Author Topic: Wooden decks (Read 25126 times)

Rokket · « **on:** 24 Aug , 2011, 03:33 »

Way back we had ~~plans~~ hopeless dreams to lasercut wood or plastic for decking. That idea has been sunk.

But... I did find a good off-the-shelf workaround. (There's always Pat's idea, and a few others, who have laid decking strip by strip. I felt the strips are too small for my skill -I had visions of clumpy stringy half-solvented/melted plastic goo everywhere).

The alt: There's an Evergreen sheet plastic product that seems to work.

"2020 Car Siding" N-scale 3-1/4" spacing
.020" thick (0.5mm)
Euro 8.40 a sheet (approx 150 x 280mm)

The dwgs Ive seen say the deck strips were 1.5 x 2.0", and other sources say a bit narrower at 1.75 (so probably both at various yards). In 1:72 that works out to .021 x .027", or .50 x .70mm. This siding is .50 x XXX, the pattern is hard to measure. I would guess .5-.6, so maybe a little bit undersize. But my logic is, a tad under will just be finer detail!

I haven't started cutting, just planning. So far I am optimistic, especially because my boat, GROUPER, did not have any metal except the tiniest, tiniest bit at the bow. (This is less than the "mix" boats that had a wood deck center and metal on the ends.)

Mike K · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Aug , 2011, 13:31 »

HI Wink. If you really want a wooden deck, take a look at the ones James has, over at Nautilus. These are really nice, and he has them for all three (Gato, Balao and Tench) classes.

Mike

aptivaboy · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Aug , 2011, 21:52 »

Where exactly? I can see the Cobia deck, which I'm going to get to modify for my USS Hardhead, but I don't see any others.

Thanks,

Robert

aptivaboy · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Aug , 2011, 22:00 »

By the way, I'm looking at another option, but I'll need some dimensions. If I can get the dimensions and spacings of the stringers that the deck slats were attached to, it should be a fairly simple thing to use a CAD program to create the stringers, and then just overlay the slats atop them, with the proper spacings. A good 3D printer could then print out very simple generic deck pieces that the modeler could cut or trim to the desired shape, and detail as he saw fit. A good enough 3D printer might even be able to create prototypical spaces between the slats, just like on the real boats, although that would cost a fair amount. I've got the slat dimensions from the Floating Drydock's Plan Book, but the stringer information eludes me.

Any help?

Robert

Rokket · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Aug , 2011, 22:25 »

Hi Robert,

I really, honestly think the size is too small in scale for much detail. The .75" space between slats is only .010" (.26mm, or a quarter of a millimeter). That's pretty small for so many repetitions of it.

The 3D printers have pretty lousy surface smoothness. My mate bought a $100,000 one to setup a new biz (which sadly failed and he was trying to sell the machine for pennies). The samples were very complex and most excellent, but they all needed serious sanding. At 1:72 for deck bits, there just wouldn't be anything to sand... I looked at a $1,500 printer, but the resolution is worse. Years ago I had some styrene laser cut, and it was interesting, but very "perforated". PE would have been better.

You could use a feeler gauge as the jig for spacing, I'm sure there's a .010" one out there at the hardware store/tool shop, or even some PE scrap.

Stringers - I took a couple under the deck of SILVERSIDES. They were inline with the frames (just not every frame obviously), and it was just "L" channel stock, nothing too fancy. I'm sure there is suitable strip plastic out there.

Rokket · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Aug , 2011, 22:25 »

Here's one pic

Rokket · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Aug , 2011, 22:27 »

and #2 of deck spacing...I can email you these as large (3mb) pix

aptivaboy · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Aug , 2011, 17:53 »

Sure, but detail isn't the idea. I'm just thinking of a generic deck piece, say the boats' max deck width amidships. The builder could then attach multiple 3-3 printed deck pieces together and cur and contour them himself into the proper shape for a particular boat. Things like hatches and chocks could be added by the modeler, perhaps sourced from H-R Parts, the kit, or scribed on his own, and so on.

The 3D parts I've had printed for my sci-fi models have been okay. There is a roughness to their textures, true, but an extremely light sanding and priming tends to eliminate that.

All I need are the spacings between the stringers. Anyone?

Rokket · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Aug , 2011, 02:28 »

They are the same as frames mostly (see pix above). The BOOKS/Library section of AMP has a couple frame guides. The stringers look to be L channel, about 2 - 2.5" wide, at each frame.

aptivaboy · « **Reply #9 on:** 01 Sep , 2011, 23:19 »

Okay, who wants a deck hatch? Shapeways says its printable. We'll see. I'll need to order a couple and play with them.

This is sort of what I'm talking about. I'll have to see if the bolt holes can be added and still be printable. There are limits to the detail, but if this is decently printable, than why not more? I also chamfered the slats like on the real thing, too.

Rokket · « **Reply #10 on:** 02 Sep , 2011, 16:56 »

Looks pretty cool. How much?

aptivaboy · « **Reply #11 on:** 02 Sep , 2011, 17:14 »

Shapeways says under $5 USD for most mediums. I have noticed a degradation in their products, though. When I first began ordering SLR's parts from them very early in the year, everything looked great, very smooth and crisp. My most recent parts look like someone took some course sandpaper to them. I may try to order a few parts in a higher, slightly more expensive medium to see of there's a difference in part quality.

