Need help with PE

[bracco_n]

Hello everybody, while navigating the internet I discovered the Griffon PE set for Revell's 1/144 Type VIIC. I'm sure you already knew about it. The fact is that seeing it I decided I want to build one with that beautiful PE. It is said that this is a very difficult PE to work with and experience is needed. While working on U-1023 I used the eduard set without much knoweledge and things turned out acceptably well, maybe because of the scale. But PE on 1/144 must be another thing.
With this post I intend that you experienced modellers could teach me how to work with PE (how to turn it, to cut it properly, hand it, which glues to use, etc.)
Thanks in advance!

[TRM]

Bracco_n,

I think if you had favorable results from using PE on your 1023, you will do just fine.  There is a ton of info (tricks) within this site and on the net. 

CA (Cyanoacrylate) or super glue works really well.  There are different thicknesses and accelerators.  The accelerators are nice with railings and other free standing items.  You can solder some pieces with soldering paste and I have seen white glue used in some applications.

Cutting....a small tile, piece of glass or plexi work exceptionally well as a cutting surface.  A very sharp single edge blade to cut the pieces out.  Extremely small pieces, double over some masking tape and place on the glass...no matter how hard you try or how experienced you may be, there will be that one piece that takes off like a rocket....1mm x 1mm if virtuall impossible to find once launched.

Bending, I found either two staight edge razor blades, one to hold the piece down on the glass and the other slip in under the part to be bent.  Secornd is a small pair of bull nose pliers.  Prefferably one without grooves in the jaws.  Hold tight and bend with a razor.

Hope some of this helps.

Good luck, hope to see some pics!

Cheers!

[Pepper-mint]

Hi Bracco_n,

Is it the torpedo loading Kit ?

Anyway, some of the PE parts you can find in the 1/72 are frequently as "small" as the 1/144 parts. Like TRM, i think you'll do just fine.

Cheers
Pepper

[Pat]

For that 1mm x 1mm piece that "takes off like a rocket", I've found that the best way to find them (other than TRM's idea of the tape that aborts the launch in the first place - good suggestion, wish I'd thought of it) is to use a flashlight.  There always seems to be one tiny piece, no matter how careful you are, that gets away.

Doesn't matter how well lit the room is, if you hold a flashlight horizontally right at the floor level, it will usually cause the piece to cast a shadow.  It's the shadow you look for, not the piece itself and even 1mm will cast a bit of one.

[bracco_n]

I didn't quite understand the bending procedure, could somebody show me some images or direct me to a website that shows this?
Thanks for the input!

[Siara]

Few months ago i bought the tool called "Etchmate".
Here`s the link to the article about it:
Etchmate

[Pepper-mint]

I have the Etchmate too. A "must have" for PE building, brass scratch building and also for styrene sheets...

If you don't want to invest, you can work with 2 sharp edged sheets of plexiglass.

You clamp your PE part between the sheets, the bending zone along the edge of the upper plexi sheet. With a sharp cutter blade you "lift" and bend your PE part to the needed angle. this allows you a 90

[Rokket]

My Mate has an etchmate, loves it

[Mr. Bill]

All of the above is excellent advice for working with PE.  Just a few additional suggestions to consider.

If you make a mistake, it is often possible to salvage the part by carefully flattening it on a hard surface by rolling a smooth cylindrical object over it until it is flat again.  You may have to turn the part over and roll from different directions, but in most cases the part can be restored to new condition.

Another thing to consider is to rough the contact surface of the part up a bit with fine grit sandpaper so that it grips better when cemented in place.  This will also help remove any residual chemicals on the brass that may effect paint adhesion.

Last thing to think about is how to find tiny lost parts.  Go to Wife or Girlfriend and ask to borrow a pair of stockings.  Place the stocking over the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner.  Turn the vacuum on and run it gently around the area of the floor/carpet that you think the part may be.  The missing part (even very tiny ones) can be recovered this way - just be sure to place the nozzle over a container before you turn the vacuum off or the part will be lost again on the floor.   Don't forget to appropriately thank owner of stockings.

Cheers,

Bill

[Pat]

Two excellent ideas Mr. Bill!!!

I've used that method for flattening parts before (also used a palm-sized anvil I've got too) but I never thought of anything as effective as the stocking/vaccuum method for finding small parts.

Thanks for sharing!

[Rokket]

Bill - love the stocking idea!

