Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 664739 times)

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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4000 on: 12 Jun , 2019, 14:53 »
Thanks for the bilge info.


Ok, next question, what is this shield that is outboard of both engines? Depending on which drawing you look at, it either angles down or it had a compound curve that angles back upwards. Is this some sort of sheetmetal shield or bracing? Looking at the drawings it is difficult to decipher what it is exactly.


In Simon's drawing it is clearer from overhead but it isn't clear which direction it goes or what material it is made from. To me it looks like it curves down from the engine bed rail to the frame ribs.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4001 on: 13 Jun , 2019, 02:57 »
Katuna.

I assume you refer to the two black rectangles between the frames towards bord and the engine. Below is Simons drawing of the dieselair system. As the dieselengines are fairly large they need a lot of air for combustion. This air would create a substansial draft through the submarines compartments hence you need a separate diesel air supply shaft outside the pressurehull as drawn by Simon. Although the dieselair shaft main inlet valve is situated in the tower casing, the intake is susceptible to water during heavy sea and the airduct gets partly filled with seawater. Just after the main intake hullvalve for the dieselair ( in the engineroom) the circular air duct is split in two, and transferred into rectangular sheet metal ducts, port and starboard, which fits between the frames towards the pressurehull , the ducts ends up halfway from the bilges. Hence the seawater ends into the bilge and the mainengine air intakes are safely from the water. During heavy weather it was fascinating to see how much water was gushing into the bilge where it could be handled by the bilge pump in the controlroom.
Tore 
« Last Edit: 13 Jun , 2019, 03:12 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4002 on: 13 Jun , 2019, 08:45 »
This is the plate I'm speaking of. It appears to go under the starting air tank and over the oxygen tank.


I was unaware there was a duct from the Induction valve to the intakes.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4003 on: 13 Jun , 2019, 11:25 »
Katuna.
What you refer to is the mainengine foundation steelbed in the engineroom which is a very thick steelplate where the mainengine is adjusted and fixed by bolts and nuts. The foundation has of course to be very stable and rigidly connected to the hull. Simons drawing shows the top bedplate which has to be accurately placed for correct adjustment of the mainengine bedplate. The foundation plate is slightly elevated and outside the engine contact surface bended and tapered down to the frames where it is fixed by welding for an extra rigid and stable connection to the hull. See image below.
Tore

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4004 on: 13 Jun , 2019, 12:04 »

Ok, that's what I thought but could never verify with a clear end view.


I see now the air intake duct. So if I understand correctly, the duct ran below that stabilizing plate and the plate acted as a diffuser or baffle to allow sea water to drop out into the bilge and air was pulled up into the intake through the spacings in the plate?


Then this would be the induction duct, correct?
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4005 on: 13 Jun , 2019, 14:03 »
Katuna.
Yes you found the the main dieselair inletvalve and the rectangular duct to each of the engines. I don`t think the downfolded topplate for the mainengine bedplate plays a role in the dieselair ducts, they are mainly a strenghtening element in the engine foundation. Apart from delivering air to the engines the ducts are draining the seawater freely to the bilges. As to the diesel air shaft going from the main inletvalve in the towercasing to the main hullvalve at the engineroom it add a fairly large enclosed airvolume to displacement when submerged. We once had an unpleasant issue after a refit during some testdives in a deep fjord. Somehow the dieselair mainvalve in the tower didn`t shut properly and the diesel air shaft gradually got filled with seawater. We just dropped down like an elevator and at some 50 meter we blew all the ballast tanks and everybody were staring at the depthgauge  which just kept moving until it slowed down and finally the needle pointed at some 125meter before the submarine stopped and very slowly started to ascend. Then she accelerated towards the surface as the air in the ballasttanks expanded and the  ex U 995 broke the surface like a spectacular rocket, a highly irregular (and dangerous) surfacing. She had some damages in MBT 3 and we had not had a deep testdive since then, which caused some excitement.
Tore
« Last Edit: 13 Jun , 2019, 14:08 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4006 on: 13 Jun , 2019, 15:13 »

Wow! That is the kind of experience that makes for a great story after the fact but not at the time. Just like out of a Hollywood movie. Not a pleasant experience at the time I'm sure. Thank you for sharing that with us.


Do those ducts just curve downward between the frames and then abruptly end at a certain point? I see now in some of the drawings and some photos of U-995 how the duct goes across the top and turns downwards but you cannot tell how or where it ends.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4007 on: 14 Jun , 2019, 00:46 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I remember where U-926 had some MBT3 damage issues and that was the reason she was left for the Norwegians because she was deemed unfit for sea duty. Could that have been the cause of the MBT3 damage to U-926 where the diesel air main external valve under the tower failed to shut? Otherwise, I believe they could have sabotaged U-926 by blowing MBT3 and running at depth with the dive planes down until the Kingstons were shut, and then rising. That would damage MBT3 and make U-926 unfit for the enemy to use after the war ended...

I know, I have a devious mind...

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 14 Jun , 2019, 00:47 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4008 on: 14 Jun , 2019, 01:57 »
Don.
You are correct in you memory about U-926 avoiding operation searchlight. I guess the investigation revealed that possibly the germans had blown MBT with shut Kingstons. At the end of the war it was difficult to get skilled submarine crew and opening and shutting of the Kingstons was not a daily event as you had to use special cranks. It could have happen by accident during moving the submarine. If I remember correctly the testpressure of MBT 3 was only 30 m H2O. I have also heard that she probably had open Kingstons during an allied air attack on the submarine pen in Bergen. Anyhow she did a firstclass service as a NATO submarine in the 50ties.

Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4009 on: 14 Jun , 2019, 02:02 »
Katuna.
I guess the tapered steelplate lips for the engine bedplate ends towards the frames where they are fixed by welding.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4010 on: 14 Jun , 2019, 02:11 »
To all your guys following my thread, I shall leave for my farm in remote wilderness with bad internet connections hence my activity shall be reduced for a couple of days. Back on monday.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4011 on: 14 Jun , 2019, 03:07 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Be very careful with the drive to the farm... NO repeats of last year!


I have remarked the drawing... Does it look OK.


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4012 on: 14 Jun , 2019, 03:24 »
Don.
My son in law is driving hopefully we arrive safely and no repeat of last year. I shall revert with further comments over the week end. Is Simon around or is he still chasing the snow?, I guess he did a lot of research before making the drawing. Back on monday.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4013 on: 15 Jun , 2019, 10:12 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Katuna,


It's Winter season down under in New Zealand, so I guess Simon is busy at work studying avalanches and working on his advanced degree!


Good discussion... This subject was not covered before in such great detail. It looks like the air induction box is extended on both sides with sheet metal plating and screwed to frames 25 and 26 (My best guess). That way in rough seas where water enters the diesel air intake stack below the bridge, it will be dumped into the Bilge to the drain structures previously discussed.


I believe the Diesel engine running aspirated or supercharged will draw the air from the air induction plenum. Does this sound about right?


Drawings attached,


Regards,
Don_   
« Last Edit: 15 Jun , 2019, 10:19 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4014 on: 15 Jun , 2019, 11:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Looking at one of Simon's drawings makes the drainage and engine block support look entirely different. The lighter structure seems to attach to the frames and the engine block to form the support for the Diesel engine room.  Also, I believe the dark area between the frames to the right is indicating the frames where the air induction plenum is located above. What do you think?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 15 Jun , 2019, 11:29 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4015 on: 15 Jun , 2019, 14:06 »
Don.


I guess it would make it easier not to combine the bedplate structure and the diesel airshaft, they really don`t relate to each other as the diesel  air shaft ends far away from the diesel engine air intakes. The combustion air of the diesel is either normal aspirated or supercharged. When the engine is in normal aspirated air mode, air is drawn in via a rotary inletvalve into an airmanifold alongside the engine, from this manifold are separate ducts to the inletvalves on each cylinderhead. When the engines are running supercharged you clutch in the Roots blower, at the same time you rotates shut the aspirated air manifold inlet valves, as the roots blower discharge is directly connected to the aspirated air inlet manifold, the manifold is now becoming supercharged airmanifold.  As all the air inlets are far away from the outlet of the dieselair shaft the drain of the shaft do not interfere.
Tore
« Last Edit: 16 Jun , 2019, 02:36 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4016 on: 15 Jun , 2019, 14:28 »
Don

The topplate for the mainengine bedplate is a very thick steelplate on which the main engine bedplate is bolted and adjusted by shims. The plate is drawn on the image below and outside the landing area of the engine bedplate, bent down and welded to the pressurehullstructure (frames) for a very rigid connection to the pressurehull. The ligth blue-greenish coloured area are open surfaces and the light grey area the topplate extended down to the pressurehull frames.
Tore
« Last Edit: 16 Jun , 2019, 02:40 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4017 on: 16 Jun , 2019, 21:31 »
Hello Mr. Tore and all,


I updated Skizzenbuch pages 239 (images), 240 (text and images), 350 (image) and 351 (images). I placed the latest version of Skizzenbuch in Dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4018 on: 18 Jun , 2019, 12:17 »
Tore - I noticed these baskets in the Engine Room and another in the Control Room. Were these original to the boat or added post-war?
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4019 on: 18 Jun , 2019, 13:41 »

Katuna.
These were indeed "baskets" for storage which we used for spares and tools. I guess during the WW2 they were used for, provisions as well it was seldom needed  for foodstorage in my time.
Tore

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4020 on: 18 Jun , 2019, 13:47 »
Ok, that was my guess. I just wasn't sure if those were wartime or post. Thanks!
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4021 on: 18 Jun , 2019, 15:13 »
Here's another one for you; Is this the clutch actuating arm? I was looking at a build on another site and noticed this mechanism. If not the clutch arm, then...?
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4022 on: 18 Jun , 2019, 16:08 »
Hello Katuna,


Skizzenbuch page 267 brackets above valves in the control room...
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4023 on: 18 Jun , 2019, 16:17 »
Hello Katuna,


Main Clutch hydraulics in Skizzenbuch on page 425...
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4024 on: 19 Jun , 2019, 01:02 »
Katuna


I guess the Trumpeter kit has missed a few details with regards to the main clutch. The clutch arm is over dimensioned and the lowerpart is cut off. The system is pneumatic-hydraulic operation of a lever connected on the top to a piston having adjustable pistonrod with two guides having end stoppers, the lever is double and split around the propellershaft having a carrierring connected to the operating link on the clutch. As the main lever is moved by the pneumatic-hydraulic system it moves the carrierring and hence the operating link on the clutch. As the system shall not function unless there is a fulcrum at the lower end of the lever you have to extend the pneumatic-hydraulic operated lever down and fit a fulcrum on the bulkhead aft on the dirtyoil tank to get it correct. Don has posted a sketch showing the system.
Tore
« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2019, 01:58 by tore »

Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4025 on: 19 Jun , 2019, 04:07 »
So much fantastic information in the Schizzenbuch from many years of your hard work.
Any idea when we can all get to see it? thanks.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4026 on: 19 Jun , 2019, 11:06 »
Hello Raymic1,


I have applied for a US Copyright back in December of 2018. According to the US Library of Congress, this process takes a maximum of nine (9) months. Once I get the US Copyright, then I will update the PDF file and make "Skizzenbuch: U-Boat Type VII C Project" available from several U-Boat websites at no cost. I will post the website list when the process is completed...


