Author Topic: Type VIIc/41 is here (Read 5841 times)

pumpjet · « **on:** 11 May , 2015, 19:32 »

Hey guys.... a big box arrived from Germany today. WooHoo!!! the Atlantic u-boat.

Can you help me out. I am looking at an early version without that snorkel thingy. But I want to put a quad flak on the wintergarten. Any clue as to what boats had this config?

Thanks

Bob

Future projects
Amati Type VIIb Tons of brass
ROG Type VIIc Pontos update kit plus too many things I am overwhelmed to see straight.
ROG Type VIIc/41
Plus every aftermarket add-on out there x 2. Even the Warhammer corrected sail kit. Every thing is pristine condition. Nautilus decks, 2 versions.

Anakin · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 May , 2015, 07:40 »

Hi.

Sounds like you have a lot of work to do! That Amati VIIB can be a really pain in the ass... I used a RoG VIIC hull for my B. Not 100% correct but i´m ok with that. The brass railings are also quite poor comparing to the price of the kit IMO.

Where did you find the warhammer ct? Must have been expensive! I bought a resin VIIC CT from HP-Models.

-Anakin-

GlennCauley · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 May , 2015, 08:31 »

Check out Nautilus Models for their different decks for the VIIC and VIIC/41 boats. He has a variety for planked/slotted decks, fixed schnorkel, no schnorkel, etc.
What boat had a rear Flakvierling? Hmmmmm....... good question.

(I know U-673 "Flak Trap" did, but that is a lot of work to make that boat.)

pumpjet · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 May , 2015, 11:21 »

Hello Gents

I got the Warhammer upgrade for nothing.... I traded a set of type VIIc plans for them when Warhammer was selling them.
I got the HP-Models upgrade set also. When the ROG type VIIc came out I went nuts getting everything. Got the Nautalus conversion set for an early Turm and 2 wood decks. Oh what to do???
Thing is, I never used any parts. I got into the collector mode back then. Now I am on disability for ever
from a deteriorating disc issue I have so much stuff staring me in the eye. I even have the Japanese scopes when they were being sold. Shatton brass torpedo's are simply beautifully turned brass. Nothing comes close to them.
I even snagged a never seen before photo album on type VIIc's on CD from a gent in Germany.
The hunt is fun, keeps the ol' brain in tune.

On top of this. I am working on a 1:200 scale IJN Nagato from Voyage when they were selling through Hobby Easy. With all this time on my hands I hunt and hunt and hunt.

The Nagato started this obsession too. But friends I have in Japan are building the same model, build log on line too. Same scale but museum quality. Now these days parts for the BB are done by 3D printing. Yeah.. I have massive amounts of those printed parts too.

Now I know that building models and mental illness go hand in hand. I should know, having advanced modelers syndrome. HA HA!!!!!!

I think I will dig out that CD for a gander of what is on it after all these years.

Bob "The Hunter"

dougie47 · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 May , 2015, 14:16 »

Hi Bob,

Okay, so you have the Atlantic kit which is outfitted with a planked deck, snort, Turm IV and 37mm on the lower platform. And you want to convert to a boat with no snort, Turm IV and a Vierling on the lower platform.

There will have been quite a few VIICs which had the Vierling and Turm IV around the summer and autumn of 1943. All VIICs which went on war patrol at this time should have had the Vierling but there aren't many photos of boats in this short time period (possibly because a lot of boats didn't make it back to port).

I would recommend U 596 because at one point this boat had a Turm IV, Vierling, FuMO 30 box and no snort. It also had a very cool Med camo scheme.

One issue you need to consider is the deck. Most of the boats (including U 596) which had Turm IV and Vierling also had the slotted deck. You could solve this by adding an aftermarket VIIC slotted deck to your model. This replacement would have no space for the snort, which solves the snort issue for you.

It is possible for there to have been a few VIIC/41s which had the combination of planked deck, no snort and the Vierling but I can't recall seeing photos of any. It might be best to avoid the planked deck unless anybody can find a photo of a boat with this combination.

If you need photos of U 596 drop me a PM with your email address and I will send.

