Hello guys,
Nice shot of U 515 with the 37mm on the foredeck, thanks SG.
Glenn, I think Revell got their "Turm III" idea from here -
http://www.tehnoart.eu/u-boot-ix-c-u-505-.htmlFor the timeline I have been able to make a few changes. This is the current one, subject to revision if necessary -
The main change is to do with the fitting of the Turm II and Turm IV.
When trying to do timelines, the first thing I do is to try to collect as many photos of the boat as possible. There are only a few wartime shots of U 505 and that is why this has proved so difficult. Once I have the photos, I then put them in three categories -
1 - photos when I know the date for certain.
2 - photos where I think I know the date.
3 - photos where I don't have a clue about the date.
Next is primary material - ie the KTBs. The info in these can generally be relied upon (except when it comes to ships hit and their tonnage). Then I look at the patrol dates, which I think can be relied upon.
Lastly I look at secondary material in books. Some books are better than others and often the info in books will prove to be slightly wrong. As for the dates in the photo captions, I always remain sceptical (except for one or two books that are superb).
The photo with U 505 with the Turm II is key to this. We can be sure of the following with this photo -
1 - It is U 505 (axe emblem)
2 - Due to the crowds waving it must show U 505 departing on a patrol (or perhaps returning). The crew wouldn't wave like that if it was for a practice dive in the harbour.
3 - The boat has a Turm II (the two rectangles below the upper platform are air intake ventilation holes that were there on the Turm II - the holes weren't there on Turm IV)
4 - The boat doesn't have a Vierling.
But when was it taken?
Hunt and Kill is an excellent book but I'm sure the date on the caption is wrong. Due to the absence of wintergarten in patrol 4, the Turm II HAS to have been fitted later (Turm II must surely be fitted in 5X) so the caption date in Hunt & Kill cannot be correct. It has surely got to show the boat departing or returning from the aborted patrols 5 or 6.
Hunt and Kill says that Turm IV was fitted in 5X, which I also think is wrong. I initially believed this because of the quality of the authors involved in the book and their access to the boat's KTBs. But I think they have seen the photo of the Turm II and though it must be a Turm IV (an easy mistake to make unless you really study the differences). When they learned that the tower was replaced in 5X I think they assumed it must have been a Turm IV that was fitted in 5X.
Now that I have been able to study the Turm II photo properly I've noticed two more things. Firstly the 37mm on the aft deck. I think Jon thought, like I did, that it could have been a man since the shape is a bit suspect. But I can see now that it is a 37mm but it doesn't have the same mount that the boat had when commissioned. The new mount is conical shaped, much like the mount we see in 20mm.
Lastly, the paint colour when the boat had a Turm II. Looking very closely there are two small vessels at the top right hand corner. If they are Kriegsmarine vessels (I think they might be) then their superstructure is in Hellgrau 50 and hull in Dunklegrau 51. The upper colour of U 505 is the same as the hull of the two vessels, which would suggest U 505 was Dunkelgrau 51 at that time.
I apologise for putting erroneous info in my last timeline, and indeed if any details in the current timeline may need changed if new info comes to light. Its the best I can do with the material we have.
Cheers,
Dougie