Skizzenbuch consists of 516 pages in a 11 x 17 inch format (Required so the original mechanical and electrical schematics are viewable).


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 19 Jun , 2019, 20:36 by Don Prince »
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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4027 on: 19 Jun , 2019, 15:43 »

It's Winter season down under in New Zealand, so I guess Simon is busy at work studying avalanches and working on his advanced degree!


My winter work almost started as soon as I got back from my trip from visiting U-505 and U-995. Now into my three year of full-time work and research into snow and avalanches. I found it hard to do the same amount of U-boat research I did when I only worked for 6 months of the year. And I am planning to be busy for the next few years with a new laser scanner we purchase this summer at work. With this laser scanner we can scan the snow surface up to 6 km away, to 15 mm precisely, 300,000 times per minute. Would have love it while visiting U-995  ;D
 
I am still going through all the data and photos I collected while at U-995 and slowly improving the accurate of my model. I am hoping to make so big improvement to the casting and pressure hull this coming summer.
 
I never confirm the actual layout of the bedplate, but I believe the bedplate surface was a different bit of steel plate, with the bedplate supports angle down at 25 degs to the pressure hull.

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4028 on: 22 Jun , 2019, 13:25 »

Don - Thanks for the confirmation on the Refrig. Comp/Cond unit. I've been trying to nail that one down for quite some time!


Tore - And thanks to you for the clutch info. I had never seen that actuator arm before and wasn't quite sure that what I was looking at on the other modeler post. Definitely a needed detail in the foreground of the model.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4029 on: 28 Jun , 2019, 15:57 »
Tore - Can you translate these telegraph labels. I'm going through several pages of data on U-Historia and translating several pages of info but my Google Translate Can't seem to figure most of this one out. No doubt the abbreviated words are tripping it up. Thanks.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4030 on: 28 Jun , 2019, 19:45 »
FYI
U-Historia has a fantastic German Uboat glossary with abbreviations and slang.
Might be helpful but I'm sure Mr Tore will know these well.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4031 on: 28 Jun , 2019, 23:26 »
Hello Forum Moderator...


When I enter a word with an Umlaut the letted is not displayed and everything after it is gone? I can preview it OK???


Regards,
Don
i.e. = Zur
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4032 on: 29 Jun , 2019, 00:06 »
Tore - Can you translate these telegraph labels. I'm going through several pages of data on U-Historia and translating several pages of info but my Google Translate Can't seem to figure most of this one out. No doubt the abbreviated words are tripping it up. Thanks.


There are several execution of the engineroom telegraph. This is one of the most common. When it says both engines 10less it means 10 less revs.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4033 on: 29 Jun , 2019, 04:01 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


"Beide Maschinen 10 Weniger" - Does that apply to both Diesel and E-Motor? The word Maschinen seems to indicate E-Motor and not Diesel...


Was Emergency Speed (2 x AK) Diesels and E-Motors 480 rpm, 4/5 speed (2 x GF) Diesel 460 rpm, and 3/5 speed (2 x HF) Diesel 390 rpm audible orders only?


Were there many reasons for the reverse higher speeds when surfaced or submerged?




Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4034 on: 29 Jun , 2019, 08:40 »
The word "Maschinen" perfectly fits for the Diesel engines too.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4035 on: 29 Jun , 2019, 09:27 »
Don.
The engine telegraph is an old fashion way of controlling the engine output and the wording of the orders transmitted bears evidence of that. The old marine language both in English and German did not distinguish between diesel, electric motor and steam engine, hence maschine or engine was used for the main engines in both languages generally.  In the submarine language we did make a difference between diesel and e-motor. The output and rpm (often called wrongly speed) relation of a dieselengine is following a graph put up at the testbed where the engine is connected to a waterbrake which follows the propellerlaw. The engineroom crew following the engine telegraph orders follows approximatly such a graph by adjusting the HP fuelpumps injection volume in relation to the rpm. Today this is done automatically by the governor.
Beide Maschine 10 weniger, I guess this means the propellers, regardless the powers source.

There could be situations that you would need as much power ( bollard pull) astern as possible when submerged, like sitting on the seabed and getting stuck in the clay, getting entangled in some object like u-boat net etc. In the days before schnorchel you would of course use the E-motors. On the surface likewise due to grounding, ice etc. you would need bollard pull rather than speed, anyhow the dieselengines have to give max.output or the max bollard pull, not speed.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4036 on: 29 Jun , 2019, 14:05 »
Hello Mr. Tore and All,


Thanks for the info about the telegraph gauge... I updated Skizzenbuck pages 416 and 417 to include this info and the new version is in dropbox. I asked the US Copyright office about Skizzenbuch and that have assigned an expeditor to the project and I am looking forward to receive the certificate very soon. It has been almost 7 months since I electronically applied for the copyright. They state on their Website that the electronic expected time period is 4 to 7 months for an application completion. I can make minor revisions or corrections without the need for a new application...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 29 Jun , 2019, 16:19 by Don Prince »
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Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4037 on: 29 Jun , 2019, 16:46 »
U995 Floor Covering


Mr Tore
Apologies if this has been asked before but it is quite difficult to find previous threads still with pictures that work.


The U995 modern day museum shows just metal tread plate flooring in most rooms.
As that must have been quite loud with men walking and running  (Soanar hazard) I'm trying to determine if during WW2 they would have had some sort of acoustic rubber matting etc?


I have seen some WW2 pictures of the crew lifting rubber matting up to access tread plate hatches (CO area Ammo store) on some Uboats but it doesn't seem to be a consistent use of rubber matting across all pictures.


Your thoughts?
Was a rubber matting covering on U995 post war but removed to be a Museum?


thanks
Raymic

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4038 on: 30 Jun , 2019, 02:11 »
Raymic.

Unfortuately the Laboe U 995`s flooring  is renewed to fit the visitors safety and wear. Below are a few floor plating images from my time. Basicly in the crews quarter the flooring was linoleum plates duly secured and brownish in colour. In the controlroom, E-room and dieselroom, steelplates. As far as I remember we had some fibermats in the areas near the tower ladder and the access hatches in the two spherical bulkheads at each end of the controlroom. These mats were put in these spots more for the internal noise. In the engine room we used fibermats for maintenance works to prevent damage to the parts dismantled or fitted. When the order silent running was given, we some times took of shoes, stopped non essential noisy machinery etc. In general in the daily sailing when the diesels were running we didn`t care about the noise only when the order silent running was given.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4039 on: 30 Jun , 2019, 04:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Were the tables in the forward torpedo room the only tables with the wing nuts to secure the tables? They had to remove the tables in order to get to the torpedoes stored below deck. Also, where did they store the tables when accessing the torpedoes below deck?


Regards,
Don_
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4040 on: 30 Jun , 2019, 04:13 »
Don.
As far as I remember, yes, and you are right about the torpedostorage I guess the tables were stored towards the pressurehull, I don`t remember for sure..
Tore
« Last Edit: 30 Jun , 2019, 04:15 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4041 on: 02 Jul , 2019, 22:00 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Were the tables with the wing nuts photo taken from U-995 of U-926 when you were the EO?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 02 Jul , 2019, 22:50 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4042 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 00:22 »
Don.
I don`t think they were, down below I have superimposed the tables on Falos present days forw. torpedoroom image of U 995 at Laboe.
Tore
Hello Mr. Tore,


Were the tables with the wing nuts photo taken from U-995 of U-926 when you were the EO?


Regards,
Don_

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4043 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 00:35 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Is this photo real or a doctored image? What U-Boat?

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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4044 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 00:57 »
Don.
Sorry I photoshopped the tables into Falos image from the museum U 995. I have no image of the wingnut from KNM Kaura ex U 996.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4045 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 01:14 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Can you post the image of the tables?
Don_
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4046 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 01:31 »
Don. I `m not sure which image you mean, down below is Falos image of the tables on U-995 today and a separate one from an unknown VIIC.
Tore
« Last Edit: 03 Jul , 2019, 23:11 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4047 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 14:52 »
Hello Mr. Tore and All,


I have updated Page 297 with info about the tables in the Torpedo room, and changed a photo on page 225 because it was incorrect. The updated Skizzenbuch PDF has been uploaded into Dropbox.


Regards,
Don_
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4048 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 14:56 »

Don - I'm unfamiliar with Dropbox. How can we partake?

Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4049 on: 03 Jul , 2019, 20:43 »
Hello Katuna,


I have open links for people that have helped me create "Skizzenbuch: U-Boat Type VII C Project" which is a book in an 11 x 17 inch format with well over 536 pages of text and images. It includes the Original German WWII U-Boat mechanical and electrical schematics with our attempt to provide a readable textual explanation in detail. I have applied for a US Copyright under my name and those that have contributed to the book and I believe I will get the certificate sometime this month. Once the copyright is approved, then I will make Skizzenbuch available to all at no cost through several websites...


Regards,
Don_
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Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4050 on: 04 Jul , 2019, 14:19 »
Cant wait!!! Thanks Don, Tore et all.......

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4051 on: 05 Jul , 2019, 16:16 »

Tore - Care to have a go at a translation of this Battery Switch data plate? Google can't figure it out. I think it has something to do with foreign voltage but I can't decipher it.


Thanks!
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4052 on: 05 Jul , 2019, 20:23 »
Hello Katuna,


My best guess:


When charging the battery in series from an external circuit where + pole Port and - pole Starboard on the main switchboard (together) design/connection.


Battery main-switch 1


Regards,
Don_
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4053 on: 06 Jul , 2019, 01:34 »
Katuna.
As you probably know the two battery groups are separated in two compartments no 1 battery right in front of the engineroom and no2 fore of the controlroom. These two battery groups can be coupled to the main switchboard by the automatic circuitbreaker ( overload current 5000 amps. in 6 seconds ) where the batteri groups can be switched either in series or parallel depending upon the voltage required. In case of charging the batteries in serie from another source but your own, like a shore installation and /or ship you switch your own batteries as the this warningplate says. I guess Dons translation is not bad and my native tongue is not German, but I guess the text reads word by word : In case of charging the batteries in serie from a strange current circuit you should switch together the plus pole port and minus pole stb at the main switchboard.
On the plate below: As Don says
Battery main switch 1

Tore
« Last Edit: 06 Jul , 2019, 10:22 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4054 on: 06 Jul , 2019, 02:07 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Katuna,


That last post makes a lot of sense now...  The batteries in parallel would allow a high current charge to happen while the U-Boat was in port. When out at sea and high current charge of 1660 amps with the battery in parallel (E-motor Armatures always parallel when charging) and driven by a Diesel engine at high speed with the prop un-clutched. Then at 830/415 amps, the battery in serial and driven by a Diesel at the appropriate lower speeds.

My internet translator and my German - English Dictionary just ain't as good at Mr. Tore's experience...

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 06 Jul , 2019, 02:29 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4055 on: 06 Jul , 2019, 02:50 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Overload current of 5000 amps for 6 seconds - It looks like the only thing that could cause that much current would an e-motor or a switchboard short. I would think that if any of the electric motors for the pumps would catch fire and burn up and not cause that circuit to disconnect? Also, I believe that the pumps and motors wiring goes to internal power panels which are fused? Have you ever seen these breakers pop open?


Regards,
Don_


 
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4056 on: 06 Jul , 2019, 08:50 »

Yikes! Six seconds is an eternity at a dead short or locked rotor amps. That'll get those windings glowing.


