redirect me so I can see the picture?

Dougie, thanks for your input. I will most likely go for one of those when painting later on.

Sadly, I've been of the grid for a while. Working offshore and moving at home. But soon my stuffs is unpacked. Will be great.

Regards,

Anders

Islandern · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Nov , 2017, 03:17 »

According to Revells instructions they have their "U-5316 North Sea version" colour codings.

They want the hull to be "Grau, Seidenmatt 374 (Revell colours) and it has the RAL 7001 number.
Can I go with Hellgrau 50 Baltic as it seems to be more or less exact?

Was there a "North Sea" version and "Kiel" version?

dougie47 · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Nov , 2017, 11:51 »

Hello Anders,

Me again. As discussed in my previous post, the colour you called "Hellgrau 50 Baltic" - which I call "Hellgrau 50 (normal)" - is RAL7001. Since Revell 374 is supposed to be RAL7001 then I would say the answer to your question is yes - it will be fine to use for this paint colour.

I really don't know about Seehunds at all. My guess is the "North Sea version" and "Kiel version" are the two names Revell gave to the two different colour schemes in their instruction sheet.

Please let me know if anything I have written in the two posts is unclear.

Cheers,

Dougie

Islandern · « **Reply #9 on:** 02 Dec , 2017, 08:08 »

Thank you again Dougie, nothing is unclear at all of your texts.

My problem has been to find "true facts" on the web about the colour codings and Seehund. But I will go with the "Hellgrau 50" (Normal) for now, (lets swap Normal for Baltic then).

Islandern · « **Reply #10 on:** 06 Mar , 2018, 15:05 »

Does someone have detailed pictures of an XXVII periscope - especially the part with the lens?

Thank you,

Anders

(Closing in on the build, I am not the fastest but enjoy it much. )

David83 · « **Reply #11 on:** 07 Mar , 2018, 12:01 »

Dear Islandern

Maybe you should get this book its hard to find but worth the money ,everything inside what you need for the Seehund .

Attached a picture out of the book of the seehund persiscope

br David

Islandern · « **Reply #12 on:** 08 Mar , 2018, 02:31 »

David, Wow! Thank you. I have been searching on the internet but not found any picture like this.

I don't have this book, I'll post it on my (by now long) wish list!

Thanks, have a good day.

David83 · « **Reply #13 on:** 08 Mar , 2018, 11:41 »

Welcome Islandern

if you need pictures of the other part of the seehund please feel free to ask .
Maybe i can help you with pictures out of the book .

br David

Natter · « **Reply #14 on:** 08 Mar , 2018, 13:52 »

I have never seen any first-hand account (or original colour-photo) in regards to colour used on the Seehund (or any other german WW2 midget submarines), so - as mentioned before - the input you get here are just more or less qualified guessing/suggestions.
The colourschemes found in modelmakers instructions are for sure just fantasy or based on the colour being used on the vessels displayed in museums (which were used by the manufacturer in the prosess of making the model kit). The museums are just using the paint they have at hand, so no help there. I think the only valid exception might be the IWM Biber, provided they stayed true to the original colour during the repaints being done since 1945 (it was captured during the war and kept in it's original state until being transferred to IWM).

All in all, there are no sure answer unless someone dig up original german regulations with name or RAL/RLM-code for the colours beeing used (I doubt it existed in 44/45, and especially that any such documents might have survivied in museums/archives). Ie: You'd be just as correct by making your own choice of grey/blue shade.

I have collected some photos/drawings in a zip-file for you, just in case you can find it useful in regards to the perioscope: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbk0z93z3hojd8s/Seehund.zip?dl=0

Islandern · « **Reply #15 on:** 09 Mar , 2018, 06:52 »

Thanks David - I will keep that in mind, though by now I have done fairly much of the buildings, paintings left. The book tips is highly interesting anyway. I bought the "Midget submarines of the second world war, by Paul Kemp" recently. It has very good information also, specially the GA plans in the end.

Thanks for the photos Natter, some of them I have not seen before.
I think you are correct, I have not seen any originaly colour photos, or remainings of the seehund in its original colour either.
My own conclusion is that, as this was used in the later part of the war, and built in the same yards as the larger subs, I don't se any reasons fot that the same colours was used for them, as they was close by anyway. Most black and white photos I have seen shows a light colour, thefore I will go with the "Hellgrau 50 normal". A light grey colour.

I try to add some picture to this post, and then you can see how my project is developing.

I have bought some PE upgrade sets for it, and I have also made some modification to it to make it fit.

Some modifications you can see is,
Cut out flooding holes around, including tower, made the tower slight higher to fit with the internal conning tower, wood fender under the torpedo, torpedo railings. I tried to edit resin rivets in the compass and air inlet, and hinges at the hatch.

On the hatch, i drilled it out, tried to make a glass cupole out of clear styrene sheet (this was unbelievable tricky!), but now you can look through the bubble and down in to the sub. I also added the handle for the hatch and hinges to it.

It looks like most seehunds was equipped with mooring eylets so I added them also.

The rudder is PE upgrade.

I hope the end result will be good. I know I am a slow builder but I do it step by step and I have to add also that I am only on dry land half year as I work at sea.

Next time I'm at home, i will paint and weather, and building the torpedoes.

