U-711

[Jan]

Hi folks,

i`ve been reading your reports on building the VII C with great interest. The results are super! This encouraged me to become a member of your forum, too.

Since the beginning of 2007 i`m working on a model of U-711. Because of the several tower modifications it`s an interessting project, though the research is a bit complicated.

Can anyone please support me with fotos of "frontpanzers" and "panzerk

[GlennCauley]

Welcome!   

I profess no knowledge of U711, but there are a few different places to get information from (aside from Google searches):

• www.modelwarships.com
• www.steelnavy.com
• www.modelshipwrights.com
• www.uboat.net
• www.ubootwaffe.net
• Rokket's Workbench

Also you might contact the following people directly :

• Wink Gris

[dougie47]

Hi Jan and Glenn,

First of all, welcome to the AMP forum. Glad you can be with us. A similar welcome to everyone who has  joined us.

Gaining specific info on features of U 711 will prove difficult. Info is scattered arouund various books and websites and there isn't one resource covering what the modeller needs to know. The resources Glenn pointed out are definitely places to visit. I do think there is the need for an article on the development of the Type VII, aimed specifically at the modeller of the Revell kits. I will at some point finish such an article but have the Type II set and other writing projects to finish first. As I've not finished researching the modifications made to mid-to-late war boats I will be unable to assist you to the level that I would like. But I shall try.

A colour image of U 711 in July 1944 can be found on the following the SubCommittee thread -

http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB2/messageboards.php5

The following link shows the image in larger size -

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVuBfDA

U 711 is third from the right.

The order to fit the armoured boxes was issued on 4th June 1943. An order to remove them was made on the 30th October 1943. However, not all of the boxes were removed. U 711 still had the boxes in July 1944 and U 480 still had the boxes in October 1944.

I dare say there were variations between the boxes. The starboard side was to hold five men and the port box to hold only one man. The port box was farther forward than the starboard box. Ralf has done a very good job of the U 377 boxes so you might use his build as a reference aid.

What I'm still looking for, like yourself, is an image showing the entrance of the boxes. Still looking!

Many boats which had the boxes were also fitted with armour plates on the front face of the top half of the tower. U 711 definitely had these plates. If you have a close look at the U 711 tower you'll see a vertical line on either side of a hole. The armour plates on U 711 were not fully rounded around the tower - rather they had an edge to them in two places.

Let me know if you can't see the edges and I'll photoshop in a few arrows.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Jan]

Thank you very much Glenn and Dougie!

Especially Glenn

[dougie47]

Hi Jan,

Very welcome. Glenn, Siara and Wink take modelling to the level of craftmanship. But there is always a place for building quick out-of-box builds too. Otherwise we'd only ever finish a few models!

I presume the boxes were taken away because of instability. That much weight so high up on the boat must have created a problem.

I've been meaning to post a question on late war decks. Now that you and Glenn have posted recently it is a good time to discuss it. I will start a new thread on the subject tonight.

Greets from Schottland,

Dougie

[Siara]

Welcome to our forum Jan.
Unfortunately i know nothing about Your boat- but Wink, Glen, and Dougie should help You- They are the best people in bussiness.
I wish You lot of patience, and i will follow Your build with great deal of interest.
BTW: Thanks all for good words. I moved to new place over last weekend, and once i get all my boxes unpacked i should start work again this weekend.

[Jan]

Those boats are already pieces of art...

At first, I just wanted to build it right out of the box. But then, I saw in a german modellers forum, people scraping the inside of the boats out in order to open the floods. So my mission was clear...

Now, after doing some detailwork on the superstructure, I

[Siara]

If i can offer some words of comfort to you- it taken me 6 months to sort out the hull alone.

[rabapla]

Hello Jan,
 
well......my name is Ralf Banach from D

[GlennCauley]

additional photos came from "deutsches u-boot archiv cuxhaven" (now:"deutsches u-boot-museum")
believe me folks: the absolutely positively BEST adress for research!!!

but........
it is a private venture; run by a former "u-bootfahrer", Herrn H.Bredow. right now museum and archiv occupy 3(!) buildings. they've got information (and mostly photos) on every boat!
if You give them a phone call, asking for photos etc.: please keep in mind that it is a private venture! a small donation always helps!!!!

Welcome!

By chance does this archive have a contact e-mail?   I would very much like to get pics of U-673 for my build, as information is scarce. (Also would like info on U-625 my other model, since this is one of particular significance to my family.)

I would certainly be willing to make a small donation, but would only want to communicate via e-mail... long distance from Canada to Germany would be a bit too costly for me. 

Cheers!
Glenn

[GlennCauley]

Forget my last posting... the Archiv does not have an e-mail address... all inquiries are to be through phone, fax, or regular mail.

See here for more information on the Deutsches U-Boot Museum-Archiv, including contact info and pricing for research queries.

[dougie47]

Hi Rabapla,

Ah, so you are Ralf. Nice progress you are making on your U 377. I think Showell would approve.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Rokket]

Hi Guys,

Welcome to new members and hello to old. THIS is what modelling is about, the great mutli-flow of information and encouragement! Whta a great thread you've made this.

Ralph, very glad you are still at it, and what a great resource! all should post pix when you can.

[rabapla]

Well I'm not the best with computers, I'll try anyway.

here the only pictures of the entrances of the panzerk

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

Computers have their uses but can be a pain in the backside 

Thanks for posting the images, not seen the top two before. I can't quite make out the entrance. Can you describe how big the entrance was?

Thanks agian,

Dougie

[rabapla]

Hi,

in the top photo You see the entrance: it's where the cloth is hanging!
in the middle picture You just see the edge of the door case at the extrem right.
I'll have to measure it at home............

[Rokket]

I'll have to measure it at home............

"Measure it at home"? Do you LIVE on a VII? Cool!