I don't recall if I've asked before but, does anyone have any photos or drawings of the Automatic Battery Switch? Even a schematic would be great. Other than a photo of the cabinet door I can't find anything. I could probably come up with a reasonable looking bit of switchgear but it would sure be nice to have a rough idea what it looked like. Did you ever see inside there Tore?
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4057 on: 06 Jul , 2019, 08:54 »
Almost forgot, thanks Tore and Don. That translation makes much more sense than what I was getting. I think my Google Translate started the weekend a little early.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4058 on: 06 Jul , 2019, 15:27 »
Hello Katuna,


Pages 406 and 407 in Skizzenbuch; I explain how it all works. The automatic battery switch does not look to be complicated. I have attached the rotary schematic.


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 06 Jul , 2019, 15:50 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4059 on: 07 Jul , 2019, 01:29 »
Don
Very good I was just looking through my files and realised my drawings were of such quality not worth posting. Anyhow I am posting a bad copy of battery switch no1 situated just opposite the galley. We very seldom had trouble with the switch, as Don says it is fairly simple. 5000amps for 6 sec. seems to be a lot, but the switch is for protection of the battery, the triggerpoint for a massive shortcircuit is 13000 amps. Other electric components had local protection by fuses connected to the starters.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4060 on: 09 Jul , 2019, 04:48 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I spent the last 3 days studying the welding machine schematic on Page 415... I believe I discovered the keys to the kingdom and now I think that I understand how it works. I have uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into Dropbox. Would you please take a look at page 415 and let me know what you think?


Did you ever use the port e-motor as a welding machine on U-995 or U-926 as the EO?


Regards,
Don_
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4061 on: 09 Jul , 2019, 13:39 »
Don.
Sorry we never used the port E-motor as a welding machine on any of our VIICs.
Tore

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4062 on: 11 Jul , 2019, 08:13 »

Thanks for the battery info guys. I you stumble across any photos or drawings please post them. I've tried looking for relays and mag starters from that time period but have come up empty. I've worked with a lot of older electrical equipment (not that old though) so I have a good idea of what the layout of components would be but any additional info would be great.


Tore - Do you know if the components were mounted on a rack of some type or were the mounted to a plate at the back of the cabinet? I guess it doesn't make much difference if no one knows what it looks like in there anyway but, right is right.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4063 on: 11 Jul , 2019, 08:34 »
Katuna.
The components were usually mounted on a rack.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4064 on: 11 Jul , 2019, 12:44 »
Katuna,


I previously posted the switchboard schematic to drive the E-motors... Here is the layout from u-historia.com and a Skizzenbuch photo.


Regards,
Don_
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4065 on: 11 Jul , 2019, 14:12 »
Maybe I've been looking at this all wrong. Are the Automatic Battery Switches, located in the Galley and next to the Capt. bunk, simply a circuit breaker or is it the switch gear to shunt series/parallel? I'm looking at the schematic Don put up. I presume the switch he highlighted in blue is what is in the cabinet or is it everything to the right of the green line? I'm a bit thick headed most of the time so I'm a little slow to catch on. It was my belief that the gear to switch from series to parallel was in there but now looking at the schematic, I'm thinking that took place in the Main switchboard.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4066 on: 12 Jul , 2019, 00:25 »
Hello Katuna,


The batteries are located below the deck as indicated in the u-historia.com drawing and the battery breakers are located as indicated above deck in the Officers' Wardroom and the galley. The circuit breakers just connect the batteries to the E-room.


The port switchboard circuit is drawn in the schematic on the left side of the green line, and the starboard switchboard is not draw in on the right side just to keep things simple, but it would be very similar. The battery parallel/serial switches are on both the port and starboard switchboards as drawn.


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 12 Jul , 2019, 00:39 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4067 on: 12 Jul , 2019, 00:28 »
Katuna

The Automatic battery switch is a two pole simple automatic circuit switch between the batteries and the main switch boards. when switched on, the automatic battery switch in the galley is connected to the stb. main switchboard in the E-room, and the automatic battery switch next to the CO cabin is connected to the port main switch board in the E- room. The automatic batteryswitches are locally placed protecting circuit switches for the batteries. As battery parallel/ serie switching is a part of the the propulsion control, the switches are placed in the operation control part of the swichboard. 
Tore

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4068 on: 12 Jul , 2019, 07:53 »

I've got it now. Somewhere I had read that the ABS cabinet held the series/parallel switchgear. This makes thing much more simple.


Once again, thanks.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4069 on: 13 Jul , 2019, 02:49 »
Hello Katuna,

After reviewing my documentation... I realize I have posted and then deleted a post in an abundance of caution. However, I believe I have got it right this time.

The older "Lever Type Switchboard" U-Boat power distribution schematic shows battery room #2 powering the main port switchboard in the switchboard rack and auxiliary switchboard 1 and auxiliary switchboard 1a in the e-room/aft torpedo room. While battery Room #1 provides power to the main starboard switchboard on the switchboard rack, and to auxiliary switchboard 2 in the control room. This circuit drawing is the first attachment.

The newer "Rotary Type Switchboard" has the exact same functionality, except auxiliary switchboard 1a is powered by auxiliary switchboard 1 or auxiliary switchboard 2. This circuit drawing is the second attachment

Note both the automatic circuit breaker and the disconnecting fuse must be shut for battery room powering functionality.

My personal comments:

Both disconnecting fuses sample the voltage at the transfer switches to the auxiliary switchboards 1 and 2. If there is a short circuit, then through the transfer switches one disconnecting fuse will see B- while B+ is on the battery side. This short circuit will cause the disconnecting fuse to trip the circuit breaker for that battery room.

Does my explanation make any sense?

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 13 Jul , 2019, 03:04 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4070 on: 13 Jul , 2019, 04:06 »
Hello Mr. Tore and All,


If you think about it, the disconnecting fuse makes a lot of sense. Instead of having a huge circuit breaker that can handle and sense nearly 2,000 amps in order to trip may not be the most reliable disconnect. However, the sampling circuit with the disconnecting fuse would have very little current and is only looking for a differential in voltage (with a 6 second time delay) to trip its battery room circuit breaker.


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 13 Jul , 2019, 04:09 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4071 on: 13 Jul , 2019, 04:47 »
Hello Mr Tore,


This discussion brings up an interesting point...


If one battery room is out of service, I assume they could run both switchboards on one battery room (Just put the battery in parallel). However, there would be limitations when running both switchboard in this instance; the e-motors armatures must be in series to limit the current drain on the operational battery room. Otherwise, there would be twice the normal current drain on the one operational battery room if all of the armatures (4) were in parallel...


Does this make sense?


Regards,
Don_
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Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4072 on: 13 Jul , 2019, 15:46 »
Just following this with interest.
This may not be relevant but just reading in U Boat War by Buchhiem


"In order to increase pressure on the hydroplanes, the E-motors are switched to high speed.
At low speed, the batteries are switched to run together"




Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4073 on: 13 Jul , 2019, 19:11 »
Hello Raymic1,


In this case:

1. High speed would be battery serial (220 VDC unregulated) and the e-motor armatures in parallel (least resistance and higher current flow).
2. Low speed would be battery parallel (110 VDC unregulated) and the e-motor armatures in series (greatest resistance and lower current flow).


The term "switched together" is not technical enough and must be defined? As together in battery in parallel, or as together in battery in series. It looks like he meant Parallel for low speed...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 13 Jul , 2019, 19:14 by Don Prince »
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4074 on: 16 Jul , 2019, 07:49 »
Then would the fuse and the circuit breaker both be in that ABS cabinet? Those are great schematics.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4075 on: 16 Jul , 2019, 21:58 »
Hello Katuna,


Yes, I believe that the automatic circuit breaker and the disconnecting fuse are both in the same small cabinets in the Officers' Wardroom and the Galley. Unfortunately, I do not have any photos of them. If someone visits U-995 perhaps a photo could be captured of both installations...


The images below on the main switchboard switch for the Type IX U-Boat shows some smaller wiring besides the main buss bars for the heavy battery current. The documentation that I have for the Type VII C U-Boat (my translation) indicate that the wiring near the main switchboard switch is for the switchboard battery amp meter (with two switchable ranges) and a voltage meter.


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 19 Jul , 2019, 14:36 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4076 on: 17 Jul , 2019, 08:58 »
I'm an AC voltage guy by trade so DC voltage often times frightens and confuses me. However, looking at the schematics, I would think that the DF leg is more of a control voltage. If there is an issue with the motor, such as a cooling problem or clutch issues and amperage is running high, then the DF would blow, disconnecting the main power (supplied from the CB) at the switchboard. If there is a direct short or grounded winding in the motor or supply power, the CB would trip. By definition a circuit breaker is an amperage device. If the DF directly affected the CB, then the CB would actually be a relay or magnetic contactor that is directly commanded by another source.


I'm unfamiliar with 1940's German/European schematics so I'm not totally sure of the symbol used for the CB in Don's schematic. It appears to me to be a switch but it has a couple extra bits to it. In the section below from Tore, it looks like either a manual disconnect or magnetic contactor with overloads located on the load side of that switch.


From a modeling standpoint, I guess this is all moot but it is fun to try and decipher how all this worked. Would sure love to see inside one of those cabinets. Don, your last picture is about what I was expecting the components to look like. 
« Last Edit: 17 Jul , 2019, 09:00 by Katuna »
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4077 on: 17 Jul , 2019, 17:13 »
Hello Katuna,
This is my translation of a document which I will email to Mr. Tore  for his comments...

Accumulator system
Page 10 and 11
Safety equipment.
1. To protect against overloading of the batteries, a battery self-closing switch is installed between the battery and the main circuit board with the following tripping option.
a) Over-current triggering adjustable for overcurrent from 3000 - 7500 A and for a delay time up to 10 sec, normal Set for 5000 A and 6 sec.
b) Short circuit triggering adjustable for 11000 - 22000 A, normally set for 13000 A, triggers without delay.
For further information see Description and Operating instructions, main switchgear and auxiliary switchboards.
« Last Edit: 17 Jul , 2019, 17:17 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4078 on: 19 Jul , 2019, 11:53 »
Ok, time for a new topic. Mr. Tore, I remember seeing a photo somewhere of the engines and on the "purge" valves (next to the injectors), they had small catch can, presumably tin cans from the galley. I would assume this would have been to catch any oil/fuel/water that would have been blown out while cleaning the cylinders out. Do you ever remember seeing anything like that? Thought that would be a nice detail to add to my engine.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4079 on: 19 Jul , 2019, 14:37 »
Hello All,


I have modified my 16 July posting....


Don_
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4080 on: 19 Jul , 2019, 15:05 »

I looked a little closer at the switch photo and noticed the fuses on the bottom right. Those are still used today. Those look, physically anyway, to be about the size of a 2000A fuse.


I'm curious, is that a handle in the center to close the switch? Good thing the operator is protected by the lightning bolt labels. Metal handle around all that electrical? No thanks. I give electrical a lot of respect when working around it. If it is a disconnect handle, you'd think they would at least put a wood or bakelite hand grab on it.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4081 on: 20 Jul , 2019, 16:02 »
Hello Katuna,


The circuit diagram of the main switchboard and batteries for the Type IX U-Boat (diagram attached) clearly shows the additional fused circuits.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4082 on: 23 Jul , 2019, 02:39 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


When surfacing Q Tank is being flooded...  Air is going from Q Tank through the muffler internal to the pressure hull. Is there a means to determine when Q Tank is fully flooded other than water at the muffler?  I must have forgot something during our discussion years ago...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 24 Jul , 2019, 01:31 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4083 on: 02 Aug , 2019, 19:51 »
Hello Mr. Tore and All...