I have to add that I am a true beginner and that this is my second real model.

Hope you find it interesting.

Have a good weekend,

Anders

Natter · « **Reply #16 on:** 09 Mar , 2018, 07:15 »

Quote from: Islandern on 09 Mar , 2018, 06:52

My own conclusion is that, as this was used in the later part of the war, and built in the same yards as the larger subs, I don't se any reasons fot that the same colours was used for them, as they was close by anyway. Most black and white photos I have seen shows a light colour, thefore I will go with the "Hellgrau 50 normal". A light grey colour.

That might be a reasonable approach.

I have no special knowledge on the topic, but you should consider one noticeable difference between the ordinary and midget submarines: They had very different areas of operations. Midget submarines were limited in both range and diving-depths, and operated mainly in littoral waters (ie close to the shore, in narrow fiords and harbours). They had a different need for camouflage because of this (don't forget that midget submarines were primary moved by road on trailers as well). Of course, there's also a difference operating in the North Sea/ English Channel or the Mediterranean...

The Seehund was perhaps more of an "intermediate" vessel compared to for instance a Type VII and a Biber, but nevertheless... (the french navy used the Seehund for several years after the war, and they painted them black, as is a common colour used for submarines today with dark blue and dark green).

Natter · « **Reply #17 on:** 09 Mar , 2018, 07:18 »

Quote from: Islandern on 09 Mar , 2018, 06:52

Next time I'm at home, i will paint and weather, and building the torpedoes.

Hope you do some research on the torpedoes (for instance: http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=407.0 ), as NO modelmanufacturer has torpedoes that are close to the real thing (and I will not begin commenting on their ridicilus paint-instructions... :-( ).

It's sad to see all the fantastic skills employed in builiding great submarine and E-boat models, with the overall impression being destroyed by the "fantasy" torpedes...

Islandern · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Mar , 2018, 12:19 »

Hi Natter, I appreciate your contribution of knowledge to this thread.

Yes, for sure the Seehund had other operational tasks then the larger subs. I think you can consider it to have a somewhat larger operational area then some of the other midget submarines.

However, the torpedoes is an interesting topic. I have read through that thread once, and I think you and me has been discussing torpedoes in the later part of the thread regarding the colours and markings.

I accually don't know so much regarding the torpedos used on the seehund, and there is not many original photos of them with torpedos mounted.

Here is a link from a stranded Seehund in Belgium, early veresion. Some pictures shows little of the torpedoes.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205026376

I just built the kit torpedoes that came with the model, and I realized how dull they are, so I decided to get the next best I could find, resin torpedoes from https://www.cmkkits.com/en/ships/ww-ii-german-torpedo-type-g7e-3-pcs/.

To mension from your comment above, you dislike them. Can you tell why?
I don't have so deep knowledge to tell whats wrong, but like to know so I can add or modify them.

The other I looked at whas the PE torpedos from Griffon models, but I am way to much of a beginner to handle all of that PE.

I also have hard times to understand if the seehund had the G7e T1/2/3 mounted, or maybe that varied over time.

Comments on the Seehund and torpedoes are welcome.

Thanks.

Natter · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Mar , 2018, 14:05 »

Quote from: Islandern on 14 Mar , 2018, 12:19

Hi Natter, I appreciate your contribution of knowledge to this thread.

Just happy to contribute if I can (I'm no expert though).

Quote from: Islandern

I accually don't know so much regarding the torpedos used on the seehund, and there is not many original photos of them with torpedos mounted.

Quote from: Islandern

I also have hard times to understand if the seehund had the G7e T1/2/3 mounted, or maybe that varied over time.

According to german records, the Seehund was only operational with two torpedoes: The G7e(TIIIc) and the G7e(TIIIe) "Kreuzotter". These were almost identical, and exterior-wise the only difference was the type of warhead/pistol and slightly differently formed siderudders (the "Kreuzotter" used the more advanced Kb2 warhead and TZ5 pistol).

The Seehund was also successfully tested with the wireguided G7e(TXa) "Spinne", and was scheduled to be equipped with this torpedo in july/august 1945 (it never happened for obvious reasons).

Quote from: Islandern

Here is a link from a stranded Seehund in Belgium, early veresion. Some pictures shows little of the torpedoes.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205026376

You can see more of the photos here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=seehund

Quote from: Islandern

I just built the kit torpedoes that came with the model, and I realized how dull they are, so I decided to get the next best I could find, resin torpedoes from https://www.cmkkits.com/en/ships/ww-ii-german-torpedo-type-g7e-3-pcs/.
To mension from your comment above, you dislike them. Can you tell why?

It's hard to judge the drawings, but in general, the "normal" errors found in german torpedoes are:
* Wrong colors (always...)
* Design of the hull (typically using a "generic" G7a or G7e hull paired with the opposite tail)
* Faulty design of the pistol
* Faulty design of the propellers
* Faulty design of the tailpiece/rudders
* For the G7e torpedoes it's also very common to have 4-blade propellers + "rivets" on the battery and enginecompartment hatches.
* Missing netcutters on torpedoes for midget submarines (of course, they might have used torpedoes without netcutters - evidence exists in photos, but by default they should use torpedoes with netcutters).

There are plenty of photos available online, so most of these errors should be quite easy to correct by altering the model.