Author Topic: Type VIIC/41 by Revell (Read 29429 times)

bracco_n · « **on:** 13 Dec , 2008, 12:25 »

Hello fellows, first I want to introduce me. I'm Nicolas Bracco from argentina and I've just got started in U-boat modelling. I have a Type VIIC 1/144 under my belt and in the near future I'll post pictures from her.
Now I'm planning to build the type VIIC/41, I already have the kit. Could you please tell me all the kits I have to buy to make my model as accurate as it can be?
I appreciate your help

Siara · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Dec , 2008, 13:05 »

Welcome!

Theres wide variety of aftermarket products you can get for your build:
Wooden deck from Nautilus Models
Photo Etch from Eduard, AMP, Modelbrass
Brass turned barrels from Schatton Modelbau
Brass screws from Raboesch
Figures from Warrior, Hecker & Gyros, Andrea
Flags AMP
Original kriegsmarine enamels from WEM
Rigging thread from Modellingtimbers
Decals Ulad, AMP

and so on...

dougie47 · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Dec , 2008, 14:00 »

Hi Bracco,

Welcome to the AMP forum. Siara has outlined most of the sets out there. The Modelbrass set is worth getting. But it might not be available now, and they aren't exactly very good at returning emails.

AMP used to be U-Brass. We did release a PE set for the VIIC and VIIC/41s. This allows you to modify the free-flooding holes and to correct the torpedo door length. It also has pieces for the later styles of exhaust outlets (which you will need for the VIIC/41). The set can be found at -

http://www.rokket.biz/models/modelsweb/rokket/u557/ubrass.shtml

We don't sell the set now. It can be found in the White Ensign Models (WEM) range as 7232. WEM are a reputable company, and good guys too -

http://whiteensignmodels.com/

They also sell Kriegsmarine paints which are very good.

Cheers,

Dougie

bracco_n · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Dec , 2008, 09:22 »

Could any of you provide me with original pictures of Types VIIC/41? I need to see some to get ideas for my future model. I appreciate the help!

dougie47 · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Dec , 2008, 12:34 »

Hi Nicolas,

There aren't as many VIIC/41 photos as there are VIICs. So getting a decent number of VIIC/41 photos will be difficult. Photos of the museum boat U 995 might help -

http://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=2243

Many of the VIIC/41 features were the same as VIICs so you might like to refer to Glenn and Siara's builds.

Cheers,

Dougie

bracco_n · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Dec , 2008, 17:31 »

Do you have pictures of camuflage for artic boats? I would like to represent one of the Type VIIC/41 operating against artic convoys. My other idea is to represent one in late war greys during training in the baltic.
I'm open for other ideas.

dougie47 · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Dec , 2008, 11:53 »

Hi Nicolas,

I can't think of any VIIC/41 photos with camo. Late VIICs with camo, yes, but not VIIC/41s.

By the end of the war dark greys were used as upper colours. They were also more weathered towards the end. So you could go for a dark grey boat.

I like your idea of a training boat. Such a boat would have the yellow band on the tower and deck, plus UAK markings (either white or black) on the tower. You could use Schlickgrau 58 as the upper colour. It would be nice to see U-boat models in darker greys as most have light or medium grey upper colours.

Cheers,

Dougie

Siara · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Dec , 2008, 12:45 »

Heres the training boat by Jess Montomery:
http://homepage.mac.com/jess13/PhotoAlbum59.html

bracco_n · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Dec , 2008, 17:01 »

So, no white or camo painted Type VIICs/41?

dougie47 · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Dec , 2008, 07:22 »

Hi Nicolas,

Photos of late boats with white or camo schemes may well turn up. Does anybody have any?

I wouldn't recommend the camo scheme for U 997 on the box. Nobody has been able to confirm any U-boat had a camo scheme like this. The squiggles are very like the patterns used by the Luftwaffe. Maybe Revell used it on their box art because it looks nice?

