Author Topic: Corrections to 05133 kit to accurately make U-190 (Read 13743 times)

GlennCauley · « **on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 07:25 »

Hi all,

I thought I would veer off into another thread for easier discussion.
My intent here is to get detailed pictures and/or descriptions of what mods to make to the new 05133 kit to make an accurate U-190... no other boat.

Some of the things mentioned in other threads are helpful, but not detailed enough and are working on the assumption we all know the names of the different things.
I'll play the dummy here... I need clear descriptions, pictures, etc. to show me what to do, and what certain things are.

There are pics of Tehnoart U-525 on their website which may have pics of missing items.
Note again... I am NOT interested in U-525, just U-190... but if there are pics of items on U-525 that are helpful please do mention them.

Here are some of the things that have been discussed about the U-190 boat... let's get started?

Liferaft containers on the tower... yes/no? If yes, where? how many? low/high hatches? shield around them or not?
Liferaft containers on the foredeck... yes/no? If yes, where? how many? low/high hatches?
Standard compass housing at front of tower... a rounded nose attached to tower... is that correct?
Missing gun shields on the 20mm gun on the tower upper deck... the shields with uneven height
Did U-190 have single or double-barrel 20mm guns on upper deck?
Missing cap on 37mm spare barrel tube (starboard side, lower)

GlennCauley · « **Reply #1 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 07:33 »

Liferaft containers on tower:
Kit instructions show ammo containers (?) on lower wintergarten: 3 port, 2 stbd, shield walls
Is this correct? or should only be 2 port ammo containers?
Do liferaft containers go here? how many per side, location?

GlennCauley · « **Reply #2 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 07:35 »

Liferaft containers on foredeck:

Did U-190 have 4 liferaft containers on the port foredeck, similar to that shown on Tehnoart's U-525 ?

GlennCauley · « **Reply #3 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 07:37 »

Compass housing at front of tower:

The kit has a 'standard' compass housing at the front of the tower... essentially a connected rounded 'nose.'
Is this correct for U-190?

GlennCauley · « **Reply #4 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 07:41 »

20mm gun shields:

Currently: 20mm guns on upper tower deck do not have shields on them.

Did U-190 have these shields on their two 20mm guns on the upper tower deck, similar to pic below?
Did both guns have 2 barrels?

SG · « **Reply #5 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 08:02 »

Glenn, a few answers:
a) Yes, old style compass housing as you may see below.
b) No watertight liferaft containers on the foredeck
c) Yes, shields for the aa guns, actually it looks like only the starboard gun had the shield (but the port shield might have been removed after surrendering, just like the 2cm gun barrels): http://webberswarships.ca/styled-25/files/u-190-1945a.png and http://webberswarships.ca/styled-24/files/u-889-along-side-u-190.png (U190 in the foreground), https://legionmagazine.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/WWII-6.jpg
d) Yes, both the 2cm guns were twin-barreled
e) No extra 4 hatches on the bandstand (lower platform) but what looks like 4 compressed-air containers on the bandstand deck at the base of the wintergarten (upper platform) (see the linked-pics).
Some nice pictures: http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cdobie/bowie-uboats.htm (the "unidentified boat being brought alongside" is in fact U 190 as you can see from the boat emblem on the turret side)
Cheers,
SG

GlennCauley · « **Reply #6 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 08:41 »

Thanks, SG !

Some things I noticed from those pictures (assuming in the 2nd pic that U-190 is in the foreground):

lower wintergarten tall shielded ammo containers: 3 on STBD, 2 on PORT (opposite to what kit has)
rear of tower: circular hatch on lower stbd side, sticking out perpendicular to tower... is that on port side, too?
upper tower: flat seats on the middle railings (4 per side?)
upper tower rear railing: railing at back of upper tower has different parts than kit... flagpole connected differently... triangular railing around flagpole, and a straight rail extension pointing rearward
missing overhead railing (part 177) ahead of rear 37mm cannon

SG · « **Reply #7 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 09:04 »

Some more (very nice ) pictures: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-190A/U-190Photos.htm
Curiously the 2 cm guns retained only one barrel each before being stripped off of any barrel.
Most of your assumptions are correct, unfortunately I can't verify the ones about kit parts because i don't have the kit.
Am hunting for pics showing the port side of the after-turret to see if that watertight container was also present on the port side (http://webberswarships.ca/styled-5/files/screen-shot-2013-07-06-at-9.18.20-pm.png :too far to see something

), tried also with U 190 sister-boats but had no success.