Skizzenbuch: U-Boat Type VII C Project


Copyright (C) Donald M. Prince, Tore Berg-Nielsen,
Maciek Florek, Simon J. Morris, and Mark Hessburg

Published and distributed in the United States of America by
Kristallklar Publishing, LLC

Library of Congress Registration No. TXu002150468
Service Request No. 1-7130055519
Effective Date of Registration: December 4, 2018                                 

First Release Date: August 15, 2019
(with minor corrections)


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 03 Aug , 2019, 21:08 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4084 on: 03 Aug , 2019, 15:21 »
Can't wait! Counting the days.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4085 on: 03 Aug , 2019, 20:08 »
Awesome. 2 weeks to go....

Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4086 on: 04 Aug , 2019, 05:30 »
Hello Raymic1,


In this case:

1. High speed would be battery serial (220 VDC unregulated) and the e-motor armatures in parallel (least resistance and higher current flow).
2. Low speed would be battery parallel (110 VDC unregulated) and the e-motor armatures in series (greatest resistance and lower current flow).


The term "switched together" is not technical enough and must be defined? As together in battery in parallel, or as together in battery in series. It looks like he meant Parallel for low speed...


Regards,
Don_




Quite a nice easy explanation here from below.
Using the motor - series-parallel - switch and battery - parallel-serial - switch three drive speed ranges corresponding three voltage ranges can be set (see E Sketchbook)
1.Batteries in parallel, armatures in series
2.Batteries in parallel, armatures in parallel
3.Batteries in series, armatures in parallel
[/t]
Within these three ranges, further adjustments can be done by changing the current in shunt windings using the double motor field rheostat.

U-boat Information

for

U-boat Type VIIC

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4087 on: 13 Aug , 2019, 08:26 »

Tore - Have a question on the valve wheels that are sticking up from between the rocker arms on the engines. It looks as if they go to the fuel pipe from the injector. In the photos below I have identified what looks like one of the valves and stem on the cylinder farthest forward (my arrow should be a little to the left). I assume this would be to shut off fuel flow to the cylinder if needed. I just need to verify if that is where those small handwheels go to.


As always, thank you.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4088 on: 14 Aug , 2019, 00:25 »
Hello Hatuna,


Earlier. I looked in the wrong place on my notes... I believe this valve is the Vent/Drain Fuel Valve... However, it's best to wait for an official answer from Mr. Tore...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 14 Aug , 2019, 02:01 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4089 on: 14 Aug , 2019, 08:14 »
Don - I believe Trumpeter had originally planned on adding a handle and just forgot. If you look at the photo you can see the stems sticking up. I'm sure that's where the handle is supposed to go.


Like you said, best to wait for the man in the know to weigh in.


I wish I could find more of Simon's engine drawings. I have a few plan views and pieces of the side views. They're immensely helpful.

Now that I look at the detail drawing you posted, it looks as if Trumpeter mis-designed the fuel line thinking that was where the valve/handle was at and didn't make a handle. Who knows with Trumpeter. Design by committee.
« Last Edit: 14 Aug , 2019, 08:18 by Katuna »
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4090 on: 14 Aug , 2019, 19:48 »
Hello Katuna,


There is a missing link in the model...  See my photo...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 14 Aug , 2019, 20:09 by Don Prince »
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Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4091 on: 14 Aug , 2019, 23:05 »
FYI
As there seem to be no photos of either battery conditioning rooms the latest Game U Boat has this modelled as their interpretation.
Anyone know exactly what the electrical gear looked like inside?
Thanks

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4092 on: 15 Aug , 2019, 00:34 »
Hello Raymic1,


I only have one photo of the battery room where the crewman is laying on a trolly and checking the battery acid...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 15 Aug , 2019, 00:36 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4093 on: 15 Aug , 2019, 01:15 »
If you are referring to the battery buss connections in the e-room to the Switchboard control panel; I only have somewhat of a view for the Type IX Switchboard... I assume there would be shielded copper cables going to the Switchboard connection bars.

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 15 Aug , 2019, 01:22 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4094 on: 15 Aug , 2019, 01:59 »
This is a Type IX C photo and the title is "Battery room of a Type IX C-Boat under construction"....
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4095 on: 15 Aug , 2019, 08:18 »

I think we beat this one to death awhile back. Tore chimed in too. There just aren't any photos or drawings of the cabinet components. Scroll back a page or two and there are a couple schematics and one partial pic of a magnetic switch. It's as good as you're going to get.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4096 on: 16 Aug , 2019, 16:43 »
Is it time yet, Don? Just realized today is the 16th.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4097 on: 17 Aug , 2019, 19:50 »
Hello Katuna,


I sent a link of the final US Copyrighted version of Skizzenbuch to four (4) Websites on the 14th of August, and they are working on a means for distribution... Since the file size is 715 MB, this does present a problem and they are looking for a solution.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4098 on: 19 Aug , 2019, 19:49 »
Hi Don
Thank you for you Tore et all for putting this together over the years.
It will be fantastic to read.


Are you able to share who the 4 sites are and any idea if any of them have sorted this as yet?
Thanks 8)

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4099 on: 19 Aug , 2019, 23:02 »
Hello Raymic1,

Try this:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9is1eocx7qilq4o/AAC6v4TufyFyAcsV8yH08s_-a?dl=1

Copy the link into your browse and hit return, and the skizzenbuch.zip file will be downloaded

Then click on the ZIP file and then select the PDF and the Folder to be unzipped into your designated folder.

Let me know if this works....

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 19 Aug , 2019, 23:26 by Don Prince »
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Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4100 on: 19 Aug , 2019, 23:35 »
Hi Don
This has worked perfectly.
Fantastic . I have a lot of reading to do.


thanks
Raymic ( Mike)




Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4101 on: 19 Aug , 2019, 23:46 »
Hi Again Don
I've had a quick preview and you guys have done a fantastic job. This will be an awesome resource for the U-boat community.
Fantastic that this knowledge has been passed on for future generations of enthusiasts and historians.
Well done. Much appreciated.
cheers
Raymic ( Mike)'


Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4102 on: 20 Aug , 2019, 01:10 »
Hello All,


Just in case you were worried... Mr. Tore and his wife are on a vacation at their farm and he has limited internet (Slow) access. They are celebrating his wife's 90th Birthday. Somehow, at 78; I feel old and tired at times... There must be something in the water in Norway for people to have such good health and longevity!


Kind regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4103 on: 20 Aug , 2019, 15:07 »
Hello All,


The websites are:
1. This AMP website
2. Jerry Mason's www.uboatarchive.net
3. The Subcommittee www.subcommittee.com
4. And possibly www.u-historia.com


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4104 on: 21 Aug , 2019, 09:36 »

Don - What a wonderful piece of literature. There are some very interesting bits of information in there. I just gave it a quick glance front to back but I'm looking forward to sitting down the weekend and reading through as much as I can digest in one sitting. You have done a masterful job. A huge thanks to you and all of those who assisted.


I would love to see this in print. I'm old fashioned. I like having a book in my hand. I will say, however that it is nice for my aging eyes to be able to zoom in on a photo rather than squint at it.


PS  - Glad to hear Tore is on vacation.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4105 on: 21 Aug , 2019, 13:07 »
Hello Katuna,


Skizzenbuch is protected to not permit changes to be made, but I did not protect it from being printed. I know most PDF protection can easily be hacked and that is the reason for the copyright. I took Skizzenbuch and had a previous version printed at a print shop on card stock paper and that cost over $200. I since trashed the printed copy because I have made many corrections and additions. I plan on printing it again in a 11 x 17 format on glossy card stock 80 pound paper. I have a leather bound metal post binder (the main reason for the 1.75 inside seam), so the book will be about 2.5 inches thick with the Wallet Folder in the back of the book. The card stock, printing, and the post binder total cost is about $500.


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 22 Aug , 2019, 03:20 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4106 on: 21 Aug , 2019, 16:02 »

Yikes! Well, computer version it is then. Let's see, if I print 10 pages a week at work, it'll only take me a year to print it out. Yeah, that works for me!


I'm sure there will be people that would love the leather bound copy. It's a great assembly of highly detailed information.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4107 on: 07 Sep , 2019, 03:45 »
Hello All,

It looks like Skizzenbuch has been available on the Subcommittee website for about a week under "The U-boat Pen" forum and has had quite a few downloads.

Thanks to Wink Grise and Dougie Martindale Skizzenbuch is now available on the AMP website in the section book/submarines/Uboats:

https://amp.rokket.biz/lib_uboats.shtml

I will provide other updated when they become available...

Regards,
Don_




« Last Edit: 08 Sep , 2019, 00:00 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline maillemaker

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4108 on: 12 Sep , 2019, 09:01 »
I have just thumbed through the book. Holy cow!  An amazing work.
Whatever happened to the fellow in this thread who was making a 3D model of a uboat?
Hope all is well with Mr. Tore these days.  I have not been back here in a while.

Steve

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4109 on: 14 Sep , 2019, 18:34 »
Hello Mr. Tore, Simon, and Mark...
You all will have mail in a few days.
Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4110 on: 23 Sep , 2019, 17:25 »
Hello Mr. Tore, Simon, and Mark,


I got the packages for Mr. Tore and Mark back from the USPS and had to re-send them today. I have no idea if Simon's package was sent on to New Zealand or was lost by the USPS. We'll find out in a week or so...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4111 on: 02 Oct , 2019, 01:45 »
Hi Don and everybody.
I am finally back after my vacation and a lot of other events. First of all Don, thanks for the DVD which I got in the mail today, the box was slight broken, but I guess the disc is OK. As I have no DVD input on my PC I have mobilized my grandchildren to help me with the hardware, looking forward to seeing the final result.

I the meantime I found a few images from KNM Kaura ex U 995 up at my summerfarm they might have some interest beeing shot in 1953 above the polar circle in northern Norway and actually in the area where U-995 did her WW2 patrol watching the convoys to Murmansk.
I have a few more never been published if any interest.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Oct , 2019, 01:47 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4112 on: 02 Oct , 2019, 02:26 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

The previous page and my response to Raymic1 which has a link that does an auto download from Dropbox which contains the final released and copyrighted version of Skizzenbuch and the folder that contains 10 huge prints. I will repost the link...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9is1eocx7qilq4o/AAC6v4TufyFyAcsV8yH08s_-a?dl=1

The CD is about 99% full with the PDF and the Wallet Folder.

Any new unpublished photos are always desired...