Also try annealing - This is just making the metal more bendable with heat. Heat preferably on a hotplate or torch, and get it close to glowing, then cool it slowly (not quick chill, or it becomes brittle and less bendable, not more).

There's a great PE intro at www.paragrafix.biz/default.asp - got to www.paragrafix.biz/instructions/Photoetch_Demo_Handout_2009-144dpi.pdf. There are also a lot of great kits there, check them out!

[Pat]

Annealing is a good method, but may not always be possible and definitely takes a while.

I've usually had good luck by just bending the part VERY slowly.  A fast bend tends to be brittle and might develop cracks on the outside edge of the bend point.  Bending slowly usually works.

Also, scribing on the inside of where you you want the bend will help make it easier.  If I have to do that, I use the sharp edge of a triangular or half-circular needle file.  Just a couple of passes is normally enough.

But by all means, do NOT repeatedly bend back and forth as metal fatigue will make the part crack for sure.

[bracco_n]

Hello everybody! Thanks for the many replies!
university is almost over so the modelling season begins tomorrow. I've been checking both U-410 and U-1023 and decided that my skills have to improved. besides I'm dying for building a new boat. that's why I'm buying a 1/144 Type VIIC and if I can afford it a griffon PE set. still haven't decided which boat I'm going to do and what I'll be aiming to, I'll open a thread for that later.
well that's all for now, got to say that even though I don't comment on the threads I'm impressed with what you guys are doing, namely U826, U995, U69 to name a few.
Nicolas

[Pat]

Nicolas, I know what you mean about skills improving.

When I was young and building models, my skills didn't appear to imrove much from one model to the next.  But I've found that the older I get, the faster my skills improve to the point that any model I've built in the last 25 years, I've almost always looked at them when done and realized that I improved enough over the course of just one model that I know I could do it better right away.

In fact, I seldom do a build any more in which I don't rip out something I've done and redo it because I learned something since I started. 

Of course it help now that I'm to a point where I add so much detail that a typical build takes a couple years or more, and I seldom make any part that I don't do a lot of research on and semi-scratch or scratch build everything, so lots of time to learn new things.

[bracco_n]

Hello fellas. At the time I'm gathering information on building and painting techniques for my next build. Today I was checking my painting instruments and realized that an improvement has to be made there. What you are about to read might strike you: I never used primers or thinners, I can't tell the difference between enamels and... other kinds of paints, have two paintbrushes: a big one a and a small one, the paints I use are bought in the art shop two blocks down street and kids at kindergarten might be using the same paints. Never in life have I used oils or ink. As you can see I know nothing and work with low quality materials. tamiya, revell and such paints are very expensive here in argentina if you can find them. thankfully I have a friend who is at the states now and if I buy some stuff he'll bring it over. If you could point out some vital paints that I must have, say those used for metal parts, rust, etc...
Also, could you educate me on the basic use of paints?
I hope I'm not asking too much, I'm eager to learn and improve!

[TRM]

No worries Bracco!

Can't speak for all but I use:

Tamiya Paints -Acrylic -  wide variety, easily accessible and a little healthier to use than enamels and clean up with water.  You can mix your own as well using acrylics found in most paint stores.  Here you would have to play around with what works for you.  Airbrushing you need to cut the paint with thinners (solvents) .  I have tried a number of mixes, alcohol (rubbing), Windex, water....the list goes on.  most acrylic thinners and alcohol based 
Some enamels - Master and testors (rarely) needs a lot of ventalation when spraying and/or painting, Thinner used with these would be paint thinner and/or mineral spirits.  I would stick with the spirits, less smell.
Weathering sets from Tamiya - A, B, C, D, E - google, you tube as well.  excellent effects
oils - any craft store carry these.  small tubes run about $2 USD - Burnt Sienna, black, green, yellow and orange a must....build up the arsenal as you go.  The amount you use in one model is incredibly small.  Check through some of the build within the site, a lot of the guys post pics of what they are using and at what stage.
Brushes - The smallest I use aside from anything homemade is 18/0 up to fan brushes for some dry brushing.  The real tiny brushes are mostly sold in craft stores.  Most come in sets (cheap) at any craft store.  I have even used pins or 28 gauge wire to paint small details.

some tricks to painting the metal parts are:  Always lightly sand the part, helps with adhesion.  Clean well, with acetone or denatured alcohol, point is to remove the grease and oils left behind from your fingers.