GlennCauley · « **Reply #8 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 09:42 »

Looking at the pics you provided, the lower tower extra container was a liferaft... seemingly on stbd side only.

SG · « **Reply #9 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 10:03 »

Glenn am 90% with you. The 10% doubt was arised by this picture: http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/images/u190_canada.jpg
The detal is too small to draw a definitive conclusion. I am wondering if there was enough space to fit the turret side at that level with two life-raft containers lying on their longer axis, facing each-other. I am gonna need a bigger boat

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #10 on:** 05 Dec , 2015, 10:38 »

Hi All,

As has been mentioned previously.

Firstly there was a life raft container on the starboard aft side of the lower platform, no containers on the fore deck.
there were 2 3.7cm spare barrel containers, one port side aft below the lower tower (only the end is visible in some photos), the second one is fitted to the port side under the upper platform, a mirror image of the one fitted to the U 505.
The compass housing is the old style.

Now here is the cautionary bit that I have yet to fully work out.

Shortly after surrender the upper platform guns and mounts were removed. I have a picture which may have been taken during this time with the starboard mount fitted with a shield and appears to be a twin mount. It would be natural to assume that the port side gun would be the same, although I have no photographic prove of such. Also with the final sailing date of 19/02/45 the upper deck should have 2 twin 2cms fitted

Any photos that show upper platform deck guns with the U 190 with fresh paint would have been taken after the guns were refitted and thus may not have been the U 190's guns, just a convenient item to fill the space, much like the type VII periscopes that graced the U 505 until the original ones were located.

Regards
Jon

GlennCauley · « **Reply #11 on:** 06 Dec , 2015, 07:43 »

Quote from: Capt Kremin on 05 Dec , 2015, 10:38

There were 2 3.7cm spare barrel containers, one port side aft below the lower tower (only the end is visible in some photos), the second one is fitted to the port side under the upper platform, a mirror image of the one fitted to the U 505. Regards, Jon

Thanks, Jon! Are there pictures showing BOTH spare barrel containers, so I can do them properly?

Capn Tucker · « **Reply #12 on:** 06 Dec , 2015, 10:55 »

Just an FYI, none of the containers on the aft conning tower deck are for life rafts. They are all ready-use ammo storage for the 37mm AA gun.
The extra ones seen on the U 525 kit were just that; extra storage for the 37mm..

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #13 on:** 06 Dec , 2015, 11:48 »

Hi Glenn,

Yes they are both visible although only the end of the port aft container protrudes from under the lower platform.

Picture 2A shows the port 3.7cm barrel container, 2 ready ammo lockers, port upper platform 2cm mount with left gun only and no shield. Boat has been painted since surrender.

Picture 4A shows port aft tip of 3.7cm barrel container, starboard aft life boat container, M42 twin 3.7cm with LM42U mount on lower platform along with 2-3 ready ammo lockers and starboard upper platform 2cm mount with shield and no guns, 1 ready ammo locker centre aft of upper platform with no protective plating on the side, picture taken after surrender, before repaint.

Still looking for a decent picture of the lower platform from above to confirm 2-4 life boat containers as fitted to U 534 see wintergarten 6, and yes the U 534 had 4 ready ammo lockers with rounded side protection and like U 190 an unprotected ammo locker on the upper platform.