Regards,
Don_

PS: the Skizzenbuch link on the www.subcommittee.com website at "The U-Boat Pen" looks to have had over 160 downloads to date...
« Last Edit: 02 Oct , 2019, 02:45 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4113 on: 02 Oct , 2019, 05:26 »
Don and all
In september 1953 we did a schnorchel testrun Bergen Norway,- Fareoe Islands - Bergen, 17 days submerged, a pretty long time in those days. Here is an image of the officers on the bridge I`m in the centre returning to Bergen. The other image is returning to the submarine pen in Trondheim a bit later same year. My private photos not published before.
Tore
« Last Edit: 03 Oct , 2019, 13:30 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4114 on: 02 Oct , 2019, 08:25 »
Those pictures are brilliant! Would love to see any of your photos.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4115 on: 02 Oct , 2019, 10:39 »
Katuna.
Something happened to my last post, it seems everything disappeared. The front of the U-995 engines seems to cause some trouble. As from 1943 the idea was to get rid of some extra weight particularly on the VIIC/41 due to the increased diving depth keeping the same enginepower a few weight reductions were carried out on on the submarine. On the GW engines this involved removing the direct reversing mechanism including the double camshaft and the huge reversing cylinder on the top of the engine up front. The submarine was manoeuvred by the e-motors in an easy way, saving a lot of HP air. On some engines like the U-995 you`ll still find some rudiment parts like the reversing handle etc. Below I have tried to identify the various items at the front of the engine.
Tore
« Last Edit: 04 Oct , 2019, 01:06 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4116 on: 02 Oct , 2019, 13:49 »
Well, I'm glad I asked you before I scratch built one. Thank you for the photo with the identifiers.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4117 on: 03 Oct , 2019, 00:33 »
A few more old images KNM Kaura ex U 995   1953-54

Offline Raymic1

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4118 on: 03 Oct , 2019, 05:49 »
Wonderful photos Mr Tore. Thanks for sharing.
Is that your Captain on the Attack periscope in photo 11?

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4119 on: 03 Oct , 2019, 05:57 »

Raymic
Indeed he was one of the pioneers of our VIICs and a good friend of mine.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4120 on: 03 Oct , 2019, 11:12 »
A few more private photos from KNM Kaura 1953-1954
« Last Edit: 03 Oct , 2019, 11:18 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4121 on: 04 Oct , 2019, 03:14 »

Just for fun, here is an image showing Hans Georg Hess the last CO of U 995 visiting the U 995 museum a few years back and the first CO of KNM Kaura ex U 995  Nils Tiltnes in 1954.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4122 on: 05 Oct , 2019, 03:08 »

A  photo from KNM Kaura showing the helmsman while running surfaced on diesel watching the removable gyro repeater.


Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4123 on: 07 Oct , 2019, 01:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I'm now back to looking at the Type IX C and C40 U-Boats... Unfortunately, I don't have Maciek for guidance anymore. I'm looking at the rudder control and I understand some of the electrical schematic. I'm not certain about the "Self Starter" device. It looks to be a driven set of cams which may change the switch contacts after movement has started.

Do you know someone that I may communicate with to get a precise understanding of this circuit?

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 07 Oct , 2019, 01:47 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4124 on: 07 Oct , 2019, 02:40 »
Don.
 As so many of my crew have passed away including my 1. electrician who for sure would have been able to answer, I am sorry not being able to help you. I was never involved in this stuff.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4125 on: 08 Oct , 2019, 01:01 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I have been able to figure out some of the circuitry on my own after several hours of study...

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 10 Oct , 2019, 02:40 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4126 on: 08 Oct , 2019, 03:18 »
I have been briefly looking at the large scale models of trumpeter modelkit and am impressed about the ambitions rather than the results of the kit maker, it is however impressive what some of the modelbuilders have achieved. My memories goes back to the days we were crawling under the floorplates trying to figure out  how things worked without any drawings or manuals in the first years. The way some of your guys are able to model the piping system is awesome. On order to have a correct system it helps to know how it works and below is an image of the lubeoil system up front of the port engine of U 995 having a non reversible GW engine without lubeoil purifier (sentrifuge) .
The system works as follows: Each engine has a dry oilsump with 5 drainages to a common drain pipe leading to a double valve cage being able to select port or stb system tank. The attached gearpump up front is able to operate in two turningdirection (a complicated rudiment from a direct reversible engine) takes suction via a suction valve from the relevant systemtank to the suction side of the pump, before entering the pump is a smaller branch pipe with valve to the discharge pipe and from the discharge of the pump is a small pipe with reliefvalve to the engine drain pipes.  The dischargepipe has a thermometer and then a NR valve before entering a valvecage having connections to port filter and cooler, stb luboilsystem and the emergency lube oilsystem. The cooler has on the top a venting pipe with cock, the ventpipe ends in the common main drain pipe of the engine.  The cleaned and cooled lubeoil leaves the cooler via a three way cock enabling connection to port engine, stb. engine or bypass. After this cock is a branch of pipe ( full pressure) to the governor servo motor (aft of the engine) which has a drain to the common drainage pipe. The main lubeoil pipe now passes very visible the front of the main engine where a pressure reduction valve is situated reducing the oil pressure from 3kg/cm2 to 1,5 kg/cm2. Then a thermometer (in mainengine) before branch off to the various components of the engine like main bearings, register drive, turbocharger etc.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 Oct , 2019, 01:17 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4127 on: 08 Oct , 2019, 07:34 »
Don.
I recall we discussed the turning of the VIIC main diesel, I guess in connection with the Skizzenbuch, at that time I couldn`t remember exactly where you engaged the turning bar on the engine. I just discovered an image showing the item as shown below. The manual turning of the main engine was always necessary during maintenance and adjustment, furthermore we always turned the engine manually with open indicator cocks in the event of water intrusion to prevent waterstroke. As you shall see from the image the turning bar system was identical to the main clutch and engaged a "disc" just before the dieselclutch. 

Offline maillemaker

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4128 on: 08 Oct , 2019, 11:00 »
Hello Mr. Tore,
The pictures are fascinating.  I love seeing them.
Were the stanchions/handrails on deck added post-war?  Did they stay on when submerging?
Thanks,Steve

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4129 on: 08 Oct , 2019, 11:13 »

Tore - You are absolutely right about knowing what the components are, how they work in conjunction with each other and how the piping and electrical is laid out in regards to modelling. While Trumpeter did an admirable job of creating a cutaway model, they left an enormous amount of detail out. Those of us that have an inner masochist have decided to twist the knot a little tighter everyday by trying to convincingly recreate as much of the intricate detail as possible.


I grumble about not having a certain drawing covering the specific area I'm working on at any given time. I can't image how you actually operated without any manuals. When men were men.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4130 on: 08 Oct , 2019, 11:45 »
Hello Mr. Tore,
The pictures are fascinating.  I love seeing them.
Were the stanchions/handrails on deck added post-war?  Did they stay on when submerging?
Thanks,Steve

Steve, the stanchions and railing were originals, surfaced and submerged, however they were easy removable. For war patrols, and exercises they were removed as they were ratling quite a bit submerged.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 Oct , 2019, 00:04 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4131 on: 09 Oct , 2019, 19:25 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I believe I figured out how the Rudder motor drive circuit works, and here are the other 2 options for the circuit...

Also, the exact same electrical devices were in the Type VII U-Boats. However, the Type VII electrical diagrams only showed small boxes and not the internal details. In fact, the Type VII electrical schematic did not even identify what the boxes were... Go Figure!

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 09 Oct , 2019, 21:34 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4132 on: 10 Oct , 2019, 02:38 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Manually cranking the diesel engine: I figure at most only 3 cylinders would be flooded because the exhaust valves would have to be open to allow water to enter (Some stage of the exhaust stroke). If the engine were manually cranked, then some water would exit the exhaust valves into the exhaust pipe and could be drained into the bilge (besides the exhaust test valves)? Does my drawing look anywhere close to being correct?

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4133 on: 10 Oct , 2019, 11:07 »
Don.
Your drawing of the turning device is excellent.

I guess the flooding normally is due to leakage of the outboard main exhaustvalve just before the silencer. The valve has a rotating valve disk driven by a pneumatic motor grinding the carbon deposit from the valve seats. This was carried out at regular intervalls running surfaced and as a routine during the diving procedure, the grinding was stopped when the sea pressure became too excessive. Sometimes (not often)this grinding when diving was incomplete due to lack of time and a substantial leakage could occur. When the leakage exceeded the internal draining capacity, flooding happened and water intruded the hull main exhaust valve casing, this valve is susceptible to carbonizing as well and leakage leading to flooding of the exhaust manifold alongside the engine. The manifold has a considerable drainage capacity hence the flooding was very short, but I guess in that short time all the exhaustvalve ducts in the cylindercover were filled and could not be drained by the exhaustmanifold drain. Hence some water was trapped in the cylinderhead exhaustducts. When turning the engine by hand you opened the  exhaust valves and drained this water into the cylinders. In order to get rid of the water could either blow it out by starting air through the indicator cocks running the risk of turning the engine uncontrolled by air with a possible risk of waterstroke or by cranking bar sqeezing the water out through the indicatorcocks by the piston.

Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Oct , 2019, 07:39 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4134 on: 12 Oct , 2019, 22:02 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I actually had a photo of the diesel engine manual cranking dogs, but I missed then right in front of me nose...

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4135 on: 13 Oct , 2019, 03:01 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

After reviewing my Uboataces DVD I believe I found one of the Self-Starters for the Rudder or the Hydroplane control circuit in the Aft Torpedo Room. What do you think?

Regards,
Don_
 
« Last Edit: 13 Oct , 2019, 03:06 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4136 on: 13 Oct , 2019, 03:29 »

Don.
I am a bit rusty on this item, but I guess it is OK.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4137 on: 15 Oct , 2019, 01:30 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Does my comments make any sense about the Hydroplane control circuits?

This hydroplane drive system schematic for the Type IX U-Boat look very similar to the lower half of the Type VII schematic. However, the difference is the Type IX actually had the emergency steering unit. The extra BBC unit was mounted on a pedestal directly behind the hydroplane operators in the U-Boat control room. Notice the bow torpedo room self-starter box has a heater circuit and the stern/aft self-started box does not have one. However, the stern/aft self-starter box does have serial resistance (Ns Vorwiderst) added to the hydroplane motor shunt circuit which could act as a heater, and the current flow is decreased in the aft hydroplane shunt coil; more power for the aft hydroplane motor? For example, the U-Boat is running forward and coming to the surface at a horizontal position; the bow hydroplanes up angle determines the rising angle and the aft hydroplanes down lift the back of the U-boat to keep it level (This circuit may only apply to Type IX U-Boats). In addition, the hydroplane motor circuit has a series resistor for the purpose of displaying the Amps drawn.

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4138 on: 15 Oct , 2019, 02:21 »
Don.
The title of your book is Skizzenbuch: U- boat type VIIC Project, hence I guess it is correct to make it very clear to the readers when you introduce a IXC topic in a VIIC publication to prevent confusion and misunderstanding. Allthough there are many components of the same design in the two submarines types, they are different and mixing the two in your book might lead to confusion to the layman.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4139 on: 15 Oct , 2019, 14:50 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

My questions:
1. Coming from depth to 20 meters - Would the captain bring the U-Boat up at a forward angle up, or the U-Boat up while positioned horizontally/level? I would think at a forward angle up for expediency.
2. Going to periscope depth from 20 meters - The captain would want the U-Boat level when going to periscope depth because he would not want a bow up angle.
3. At periscope depth - Take on some water ballast and make the U-Boat heavy, and use the forward and aft hydroplanes up position and maintain a horizontally level U-Boat at depth with a low periscope exposure.
4. Speed at periscope depth - I would think a higher submerged speed would provide the captain with greater control of the periscope depth exposure.