Cheers,

Dougie

uboatfan · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 May , 2015, 14:45 »

Hello Dougie, hello Bob,

U 596 is a Type VII C, not C/41. Build 1940 at B&V Hamburg.
Or i am wrong?
U 223 is another VII C with Turm IV, the quad, old style deck and no snorkel. Pictures of that sub are at UIF 8 and 12.
U 339 the same (UIF 11)

Regards

Uboatfan

dougie47 · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 May , 2015, 15:28 »

Hi Uboatfan,

That's right, U 596 is a VIIC. But in terms of the main hull, at least to my eyes, I can't see many external differences in the hulls between VIICs and VIIC/41s. There is the Atlantic bow fitted to VIIC/41s but this bow was I think retrofitted to VIICs as well. So I reckon one could use the VIIC/41 kit to model a VIIC.

Cheers,

Dougie

pumpjet · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 May , 2015, 17:11 »

Dougie,
I have the Nautilus wood decks for the VII.
72-502 1/72 Wintergarten (Turm II) for REV5015 (DECK ONLY) has cut-outs for the 4 canisters
and
72-501 Type VIIC Wood Deck for Revell-Germany #5015
Both have lots of slots.

I was just about to get the deck from rcsubs.cz for the /41 but it has the snort. It has planks running lengthwise up and down the hull. Plus tons of PE.

from what I see I will need
72-504 Early Type VIIC/41 Atlantic (Without Snorkel) from Nautilus.

I have the ModelBrass deck and your Torp doors/grating PE also.

I wish the snot had a cover of some sorts when in the deck.

But I guess I'll get both.

That med boat sounds cool with all that camo.

Bob

GlennCauley · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 May , 2015, 08:45 »

Quote from: dougie47 on 12 May , 2015, 15:28

But in terms of the main hull, at least to my eyes, I can't see many external differences in the hulls between VIICs and VIIC/41s. There is the Atlantic bow fitted to VIIC/41s but this bow was I think retrofitted to VIICs as well. So I reckon one could use the VIIC/41 kit to model a VIIC.

The "Atlantic bow" was only very slightly different than the original bow, with a bit more of a kick-up, a little broader/blunder in shape, and a bit longer at the tip so the forward bow edge had a steeper angle. Made for better stability in "crashing" through the waves in the more violent waters of the Atlantic. Retrofitted to VIIC boats? I personally do not know, but like Dougie says it is likely.

I used the VIIC/41 kit for my U-673 build, even though it was technically a (converted) VIIC boat... but the basic tower configuration was right there, and I couldn't say no. When choosing the Nautilus decks (or other aftermarket) they are fitted for either Revell 05015 or 05045 kits... the front part of the decks had slightly different shapes between the kits, so be careful in your selection. Also consider the thickness/thinness of an aftermarket deck... as you may need to design underlying support structures to support it in the hull if it is thin PE. (The Nautilus deck is thicker wood... it drops into place.)

That said, Nautilus (James) has helped me and others design custom decks for their builds. The U-673 deck we designed had elements from both VIIC and VIIC/41 decks.

uboatfan · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 May , 2015, 10:56 »

Hello all,

from my point of view there was a little bit more differencies between VII C bow and VIIC/41 with atlantic bow.
The shape of the forward deck was also changed. From a (top down) "V" to somethink more like a "U". The deck between Bow and position of bollards (at beginning of the sattle tanks) was made a little bit wider.
Boats with snorkel had also moved bollards. At boats with spare Torpedo container only on left side (see U-249; UIF 12). Without on both side (see U-929; UIF

.

Regards

Uboatfan

SG · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 May , 2015, 12:33 »

Bob, U664 at the time of her sinking sported Turm IV configuration with a flak vierling, no snorkel and a deck w the old-fashioned pattern. 9.U-flottille Sawfish on turret sides
Cheers
SG

GlennCauley · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 May , 2015, 13:25 »

SG, did U664 have the 4 liferaft containers on the port side of the foredeck?
If yes, then Nautilus deck #72-504 could be used: http://nautilusmodels.com/72-504.htm
If no liferaft containers, there is currently no wooden deck available for no snorkel... but maybe James could make a 1-off deck with the liferaft container section filled in and slotted as appropriate.

dougie47 · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 May , 2015, 13:32 »

Hi everyone,

My apologies, I think my point about the Atlantic bow in my last post was not clear. This was entirely my fault.