[rabapla]

 
measure it on my VII C model!

Took a lot of eyeballing, cross-measuring and such.
I think my conversion measures up exactly on the revell model; which doesn't mean it would scale up exactly with the real thing.....

still have interpretation- problems with the domed cover in front of the "cockpit" in relation to the periskope (see photos in Gallery of U 377)

 

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

Thanks for the clarification on the doors...I see now.

Yes, I do see what you mean about the domed cover. It almost looks like it occupied the same area as the sky periscope.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rabapla]

One can exactly detect where the domed cover hits the side wall, but........
when You draw a straight, rectangular (to the long axis of the boat) to the other side:
the edge of the domed cover crosses right over the MIDDLE of the sky periskope!

maybe the trailing edge (forgive that aeroplane-term) was curved to the anterior as well?

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

"Curved to the anterior" - your English is better than mine!

Yeah, the cover might well have been curved in that way. Or the sky persicope could have been slightly farther back? Or a combination of both?

Intersting point this.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rabapla]

"Curved to the anterior" - your English is better than mine!

Well, radiologist talk: describe it when you can't name it 

I'm very sure they won't change the position of the periscope for a simple cover!

still not sure about that cover, can't make it out in the photos...................
Do You have any similar stuff?

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

Sorry, I was didn't make myself clear. My fault. I didn't mean that they might have moved the periscope back.  I was asking if the position of the sky periscope on the Revell kit was fractionally too far forward on the kit?

I'm looking at photos now and I think the periscope IS in the correct position in the kit. What do you think?

I've only seen one photo of the domed cover and that is on U 377. This photo is in one of Showell's books.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rabapla]

all of my shots (except one, which is from deutsches u-boot archiv) are out of showells book (as in the gallery here)

best

ralf

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

There is a photo here which shows a cover -

http://www.german-uboats.com/Uboat%20Photos/U94-2.jpg

It might not be quite as curved as U 377. But it does have a semi-circle cut out at the rear for the periscope.

The boat isn't U 94 but I'm not sure which boat it is.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Jan]

Happy new year!

In the last time, i made some progress concerning the oil-canning.

Not that my U-711 is ready now to get its colourcoat... but i wonder what colour the boat has on the pictures above. It seems to be a very light colour... silver grey, squrirel-grey or even "schnellbootwei

[dougie47]

Hi Jan,

For everybody, U 711 is the one with the dark stripe -


U 362 is in the foreground, U 711 is just to the right of U 362 -


Lower hull would be Schiffsbodenfarbe (WL) III Grau as you say.

Hellgrau 50 did sometimes appear almost white in direct sunlight. So the upper hull may have been Hellgrau 50. Schnellbootwei

[Jan]

Thanks Dougie!

I think black-blue might be a nice colour for the stripes...

Ok,  here are some pics of my boat. There is still a lot to do...

[rabapla]

Hi Ralf,

There is a photo here which shows a cover -

http://www.german-uboats.com/Uboat%20Photos/U94-2.jpg

It might not be quite as curved as U 377. But it does have a semi-circle cut out at the rear for the periscope.

The boat isn't U 94 but I'm not sure which boat it is.

Cheers,

Dougie

Perfect, curved or not: it clearly shows the position of the cover in relation to the rivet lines!
thanks a lot!

[Greif]

Your U-711 building is coming along nicely!  I really like the "oil canning"!  Keep up the great work!

Greif

[bracco_n]

Could you please teach this rookie how you did the oil canning?

[Jan]

Hi bracco_n,

it`s not very difficult...but it takes a lot of time!

You "just" have to scratch out the areas between the rivets with a scapel...i think the knife is nr. 10. It

[billp51d]

    Jan / Bracco_n....Check out ... The "Glenn Cauley" site, U-673, Hull Detailing.....A picture's worth a thousand words. By the way....Hull "oil canning" is like everything else....Just when you start having fun....your all done !
                            Regards / Cheers...Bill

[bracco_n]

Thank both of you!
keep up the good work!

[Jan]

Glenn Cauleys U-673 site is a must!

I doubt, that oil-canning is ever starting to be fun...   But it`s definitely worth the effort!

When its done one fine day, I think "schnellbootwei

[Siara]

Key to good looking oil canning effect is not to overdo it. I realised, its impossible to make good oil canning- without sanding the / too big anyway / rivets. If you have enough patience- just sand the railway like rivets, and scrape away freely. The oil canning should be smooth curvature of the hull- no hard edges. Best is to scrape away little from the midle between rivet lines- then use various grade sandpapers to smooth the surface. Have look at the way Rokket has done it on his 557, and mine 552. It should give you some ideas.
Good luck- i know it is messy bussiness.

[bracco_n]

Yes, difficult bussines. I'm still opening the flood holes so I have a looot of time to wonder what I'm going to do. Thanks for the help!

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

A while back we discussed the domed cover and the position of the sky periscope. Does this photo of U 483 help? The lid is in place over the sky periscope.

http://cgi.ebay.de/U-Boot-Foto-U-483-Auskug-mit-Fernglas-Einsatz-um-1943_W0QQitemZ260355324361QQihZ016QQcategoryZ15504QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Cheers,

Dougie

[Jan]

Does anyone has a pic of a "front-panzer" to share?

Greets

[bracco_n]

Have you made some progress on your boat?

[Jan]

Thanks for your interest, Nicolas!

I took a pause from the oil-canning, I was bored too much. I`ll continue when its warm outside. So I can sit in the sun while scraping. 

Instead the last sundays were dedicated to the pleasurable ct-conversion. I added the starboard panzerkasten and the "frontpanzer". Then I replaced the kits wind deflector by a scratch-build one using the frame of my WEM-PE  When I went out of glue, I cleaned the wintergarten from the kits "deck" to prepare for the Nautilus deck. Yesterday I applied a primer...