Regards,
Don_

I agree with you; I do not want to introduce U-Boat Type IX data into Skizzenbuch for the Type VII U-Boat. Since the Type VII U-Boat electrical circuit data is not detailed, then perhaps some of the more detailed Type IX electrical information applies to both U-Boats. If the above questions applies to both U-Boat types, then perhaps the electrical designs apply to both U-Boats as well? Fortunate for me, you are a very rare resource over 90 years old with actual Type VII U-Boat experience. I'm no spring chicken at 78 years old either. My area of expertise was electro mechanical equipment and the electronics (tube and solid state) of the past generation. I may ask questions beyond your area of expertise or responsibilities as the EO of Kaura, but there is no one else left to ask... Congratulations!!!
« Last Edit: 15 Oct , 2019, 15:38 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4140 on: 16 Oct , 2019, 00:25 »
Don.

It is difficult to make a general rule for changing depth, it all depends on circumstances and the COs skill and experience. Generally being submerged you change your position dynamically eg. using hydroplanes and speed which means moderate bow up going up and bow down going down. To compensate for changes in water density and hull compression you use the regulating tanks and for crew movement you use the trimtanks. If the CO want to go to periscope depth you usually go dynamically to see if you are able to hold the boat there, depending on the surface condition like waves etc. I have experienced swell down to 50 meter. Surfacing you take the boat up dynamically and carry out a periscope sweep before blowing the main ballast tanks having the bow slightly up towards the wind and waves. When breaking the surface the boat has a low stability and you want to avoid the weather hitting you atwartship. But every COs has his liking based on his experience. The image below shows not how you should do it.
Tore
« Last Edit: 16 Oct , 2019, 00:27 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4141 on: 17 Oct , 2019, 13:42 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

It's amazing how your brain recovers after a few good nights sleep... Now it's quite obvious to me that the additional hydroplane motor current for the aft/stern hydroplane is common for both the Type VII and the Type IX U-Boats. In order for the stern/aft hydroplane motor to overcome the prop wash pressure, the motor drive circuit for the stern/aft hydroplane requires the additional motor drive current.

What do you think?

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 17 Oct , 2019, 20:59 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4142 on: 18 Oct , 2019, 23:59 »
Don.
Sounds reasonable to me. But as mentioned before I am a bit rusty on this topic. In the meantime I have been looking at some old drawings previously mentioned and I found some VIIC el schemes which I am trying to restore, not very successful though. I am posting a couple showing part of the scheme for the rudder, aft and fore-hydroplanes. As all the drawings are in a mess and the blueprints of bad quality I am not sure it is of any help to you. I might be able to restore some more ( take some time) if you think they would be helpful.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4143 on: 19 Oct , 2019, 02:07 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Your original Schematic shows a little more of the wiring, but not all and the circuit items remain a empty box like the Type VII schematics which I have... See attachment.

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4144 on: 19 Oct , 2019, 02:26 »

Don.
 Just what I expected, the schemes are from Blohm and Voss a german shipyard building VIICs .
Tore 

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4145 on: 29 Oct , 2019, 16:49 »
Hello Mr. Tore and All,


It looks like the link to download Skizzenbuch on the SubCommittee.com forum/The U-Boat Pen website has just exceeded 300...


Regards,
Don_
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Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4146 on: 30 Nov , 2019, 10:21 »

Its been far too quiet around here lately so I have a question for Mr. Tore.


I came across this photo on another site and found it quite interesting, to say the least. My question, however is, what is the round hatch that's open just aft of the engine room? Of course I have no idea if this is a Type VII or IX boat. I looked at Simon's plan view of his boat and I didn't see any hatch between the exhaust. It's too far forward and too high to be the aft torpedo loading hatch or am I mistaken?
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4147 on: 30 Nov , 2019, 15:11 »
Katuna.
The engine hanging in the air seems to be a 6 cyl. direct reversible Krupp Germaniawerft engine as installed in the VIIc`s up to 1942. The Roots supercharger is removed and you see the outboards side of the engine with the combustionair manifold. There are not too many detailed images of the outboard side of this engine. I don`t fully understand your question on the circular hatch aft of the engine room, but the the large circular pipe in front of the engineroom is the flange of the large dieselair shaft coming from the dieselair intake valve operated from the controlroom. This shaft enters the engineroom just above the maneuvring places in the front of the engineroom where it is split in two ducts ending above the bilge at the outboard shipside port and starboard away from the combustion airinlet of the airmanifold to prevent seawater intrusion in the airmanifold..
Tore
« Last Edit: 30 Nov , 2019, 15:13 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4148 on: 30 Nov , 2019, 15:37 »
The round hatch I have circled in red. It is indeed rare to see any photo of the outboard side of the engines.

Could you possibly post that drawing by Simon by itself? I've never seen that one before and it would be most helpful at the stage I'm at with my model. I tried enlarging the pic you posted but it comes out much too blurry.

As always, thank you for your wisdom.
« Last Edit: 30 Nov , 2019, 15:41 by Katuna »
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4149 on: 30 Nov , 2019, 16:24 »
Hello Katuna,

Perhaps these drawing by Simon J. Morris will answer your question. The upper pressure hull rivets were removed from the upper pressure hull plates above the diesel engine room to provide the huge opening as seen in the photo.  I was discussing this with Simon back in January...


The hatch circled in red is the aft torpedo loading hatch (Last Drawing)....

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 30 Nov , 2019, 21:05 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4150 on: 01 Dec , 2019, 02:52 »
The round hatch I have circled in red. It is indeed rare to see any photo of the outboard side of the engines.

Could you possibly post that drawing by Simon by itself? I've never seen that one before and it would be most helpful at the stage I'm at with my model. I tried enlarging the pic you posted but it comes out much too blurry.

As always, thank you for your wisdom.
Katuna

Don got your question right and Simons images shows clearly the aft torpedo loading design. I might add that the angle of the loadingtrunk makes locally a considable weaking of the pressure hull as frames 15,16 and 17 are cut making the oval opening in the pressure hull. As can be seen from my image below if you disregard the modern lights and wiring, this is compensated by putting removable strengthening beams across the oval hull opening. The beams have a clearance of appr 20 mm at the contact points and being submerged the compression of the pressurehull elimitate this clearance. The solution is common to most submarines from the VIIC vintage.
Tore


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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4151 on: 01 Dec , 2019, 15:47 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

We had discussed the frames in Skizzenbuch with reference to the torpedo Tube loading hatch. However, we never touched on the subject of replacing a diesel engine and the disposition of the diesel room frames. The attached photo shows the upper frame missing while workers are in the diesel engine room. From this vantage point, it looks like these frames were cut into sections, but we never discussed the joining method for these frames.

Update: I found a photo on my U995 DVD that shows where the frames upper section in the diesel room overlap and are riveted together. See second image below...

Regards,
Don_

PS - I noticed that the ModelShipWorld.com (Where Katuna's photo was posted) used Skizzenbuch's colorized Plate 13 of the G. W. Diesel Engine drawing...
« Last Edit: 01 Dec , 2019, 18:56 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4152 on: 02 Dec , 2019, 00:47 »
Don.

The large engineroom opening for mounting the mainengines was as you know shut by a large riveted plate strengthened by riveted frames as can be seen from Falos photo below. The frames above the engine have supports for removable round bars above each cylinder. These bars were used as fixing point for winches for maintenance work like lifting cylindercover, cylinderliner, piston and pistonrod etc. You would need every inch above the cramped place to lift the parts from the engine. The riveted  plate was only removed in case of a major dammage to the cylinder block, crankshaft or bedplate.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Dec , 2019, 09:37 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4153 on: 02 Dec , 2019, 03:43 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thanks for the info, I will add that to the Addendum Booklet. Is that person's name Falo or Falos as in your response...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4154 on: 02 Dec , 2019, 04:50 »
Don.
Falo is a member of this group, you`ll find him in the members list, he has kindly allowed me to use his photos taken during his visit to U 995 at Laboe.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Dec , 2019, 04:55 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4155 on: 03 Dec , 2019, 08:49 »

As to the hatch, it makes sense that it is the torpedo loading hatch now. It just seemed to me that it was located lower in the hull and wouldn't have been that visible when open. My mistake.


Tore, that overhead photo of the lifting bars is very interesting. Never realized that how they would rig the top end of the motor apart. Another question, where exactly were the engine spares carried? I know I had seen a photo somewhere (U-534 perhaps?) of a piston and a rod (?) that were stowed on the decking plates of the engine compartment. Would the area on top of the waste oil tank between the engines be used for storing spares crates? I would imagine, especially during the war, that spares would be crammed everywhere there was a cm to spare.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4156 on: 04 Dec , 2019, 00:30 »

Katuna, storage space for major engineparts was hard to find. I guess we found different places and volumes depending upon the mission of the sub. We usually operated along the long coastline of Norway and carried minimum of spareparts as we could get same by plane anytime. However when we took over our VIICs we found major large parts fixed to the pressurehull between the engines and the pressurehull as indicated on my image below. On U 995 I particulary remember a "barrel" containing a piston, the "barrel" was filled with conservation oil and fixed to the pressurehull in the engine room. For some reason I had to check this piston and opened the barrel putting my hand down to the piston. I was newly married and my weddingring slipped off the finger and disappeared down in the oil. Of course a disaster and with helping hands from my engineroom crew we were able to retrieve the ring at the bottom of the barrel after substansial work. Otherwise we got parts by plane fairly easy from our large storage ( called the Fox garden) in the submarine pen at Trondheim. Consumable parts like fuelinjectors, exhaustvalves etc were of course kept onboard. Otherwise you`ll find empty storage bins made by steel straps throughout the U 995 often used for hoses etc.
Tore
« Last Edit: 04 Dec , 2019, 04:26 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4157 on: 04 Dec , 2019, 10:18 »
I had noticed on U-995 that there are racks located on the pressure hull behind and slightly above each engine. I wondered if these were original or from its time in Norway. When you say "barrel", do you mean like a wooden barrel/keg or a metal canister? I love modeling little details like this but I want to get it correct. In the photo below, I'm assuming those are the stowage racks?
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4158 on: 04 Dec , 2019, 10:43 »
Katuna, I can`t remember exactly, but I guess the pistoncontainer was made of steelplate and the lid secured by a steelring over a fold on the top. Barrel is a wrong word in this case. As to the stowage racks/bins I assume they were originals.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4159 on: 04 Dec , 2019, 23:39 »
Hello Mr Tore,


The photo below shows the lubricating oil pump and housing with 12 lubricating lines to other locations on the GW Diesel engine where the oil pump just didn't provide the needed supply of lubrication oil. I see where there is an eye sight glass for viewing the housing's oil level. Was there an internal float level valve to assure an adequate Lubricating oil level?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 05 Dec , 2019, 00:05 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4160 on: 05 Dec , 2019, 01:00 »
Don.

The device on your image is called a lubricator which supply a calibrated oil droplet to various items on the engine. The system is common to most  large marine diesels. The device consist of a housing containing luboil ,the level is shown by a sight glass at the container.The working principle is that a camshaft is mechanical driven via a ratchet this camshaft operate several plunger pumps taking suction from the luboilcontainer inside the housing. Each plungerpump supply an adjustable droplet to the its lubrication point, this droplet is discharged to a waterfilled sightglass enabling you to check the supply. from the individual sightglasses is a small pipe leading to each individual lubrication point.  Below is an image showing a pipe to the exhaustvalve stem in the exhaustvalve casing.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4161 on: 05 Dec , 2019, 02:18 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

"this droplet is discharged to a water filled sight glass enabling you to check the supply. From the individual sight glass is a small pipe leading to each individual lubricating point."