Regards
Jon

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #14 on:** 06 Dec , 2015, 12:09 »

Hi again,

Just found this picture, no lifeboat containers on the lower deck at all, lots of clutter on the upper platform but I think the starboard 2cm mount is fitted, wouldn't like to comment on the port gun. 4 bulbous itrms just centre aft of the upper platform, on the lower platform are not part of the boat. The end of the port 3.7cm barrel container seem to protrude quite a distance from the upper platform.
Again picture taken after repaint

Regards
Jon

dougie47 · « **Reply #15 on:** 06 Dec , 2015, 16:13 »

Hello all,

This isn't about corrections but is related because it is about paint colours of U 190.

Photos show the paint on the upper hull was very badly peeling from the tower of U 190 when it surrendered in Canada. The KM had a real problem with paint adhesion on IX towers and there are others in 1944 and 1945 with the same peeling problem. Note that the paint did not peel from the snort pipe or 37mm shield as they were different types of metal.

Due to the poor condition of the paint on the tower, U 190 was repainted in Canadian colours. When I was researching my paint colour article over a decade ago, a researcher kindly took photographs of artifacts belonging to U 190 at the Maritime Command Museum in Halifax. These artifacts had both the original KM paint and the Canadian light grey used upon U 190. The researcher was thoughtful enough to take photos of these artifacts beside Snyder & Short Kriegsmarine paint cards to allow for proper comparison. The photos show that the Canadian light grey is very similar to RAL7038 (not actually RAL7038 as the paint is Canadian rather than German). When I cross-referenced my RAL7038 colour card with my Federal Standard fandeck it appear that this colour is close to FS36492. That is the colour which I reckon should be used if you are modelling U 190 after repaint. Note that Xtracolour X147 is this colour.

I can't help with the lower hull colour. I presume that U 190 was repainted in dry-dock and that the lower hull was painted by Canadian workmen. But what colour they used is a mystery to me.

Cheers,

Dougie

GlennCauley · « **Reply #16 on:** 06 Dec , 2015, 17:08 »

Thank you, Dougie... that is very worthwhile information indeed. Colours info is always required.

I wonder if they painted a thick black bootline, and red bottom? ( *snicker* sorry, couldn't resist )

Wondering if there is a good colour reference for the paints used by Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) to indicate what colours they might have painted subs below waterline.

dougie47 · « **Reply #17 on:** 07 Dec , 2015, 15:38 »

Hi Glenn,

My guess for the lower hull would be black.

I'm not sure whether U 190 was painted in St John's or Halifax, my guess would be Halifax, but both were, I think, used as a base for RCN Flower class corvettes. The RCN corvettes used Royal Navy camouflage colours such as RN Western Approaches camouflage. The lower hull colour of RCN corvettes is debatable. Some may have been RN anti-fouling red (without a black bootline) but there was definitely some (probably the majority) that had black lower hulls.

I don't think the RCN had their own submarines in WWII so there may not have been a precedent to rely upon when painting U 190. When the yard in Halifax(?) painted U 190 I am guessing they might have used the same colours as they used on RCN corvettes. When it came to the lower hull, maybe they used the same colour (black) that they were used to applying to the lower hull of corvettes.

There is one photo after painting of U 190 in the water which shows a little bit of the lower hull paint. There's nothing that can be determined from that photo other than it looks very dark (or black).

Cheers,

Dougie

GlennCauley · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Dec , 2015, 08:49 »

Quote from: GlennCauley on 05 Dec , 2015, 07:33

Liferaft containers on tower:
Kit instructions show ammo containers (?) on lower wintergarten: 3 port, 2 stbd, shield walls
Is this correct? or should only be 2 port ammo containers?
Do liferaft containers go here? how many per side, location?

UPDATE 10-Dec-2015

Ammo lockers on wintergarten deck:

2 lockers on PORT side (not 3)
3 lockers on STBD side (not 2)
(Revell used tower from U-505 kit, but U-190 had the deck ammo lockers swapped)
Single ammo locker at rear middle of upper deck (behind the twin 20mm guns) did not have a shield around it.