I already tried to post some pics, but system said "Your upload folder is full!"
Hope, I`ll find out how this image-shack (?) works.

Greets

[bracco_n]

imageshack is pretty straightforward. select the picture you want to upload and then resize it if you want. Once you're done hit "upload". Once the photo is uploaded you'll see a screen that contains many web addresses, there's one that says hotlink for forums (1). Copy that one and then paste it in your message.

I'm glad you're maing progress on your boat, I really look forward to your build. It'll be nice to have a model with the AA shelters. Keep up the good work!

[Jan]

Ok, here are the promised pics:





















...as you can see, there are still a lot of things to do - but its progressing.

[bracco_n]

Jan, your model is coming out nicely. Out of all the projects currently being built, yours is the one I'm most interested in. You are doing a terrific job on that conning tower.
Did you check my U-1023? It's not that good but it's coming out better than what I expected.
Keep up the good work!

[Greif]

Jan, I agree with Bracco, your conning tower looks great!  This will be a very neat looking model when you are finished.

Ernest

[Siara]

Its always nice to see the complex builds such as this one. I admire the skill and invention in making custom parts. Looking good thus far.

[Jan]

Thank you very much for your kind words! 

@Nicolas: Of course I follow your build, too! I havent`t seen a model yet showing the modifications you are planning, so I`m really curious about it. And the construction of a pressure hull is a very interessting issue since its one of things I still have to do...

[bracco_n]

Thank you Jan, I'll keep on working!

[Rokket]

Nice progress, you should feel good!

[bracco_n]

Hey Jan! Have you made any progress?

[Jan]

Hey...

...I didn`t really progressed my build in the last time, cause I

[Pat]

Is Jan or anybody else still active on this thread?

I've been building a U-711 for a year and just came across this site and had to join as soon as I saw Jan's duck insignia and reconized it as the one I'm doing. 

I'd be interested in seeing how Jan's model turned out(if indeed he's finished) and perhaps sharing some info.

I wouldn't have found it at all except my computer crashed, I lost all my research and had to start over again.

I'm currently at about the stage Jan was in these pictures, although I'm scratchbuilding the hull and intend on making most of the hatches in the deck functional to be able to see the pressure hull and trunking, spare torpedoes, etc.

[Jan]

happy new year to everyone! 

yeah, i`m still active! even though i don

[Siara]

Good to have you back Jan!
Eagerly awaiting pictures.

[Pat]

Jan, of course time restrictions can be a problem for anybody but please don

[Siara]

Is that the picture?

[NZSnowman]

Is that the picture?

There a picture from the same set of pictures in the book U-BOOTE CREWS: Daily Life, 1939 - 1945 by Jean Delize on page 95. It labeled the polar bear was shot from U-255.

[Pat]

No, that's not the picture.

The one I'd had was labelled a Hans-Gunther Lang on U-711 and it was taken from somebody standing on the wintergarten looking backwards.  Lang was on the port side looking towards the camera with the bear in front of him.

[NZSnowman]

Hi Pat.

I think I seen this picture in one of my many books. I will have a look through them and see if I can found something.

Simon

[Jan]

I think, I know what picture you are thinking of...but I lost it, when my computer got this virus...

Does anyone has a picture of the forward casing torpedo loading hatches OPENED? I want to display U 711 as on the picture Dougie posted a year ago of U 711 being tied with U 365, U 362, U 278 and U 997 next to Black Watch. As you can see, the loading hatches are opened. But I don`t have a good photo, on which you can see the undersurface clear enough to model it...

[Pat]

Jan, if you're talking about what it looks like INSIDE the casing, under the hatches, no, but if you want pictures of the hatches opened and the loading gear set up, I have a couple pictures of those and one picture (not a very good one) of the torpedo cannister on the outside of a type X.

[Jan]

Thanks Pat! Any picture is very welcome. 
I meant the undersurface of the hatch itself.

[NZSnowman]

Jan, I am also looking for this picture of the under surface of the hatch. I checked my books and pictures and could not found it. If you found it I would also be keen to have a look

[iandk]

Just like to say hello.
Found this forum while looking for info on the U-711. Finding this thread was like winning the lotto.
I had the crazy idea of building the u-boat that sank HMS Bluebell, Which I am building at the moment.
Untill now this is the only place that has any form of detail information on the u-711 that I can use!
I will be watching very closely!
This will be my first sub and my knowlage is limited to that fact it was a VII C. So as you can tell I have a lot to learn!!!
I will be asking loads of questions, but first I need the kit. Harder to find these days now that revell have pulled it.
Found one on eBay.de so just waiting for it to dock.

[Jan]

At least I found the pic of Kpt.z.S. Lange with the polarbear on taucher.net, which is a good source concerning U-711.

Some pics of the actual state of my project are com

[Jan]

Those are  the links I bookmarked:
 
http://www.taucher.net/redaktion/30/Blaue_Bohnen_am_Polarkreis_11.html#Feindfahrten
http://www.taucher.net/redaktion/30/Blaue_Bohnen_am_Polarkreis_11_sub1.html

 

If anyone else finds a good source, please feel free to post it...

[Jan]

Here is my pressure hull, constructed following Glenn`s plan:

[Jan]

The bow - in a bad condition 

[Jan]

and some work on the deck while waiting for the bow:

[Jan]

radio direction finder

[Jan]

@NZSnowman: i found a picture of the underside of the front torp hatch in "Vom Original zum Modell", (unfortunately) it is of a Schnorkel-deck:

[NZSnowman]

Jan, thanks for the pictures. I have also seem another very good picture of under the deck but I still have not find it again 

[bracco_n]

Jan your work is great! I really like it. Keep up!

[Siara]

Good show Jan.

[Jan]

Thank you, guys! 