Uboatfan, I am in complete agreement that there was a significant difference between boats with the Atlantic bow and boats without it. This was actually the point I was trying to make (but I made it badly). I think we could change decks, change guns and even towers but what we can't do without undue difficulty is change the bow profile from Atlantic to normal, or from normal to Atlantic profile. So if we want to depict a boat with the Atlantic bow we use the Revell VIIC/41 5045 kit; and if we want a boat with the normal bow we should use the Revell VIIC 5015 kit.

I am pretty certain that the Atlantic bow was not an exclusive feature of VIIC/41s. Yes, it was fitted to all VIIC/41s but was also fitted to the last VIICs launched too. The Atlantic bow was on U 427, U 826, U 977, U 236 and U 237 and all these boats are VIICs.

Thinking the matter over, I can't see that the Atlantic bow would we worth the man hours, materials and cost to retrofit this to existing VIICs. So I would guess it was only installed on all new build VIICs and VIIC/41s from a certain time frame onwards (and not retrofitted to existing boats). The difficult question to answer is when did the Atlantic bow begin to be fitted to new build boats? U 236 had the Atlantic bow and it was launched on 24/11/42, so this could be one of the first boats launched with the Atlantic bow. There may have been differences between shipyards, with some yards launching boats with the normal bow after November 1942.

Given that the Atlantic bow was first introduced many months before the Vierling, there must have been quite a few boats with the Atlantic bow and Vierling (U 247 is one example). There would also have been plenty with the normal bow and the Vierling (U 223, U 339 and U 596 being a few examples).

Bob, from your post you mention you have the Atlantic kit which is the VIIC/41 RV5045 kit. Is that the kit you are using for this build? If you are, then my suggestion about U 596 is bad advice because it was an early boat with the normal bow (you would need RV5015 to depict U 596).

My apologies for any confusion in my last post.

Cheers,

Dougie

SG · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 May , 2015, 14:50 »

Sorry guys, i had completely missed the atlantic bow/aftermarket deck issue. Just like Dougie on his first post i just had thought about turm IV, flak vierling, old deck pattern, no snorkel and happened to see the pictures below earlier on today (U664 under attack), which struck me for their dramaticity and made me remember of this thread:

Glenn, i had based my suggestion to Bob on these pictures: i can't really say if the boat had the atlantic bow or not (but i don't think she had, so probably a bad advice mine too to depict U664), nor can i say if she had the bow raft containers and how many of them there were. Some of the crew on the conning tower seem busy inflating two dinghies coming most probably from the pressurized containers located on the turret itself (also, there seems to be a pair of rows at the base of the turret in the second picture, but I could be wrong). Your suggestion to modify the deck could be an excellent solution (given an adequate patience

).

uboatfan · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 May , 2015, 15:33 »

Hello Dougie, hello all,

you never stop learning! Dougie is right!

Some late VII C where build with atlantic bow!
I took by books and found a picture of U235 at commissioning 19.12.42. Type VII C with atlantic bow and simplified deck. U235 did not have Turm IV at commissioning.

Regards,

Uboatfan

dougie47 · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 May , 2015, 16:04 »

Hello again,

Yes, always new things to learn. I know the photos of U 235 you mean. I think it was a test boat and had a very unusual combination of Turm 0, snort, planked deck and Atlantic bow. Perhaps it is the only boat with this combination?

I have heard from Bob and he is using the VIIC/41 5045 kit which has the Atlantic bow. So we need to come up with a boat which was launched on or after November 1942 so that it has the Atlantic bow. And it has to have a Vierling. This unfortunately rules out quite a lot of boats such as 664 and 596.