There is a VIIC/41 WIP build at -

http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=130766&page=1

Cheers,

Dougie

bracco_n · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Dec , 2008, 19:59 »

Ok, I'll wait untill some picture confirms camo on a type VIIC/41, I want this model to be really accurate. By the way, some time ago I saw a type VIIC/41 cut at the waterline and with a midget submarine aft of the CG. Can't find it know, does anybody has the link?

bracco_n · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Dec , 2008, 09:57 »

Today I was looking at the instructions, precisely at the paint schemes provided by Revell for each specific boats. There are many camouflaged and white-clad Types VIIC/41, I was wondering if this paint schemes have historical background, I mean, if they are the result of historical research.
Another thing is the Schnorkel. In some pictures I've seen, a tube comes out of the side of the conning tower and once the schnorkel is fully raised it connects with this tube. I don't have a picture now but will post it as soon as I find one. So, is Revell's Schnorkel accurate? or is it missing some parts?

Siara · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Dec , 2008, 10:24 »

Bracco_n- best way to compare the accurac of schnorchel in the model is to post the picture of actual part here. I personally havnt seen the atlantic version myself, so can not comment on it. I do have some pictures of the real thing.

dougie47 · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Dec , 2008, 11:19 »

Hi Nicolas,

I haven't got around to getting the Revell VIIC/41 kit yet. I'm still researching for building VIIBs, VIICs and IIAs models! Could you post pics of the snort, as Siara, says, and also the instruction booklet?

Revell's instructions may be historically inaccurate. But I'm very wary of saying this as they may have been advised by someone with decent knowledge of U-boats.

Cheers,

Dougie

bracco_n · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Dec , 2008, 17:22 »

Some pictures of revell's schnorchel with eduard PE parts:

as you can see, there's no pipe going from the mast to Diesel's air intake. I believe that Revell's type VIIC/41 is based on U-995 displayed at Laboe.

As you can see, no pipe. I don't see the use of a schnorchel that is not connected to the Diesels, in fact it isn't connected to nothing. Now check this pictures from U-530 and U-858:

and now check this link in detail:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-889SchnorkelPhotos.htm

As you can see, there's a pipe running from the wintergarten to the schnorchel, and the schnorchel mast has a device to connect it with the pipe. this are absent in Revell's model and in U-995.
Should I scartch build the pipe? I haven't seen any boat with the schnorchel on the port side and the antenna fitting that this model has, I believe that the model is wrong.
I would like to hear your comments.

dougie47 · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 07:06 »

Hi Nicolas,

Type IXs and Xs had snorts on the starboard side of the deck. VIICs had snorts on the port side of the deck.

Some VIICs had the snort with the pipe leading to the rear of the tower. As the snort was on the port side, this pipe was located along the port side of the tower.

Other VIICs with had different snorts that did not have the pipe, just like U 995.

I'd recommend the book Vom original zum Modell: Uboottyp VII C by Fritz Koehl and Axel Niestle. There are good photos of late VIICs and VIIC/41 and schnorkels in it. This book might provide you with a particular choice of boat also.

Do you see the rectangular housing for the radar on the port side? On the kit the front corner looks rounded. The edge on the real ones were not rounded but had a sharp edge.

Also, the shape of the part below the rectangular radar housing on the kit looks wrong. It should be semi-circular, just like the mast antenna housing shape on U 201. The kit looks like a rectangular shape with rounded corners, not a semi-circle.

bracco_n · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 10:07 »

Check this out, this can prove my point

As you can see these are type VII boats fitted with Schnorkels on the port side and with the pipe running from the Wintergarten to the mast. This pipe is missing in both U-995 and Revell's model, why is that? U-995's Schnorkel is of another kind? Was this pipe removed from U-995 and thus not represented in the model?
these are the questions I need to answer.

dougie47 · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 11:43 »

Hi Nicolas,

The last image proves my point that there were two distinct styles of snort - one with the pipe and another without the pipe. If you look closely at the image you will see U 1109 and U 278 don't have the pipe, U 1058 has.

U 995 was one of the boats which didn't have the pipe. Revell most likely used U 995 as a reference for their model, as you said. As Revell used U 995, which didn't have the pipe, their model doesn't have it either.