[Pat]

Jan, interesting pic of the underside of the hatch.  It seems to be a late-war boat much like U-995.

The sideways opening hatches nearest the stern look about what I had surpmised, with one diagonal brace although it's not possible from the pic to tell if the brace is wood or steel.  I'd guess steel but does anybody know?

Further forward there seems to be a hatch that is solid, but in a position that would stop them accessing the spare torpedo at the same time as the torpedo loading hatch is open.  That doesn't make sense!  Or am I looking at it wrong?

Again, there's those rectangular extensions on either side of the casing.  Does anybody know what they are?  I've never seen a pic of them on U-711 (the one I'm building) but they would be very hard to cut off and remake the casing underneath without showing.

Another question.  On this boat, as on U-995, the domed pressure hatches for the inflatables are exposed on top of the deck.  But on U-711, even though the domes aren't there, there are wooden hatches in about the same locations.  Are these wooden hatches just an older version of the stowage for the inflatables?  And if so, why did the hatches move up to the open deck later on?  Was the reason that the early inflatables were smaller?

Also, FYI for people, I've seen a couple of pix of the portside at the bow (sorry, I can't find them again) where there seems to be a flat sheet of metal behind the drainage holes going from the start of theinflatable hatches to the back end of the inflatable hatches.  (holes 10-17).  I have not seen anything similar on the stbd side.  The only thing I can think of is that this flat sheet must be a sort of container for the inflatable pressure canisters, probably as something to make it slightly more hydrodynamic under the deck.

The flat sheet seemed to be the same colour as the outside casing, because it would be very easy to see. 

However, I've seen other boats that do not show this flat piece of fairing.  Either it just painted a darker colour on some boats (the same as the underwater parts of the hull?) and thus didn't show up on photos, or it was something that not all boats had for some reason.  (Maybe the inflatable canisters were all separate and less hydrodynamic in those boats?)

Any comments?

[Rokket]

very nice detail!

[NZSnowman]

Again, there's those rectangular extensions on either side of the casing.  Does anybody know what they are?  I've never seen a pic of them on U-711 (the one I'm building) but they would be very hard to cut off and remake the casing underneath without showing.

I asked the same question late October. Check out the reply I got over at Uboat.net
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?14,81381,81381#msg-81381

[NZSnowman]

The sideways opening hatches nearest the stern look about what I had surpmised, with one diagonal brace although it's not possible from the pic to tell if the brace is wood or steel.  I'd guess steel but does anybody know?

I do not know for sure but I imagine it will be made of wood as I think it would be easier to make the whole hatch out of wood   

[NZSnowman]

Further forward there seems to be a hatch that is solid, but in a position that would stop them accessing the spare torpedo at the same time as the torpedo loading hatch is open.  That doesn't make sense!  Or am I looking at it wrong?

No you not looking at it wrong. One hatch opening inward and the other opening to the bow. The torpedo loading hatch would only overlay a small bit over the spare torpedo hatch. It hard to see from the drawing below but the blue arrow show the opening side

[NZSnowman]

Another question.  On this boat, as on U-995, the domed pressure hatches for the inflatables are exposed on top of the deck.  But on U-711, even though the domes aren't there, there are wooden hatches in about the same locations.  Are these wooden hatches just an older version of the stowage for the inflatables?  And if so, why did the hatches move up to the open deck later on?  Was the reason that the early inflatables were smaller?

Yes, the wooden hatches are just an older version of the stowage for the inflatables. I believe there were no pressure container under the deck, but I am unsure how the inflatables were stored 

I also believe all Type VIIC/41 had the pressure containers and only a few Type VIIC had them.

[NZSnowman]

Also, FYI for people, I've seen a couple of pix of the portside at the bow (sorry, I can't find them again) where there seems to be a flat sheet of metal behind the drainage holes going from the start of theinflatable hatches to the back end of the inflatable hatches.  (holes 10-17).  I have not seen anything similar on the stbd side.  The only thing I can think of is that this flat sheet must be a sort of container for the inflatable pressure canisters, probably as something to make it slightly more hydrodynamic under the deck.

The flat sheet seemed to be the same colour as the outside casing, because it would be very easy to see. 

However, I've seen other boats that do not show this flat piece of fairing.  Either it just painted a darker colour on some boats (the same as the underwater parts of the hull?) and thus didn't show up on photos, or it was something that not all boats had for some reason.  (Maybe the inflatable canisters were all separate and less hydrodynamic in those boats?)

Any comments?

Not a 100% what this flat sheet of metal look like, but if you find the pictures again, post them as I would be keen to have a look.

[Pat]

I've been looking for the pictures again for over a year and haven't seen them.  Perhaps the light has to be coming from just the right angle to make the sheet show up.  It looked like it was perhaps a foot inside the casing, and as I said, because it goes from the start of where the inflatable hatches start and ends where the hatches end, it makes sense that it has something to do with the inflatables.  Boxing all the canisters in to make them more hydrodynamic makes sense, but of course to do so it would have to have drain holes since it wouldn't be pressurized.

[NZSnowman]

I will look at my pictures and see what I can found.

[NZSnowman]

Pat, I had a look at all my pictures on my computer, but didn't find anything I will check all my books over the next few days.

[Pat]

Yeah, I know it's hard to find pix of that metal sheet.  I've only seen it twice and as I said, not sure if it was because of the angle of the light, or if it was a rare modification (perhaps a skipper's own prerogative?).

As for the rectangular bumps on each side of the casing near the bow, I follewed your link to U-boats.net and saw your question, but no answer.

There used to be an old Kriegsmarine U-boat crewman working at a yacht club two towns over from me.  I wonder if he's still alive, still there, and might know?

[NZSnowman]

Whose 'rectangular bumps' are likely some item for reinforcing something but I think they will go into the list of items that we do know that they do on a u-boat, just like the two small bump near the bow.