Unfortunately all paints and solvents have their individual uses at different times.  However if you can work with the acrylics it will be easier all around.  Most of Tamiya's are spray ready (I think we all cut them a little anyway)

Helpful sites to start!
Great Paint conversion chart!
http://mikeashey.com/
Google search on painting techniques


Google words:  dry brushing, weathering techniques, hair spray techniques, using filters and washes....

I am sure others will chime in with help with some of the other brands of paint and weathering products, there are a lot as well as filters, washes and such.

Good luck!

Cheers!

[bracco_n]

Thank you TRM! I looked up tamiya paints on ebay and they seem to be cheap, could you point out some paint numbers I'll definitely will have to use on my next u boat?
I hope I'm not asking for too much

[TRM]

Dark and light greys, white and some blues.  Most helpful is reading the section in Dougie and Wink's The Wolf Pack: A Collection Of U-Boat Modelling Articles.  The section starting on page 13 is all on U-boat coloring.  Dare I say "definiative".  With a little cross referencing (use the link for the paint conversion chart I posted) you can narrow down the colors.  Next it would be "eye of the beholder".  Test it, lighten or darken depending on what you like.  I made a small chart for myself, which will change, lighter or darker when I get to that point on the U-69.

Coats                                       Tamiya   Revell   Humbrol
Primer Coat                              X-21   32102   1 (enamel)
1st Layer Conning Tower            XF-20   32374   126
1st Layer Below Waterline          XF-63   36076   67
St Nazaire 3rd patrol                 XF-20   32157   145



I plan to do some blending and of course some weathering, chipping and such. The XF-20 seems to be right in the coloring spectrum for most U-boats.  And tint darker or lighter depending on age and such.  Hope it helps some

Cheers!

[Greif]

Hi Bracco, TRM gave you a very good primer on painting and weathering.  I mostly use acrylic paints from Lifecolor, Tamiya and Mister Kit, though I still have quite a few bottles of JPS paints (mostly early war Luftwaffe colors).  About the only non-acrylic paint I use are enamel primer and the Model Master Metalzer paints for simulating metal colors.   As TRM pointed out different paints have different qualities, which make them interesting to use for different jobs.  

Following is the method I use in prepping and painting my models.  First, while the parts are still on their trees or attachment blocks I wash them in warm soapy water; I use dishwashing soap.  The parts are then rinsed and left to dry, or I use a blow dryer on low if I'm in a hurry to start.    After I have finished general construction, to include filling and sanding I take a Q-Tip dipped in rubbing alcohol and carefully go over the entire model to ensure it is clean.  After everything is good and dry, I airbrush two to three light coats of primer on the model.  I think this helps acrylic paints adhere better, but alot of very very good modellers say a primer coat is not needed if you have cleaned the surface well.  The other reason I like to prime, I use either Tamiya or Floquil primer, is that any inperfections show up and can be fixed before you airbrush your base coats.  After the primer has dryed overnight it is on to the base colors.

Tamiya paints airbrush very well, I use Tamiya's X-20A thinner, the ratio depends on the airbrush effect I want to get, set the compressor at 15-20 psi for most jobs and start work.  The downside to Tamiya paints if they don't brush well at all.  And like all acrylics they dry fast, so it is tough to use them for dry brushing.  I think Tamiya paints are the easiest to airbush of any of the acrylics and are a good choice for modellers beginning airbrushing.

More in the next post,
Ernest

[Greif]

I now use mostly Lifecolor paints for both brush jobs and airbrushing.  They are a bit more difficult to use then Tamiya paints, but the color matching and selection are outstanding.  My trick to using them well is keeping the paint/thinner ratio around 80/20, though I do vary it some depending on the effect I want.  I also use an acrylic retarder, this slows the drying time a bit, as these paints dry VERY fast.  I also use Lifecolor's thinner, as I think the paint flows better using it vs distilled water.  Once you get the thinning ratio right and apply it in light coats this paint is very satisfying to use.

Finally, I use the Mister Kit paints for my WWI aircraft builds.  Easy to airbrush, great colors and simple clean up, what more can one ask?!  By the way, I use Windex to clean my airbrush after using any of the above paints.  It works very well; just make sure you use a final spray of distilled water as Windex is ammonia based which can eat away plated metal after a -long- period of time.