Cheers,

Dougie

bracco_n · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 13:13 »

I noticed that interesting point. New questions come to my mind. As we've seen, some U-boats had the pipe and others didn't. This pipe conducted the fresh air into the boat and led the exhaust fumes to the exterior, am I right? So (If I'm right) the boats without the pipe on the side of the CG might had that pipe in other place, perhaps under the upperdeck. What I want to know is how this different tipe of snort was connected to the Diesels. The only thing I can see that have contact with the mast is the device on the CG that keeps the mast on place once raised and, below the upperdeck, the mechanism that is used to raise the mast. I assume that to receive the exhaust fumes the mast has to be connected to the exhaust system. This type of Snort really confuses me, can you shed more light on this subject?

dougie47 · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 14:31 »

Hi Nicolas,

Snorts aren't really my favourite subject but I'll try.

The pipe from the tower to the snort was air trunking. On boats with the air trunking we'll call T-boats (for trunking boats). On boats such as U 995 without the air trunking we'll call N-boats (for no-trunking boats).

T-boats - fresh air
In VIICs the fresh air intake was located at the rear of the tower, high up on the tower itself. Since the air trunking lead to the rear of the tower it is a fair bet the trunks were for the fresh air.
The fresh air from the top of the snort went down through a pipe inside the snort mast. Then it turned 90 degrees and went down the air trunking to the rear end of the tower. (I think!)

N-boats - fresh air
These boats didn't have the air trunking from the tower to the snort. Since there is no visible connection to the tower, I assume there must have been some connection near at the foot of the snort mast itself?

T-boats and N-boats - exhaust gases
On both types the exhaust gases must have been routed from some connection under the deck. The gases then went up through a pipe inside the snort mast. The exhaust gases were expelled through an outlet that was either 50cm or 130cm below the top of the snort mast.

I'm not 100% sure that everything above is accurate as I've not too good on snort operation.

Cheers,

Dougie

wildspear · « **Reply #20 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 20:39 »

What are the four hatches on the forward deck?

Siara · « **Reply #21 on:** 29 Dec , 2008, 23:47 »

Quote from: wildspear on 29 Dec , 2008, 20:39

What are the four hatches on the forward deck?

Life preservers- rafts.

bracco_n · « **Reply #22 on:** 30 Dec , 2008, 16:53 »

At U-historia's forum we are discussing the same issua and we reached the same conclusion. The Schnorkel that used the outer pipe was one type while the other (like the one on U-995) was a more advanced version which had all the piping belowdecks. The thread is in spanish and to see it you have to register. I leave the link if you want to give it a try:
http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/foro/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2397

Rokket · « **Reply #23 on:** 31 Dec , 2008, 16:15 »

Random ramblings that may be known and/or no use...

In Iron Coffins Werner talks about snorkels, desperately wanted one. He chatted with another commander who was (supposedly) getting a boat with hydraulic torp loading, a fancy snorkel, and other goodies. Presumably yes, there were updated snort models. Werner got a snort 5 mins before the war ended, and had a few problems:

"Then a sudden vacuum prevented me from questioning him. The float of the Schnorkel had jammed in closed position, and with the air intake cut off, the port engine had sucked most of the air out of the hull before the diesel could be halted. The Chief's orders died in the thinned air. The men gasped for air, their eyes bulging out." Later he describes taking on water, 5 tons i the mast piping and 20 in the diesel compartment. U 865 reported by radio their snort was defective and unable to dive, bombed. (They sunk). Later again the sort mast was frozen, broken cable. It was frozen erect! This was the cable-raised type, prolly early model.

The snort porblems continued for years with the USN (at least thru to the early 60s). My former Cmdr mate tells of the auto-cut-off valve on the float constantly shutting (to prevent wave flooding) - it would stop suddenly, and the diesels would keep sucking air anyway for a couple heartbeats, and during that short few seconds you'd get a vacuum jus like Werner experienced. Not sure if it was ever perfected for the USN, but now they have nukes. (I would be a tad nervous with a reactor on the other side of a bulkhead. They store emergency diesel in a tank between because apparently it's good at absorbing the stray radioactive bits, but...Diesel Boats Forever!)

The Aussies have snorts on their boats, and I guess they work well enough. (New German boats, at least two, use fuel cells in addition to batts, so don't need snorts, pretty cool).

wildspear · « **Reply #24 on:** 31 Dec , 2008, 20:21 »

rokket,
that was very informative. I always enjoy reading the post you and doug put on this site, I learn everday.

Rokket · « **Reply #25 on:** 31 Dec , 2008, 20:24 »

Thanks wildspear. Happy New Year!