Liferaft lockers:

No liferaft lockers on wintergarten deck.
No liferaft lockers on foredeck.
Must add prominent lateral liferaft locker hatch on bottom rear of wintergarten tower... sticks out perpendicular to tower (boat centerline) on STBD side only.

GlennCauley · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Dec , 2015, 08:14 »

It's nice to have friends around the world who are willing to help out a modelling brother.

Thanks to them, I have PE sets on the way for U-190... including a wintergarten deck with swapped ammo locker positions. Woot woot!

SG · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Dec , 2015, 08:19 »

Well done Glenn! .. and don't forget the 4 pressurized-air cylinders on the lower wintergarten!

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Dec , 2015, 13:21 »

Hi Glenn, SG et al,

A couple of more pictures for you, the first is the U 190 and U 889 at Halifax, good view of the wintergarten highlighting the tops of the hydrogen tanks and the 3 ready ammo lockers on the starboard side. As for the upper platform guns, remember that they were removed before painting and so the mounts and shields may not be the originals.

Secondly a poster advertising the display of the U 190 at Sutherland Pier, Montreal from the 28th July (45?). It is posible that someone may have taken photos of her at the time. Possibly even colour photos, whilst the colours would be wrong for the wartime boat, maybe a local call for photos, I'm looking at Glenn for that, at least you are in the right country, it might make an interesting model in post war colours and could make a partner for Glenn's U 505.

Third attachment is a map locating Sutherland Pier, I believe it has changed names since 1945.

Regards
Jon

SG · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Dec , 2015, 15:56 »

Good catch Jon! I was already familiar with the top photo, thats where i had seen the 4 hydrogen containers mistakenly identified as compressed air cylinders. Were they supplying the hydrogen for the aphrodite device?

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #23 on:** 18 Dec , 2015, 17:28 »

Hi SG et al

The primary use for hydrogen on the type IX boats was for met balloons, however the U 190 would have carried and probably used aphrodite.

regards
Jon

GlennCauley · « **Reply #24 on:** 08 Jan , 2016, 08:35 »

I think I have most of what I need to actually begin this build. Mwah haa haaaaaaaa
Sadly, I have more of a personal interest in building this boat than my already-started U-505 project. (Don't Kill Me.)

One thing I am perplexed about... with the advances in slide mold technology, why could Revell not mold the Balcongerat as 1 piece?!?!? It is in 3 pieces, and to fill & sand the seams will require sanding off all the detector nubs. I drilled out the nubs near the seams, and will replace them with 0.040" rod. But what a PITA.

Luckily 3 of the 4 sections of my U-505 inner pressure hull will work on U-190. The forward inner bulkhead & hull are different. Not too bad.

I have also re-assessed my earlier plans to make support structures for the PE deck sections. I will greatly simplify them, and NOT 'swiss cheese' the base plates with drainage holes.
Why? The holes will never been seen, and having the support plate intact will make it much sturdier.

The drainage holes seemed like a good idea in theory, but in practice would greatly tax my building skills & patience, with little pay off. (Frankly, this is what stalled my U-505 build.)
So I will make 0.030" support plates using the OEM deck as a template, and will add support ribs beneath the PE deck to raise it to the proper height.

Capn Tucker · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 Jan , 2016, 20:48 »

Revell probably has plans to release either a U-505 (early) or just an early Type IXC at some point. Likely that kit will have a keel insert to replace the Balkon G. That way they only have to make one set of hull halves for both early and late IXCs..

GlennCauley · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 Jan , 2016, 09:12 »

Rather than overthink the whole process of how to mount the PE deck, I dove right in and actually started to work with the pieces.
I soon realized that simple methods are much easier & less stressful than the overly-complicated ways I had tried to plan out.
Amazingly, I was able to make some quick progress and actually completed 1 deck section rather quickly.