A note on airbrushes, get the best one(s) you can afford.  I like top feed airbrushes as one can spray at slightly lower air pressure then bottom feed brushes.  However, bottom feed airbrushes also work just fine and are very good for large spraying jobs - like the Revell 1/72 scale Uboot hull.    If you ask 10 modellers what the best brand and style of airbrush to buy, you will probably get at least seven different answers.  Badger, Iwata and Paasche all sell excellent airbrushes, many of them at very good prices.  If you have more specific questions please feel free to ask; I'm sure many of us can guide you in the right direction to finding your first airbrush.

More Follows,

Ernest   

[Greif]

Ok, on to air compressors.  I'll cut to the chase here, I have a good simple compressor, that has what you need to airbrush effectively, that has been my spare compressor for several years now.  It has seen very little use in the past few years, and is still in top condition.  I know how it is to be a student, so if you are interested, let's see how much shipping will be to Argentina and that is what you can have the compressor for.  PM me and we can hammer out the details.

Different modellers use different air pressures for airbrushing, though I think most guys use the 15-20 psi range for most jobs.  The only time I go out of that range is when I spray Luftwaffe mottled camo schemes, then I use very, very thin paint at around 5 psi.  Takes alot of practice, but once you have mastered the technique, you can get some awesome camo jobs.

Brush painting, about the only time I brush paint is to do details, figures or weathering.  As with the airbrush, get the best brushes you can afford.  A set of Winsor&Newton Series 7 brushes in 2, 1, 0, 00, and 000 will last you many years if properly taken care of. A few broad and brushes about 2.5, 5, 10 and 15mm in width, and a couple of 3, 4, and 5 pointed brushes, they need not be expensive, well complete your brush arsenal; though I'm sure that as you get older and wealthier you will tend to collect modelling tools and end up with quite a few brushes.

Thats about all I have to add, probably 10 cents rather then 2, but I hope it has been helpful.

Sincerely,
Ernest      

[bracco_n]

Ernest! Thank you so much for that great explanation! As a matter of fact, I do own an airbrush I bought some years ago. The problem is that I never managed to get an air compressor and that's why I kept using my common paintbrush.
Here it is:



Your offer is most generous! I'll check with the mail service how much it would cost, could you tell me it's dimensions?
I've been checking ebay and this what I have in the cart so far:
Tamiya flat brown and black
Tamiya weathering set C
Model master 1728 (hellgrau 50) and 1721 (dunkelgrau 51) (I already have schiffsbordenfarbe 111 grau)

Would it be enough to paint a u boat?

[Greif]

Hi Bracco, the airbrush should work just fine.  The compressor box is 32cm long, 25cm high and 17cm wide.  It weighs about 6 Kg.  I just looked at the United States Postal Service standard rate, and it came to $72.00 for a package that size and weight.  Unfortunately, it is just a bit too big to use one of the USPS Flat Rate boxes that is a little cheaper.

Still, it is alot cheaper to use USPS then any of the European mail carriers.  Send me a PM and we can talk about ways to break the cost down.

Sincerely,
Ernest

[Greif]

Forgot to answer you paint question.  Enough depends on how much paint is in the bottle.  Normally it takes me about 15-17 ml for the lower hull, and about 25% of that for the upper hull and conning tower.  The weathering set B will work just fine, I have it and have used the set for both my U3 and U228 builds.  You can also take a look at some cheap artists chalk, which is also very handy for weathering.  I can give you some tips on its use and a few more concerning painting if you like.

Cheers,
Ernest

[bracco_n]

Ernest, thanks for the input! I know it must be annoying to have a youngster asking so many basic questions in a pro forum!
There's one thing I'd like you to educate me on: oils, filters and washes. never used them and definitely want to use them in my next model, could you teach me on the subject?

[Greif]

Your questions are not annoying at all, I'm glad to help.  I admit up front that my skills at weathering are not as good as some the other modellers on this site.  But I can give you some tips that will be helpful in getting you started.

Filters:  Used on MATT finishes to slightly alter the color tone of paint.  Filters are mostly used to simulate the uneven fading of surfaces exposed to the elements.  To use them take an old medium-sized round tipped brush dip it into a well mixed bottle of filter medium, wipe the excess off on a clean cloth until the brush is damp.  Carefully, brush the surface you are applying the filter to until it is completely and evenly covered.  Make sure to remove any excess color in crevasses or around objects and let dry.  The more layers you apply the stronger the effect.  After three or four layers, if you apply that many, you will see the part was a satin finish which makes it perfect for applying a wash.  Filters are pretty easy to use and with a little practice you can get some striking effects.  MIG Productions makes some nice pre-mixed filters and there are a few other companies that make them also.