[Pat]

Hmmmm, they don't look like reinforcing and it seems an odd place to need something like that.  Reinforcement would be done inside the casing to be more hydrodynamic and you'd think they'd just redesign the weak section.

I've also seen some of them where the corners are rounded off, more like the fairings over machine guns on some aircraft wings.

[NZSnowman]

I think the reinforcing is on the outside because of the schnorchel on the port side of the boat and the bollards on the starboard side. This is why we think this reinforcing is only on the boats with the schnorchel. Maybe the rounding off was a quick way to make it more hydrodynamic     

[Pat]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought to check to see if the bumps were only on schnorkel boats.  That IS a possibility.

But even still, it might be something to do with the lifting mechanism (not sure how though) but I still don't think it's reinforcing because they're always on BOTH sides and reinforcing would only be required on the port side (for type VII's) or the stb side (for IX's), but not on both.

Also, I can't think of any reason to need reinforcint there because it's the deck that's affected by the snort, not the sides. and reinforcing would make more sense inside the casing/under the deck, not on the outside.

Back to the metal sheets, since you said that the inflatable canisters were only seen on the VII C/41's and later, perhaps the inflatables for the earlier boats were kept inside a metal box that wasn't pressurized, but just enclosed to keep the inflatables in place?  (with appropriate drainage holes).

[NZSnowman]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought to check to see if the bumps were only on schnorkel boats.  That IS a possibility.

I believe so, but I have not check myself. It's on my 'To do things'

[NZSnowman]

Back to the metal sheets, since you said that the inflatable canisters were only seen on the VII C/41's and later, perhaps the inflatables for the earlier boats were kept inside a metal box that wasn't pressurized, but just enclosed to keep the inflatables in place?  (with appropriate drainage holes).

I have always imagine this was the way they kept the inflatables in place with the older boats.

[Rokket]

hmmm, no real need for pressure I'd guess, makes sense

[Pat]

Yes, no real need for pressurizing a container with inflatables, since they'd just flatten out when under water.

The main reason that I can think of to keep water away from the inflatables is that over time, they'd get pretty yucky to touch, with whatever marine life and algae would start growing on them.

But then, if you've spent 3 weeks in a U-boat in the first place, a little algae on your hands shouldn't be much of a problem.

The thing that surprises me is that onplans for some of the older U-boats, I've seen drawings that show a hard-hulled lifeboat stowed under the deck near the 88 deck gun.  That must have been difficult to get out in rough seas.

[billp51d]

     Hi Wink....Never could figure out the life boat either..It had to be an effort especially waterlogged. Doubt if they had fiberglass yet, huh ?
                                                                Bill

[NZSnowman]

All the things I have read about U-Boats, I have never heard them used these inflatables. I imagine once there a hole is your pressure hull from a depth charge there not a lot of time to get the inflatables out.

[Pat]

Well, my guess is that anything powerful enough to put a hole in the casing, let alone the pressure hull, wouldn't be stopped by a couple mm of rubber.

My guess is that the inflatables were intended more for landing crew, spies or sabateurs on enemy shores.  I've heard of a few cases where German agents were landed in N. America, and I have no doubt that they would have landed people in the Narvik area ahead of operations, and possibly in Malta or remote Scottish and Irish coasts.

Another possibility is that they used inflatables to go ashore for supplies when for whatever reason (water depth?-enemy activity?) they couldn't dock directly.  Water could be a critical item at times but why cut a mission short when you still have fuel and ammo?  Just find a deserted coast/island and go ashore and fill jerrycans.

Of course, I've used my own inflatable to go ashore for a beer run on accassion.  ;-)

[Rokket]

plus there's the Titanic lesson...it does seem silly to have them, but maybe not so much if you can cram a few lifeboats/uility boats in....

[Pat]

I wonder if the inflatables were just a way of making the crew feel better, that at least psycologically, they might think there was some chance of survival?

[Pat]

Jan, since we're both building the same boat, a couple of questions that perhaps you might know the answer to.

What are the colours of the duck emblem?  I'm sort of guessing the wing is light blue, the bow red and whatever it is on the back green, but I don't know for sure.

What is the significance of the emblem?  Is it from some sort of fairy tale story?

How did you make the emblem?  I've thought of making it on a photo program, printing it and then reducing it down by photocopy, but not sure I can do that.  I've thought of freehand painting it,and I think I can do that with some of my techniques, but if there's a better way, I'm all ears.

[Jan]

Hi Pat,

according to Taucher.net the duck emblem was chosen, because Kpt.-Lt. Lange was a passionate hunter. For that reason he always had a shotgun beneath his bunk - there might always be a chance to go on a hunt. I just had to think of the surfer-guy in "Apocalypse Now"  . Plus, his fiancee gave him a rubber duck as a talisman. Thats the reason for the white duck with the red bandanna.

What you can see in the background right next to the head of the duck are two thistles. They were also chosen to bring luck - in sense of the saying "Bad weeds grow tall". I don`t know for sure, but i think it was green. According to the shade of grey, it seems to be possible.

The duck emblem was often used together with the sea horse emblem in honor of the 5th flotilla.

I`ve only seen the duck emblem on front of the tower on pictures of 1943. Since i

[Pat]

Thanks for the info on the insignia jan.  I hadn't heard that before but it all adds up, especially with the 'eisbear' picture (I doubt if he stopped that one with a shotgun).  It seems I probably DID think of the colours correctly.

You also gave me a lead as to when to look for the emblem.  I'd noticed it wasn't always there but I think it was there for at least part of the time when U-711 had the deck gun, which is when I'm modelling her.

The camo pattern changes are also interesting with U-711.  I've seen it white with the (black?) swirls, while without the swirls, and what seems to be lite grey with no swirls.  Sometimes the wind deflector is black, other times not. 