Oh, torp shutters...I don't want to get you excited YET, but things are good. IM me your postal address, but this is till a few weeks away.

bracco_n · « **Reply #26 on:** 31 Dec , 2008, 22:09 »

Rokket, thank you very much for that info!
I've got the answer and it had always been under my nose, don't have time to write now, tomorrow will post.
Happy New Year!

Greif · « **Reply #27 on:** 04 Jan , 2009, 07:14 »

Quote from: bracco_n on 18 Dec , 2008, 17:31

Do you have pictures of camuflage for artic boats? I would like to represent one of the Type VIIC/41 operating against artic convoys. My other idea is to represent one in late war greys during training in the baltic.
I'm open for other ideas.

Hi bracco,

the most recent U-boot in Focus has some good pictures of U-307 and a very nice color drawing of the boat. I have looked through my refernces and I have not been able to find pictures of any Type VIIc/41's in artic camo.

I will keep looking, as an artic boat was my first choice also!

bracco_n · « **Reply #28 on:** 04 Jan , 2009, 17:10 »

Greif I appreciate your help! I'm not completely decided but I think I'm going to build U-482 returning from it's first patrol. it will look nice with five Siegwimpel flying from the periscope, heavily corroded after 2700 nm underwater and painted in dark gray. I couldn't find any pictures from the boat, can anybody provide me with pictures from this boat?

NZSnowman · « **Reply #29 on:** 06 Jan , 2009, 11:51 »

VIIC Schnorkels piping.

There is a very good drawing of the piping for the air supping and exhaust for the N-boats (for no-trunking boats) on page 64 in 'The Type VII U-boat' by David Westwood. This may help.

bracco_n · « **Reply #30 on:** 06 Jan , 2009, 12:14 »

Here's the answer to the Schnorkel question. The diagrams are taken from U-historia.com' guided tour of U-995.

The pink pipe takes the exhaust gases to the Schnorkel base belowdecks. The dark blue pipe is the air inteke for the Diesels. You can see that it has a smaller ramification that runs to Schnorkel base. In earlier configurations (so I think) this pipe is the one we see on the pictures I posted, in later configurations (and, perhaps, because it caused drag when submerging) the pipe was located belowdecks like we see in U-995.
Another view

billp51d · « **Reply #31 on:** 06 Jan , 2009, 14:26 »

Well done Nicolas...This also answers questions for myself also, as I am researching the trunking for my /41 p-hull..Many thanks in advance...Bill

wildspear · « **Reply #32 on:** 06 Jan , 2009, 14:43 »

I'm going to have to build a u-boat just so I can put all this great info to use.

bracco_n · « **Reply #33 on:** 06 Jan , 2009, 16:36 »

You bet, there are tons of incredible information in U-historia technical part the only down side is that it is in spanish (not a problem for me argentinian). I reccomend you to check out the site with the help of an online translator.
www.u-historia.com

Siara · « **Reply #34 on:** 08 Jan , 2009, 03:00 »

Braccon_n i just thought i mention it, the U-482 youd like to build it was of the VIIC type- not the VIIC/41.
It was build in Kiel works in the batch of 22 boats/ actual number of boats built-21 because U-474 was bombed after the launch , and never completed/ The batch stretched from U-465 to U-486.

bracco_n · « **Reply #35 on:** 08 Jan , 2009, 14:12 »

I'm not fully decided yet about which boat I want to build. Will keep on watching pictures for inspiration.

Greif · « **Reply #36 on:** 08 Jan , 2009, 14:18 »

Quote from: bracco_n on 06 Jan , 2009, 16:36

You bet, there are tons of incredible information in U-historia technical part the only down side is that it is in spanish (not a problem for me argentinian). I reccomend you to check out the site with the help of an online translator.
www.u-historia.com

Hi bracco, your link is a great site! Lots of good information as you said. Thank you for pointing it out!

Greif

dougie47 · « **Reply #37 on:** 10 Jan , 2009, 07:14 »

Hi Bracco,

Nice info, very interesting.

Cheers,

Dougie

bracco_n · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 Jan , 2009, 16:34 »

It's hard to find a suitable boat to represent. Most Type VIIC/41 were surrendered or scuttled or didn't carry out any war patrol. The typical boats are U-995 and U-997 but they have been built many times. I want to build a boat that nobody built. I thought about representing a boat surrendering with the black flag flying from a raised periscope but that's not what I want to represent, I want to show a U-boat in a glorious moment.
I thought about U-300 after it's third patrol, two pennants flying, dark gray colours. But couldn't find any pictures of this boat, can anybody help me?