Using 0.030" styrene, I made baseplates that matched the kit deck... and it's a LONG deck.
There was lots of tracing, scribing, and sanding to make baseplates that fit the hull, and match the PE decks that sit atop of them.
After cutting a PE deck section from the sheet (and trimming to size), I used CA to glue 'ribs" underneath the PE deck to raise it off the baseplate to the proper height. Careful placement of the ribs was necessary to ensure they were not visible through the holes/gap in the PE deck. For the riser ribs, I used Evergreen #8204 HO scale 2x4 (0.022" thick, 0.043" high).
The deck "sandwiches" would bring the PE deck to the proper height in the hulls. Bazinga!

Then I had to take the plunge and start cutting up the kit deck... aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!

I needed to cut out the schnorkel well, and also the 2 torpedo storage tube bulges on the rear deck.

No turning back now!

OldNoob · « **Reply #27 on:** 17 Jan , 2016, 00:44 »

That looks great Glen!

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #28 on:** 17 Jan , 2016, 11:18 »

Hi Glenn,

Hate to tell you this the torpedo storage tube bulges are the exhaust silencer covers the torpedo storage area was between the torpedo trolley rails, see attached.

The under deck torpedo stage area ceased to be used during 1944, the time period seems to vary widely depending on the individual boat.

Regards
Jon

GlennCauley · « **Reply #29 on:** 17 Jan , 2016, 18:12 »

No needing to hate telling me that... good to know!

GlennCauley · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 Jan , 2016, 14:13 »

The U-190 build site is now live at:

http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/

OldNoob · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 Jan , 2016, 23:19 »

NICE! Love your builds!

GlennCauley · « **Reply #32 on:** 22 Jan , 2016, 18:39 »

Quote from: SG on 05 Dec , 2015, 08:02

d) Yes, both the 2cm guns were twin-barreled

Hmmm...
Are there pics showing the boat had 2x TWIN-barrel guns?

There are archive photos on www.uboatarchive.net that show the upper tower guns as SINGLE barrel Flak C/38 on L 30/37 mounts:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-190A/U-190Photos.htm
(near bottom)

Not knowing a lot about these things.. are there good photos or illustrations to show me how to modify the kit guns properly?

SG · « **Reply #33 on:** 24 Jan , 2016, 09:26 »

Glenn, pictures 2,3,7 from http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-190A/U-190Photos.htm show:
a) the shield of the starboard AA gun which was meant for a twin gun mount (pictures 2 and 7)
b) the mount for the port MGs, an M-43 U zwilling (twin) mount for the coupled AA guns (picture 3 + this picture: http://webberswarships.ca/styled-24/files/u-889-along-side-u-190.png).
In the other pictures from the same web page you can notice that, for reasons that I ignore, the boat only sports one of the two C30 (or most likely C38s) on the gun mounts: we can speculate that half of the guns were dismounted after the armistice (they were later removed completely), but of course on the basis of the available pictures we can't have the certainty the U-boat had been originally fitted with only one of the two guns per mount. I am pretty sure that if the boat was in her standard configuration before surrendering, both mounts would sport 2 MG C /38s each.
By the way, are you going to represent the boat on her service days before the armistice or after the VE-day?

GlennCauley · « **Reply #34 on:** 24 Jan , 2016, 10:00 »

Hi SG,

Likely I will show the boat as it was surrendered... I like the pic of the RCN crew putting both flags on the periscope and may try to mimic that.
But ultimately I think I will go with your reasoning... that both barrels were on each gun at that time. In thinking about it more, there was no reason both wouldn't be there in operation.
Ahhhhh yes, the problem faced is one of timing... there are no specific dates on these photos.
Thanks for the clear thinking.

Capt Kremin · « **Reply #35 on:** 24 Jan , 2016, 12:02 »

Hi Glenn,

Yes even pictures with dates marked on them can be misleading, I have a collection of photos with dates on them, on further inspection the dates are of that particular boats sinking not when the photo was taken.
I see no reason as to the U190 not having 2 2cm guns on each mount, event if one had failed during the patrol it would have been left there. I have yet to find an in service picture of a boat with different shields on each mount, but that doesn't mean that such a beast doesn't exist.