The sentence - "this droplet is discharged to a water filled sight glass enabling you to check the supply." How does this work?

It sounds like you are mixing oil and water?
See the image below... I found this on the internet, but I don't really understand what I'm looking at?

I assume you are seeing something inside the lubricator through the two rectangular windows in the front of the lubricator.  What is the purpose of the elongated window on the side of the lubricator?

Regards,
Don_
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4162 on: 05 Dec , 2019, 04:15 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I found this on the internet... I don't fully understand it, so perhaps you can help???


Don_
« Last Edit: 05 Dec , 2019, 04:20 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4163 on: 05 Dec , 2019, 07:14 »

Don you have many systems to handle the distribution and counterpressure for lubricator as  your page for handling the steamcounterpressure for lubricators of the steamengines. You have similar system for cylinder lubrication of largebore marine diesels, however I guess the lubricator for the GW engine is a bit simpler. I never dismantled the GW lubricator and unfortunately I have no image of the lubricator as installed on the GW engine,  but I guess it works as follows: The plunger pump takes its oil from the oil oilchamber in the pumpcasing (the oillevel can be checked by the level glass in the lubricator casing) and discharge to the discharge sight glass filled with water kept in the glass by  springloaded inlet and dischargevalves. In the sightglass a certain volume of the  oil is permanently collected at the top of the sightglass due to a lesser specific weight of the oil than the water. As the oil is forced by the plunger in to the sight glass  it displaces the same volume of the oil on the top and this oilvolume is discharged through the discharge NR valve to the lubeoilpipe connecting the lubrication point. The sight glass checks the working of the lubrication and the volume discharged to the lubrication point, (permanent volume of the oil on top.)
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Dec , 2019, 07:23 by tore »

Offline Katuna

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4164 on: 05 Dec , 2019, 08:33 »

If I understand correctly, the sightglass on the forward end of the lubricator (the vertical glass) shows the level available in the lubricator reservoir itself. The feed to each oil pipe comes from the individual sightglasses located on the front (behind the two horizontal windows) and these glasses have water in them to a predetermined level. The oil floats on top of this and, as the feed to each lubrication point is increased or decreased, that level indication in the glass moves up or down.


I defer to the honorable Mr. Tore however as I'm taking a semi-educated guess.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4165 on: 05 Dec , 2019, 16:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Katuna,

Question 1: What is the cylinder number for the cylinder closes to the maneuvering panel???
Question 2: The 12 hex head screws on lubricator, are they just for holding/attaching the lubrication lines???
Question 3: Where are the needle screw/valves to adjust the drop size to the sight glass located???

The last two posts look to be spot on as far as to how the "Lubricator" actually worked.

Another thought - the oil level in the sight glass tube would remain at a constant level because as the diesel engine speed increases or decreased, then the rocker arm drive would increase or decrease the number of oil drops provided to the sight glass tube and in turn provide more or less oil to the cylinder chamber through the non-return valve. The adjustment of the feed needle valve will increase or decrease the volume of the oil drop which results in more or less oil forced from the upper oil area of the sight glass and through the non-return valve providing more or less oil to the cylinder chamber. So, again the oil level at the top of the sight glass would remain at a constant level???

Perhaps the only way to change the oil level in the sight glass is to decrease the internal water level and the sight glass internal pressure will still be maintained (don't want to change the oil feed pressure). And another thought - why not just fill the sight glass with oil; that would still work for lubricating the cylinder chamber. However, Having water in the sight glass you can see the oil drop rising which is a visual verification that the Lubricator is working!

I have been doing some reading about marine Diesel engines on the internet. When the Diesel fuel oil ignites in the cylinder chamber sulfuric acid is created which will corrode the pistons, piston rings, cylinder sleeves, valves and valve seats, etc. The lubricator has 12 lubrication lines which go to the 6 cylinders on the GW Diesel engine (2 per cylinder). The cylinder lubrication oil has a special property (addictive) which neutralizes the sulphuric acid to counter the corrosion effect after ignition. If you look closely at the lubricator there is a large filler cap on the top. I believe when the oil level gets to be low, then it's the responsibility of the Diesel engine operator to refill the lubricator. This could be a normal scheduled maintenance procedure after a normal 4 hour shift.

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 05 Dec , 2019, 21:45 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4166 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 02:20 »
Don and Katuna. I am afraid my post and assumption was not 100% clear and even uncorrect on some wordings. I guess it should be possible to find some details on the lubricator as the firm making the lubricators still exist. I guess the name is Gruetzner GMBH in Germany may be someone are able to retrieve some documents from the net. In spite of an old construction it might be some drawings exist. As to the lubrication points on the GW engine I can`t remember any cylinder lubrication, in fact as the GW engine is a trunk engine where you normally have a tendency to draw to much luboil up in the combustion chamber getting a too high luboil consumtion, hence the trunkengines have piston oilscraper rings scraping oil down to the sump. As far as my fragile memory goes the point lubrication were on the valve stems in the cylinder head, see my image below. In addition I am showing the filling lid on the lubricator which is manually topped up.
Tore
« Last Edit: 06 Dec , 2019, 02:26 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4167 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 04:09 »
'Gruetzner GmbH has been a specialist in automatic lubrication systems since 1993. We find the optimal solution for your lubrication points. You save time, costs and increase the longevity of your machines. '

Your images - I could see one line going to the exhaust valve and one line going to the cylinder???

Could not have been them...
Don_
« Last Edit: 06 Dec , 2019, 04:14 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4168 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 04:42 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Here is where I was getting some info on Marine Diesel engine lubrication...
https://www.marineinsight.com/tech/ships-main-engine-lubrication-system-explained/

They have some great videos!
Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4169 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 06:14 »
Don.

I had a quick look at the videos of the marine diesel, as far as I can see the videos are dealing with two stroke large bore marine diesels running on  heavy fuel, which often contains sulphur and in some cases residues from the fuelcracking and need special treatment. The GW engine is a four stroke medium speed trunk engine running on dieselfuel usually have a higher quality than heavy fuel , and mostly don`t require a cylinder lubrication as the piston and cylinderliner is in direct contact with the crankcase and system oil. A crosshead engine has a fixed pistonrod above the crankcase sealed from the crankcase by a packingbox around the pistonrod. After the packingbox is a conrod having a upperbearing in the crosshead and a lower (big end bearing on the crankshaft) in the crankcase.  This system usually requires a cylinderlubrication. The reason for having a crosshead is that you have a separate guide (crossheadshoe on a sliding face) which takes up the large sideforces in a special sliding component having a separate lubrication system.
Tore
« Last Edit: 06 Dec , 2019, 06:22 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4170 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 09:40 »
That's very interesting. I never realized they used a crosshead like that. Just like a steam locomotive only vertical.
Modeling U-371 on 16.10.43 at 1800 off of the Algerian coast in CJ7722.

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4171 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 16:15 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I think your original description was correct about how the Lubricator functioned. I think the lubricator used the lubrication oil onboard (Clean Oil); the reason for the lubricator having it's own source of oil was because they didn't want to use the engine circulated Lube oil source because it was dirty and picked up impurities and carbon. They didn't want to dirty up and plug the Lubricators flow lines and journals. There is also the possibility that the U-Boat Lube Oil was of a higher quality with some additives to counter any sulfuric acid created during combustion. After all, the U-Boat was an advanced piece of machinery which was vital to Germany's war effort.

I'm still doing some internet research on Diesel engine lubricators...

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4172 on: 06 Dec , 2019, 21:28 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


The Japanese still make the Lubricator... www.yasec.co.jp


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4173 on: 07 Dec , 2019, 00:35 »
Don, I don`t think the GW engine requires a special luboil to compensate for the sulphurecontent in the diesel fuel. The major problem for a submarine luboil is water emulsion. As we have discussed before a submarine diesel is susceptible to waterintrusion contaminating the lubeoil. In some cases the luboil gets emulsified which ruins the lubrication properties of the oil, hence you want to have a lubeoil with additives that counteracts emulsion, this is in contradiction to the old time steam engine where we were squirting water on the crosshead guides to make luboil emulsion. On KNM Kaura ex U-995 I experienced twice a ruin of the luboil due to emulsion caused by water intrusion, in spite of separate lubeoil systems, the operation is costly.
Tore
« Last Edit: 07 Dec , 2019, 00:43 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4174 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 01:09 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

When surfacing from a dive:
1.  Use HP air to blow the cylinders with the test cocks open to assure no water?
2.  If water is seen, then you would manually crank the engine with the test cocks open to clear the water form the cylinders, or would HP air do the job alone?
3.  Manually crank the engine with the test cocks open to clear the water from the cylinders, If the CO will not permit the increased hull pressure.

Basically would the use of HP air or manually cranking be the standard starting procedure?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 08 Dec , 2019, 03:08 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4175 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 03:58 »
Don.


HP air (205 kg/cm2 as stored in the hp air flasks) is a vital important medium to a submarine, topping up same is noisy and takes time, hence you try to save the HP air as much as possible. Surfacing happens under many different situations and the procedure varies under the various conditions, like the activity on the surface, the submarines depth, weather and the reason for surfacing. The ideal surfacing is as mentioned before, ascending dynamically by speed and hydroplanes, checking the surface by periscope and then blow your tanks at periscope depth using as little HP air as possible, this takes an experienced man as the air in the ballast tanks expands after you have shut the blowingvalve. The idea is to get the submarine in a stable semi surfaced position, then switch over to exhaust blowing, starting with the ballast tanks highest up ( least backpressure) until you are on the required draft. The exhaust blowing is not commonly used on all submarines. In the RN the final blowing is done with an electrically driven LP air blower but the purpose is the same, saving HP air.
The intrusionof seawater into the engines is not a frequent reason during normal surfacing, the most common reason would be during diving via the outboard main exhaustvalve (before the silencer) having a major leak due to carbon formation on the seatings. As you know the valvedisk on this valve was rotated by a pneumatic drive during diving, this grinding was not always successful as the possible grinding intervall was too short (Beckpressure became to big on the valve) causing a massive leakages into the exhaust manifold on the main engines and the via the exhaustvalves into the cylinder and luboil system .
Tore
« Last Edit: 08 Dec , 2019, 04:21 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4176 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 04:41 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

My question was which method is the normal operating procedure:
1. Manually cranking the diesel engine before startup?
or -
2. Using HP air to blow the cylinders out before startup?

Regards,
Don_ :)
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4177 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 04:49 »
Don.
When you had a massive intrusion of water after a dive we always were careful when starting the engines. Of course the indicator cocks were open, I preferred to turn the engines manually, some times the water was squirting out of the cocks. Blowing by air was risky as you was using the startinghandle to admit air into the cylinders and you could run the risk of turning the engine by air and get a waterstroke as a result. Blowing through was a starting procedure for checking by a skilled man and not when you have a massive waterintrusion. Turning the engine by hand needs no permission from the CO as it does not influence the submarines internal pressure as pneumatic grinding and airturning would do.
Tore
« Last Edit: 08 Dec , 2019, 05:54 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4178 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 05:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank You that was exactly what I was looking for...