NZSnowman · « **Reply #39 on:** 12 Jan , 2009, 13:45 »

I found a old drawing I do last year of the Schnorkel system. It may help.

billp51d · « **Reply #40 on:** 12 Jan , 2009, 23:00 »

Simon..Would you have the forward (front) half of this drawing available. It's done in great detail...and would be useful in building my next p- hull...Thanks in advance...Bill in the U.S.A.

NZSnowman · « **Reply #41 on:** 12 Jan , 2009, 23:08 »

Hi Bill, do you want outside or inside the P. hull? I have both if you need them.

billp51d · « **Reply #42 on:** 12 Jan , 2009, 23:25 »

Hi again,Simon...Outside plumbing would be great if it's handy..I'm looking to build with more accuracy than my first p- hull....Many thanks for your reply....Bill

NZSnowman · « **Reply #43 on:** 13 Jan , 2009, 00:01 »

Here what I have drawn already. I have not done much in this area of the boat yet. Hope is helps anyway.

billp51d · « **Reply #44 on:** 13 Jan , 2009, 00:20 »

.........Thank you, Simon...Now if I can just make hardware for the flanges (we'll see) I'll be doing well
Many thanks for all your efforts...Bill

NZSnowman · « **Reply #45 on:** 15 Jan , 2009, 00:55 »

Hi Bill. Today I did the high pressure system on the outer hull, it

Greif · « **Reply #46 on:** 15 Jan , 2009, 01:02 »

The graphic work is looking great Simon. They are good enough to use for reference.

Ernest

NZSnowman · « **Reply #47 on:** 15 Jan , 2009, 02:55 »

I can get a little carry away with the detail sometime. I have been working on the wooden deck of my VIIC/41 for two days now, it has over 400 bolts and over 1,100 wood screws and about 40 rivets. Which I have place and align each one

All my drawings are base on blue prints or photographs of U-995. Almost all the piping within the u-boat will even have the right number of bolts on the plates

You can see the pipeing under the wooden deck

Engine Room pipeing base on detail pipeing plans

Diesel exhaust system base on pictures of U-995

Siara · « **Reply #48 on:** 15 Jan , 2009, 03:05 »

Thats just nuts Simon.

Sometimes i think its more than making plastic model. You certainly have patience my friend.
Just one thought- we had the discussion here on AMP few months back about the U-995, and i would be carefull judging the appearance of it as the example of the VIIc/41 in general. Its known to go through several refits while in Norwegian Navy.
Still- theres not much to choose from- unless you are the deep sea diver.

billp51d · « **Reply #49 on:** 15 Jan , 2009, 06:20 »

Quote from: NZSnowman on 15 Jan , 2009, 00:55

Hi Bill. Today I did the high pressure system on the outer hull, it

NZSnowman · « **Reply #50 on:** 15 Jan , 2009, 10:40 »

Hi Siara. Your right about all the changes that U-995 has been through. I have a good idea that they are through other internet boards, pictures & books etc... There even been changes while at Laboe. I have been for the most part luckly and found many of them and have found a few new ones myself. A couple of months ago I was able to found the original colour of the main electrical control panel, which I thought was very cool

If I lived near Laboe, I would love to restore U-995 back to its prime and original form. I would also be really keen on making very detail draws and 3D models of her inside and outside, and making them free to everyone before all the information and data is loss forever. I almost had the chance to see U-995 a couple of years ago. As I was going for a skiing trip to Europe but I had to cancel my trip about one week before I left

Now, that I am building a new house for myself, it going to be few a years before I can save the money again. I also have double reasons to go to Germany as my girlfriend is German and I really miss her in our summer down here.

http://www.german-uboats.com/Uboat%20Photos/U995-1.jpg
http://www.german-uboats.com/Uboat%20Photos/U995-2.jpg
http://www.german-uboats.com/Uboat%20Photos/U995-3.jpg
http://www.german-uboats.com/Uboat%20Photos/U995-4.jpg
Check out those old pictures of U-995 from Laboe. Checkout the bow and the bridge