Regards
Jon

GlennCauley · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 Jan , 2016, 07:17 »

This really calls into question the things that I want to do with my build.

Like... pics show the protective "rollcage" above the twin 3,7cm cannon... is not there. Only a small bar near the flagstaff is shown.
So what did it look like on the day of surrender... was it there?

<le sigh>

GlennCauley · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 Jan , 2016, 10:02 »

Just when I thought I had a handle on the whole "schnorkel well" thing... a new twist turns up!

The schnorkel well included in the Revell kit is quite simple... it's a big 5-sided box with an open top, some big ribs, and an area for the pivot.
The RC Subs detail set includes some fine details for the well.

I reviewed the kit instructions & PE set instructions.
From reviewing the instructions and a picture of the schnorkel well, I determined the following:

Right-hand outboard well wall (kit part #204) will NOT be put in place, rather some PE ribs will be put in place on the right-hand side.
The lower 'ledge' on which the RH ribs (S1, S2) sit is right above the hull main flood holes... but the bottom of the well is below the hull main flooding holes.
There is no picture of the left side of the well (inboard), so I do not know what it looks like, or if it is even there. The PE set instructions seem to indicate there is no wall there.
The pivot areas MUST remain in place

This raises several questions on how to construct the schnorkel well. I have a feeling it will end up being a skeletal structure since water had to flow through there.

GlennCauley · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Jan , 2016, 13:25 »

I'm DONE with all this ribbing!!! aaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh

Of course I mean the ribbing on my deck sandwich...

There is a method to my madness:
http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/files/Graphic1.pdf

SG · « **Reply #39 on:** 29 Jan , 2016, 05:53 »

Worth the effort Glenn, well done!

GlennCauley · « **Reply #40 on:** 01 Feb , 2016, 07:58 »

I made some good progress on the U-190 schnorkel well in the past few days.
There is a lot of cutting & scratchbuilding, and PE details.
Hopefully the results will be worth the achy shoulders & achy brain.

Updated my U-190 build site: http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/

GlennCauley · « **Reply #41 on:** 02 Feb , 2016, 07:24 »

More progress on schnorkel well.

added lengthwise stiffener to LH well assembly to prevent warpage (0.040 x 0.156" strip styrene)
opened main flooding channels near schnorkel well (since I would not be able to do that after I started adding PE details, etc.)
Instead of thinning the plastic from behind (which would have destroyed the bottom edge of the channel), instead I used a high-speed cutting wheel from the outside, then sanded the channel to shape. The result: clean-looking open flooding channel, preserved inner bottom edge.
Shaped & modified the RH (outboard) schnorkel pivot. I opened many of the holes, and then added styrene pieces (bottom floor of channel to bridge gap between hull & pivot, and 2 thin vertical ribs in line with rivet rows)

GlennCauley · « **Reply #42 on:** 10 Feb , 2016, 10:19 »

Added RH ribs to schnorkel well... all 15 of them (two PE parts apiece).

Remaining:

add small baffle plates in flooding channels (0.010" styrene)
complete the pivot area
add piping components inboard of schnorkel well well... since that inboard wall is open & everything behind it is viewable

GlennCauley · « **Reply #43 on:** 16 Feb , 2016, 10:49 »

I have completed the construction of the schnorkel well... <WHEW!>

Completed the pivot area, shimmed it so the deck mates with it properly.
http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/images/Well_pivot.png

Added L-channel support bracket along outer ribs, aligned to support retracted schnorkel.
http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/images/Well_L_channel.png

Added large piping inside of inner ribs, to mimic likely structures (also to block the empty spaces between inner ribs).
http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/images/Well_piping.png

Added 0.010" baffle plates within main flooding channels (2 baffles apiece).
http://gc-scalemodels.ca/U190/images/Well_baffles.png

GlennCauley · « **Reply #44 on:** 22 Feb , 2016, 13:10 »

Started to add PE flood hole templates to the hull.
using SRS-1450 Flood Holes & Baffle Plates
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.882459185184484.1073741917.532617290168677&type=3