There were probably quite a few boats which has both the Atlantic bow and Vierling but we need some form of evidence. Here are two possibles -

One choice could be U 744 which had a Vierling between September 1943 and January 1944 (with no snort). As it was launched in March 43 then it very likely have had the Atlantic bow. For more info see towards the bottom of this page -
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-257A/U-257INT.htm

Another choice could be U 247, which is pictured with a Vierling during commissioning in October 1943.

But new build boats which were launched on or after November 1942 must all have had the planked style (since the planked style replaced the slotted type on all new builds from around the autumn of 1942). Bob, this means you would need to go for a planked deck that is currently on the 5045 kit. I know you mentioned Nautilus' 72-504 kit but that will not be suitable as this has the slotted deck, not the planked deck. Could you try filling in the gap where the snort is on the Revell kit?

Cheers,

Dougie

uboatfan · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 May , 2015, 16:32 »

Hey

i have an idea:

To fill the gap maybe is not easy.
But what about to cover it?
at UIF 12 (and other pictures) sometimes a wooden gangway was stored around that area.
Together with some fenders, ropes or so it will show a submarine at a short transfer or so...

Regards,

Uboatfan

SG · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 May , 2015, 16:36 »

Dougie, I found a picture depicting U744 about to being boarded by a boarding party from HMCS/NCSM Chilliwack which sports the turm IV, no snorkel, but a single barreled 3.7 cm instead of the flak vierling. The picture dates back to march 1944, which confirms that the interval of time you gave for the presence of the vierling is correct.
U767: has the vierling for sure, laid down in April 1941, launched on July 1943, but no information about deck pattern, type of bow and presence of snorkel and bow raft containers. there's a picture taken at the commissioning ceremony in Sept 1943 showing that the boat was equipped with the vierling on her very early days.
Cheers

pumpjet · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 May , 2015, 18:35 »

Thanks for all the advice.

Would this deck work? It's for /41 from rcsubs.cz..
http://rcsubs.cz/index.php/80-uvod/86-photo-etched-for-revell-type-viic-05045

How would I fill in that gaping hole is my question.

Bob

pumpjet · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 May , 2015, 19:01 »

I found this pic. Flak with no snort. Look at the deck pattern when the snort would go.
But there was no designation as to what boat this was.

There may be some hope yet.. What do you guys think?

Bob

uboatfan · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 May , 2015, 04:43 »

Hi Bob,

This picture shows U377, taken 1942 at Bergen, Norway.
Commissioned 2.10.41. Due to this definetly not have a atlantic bow.

As i told, we are able to find several VIIC like this.
Here you will find additional pictures of U377:

http://uboat.net/media/boats/photos/u377.jpg

http://u-boats-type-vii.narod.ru/img/images/U-377.jpg

Regards,

Uboatfan

pumpjet · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 May , 2015, 06:06 »

Thanks uboatfan for the pics.

Here is a question for you all. What are the chances that the quad flak was changed while in port for the the 37mm gun. Then maybe changed back for the next mission if the boat made it home.
A little conjecture I suppose.

As for the gaping snort hole I could cover it with some tarp and put the rubber life raft laying on the deck ( from the revell schnellboot kits I have. They are are parts sources now. )

Now what deck to use....

Bob

dougie47 · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 May , 2015, 11:11 »

Hi Bob,

Once a 37mm was fitted there is pretty much zero chance they would change back to a Vierling (the Vierling was only a temporary measure until the 37mm was available).

Covering it with a tarp would be a good solution to the hole.

For a deck you could use the kit deck. The RCSubs one has the snort hole so is not ideal. In any case, once painted it won't look any better than the kit one.

Cheers,

Dougie

uboatfan · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 May , 2015, 12:06 »

Hello Bob,

as learnd from Dougie there are some VII C with atlantic bow.
Maybe all of them did get Turm IV.
I do not know if some of these boats did get the Flakvierling.

But you are free to build a model of one.

If you want to build the slotted deck on a ROG VII C/41 you can also use the amp set 72-02. For the atlantic bow use the bow part of the eduard set for VII C/41.

Than you have only to fill some small slots around the turm IV.

If you want brass parts for the Turm IV you need the RCSubs parts.

Regards,

Uboatfan