Washes:  Used on SATIN or GLOSS finishes to simulate shadows and highlight detail.  Washes work best on smooth glossy surfaces.  You can use either a premixed wash, such as produced by WarPigs, or mix your own by added a few drops of paint to the correct kind of thinner.  The technique is the same for all types of washes.  Using a small old pointed brush, dip it into the wash and apply it where corners or angles are formed, or around both raised or sunken details.  Be careful to apply the wash only to areas that either have natural shadows at full scale or where you want to highlight details.  After the wash has dried to can touch up any "overflow" areas lightly wiping the area with a Q-Tip dipped in the right kind of thinner for the medium used. 

More follows,
Ernest         

Ernest, thanks for the input! I know it must be annoying to have a youngster asking so many basic questions in a pro forum!
There's one thing I'd like you to educate me on: oils, filters and washes. never used them and definitely want to use them in my next model, could you teach me on the subject?

[Greif]

Before continuing with washes, I need to explain something I should have explained earlier.  After the base color(s) has/have cured for 24-48 hours I either airbrush or brush 2-3 coats of Future floor polish onto the model.  If spraying, the first coat is fairly light.  Let dry 10-15 minutes and spray a heavier coat on the model, take care to avoid too much build up to prevent sags or runs - same as paint.  The last coat is thinned 50/50 with Windex.  This is sometimes called a "Flash Coat" and has a very nice "leveling" effect.  Let dry 24 hours, then apply decals, folowed by a last coat of Future to seal everything.  Future is great because it is self-leveling and mistakes are easily corrected with a little windex followed by reapplying Future.

After I have done the above, if a plan to use a filter, I spray the entire model with a matt coat - I use Vallejo - but most any top brand works well.  After applying the filter and I'm satisfied with the effect.  I spray the model with Future again, this time two coats.  I do the wash next and after I'm happy with the results dry-brush the details and corners to bring them out and provide depth.  Finally the model is again sprayed with a matt coat to tone it down and blend everything.  Believe me, it is not as hard or involved as it sounds, and the end result is well worth the time spent.

Ok, a bit more about washes.  I recommend you buy pre-mixed washes, one bottle each of black, brown and grey will last you many many models, if you plan to use a water or acrylic based wash.  The pre-mixed washes flow much better then water/acrylic based home mixed washes.  If you choose to make your own add 2-3 drops of dishwashing fluid like Dawn to the mix.  It will break up the surface tension and help the wash flow better.  If you use and oil or enamel based wash use a "soft" thinner like Turpinoid; it will not attack your gloss surface. 

More follows,
Ernest

   

[bracco_n]

Ernest thanks again. I checked Mig washes and the price is good, but the description says it must be used on acrylic paints and I was planning to use testors paints on my next boat. Do tamiya paints have correspondence with those from testors. another question, are oils the same as washes?

[Greif]

Hi Bracco, good on you for checking the correct paints the Mig washes can be used on.  Tamiya does not have a specific colors that match RAL uboot colors.  You can get pretty close though, and because you are going to be simulating a weathered uboot with faded and rust-streaked paint, pretty close is plenty good enough.

For the lower hull Schiffsbodenfarbe III:  XF-24 Dark Grey mixed with XF-1 Flat Black at a 70:30 ratio. 

Upper hull/conning tower DKM 50 Hellgrau:  XF 54 Dark Sea Grey mixed with XF-2 Flat White at about 75:25 to 70:30 ratio.

Upper Hull/conning tower DKM 51 Dunkelgrau:  XF 54 Dark Sea Grey mixed with XF-2 Flat White at a 90:10 to 85:15 ratio.

Wooden deck and slats:  XF-69 NATO Black mixed with XF-64 Red Brown at an 80:20 ratio.  The more worn the deck the more XF-64 you want in the ratio.

Another thing a should have mentioned right up front, when airbrushing wear a mask the has a filter for safety.

Ernest

   

Ernest thanks again. I checked Mig washes and the price is good, but the description says it must be used on acrylic paints and I was planning to use testors paints on my next boat. Do tamiya paints have correspondence with those from testors. another question, are oils the same as washes?

[Rokket]

Greif is giving you (and us!) excellent info and advice.

This might be helpful: http://www.rokket.biz/models/modelsweb/rokket/u557/paint.shtml

Tamiya Acrylic Equivalents

These are rough equivalents thanks to Urban