This is still very early in the process. This rough draft deck hatch is really just an experiment to see if deck parts that small are even printable. I need to try to add bolt holes to the part and then see if its still printable, and maybe some faux metal to replicate hinge flanges. I also forgot one metal stringer piece, but that shouldn't be a problem to add. The dimensions mostly came from the Floating Drydock's Plan Book, but a few things I had to guesstimate on, so I can't guarantee its 100% accurate.

Robert

Rokket · « **Reply #12 on:** 04 Sep , 2011, 02:52 »

With so many variations and some photos just being teasing, I'm happy with 'close." It will be better and more accurate than oob. I'll go to $15 and can paypal, so just do what you have to do and I'm behind you.

Glued my main hull together, after4+ years I'm in a "do it now and move along" mode, sooo much to do. Would love to have had the bow limbers in PE, a resin escape hatch, and more, but...

aptivaboy · « **Reply #13 on:** 04 Sep , 2011, 16:21 »

Are you doing an EB boat? If so, I may be able to run you some limber holes. I made Hardhead's awhile back.

Spectre · « **Reply #14 on:** 05 Sep , 2011, 21:11 »

A generic deck piece would be just fine with me. I am building two boats, and the thought of laying individual strips leaves me weak in the knees. I like the hatch, too.

aptivaboy · « **Reply #15 on:** 05 Sep , 2011, 23:00 »

Thanks for the compliment.

Okay, my regular work starts tomorrow. I teach high school, and I have six classes, one more than normal, so time will be tight. Let me order the hatch and see if it matches up roughly with the model. Going on past experiences, it should take Shapeways about three weeks to get it to me. I'll check it out and if it looks halfway decent, I'll scan an image of it, post it here and if you guys think its okay I'll then turn on the Shapeways ordering feature. I don't want you guys to order anything that ultimately looks like garbage and waste your money.

If it looks okay, then I'll start work as time permits on a large generic deck piece. I still would like those stringer spacings, though, to make it look right. Also, Shapeways can't do the bolt holes at this time. They're just too small in 1/72nd, although there are small enough micro drills that would let the modeler do it himself if one was so inclined.

Robert

whaynesmd · « **Reply #16 on:** 07 Sep , 2011, 17:54 »

I'm interested in everything. Please keep us posted on anything you come up with!!

Walt

aptivaboy · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Sep , 2011, 10:55 »

I forgot about Shapeways' minimum ordering charge, which is more than the wooden deck hatches would cost. Any suggestions on quick and simple stuff I could CAD draw really fast for the Gato to add to the mix to meet the minimum ordering charge? More hatches? Deck furniture? Deck gun bases? Chocks?

First person with an idea I have the plans for wins!

EDIT: I came up with this. Its an antennae lead in from page 19 of the Floating Drydock's Plan Book. Could you guys check the dimensions and the like? Any suggestions on what needs to be changed? I'm still not quite sure that the conical section looks quite long enough, although my CAD program says the dimensions match up. The size of the hex bolts was guesstimated since I don't have that in my mass of plans. Am I missing any obvious details? I left the "nose" of the piece undone as I wasn't totally sure how the leads attached. I've seen some where a large hex nut did the trick, but others where there's a mass of "gunk there holding the wire, so I thought I'd leave that to modeler's discretion. Shapeways says its printable in 1/72nd scale for about $1.50 USD in their cheapest medium, and a tad over $5 USD in frosted ultra detail, a better, more detailed medium. I may consider changing the orientation of a few of the hex bolts to make them look more randomly applied and tightened. Again, let me know.

One more little item and I should be able to make their minimum order. Ideas?

Robert

aptivaboy · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Sep , 2011, 18:38 »

Holy crap, they says its printable!!!

http://www.shapeways.com/model/331740/generic_deck_piece__30_inch_frames__in_1_72_scale.html?gid=ug

I tried uploading a PDF but the file is too large.

I used a width of about 71 slats, since that's what my Bluegill plans showed was the proper number at maximum beam, if I counted correctly. An odd number was used since the centerline split a slat. The stringers appear to have been placed as per the ship's frames, as was quite properly suggested earlier and which I was too dense to pick up on, dummy me. This is the 30 inch version, while others were spaced at 24 inches to conform to the framing plan there. I'll work on that one, later, but my ultimate hope would be that one could just butt the 24 inch version to the 30 inch version where the real deck appeared that way. I left the slat end one one side to stick out a bit in case one wanted to use them as gluing surfaces for another deck piece. This is just an experiment, and I'll know more after the order arrives and I scan images for folks to look at. This could still all wind up in failure.

Suggestions? ideas? Obvious foul ups???

Robert

aptivaboy · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Sep , 2011, 21:03 »

Shapeways says the prototype generic deck and hatches should arrive by Sep. 27. In my experience, it usually takes longer than that. When they arrive, I'll let folks know how they look and if its worthwhile to continue this experiment.