[Jan]

You`re welcome. It might interest you, they gave away the deckgun in the days following 5th october 1943 

[Pat]

Do you know when exactly they gave up the deck gun?

I lost my research when my hard drive failed, but I remember coming accross that when the order came down to removedeck guns from subs, Lange asked, and was granted, permission to keep his deck gun longer since he'd been using it successfully to shell shore-based radio station in Russia.

There's even a photo ofU-711 shelling one radio tower off in the distance.

[Rokket]

late 44, early 45?

[Pat]

Yes, it makes sense that the deck gun would have been removed at the same time the schnorkel was retrofitted. 

I wish I hadn't lost all my research, because I'd made a spreadsheet of the entire history of U-711 and IIRC, there was a period about June or July, 1944, when she was in port a longer than usual time and which was probably when those changes occured.

I hadn't got a confirmed date of the gun removal/schnorkel installation, but I'd thought at the time that made the most sense.

[Rokket]

I also think it was sporadic and inconsistent, in sense that some boats were there and easy to change, others out and busy, changed later..(as in all the uboat mods!)

[Pat]

No doubt rokket.

And a foreceful skipper (as Lang no doubt was judging by his post-war life) with a good reason, could at least delay something being done to his boat that he didn't want done.

While the removal of the deck gun was likely a simple process, perhaps taking less than a day, installing a schnorkel, changing all the trunking, adding new air pumps and hydraulics for raising the mast, removing the ready ammo canister and rebuilding the deck, would likely take a considerable amount of effort.

Hmmm, I wonder if a model of U-711 with the snort should more accurately show evidence of new, unweathered decking in place around the trench and still have traces of extra wear surrounding where the deck gun used to be?  That would make for an interesting conversations starter.

[Rokket]

Ahh, different weathering, that is excellent! Or maybe take that further and have some workers putting the finishing touches on installation?

[Pat]

I've often made models showing repaired damage, especially if I can find photos of it or historical records of what damage was inflicted in a battle.

For instance, I've done tanks with scars of richochets on the mantlet, a bent front fender over one of the tracks, rust and smoke damage around the exhaust and of course, dried caked-on mud on all the lower surfaces.  Maybe also paint worn off where boots would scrape while climbing into the turret.  Aircraft with small patches over bullet holes, maybe the paint there a little brighter because it's newer.

At one time, I was planning to do a diorama of the Battle of the the River Platte.  I'd just read a book that detailed where each shell hit and what the damage was.  There were kits available of Exeter, Achilles and Graff Spee, all in the same scale and Ajax was a sister ship of Achilles, so that was doable too.  I just never did it.

Since the city just next to where I live is Ajax (there are lots of ships named after cities, but Ajax is the only city named after a ship - all the original streets were named after crewmen), maybe one day I should build it.

Anyway, back to the U-boats.  It makes snese that if you know a boat has had some mods (like the CT being modified from Turm 2-Turm 4), that the newer sections wouldn't be as weathered as the original. 

I often try to make differential weathering on my decks.  More where people walk a lot (around hatches and guns)), and less where they don't.

[Jan]

Since U-711 went through several repairs and modifications, here is timetable (only external rep +mod) basing on an article on Taucher.net which is based on an interview with Kpt.-Lt. Lange:

12.07.43 - 17.07.43: repair of M

[Pat]

So it seems my thoughts were correct.  The tower modification to Turm IV started in May 43 and was finished by May 44.  (Not sure what stage it was at any given date) but the 88mm wasn't removed until Oct/Nov 43.  (Not sure why that took so long)

So it did have at least some tower mods at the same time it had the gun.

The schnorkel wasn't fitted until much later, a year after the gun was removed.  that would give the impression that the deck was just flat and open for that year, with perhaps just a flat plate where the gun had been.

So that helps date the pix we have of U-711 tied up with the 3 other U-boats.

U-711 seemed to bump into things a lot. 

[Jan]

Oh sorry, I meant the tower modifications were entirely done in May 44. I`ll correct it...

[Pat]

Well bummer.  That means I've got the '44 tower with the '43 deck gun!

[Jan]

Sorry to hear...but its one of the main problems, when deciding to build U-711. Depending on which state you want to build it, you need more or less a hybrid of both Revellkits...

[bracco_n]

Any progress Jan?

[Jan]

Any progress Jan?

A little bit...but today was a very bad day... I tried to lower the pressure hull where it meets the "outer hull" -  because Revell only displayed the small gap with this tiny line - but unfortunately my cut was a bit to long, so I had to do some corection work to stabilize it... Hmmm, its very difficult to explain  ...I`ll post some pics when its done.

[bracco_n]

aaah doing the pressure hull! I really enjoyed doing that part! post some pics!

[Pat]

I'm making the pressure hull in my build out of pop bottles to overcome any problem like that.

I chose A&W because they have a long flat section in the middle, and it's easy to join them together and put a small band at the joint which needs to be there for accuracy anyway.

I just cut out the flat section, and then slit it down the middle so that I can make it larger or smaller as required to fit the casing hull.  To lower the pressure hull as you're doing, all you need do is squeeze the shell a little bit and it gets smaller.  The slit part overlaps and the seam is in a spot that can't be seem, or even is just a half tube if desired with another half tube inside the for and aft areas where it might show through the hull vents.

To get a gradually reducing cross section, just squeeze one end more than the other.  It glues with CA and takes paint well and is easy to drill to install trunking and pressure lines.

I'm also debating (but haven't decided yet) whether to put ballast in the keel and styrofoam inside this pressure hull to make the model float.

[billp51d]

   Pat.. Theres been some work done already with P-hulls made from cans.. Do a search on "beer can p- hull" and you'll see some interesting variations. I would have posted the link but i'm not that smart!
                                    Cheers/Regards.. Bill

[Rokket]

Unfortunately, that method requires drinking a lot of beer...but it's for a good cause

[Jan]

Its even worse  - I need some Whiskey to calm down my nerves and desinfect my fingers because of the many cuts.