I apologize, but another question... If when cranking the engine and you got water from the indicator/test cocks, How did you check the lube oil supply tank or the crank case for water?


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4179 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 05:30 »
Don.
We always checked the lubeoil visually any emulsion would immediately change the colour and  structure of the oil to grey mayonnaise.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4180 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 16:01 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Once, you cleared the cylinders of water, the lube oil in the crank case and the lube oil supply tank would not have emulsified yet because the Diesel engine has not been running to mix the oil and water; any water that passed through the piston rings would be in the bottom of the crank case or the lube oil supply tank?

The crank case on the GW Diesel engine looks to be fairly shallow, so would all of the water settle down to the lube oil supply tank?

Is there a valve or plug at the very bottom where you could drain the crank case or the lube lube oil supply tank before startup because the water would have settled to the bottom of those tanks?

If you did not have time to test the crank case or the lube oil supply tank, then would you switch over to running on other lube oil supply tank. Now, both engines are running on the non-contaminated lube oil supply tank until you have time to inspect the possibly contaminated oil supply tank?

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 08 Dec , 2019, 19:34 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4181 on: 08 Dec , 2019, 20:28 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Also, is Cylinder. #1 next to the Maneuvering panel?

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4182 on: 09 Dec , 2019, 00:59 »
Don, The GW crankcase was never designed to contain lubeoil (dry sump design) hence any contamination would drain into the system tank below the engine no valves except a selection valve case to select which systemtank to take the drain.. Originally the luboil sentrifuge could be connected to either system tanks, cleaning the oil, later a large filter substituted the oilseparator and to a certain extent handle limited amount of water, after a massintrusion of water the filter was not able to handle the contamination and we exchanged the luboil source. You are able to connect the lubeoil suction of one engine to the other systemtank by the emergency electrically driven luboilpump.
We named the cylinder next to the maneuvering stand no 1, I guess the Germans did the opposite.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 Dec , 2019, 01:25 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4183 on: 09 Dec , 2019, 20:57 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Thank you for the info... I sent you an email with one page attached. Would you please look it over and let me know if it looks OK. I'm going to give myself a Christmas present and have the book printed at a local shop to insert into my leather covered metal post binder. The cost for the print job is about $400 plus Georgia state tax (7.75%)...

Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4184 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:21 »
Don you are certainly going to give yourself an expensive xmas gift. I guess I better repeat my previous ( primitive) description of the exhaust system through the pressure hull and  silencer. As you see on the bad sketch below there are a lot of means to prevent waterintrusion via the main exhaust system. Primarily the outer (before the silencer) main exhaust valve (flap valve with a pneumatically driven rotating disc) which very often had a leakage due to carbon deposits on the seatings, this leakage entered the pressurehull to the group exhaustvalve (mechanically rotated flapvalve) with a leakage container before the valve, able to drain the water into the bilge. If further leakages occurred the waterintrusion continued to the exhaust manifold along the engine way below the exhaustvalves in the cylinderheads. The exhaustmanifold had ample drainage to the bilge. Hence a water intrusion via the engine exhaustvalves would only happen if the elaborate system of main exhaustvalves and massive drainage of the main exhaust system failed causing the leakage to rise up to the top of the mainengine and enter the cylindercover exhaust ducts. This did not happened frequently and flooding of the main engines was a rare event. Yet it could happened lets say once or twice a year.

The normal starting procedure is always to "blow trough" as we called it (mainly running the engine by starting air with open indicator cocks without fuel) prior to a normal upstart. Blowing out the waterintrusion by starting air is as mentioned previously  risky.
I am impressed by your stamina on the Skizzenbuch and shall revert with further comments, if any later.
Tore   
« Last Edit: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:24 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4185 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:44 »
Don.
I had some problem with enclosing my bad quality images, here is another  bad sketch of the group exhaustvalve with drainage.

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4186 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:47 »

Hello Mr. Tore,


If the blow through was risky...

The normal starting procedure is always to "blow trough" as we called it (mainly running the engine by starting air with open indicator cocks without fuel) prior to a normal upstart. Blowing out the waterintrusion by starting air is as mentioned previously  risky.



Then would you manually crank the engine? Do I need to correct/change the page that I sent to you?


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4187 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:55 »

Don I guess you should modify some of the wording, I `ll revert a bit later ( have to attend a funeral).
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4188 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 03:01 »
My condolences...
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4189 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 10:55 »
Don. In your paragraph: " during a Dive, you state " If the main group exhaustvalve grindingprocess did not form a perfect seal......  you may say: in the rare event of not having a successful grinding of the group exhaustvalve causing a major waterintusion exceeding the draining capacity of the inboard main exhaustvalve and the engine exhaust manifold to be flooded, water might enter the main engine via the exhaustvalves in the cylinderheads.....
You may of course  use your native language to the express the meaning, but avoid leaving an impression that this was a normal event. Although an unsuccessful grinding was quite common it was very seldom so bad that it resulted flooding the main engine, the internal drainage could usually handle the leakage.
On the same page you state : after a dive you should never start the engine by air.... Normally you always start by air, but before starting after a dive with waterintrusion you should turn the engine manually with open indicatorcocks before a normal starting, which means blowing starting air through the cylinders with open indicator cocks prior to shutting the cocks and run the engine by air before startingfuel is added. Turning the engine by hand for checking/draining the cylinders can be done immediately after a dive which is often done if water intrusion is observed.   It might be a bit complicated, but in many cases you want to be ready for exhaust blowing as soon as you surface and then you are usually preparing the engines for start before surfacing. As you are aware of the CO does not like to increase the internal over pressure so you are careful with using too much air in the starting preparation otherwise  the CO might be ejected through the tower hatch when he enters the bridge.

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4190 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 17:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

After translating the German and Japanese "Lubricator" documents, I have come to the conclusion that this devise only serves one purpose; to lubricate the cylinder sleeve and the piston rings. It has nothing to do with lube oil emulsification or sulfuric acid in the combustion chamber of the Diesel engine. I have attached the diagram from the German lubricator and translated the title;"Central Oil System Grutzner EZ up to 150 Bar with Rocker Arm Drive"... Now, doesn't that look and sound familiar?
<first drawing attached>

The Japanese document discussed the process of adding the ports to the Piston Sleeve...

The parts to be replaced during remodeling work are indicated by. When installing the MPL system, the cylinder liner must be grooved, but construction can be done without removing the piston with a dedicated tool. (B & W. UFC Type)

● Lubrication timing and range_____________________________________________________
<second drawing attached>
MPL has the same mechanism as the conventional mechanical type and achieves "low cost" and "equivalent oiling rate" compared to the electronic control type.

It looks like they inject Lub oil in both sides of the piston sleeve to lubricate the piston rings in contact with the piston sleeve; reducing friction and heat to preserve and prolong the life of the diesel engine.

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 10 Dec , 2019, 17:25 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4191 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 00:32 »
The cylinderlubrication on the GW engines is done by the piston ring arrangement as a trunkpiston engine usually would be susceptible to too much luboil drawn from the crankcase up into the cylinder causing the luboil to take part in the combustion prosess fouling up the engine and increasing the luboil consumption. The piston skirt on a trunk engine is an elongation of the piston for a proper distribution of the sideforces, the cylinderliner lower part of a trunk engine gets in contact with the oilsplash in the crankcase, sticking to the cylinderliner and is drawn up to the combustion chamber. This could lead to building up carbon in the cylinder, hence you rather fit a piston scraper ring than a cylinder lubrication point in the liner.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4192 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 01:07 »
Don I guess your latest addition on the lubricator (cylinder lubrication of the GW engine) could be omitted.

Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4193 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 01:33 »
Hello Mr. Tore,
Then what does the lubricator do?
Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4194 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 03:01 »
Don.

You may say the GW engine is an oldfashioned engine in many ways and the point lubrication was not perfect, you still needed a greaser with an oil can. The " fillingstation" for the oilcan is on the front bulkhead  stb side you`ll find it on the luboilsystem plate. A point lubrication oil tank fills the greasers oilcan manually. The lubricator is an attempt to improve the  manual greaser by leading small pipes to difficult accessible lubrication points. Below are a few images showing what I try to explain. First of all I don`t remember all the lubrication points on the top of the engines, but the rockeram fulcrums are manual lubrication points, and I have included an exhaustvalve cage with a valvestem which needs lubrication, the connection in the cylindercover to the lubricator is assumed by me as the valvecage image is not from a GW engine. On the modern diesels the top with all the valves are covered by a so called dustcover and the oil is splashing all over eleminating the greaser.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4195 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 03:20 »
Don further to my todays post here is the plate showing the greasers " can filling station."
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4196 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 08:21 »
Don I had a quick look at the specification for the  m/y Haida ...you mentioned. the engines are installed in 1929, no mentioning if they are four stroke trunkengines or bore/stroke. However they are mentioning one damage due to a chromium plated cylinderliner, chromium plated cylinderliners use to be for two stroke crosshead engines. The Krupp Germaniawerft made submarine- and yacht diesel engines and the image of the lubricator looks similar to the lubricator on the VIIc type. What make me suspicious as a possible reference for cylinderlubrication need, is the Krupp engine specification, cast iron piston and chromium plated cylinderliner which cannot be compared with the GW engine having light alloy piston and cast iron cylinerliner. Most four stroke trunk dieselengines to day have not cylinder lubrication. I can`t remember any on U 995 but failing memories exsists.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 Dec , 2019, 08:25 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4197 on: 12 Dec , 2019, 05:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


A little research... GM built the US Navy sub engines and I have attached the Piston design. It looks like the cylinder liner is lubricated from the piston. Oil exits the piston crown and is captured below the compression rings and exits at the out the Lub control rings into the oil sump.


Do you have any drawings of the GW engines pistons?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2019, 05:22 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4198 on: 12 Dec , 2019, 05:54 »
Don. your image shows a light alloy trunkpiston with internal coolingribs inside the piston crown. The lubricating oil is forced up in the bore of the piston rod from the mainbearing and is squirting out from the gudgeon pin bearing towards the cooling ribs in the piston crown. This system is a combination of a bearinglubrication and a cooling of the piston by the luboil. The oil is collected in a cooling chamber in contact with the pistoncrown, the coolingchamber have a direct natural free drain down to the crankcase and do not take direct part in the lubrication.  What is interesting however is that the image shows the lower pistonringpacket named as oilcontrol rings with drain borings in the piston skirt. The drain goes from the ringgrove in the pistonskirt  (not on the surface) and down thus do not take part in lubrication of the cylinderliner but leaving the piston inside the pistonskirt wall to the crankcase, this confirms that you rather scrape down the luboil in the lower part of the cylinder liner to control the luboil consumption (preventing to draw the luboil up into the combustion chamber.)
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2019, 10:10 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4199 on: 12 Dec , 2019, 06:40 »
Don.  Below is a cross section of the GW engine, the piston is an uncooled trunkpiston of light alloy. 400 mm dia. As you see from the cross sectiondrawing there are no cylinderlubricating points. On the lower part of the pistonskirt is an oilcontrol ringpacket consisting of scraper rings which control the upward luboilflow by scraping the oil downwards. From the scrapering piston groove there are drain bores going to the internal piston skirt letting the oil to be drained down into the crankcase and systemtanks.
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2019, 10:02 by tore »