Robert

Rokket · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 Sep , 2011, 16:17 »

Hi Robert,

looking mighty good. I would say add hatches, there were quite a few really, so the more the better!

Anxiously awaiting...

Oh, for big files: use http://www.wetransfer.com. They are FREE and allow up to 2Gb. You just go there, upload files, and a msg is sent to the target/receiver, and they download.

aptivaboy · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 Sep , 2011, 21:02 »

Thanks.

I actually think a plain, generic deck piece is better. The hatches were all over, but in different places for different boats. Its probably best - if this experiment works - for the builder to scribe them himself in a deck as appropriate for a particular boat.

By the way, does anyone know the dimensions of the bolt holes that secured the wooden slats to the stringers?

Rokket · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 Sep , 2011, 03:21 »

Based on a photo of my shoe on COBIA (I put my foot in the shot as a scale ruler), screw heads, straight slot, 15mm, which in nearest imperial is 5/8ths". The holes they sit in are slightly larger than that. 65mm or 2.5" OC.

Mike K · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 Sep , 2011, 12:18 »

I've emailed a drawing, to Wink, that might be of help.

Mike

Rokket · « **Reply #24 on:** 17 Sep , 2011, 23:38 »

Thanks Mike!

The bolts on the COBIA at present are straight slot, and those numbers seem pretty accurate (it was a good close shot of my shoe and I measured key stitching points). BUT, we don't know if correct fasteners were used and when the deck was replaced.

Thanks to Mike, we have a real plan! I'll send youa copy. It shows the bolts were originally hex head, with a 3/8ths shaft, and I make it an 11/16ths head.

aptivaboy · « **Reply #25 on:** 18 Sep , 2011, 13:23 »

That's awesome, thanks guys. I'll experiment with seeing if Shapeways can make a deck with bolt holes.

The bad news - they rejected my models using lesser quality, lower medium. They have to have the higher priced, ultra detail stuff. The little wooden deck hatch cover, for example, can only be printed in ultra detail medium for something over $5 USD, not the lower priced $1.50 or so, USD. The large test deck piece I linked to above is still in process, but it'll be about $15 USD in the higher priced medium, as is. Add in bolts and details and the price will go up.

I'm going to inquire around here in the states and see if there are an on-demand SLR companies that can do the work for less. I know of one that does great work but has a $150 minimum order charge, which is sort of the problem. Shapeways may not always be the best, but they're cheap and their minimum order is much less.

Rokket · « **Reply #26 on:** 20 Sep , 2011, 03:08 »

keep us posted. for a GOOD hatch, $5, say with your trouble and postage $7 or $8, is pretty good.

whaynesmd · « **Reply #27 on:** 21 Sep , 2011, 15:39 »

I'm in. Just let us know how much and when .
Walt

aptivaboy · « **Reply #28 on:** 27 Sep , 2011, 06:52 »

This sucks. Today is the day the parts were supposed to be delivered.

Supposed to.

I just got an email saying the deck was rejected, even in the best medium, because they can't print pieces that small. CRAP! Nice of them to figure that out, finally. I'm going to check out another source I've got a line on and see if they can print it. so far, the only piece coming to me is the antenna thingie.

Spectre · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Sep , 2011, 08:25 »

Bummer. Thank you for continuing to try!

aptivaboy · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Sep , 2011, 12:17 »

I'm not sure what the problem is. Their minimum size difference is 0.3 mm. The minimum on the part is something like 0.52, so there should be plenty of wiggle room. I'll keep trying. Now that the basic prototype artwork is done, its really just a matter of finding someone who can print it for a reasonable price.

Any suggestions? Seriously, does anyone have any ideas?

Robert

aptivaboy · « **Reply #31 on:** 30 Sep , 2011, 20:38 »

I'm not sure this went through:

Rokket · « **Reply #32 on:** 01 Oct , 2011, 00:46 »

that's pretty cool, I like it.

aptivaboy · « **Reply #33 on:** 01 Oct , 2011, 11:26 »

If anyone would care to do a rough size/scale check using the ruler in the photos, that would be great.

The spaces between the slats aren't completely burned through, but it still looks better than the Revell deck. The issue with the prior deck piece rejected by Shapeways wasn't the artwork, but rather that the way the art was put together made it unprintable using their machines. The deck is defintely do-able in 1/72 scale, its just going to be a learning process of what they can print. The trick is to alter the deck art in such a way as to make it printable and realistic. This is going to take some more time, but at least its do-able. Probably. Hopefully.

aptivaboy · « **Reply #34 on:** 01 Oct , 2011, 17:12 »

Here's the antenna lead in. Its in clear and little bit tough to see - its the little circular thingie in the bag - but if you zoom in you can just make out the hex bolts ringing the center. I'll try to paint it to make the details pop more.

Rokket · « **Reply #35 on:** 07 Oct , 2011, 01:25 »

nice, though painting will hep make it more visible

Author Topic: Wooden decks (Read 25126 times)

Mike K

Spectre

whaynesmd

Mike K

whaynesmd

Spectre