I didn`t lower the pressure hull I already made. I slit up the Revell hull! 

As you can see on many pics of the original VIIC hull, the outer hull sits ON the pressure hull, its not flush. Thats why those areas look deeper than the rest.

I saw at german modellers forums, people slit up the Revell hull and push the indicated "pressure hull" inside, then fix it again. It is a delicate operation, but I think it is worth the effort. So I tried it by myself...

[Rokket]

awaiting pix...

[Rokket]

...of the p-hull, not you drinking

[Jan]

awaiting pix...

...of the p-hull, not you drinking

I

[Don in Cincinnati]

awaiting pix...

...of the p-hull, not you drinking

I

[bracco_n]

Which boat are you building Don? Can we see some pics?

[Don in Cincinnati]

Which boat are you building Don? Can we see some pics?

Attempting to give life to U96, bracco. Due to a cheap camera and lack of computer skills I am still struggling with posting pics but will try to figure it all out ASAP.

Lack of reference material is making the build go slow,too, but thanks to Dougie, Wink, Siara et al some of the gaps are getting filled in. Then too, if no one else knows what a particular detail looks like it gives me a little leeway to wing it. I am trying to walk the fine line between realism and esthetics insofar as possible. (Also acquiring a wide vocabulary of swear words along the way.   )

Thanks for the interest.

Don

[Rokket]

The thing about a p-hull in a model is that it's hard to fit because the hull is quite thick and the model is made for the outside to look good, not inside. And of course, Ok, the TWO things about  p-hull are the inside/scale thing, and that VERY little will be seen. Plus.., OK, the THREE, the THREE things...

Seriously, it is worth having on in there, but you don't need it perfect, little can be seen even if you paint it fluro yellow and shine a light. having SOMETHING is definitely good tho.

[Pat]

Unless you make the majority of thelarge deck hatches opening like I'm planning with my model. 

Then not only will you be able to see what's directly below the hatches, but with the hatches and the spacing between the deck planks, there should be enough light underneath to see much more of the p-hull.

At least enough should be visible that I'm concerned about what colour to have the compressed air tanks, but so far I haven't been able to find an answer.

[Rokket]

that's a good point!

[Jan]

Ahoi!

Thanks for your well-meant advice. But I don`t have any problems - at least for now - with my pressurehull I build using the plan of Glenn. Testfittings show it fits absolutely perfect.

[Jan]

The "problem" I meant is getting obvious, when you look at the following pictures. You see, that the outer-casing doesn`t cover the pressure hull completely. At the sides of U-Boot the pressure hull is visibly. Revell display that only with those tiny lines I mentioned. But in reality, there was an edge:







There are also tons of other pics, where you can see this edge.

[Jan]

So I went All-In! 

In some german modellers forums, I saw people slitting up their hulls in order to lower the pressure hull. I HAD to try it by myself!

The tools: One knife 11, one knife 4B and a block of wood. The block of wood prvents the hull from breaking, because there will be a lot of pressure when you try to slit up.



But the most important tool is a molding cutter (?), since the Revell hull is pretty thick and it is impossible to cut through it without a lot of milling.

[Jan]

Then I cut from the outside of the hull along the lines indicating the pressure hull. I carefully pushed the p-hull inside and fixed it with some paperstripes:




Tape prevents the epoxy glue to get throug the cuts:



After that I fixed it all with epoxy glue and some small peaces of plastic or whatever:



The front end was a bit easier to fix.

Next, I have to use some putty and sandpaper to get THE edge smooth. I`ll show you, when its done...

[Greif]

U-711 is looking good Jan.  Interesting technique too!

Ernest

[Siara]

I have never seen it done before.
Very interesting idea- ill be watching.

[billp51d]

          Interesting Indeed...!

[Jan]

Thank you guys for your interest!  

I

[bracco_n]

Great work Jan! I've never seen that. By te way, could you post some pictures of that beautiful conning tower you did?

[Pat]

Oh man Jan.  Just when I thought I'd figured out everything I needed to do to finish my build, now you've added another few weeks worth of work!

I'd suspected most of what appears on those websites, but hadn't found proof of it.

Well done BTW!!!

[Jan]

Thank you guys!

@Pat: It is no big deal - you can do it on a long sunday 

@Nicolas: You meant this? 

[Jan]

Hi everybody. I saw a very nice Doku on TV yesterday...you can watch it, too. Go to http://www.n24.de/ (sorry, there is no direct link) and if you scroll a bit downwards you`ll see "Auf Feindfahrt - Angriff der Wolfsrudel". If not, you might find it under "videos"...

Enjoy!

[Jan]

Hello...finally managed to post some pics of my boats latest progress.

Starting with the piping (not yet ON the ph):

[Jan]

Latest progress on deck:


Inlets for main diving tank:


CT-"Interieur":

[Jan]

Forward Torpedo Casing:

[Jan]

Rips:



Hope you like it!

[bracco_n]

Magnificent work my friend! keep it up!

[Jan]

Thank you mate!

Need some help concerning those bowplane cable tensioners please:

When I googled for pics of U-711, I found tons of veeerrry nice ones of U-711s wreck on
http://www.harstad.dk/web/2/.

As you might see on the pic, the bowplane support seems to be very smooth:


Couldn`t find too much pics of tensioners, so don`t know, if there is any kind of big bolt holding them... Plus, if there was a big bolt, it might be hidden by algae and stuff...

So my question is, does the pic allow the conclusion, U-711 did not have those bowplane cable tensioners? What is your opinion?

[Rokket]

Jan, very nice and detailed work!

Tensioners - I can't say, except that a rotting wreck most surely would have eroded evidence...

[Jan]

Thank you for the kind words, rokket!

[Rokket]

waiting for more, but don't rush, coming along so nice

[Jan]

You don`t have to wait for a long time, Wink.  Weather is very bad in Germany, so I hope to make progress soon.

PS: Thank you for quick delivery of the flag. I didn`t expext it to pass the customs border...

[Pat]

Yes, they're great flags, aren't they Jan.

I'd guess the package wasn't inspected that closely, probably just noted that it was "model parts" and decided harmless.

[Rokket]

get to work!


glad you got quickly and went thru OK. Yes, Pat's right, tho it can be hit or miss. So far we've had no rejections (or at least complaints).

[Pat]

Personally, I feel the government is misapplying the intent of the laws regarding WWII regalia.

While a resurrection of the WWII party and regime is something to be avoided, historical accuracy on models is something that shouldn't be part of it.  The use of the item has to be taken into account and museum type displays shouldn't be discouraged.  After all, it IS part of world history and hiding something doesn't make it go away despite what you might hear from any ostriches.

I was quite dismayed when the kit didn't include the proper flag and since historical accuracy is an important part of model making, I went to a lot of trouble to make up my own flag.  Even after all that work, I was overjoyed to get my flags from AMP / Wink and happy to make the switch.  Perhaps if it hadn't been for the shortsightedness of the government on this particular item, I would have had to settle for paper flags from the kit which are inferior for sure compared to the AMP flags.

But then, it wouldn't be the first time that I don't agree with a politician's decision.

[Rokket]

There is such a danger of sterilising and distorting with Political Correctness. I don't want to offend anyone whether it is personal or not, but there are just silly things...like no sports competition in schools so that "everyone can be a winner"...I was a loser in Sport, but it didn't make me warped! I'm short, NOT "height challenged".

Human resources is Personnel, and prisoners are NOT "clients"...rant over

[Pat]

Hmmm, I wonder if was just political correctness then when Dad's Halifax was shot down in 1944, and instead of being a "prisoner", he referred to hi8mself as a "guest" of the Third Reich?

[Jan]

Haha...

But its a good point, Wink. Even though I haven`t thought much about political correctness, I think its like dancing on a wire: On the one hand, in some cases it might be an act of kindness. On the other hand political correctness might be insulting in some other cases. It is like many - in principle - good things, if you overdo it, it turns bad.

[Rokket]

well said Jan

[Pat]

Yes, it is Jan.

However, on a model, I think historical accuracy should trump political correctness.  After all, even a U-boat itself is an acknowledgement of the historical reality of what happened in WWII, so if you're going to admit that they built such machines, you might as well also admit who it was who built them.

It's not agrandizing the political system as much as it's representing the technical schievements of the time.  And yes, also the artistic merit in some of the equipment, U-boats and Spitfires being two of the finest examples.

[Jan]

Yeah...plus I have some "special" plans displaying the flag in a way that is historic and also shows, that I

[Pat]

I sort of look at it not much different than displaying any other flag on a model.  It's a statement of historical accuracy, not politics.

For instance, if I was to build a tall ship model with a white flag and a blue cross, it doesn't mean I'm a sympathizer for Tsarist Russia.  If I put a Tricolour on it, it doesn't mean I'm a Bonapartist.  Nobody would ever question that.

So why do they make a fuss if I put a Kriedgsmarine flag on a U-boat, S-boat, Bismark or Tirpitz model?

[Jan]

Maybe it is difficult to understand for somebody not living in Germany...using this flag here is not just "politically uncorrect"... it is absolutely taboo. Even after more than 65 years. If you go to an official museum here, you won`t find a kriegsmarin ship with this flag. And of course there are no "aeroplane-signs" on Bismarck or the other german capital ships. But for private use, I see the wish to display a historically correct ship - so I think it is ok. And of course I would never put a smiley or a peace sign in place of the swastika!

[dougie47]

Hi gents,

I live in Scotland rather than Germany. But even here there are major issues surrounding displaying the symbol on the Kriegsmarine flag on a model. I wouldn't use the term politically incorrect, it goes much deeper than that.

When we started AMP, Wink and I had to think carefully about whether ot not to produce the KM flag. We are about historical accuracy so we do offer it for sale. But we are uneasy about it and Wink also designed a KM flag with an alternate symbol.

Pat, I agree with you that putting the KM flag on a model is a statement of historical accuracy. And as a modelmaker I would defend your right to portray historical accuracy. But I disagree that it is not much different to displaying other flags on models. The symbol of the KM flag is, to many, an embodiment of the greatest crime in human history.  Some people think the connotations of the symbol (which go way beyond political incorrectness) far outweigh historical accuracy.

Cheers,

Dougie

[rabapla]

I sort of look at it not much different than displaying any other flag on a model.  It's a statement of historical accuracy, not politics.

For instance, if I was to build a tall ship model with a white flag and a blue cross, it doesn't mean I'm a sympathizer for Tsarist Russia.  If I put a Tricolour on it, it doesn't mean I'm a Bonapartist.  Nobody would ever question that.

So why do they make a fuss if I put a Kriedgsmarine flag on a U-boat, S-boat, Bismark or Tirpitz model?

because it's just forbidden...........
everybody is allowed to display a nazi- flag on his model at home, it offends the law in the moment it is displayed publicly.

[Rokket]

Yes, I certainly understand the difference in Germany, and I see my short rant did not really make the distinction - as Dougie did so well - that this particular case is NOT "political correctness" - I hope my brief, hasty words didn't trivialise. But with private use OK in Germany, everything is at least practical for modellers.

Outside of Germany, I do see Pat's point - the flag of whatever country is for the snapshot in time, not to promote that regime/politics. Different of course with Germany and this particular flag, and perhaps some other intense, semi recent topics.