An introduction and a question

[TRM]

Hello everyone,   

A little catch-up here first....this would be the introduction part!  My name is Todd..."T"...or whatever works...LOL   I was on here many moons ago, but the way life goes, we often can't keep up with everything.   After a little re-registration, I am trying to get back into the swing of things.  While away, I have been doing a few things modeling related...building, shows and working for a fairly mainstream model paint company providing demos and technical support for some regional and national shows here in the US.  Also, I have been working with an organization called USABOT(United States Brotherhood Of Tankers).  USABOT is comprised mainly of men and women who were, or currently still are, tankers and mechanics.  Along with providing several veteran services, we have been working with communities and local VFW's and American Legions providing the manpower, experience and some parts, to cosmetically restore those monumental relics sitting in front of the halls and on town squares.  In addition, we have been working with a loocal museum here in Massachusetts, The American Heritage Museum, providing restoration and docent services....which this part actually leads to the question part...
The museum I am working with, happen to come across a U Boat relic recently.   While transporting a recent purchase of a PBY from the Netherlands, a quick stop in Iceland sparked someone there to donate a section of a U Boat to the museum.  Strangely enough, no one knew it was showing up...then one day, 7 pallets of rusted metal and one hulk of a piece just appeared.  Not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth, we began putting the rusty jigsaw puzzle back together.   

I know, "where is the question?"  LOL   Okay, while years ago, I probably knew enough to get me some answers...most of which were thanks to this site and the hard work from people like Dougie and the members...I must be getting old and hit a wall.  I am looking to try and narrow down what boat (section) we might actually have.  So that, would be the question...LOL   Iwillgive some particulars that I have...which are more or less speculative at this moment, but you never know what information might help answer a question.   














Here are a few from our reconstruction. 













And....this is how she sits not.  They placed her inside the museum for now.  Thoughts are putting her near the PBY if and when that makes it back here after some restoration. 




So...here are a few things that have been mentioned...maybe something is correct and might spark some direction....
1 - The U Boat sections came to us from Iceland. There is no information (at this time) on who had the piece or if it possibly was something that washed ashore or sunk in and around the area. 

 2 - There was some talk that the piece came, originally, from Poland. No names or locations.  Possibly something left unfinished, partially scraped and bounced around...maybe something left or sank in the Baltic. 

3 - Speculation it is a Milchk

[dougie47]

Hello Todd,

Welcome to the forum. Wow, there cannot be many real U-boat towers above the surface today. Very impressive to say the least!

I think you have the remains of the rear of a Turm IV which belonged to, or was destined for, a VIIC or VIIC/41. It is not from a IX or from a Milch cow as the shape matches that of a Turm IV from a VIIC or VIIC/41.

The pattern of holes in the fourth photo from the top are without question the holes from the side of a VII. The pattern is identical to that which was on boats such as U 828 and U 1209 so it is definitely a Turm IV from a VIIC or VIIC/41 you have got. It is not a Turm II as that was a different shape.

You probably already know this but the Turm IV was fitted to both the VIICs and VIIC/41s (it was not exclusive to late war VIIC/41s).

Finding out which VIIC or VIIC/41 may not be possible. A large number of VIICs and VIIC/41s had the Turm IV and many were lost to enemy action or scuttled at the end of the war. The holes in the fourth photo from the top might help with identification but the pattern we see was probably on a lot of boats. Most photos don't show this area clearly so it is not easy to determine the patterns in this area.

The fact that there is only the rear section of a Turm IV I think may be significant. There is a photo showing series production of the rear section of VIIC Turm IVs at Kriegsmarinewerft in 43/44. These were for VIICs which either had the Turm 0 or Turm II at the time but were due to be brought up to Turm IV standard. The idea presumably was to keep the main bridge area but fit only the rear part of the Turm IV. The tower stops just ahead of that pattern of holes in your photos but this is also the case in the Kriegsmarinewerft photo. I doubt this is coincidence.

My guess is that it could be the rear end of a Turm IV which never got fitted to a real VIIC. In this case it may have been lying rusting in a yard somewhere but was not destroyed. That would explain why only the rear section remains.

Another guess is that it was fitted to a VIIC or VIIC/41 which was scuttled or remained largely intact at the end of the war. Then the rear of the tower was either cut off or rivets taken off to remove it from the front of the tower.

In regard to the plates at the front (where it would have been attached to the front of the tower), is there evidence of these plates been cut?

Cheers,

Dougie

[TRM]

Hi Dougie,
Thanks!!  I appreciate the time to lay all that out...it certainly give me..."us" a direction to at least look fora plausible explanation.  We never may find the actual boat, if any, but being able to have something credible to discuss with visitors and such,  makes it much better than the alternative of Ahhh's and umm's sprinkled with some could be's...LOL   

Personally, I was leaning towards something scuttled.  Your mention of Kriegsmarinewerft and either something constructed or removed sounds spot on.  The front attachment points on both sides are as if the rivets were removed or never fit...supports more of the built version and not the removed.

While not the clearest photo, the attachment points on both sides appear to not be cut...just empty rivet holes.   While I am not too sure of how the turm was attached to the deck, there was no evidence of cutting, only rusting indicative of the unit sitting on the ground. 

You have certainly given me a direction to look in with regards to Kriegsmarinewerf.  We probably will never know how the piece made it from wherever it was left, sank or other, to Iceland...LOL  Another "story" was that someone in Iceland purchased it, had it delivered but then abandoned the project due to any number of factors.  Officials in Iceland mentioned something about it just being left where it came in...meaning on the shore.  We were, of course, wishing it might have been one of three boats sunk by our recent acquisition...the PBY. The PBY has documentation of sinking the first U Boat and having "the most kills" at three.   In either case, having the two and being able to display and share this history is incredible in itself. 

I am pushing creating a new tower, if possible, to give a better view of what the complete setup might have looked like.  There would be a considerable amount of mill work to be done to replicate things, but in the end...worth it.  The owners of the museum have been discussing possibly acquiring a 37mm and/or 20mm's to display along side as context.  They might be difficult to come by...but if we can dig up decent schematics, we have everything in our shop to make our own.  We just finished making the M8 gun and mantlet for an LVT-4 we have in the collection.  Not to mention...how cool it would be to scratch build a 1:1 37mm...LOL   

If I dig anything up, I will be sure to post it here.   Once I get back into the swing, I will pop some stuff on the site...maybe past models, current ventures and even some museum stuff...if anyone is interested!   

Thanks again for all the help!!   

Cheers,
T

[dougie47]

Hi Todd,

Yes, folks here would be very interested. We don't get to see real life Turm IVs very often as you can imagine. Other than U 995 this must be the only rear section of Turm IV for a VIIC or VIIC/41 above water. Chances are it is from a scuttled boat but I just wish we could get an answer.

I'm delighted you are thinking of creating a new tower. Simon Morris (NZSnowman) has produced superb drawings that are the best around so you might get in touch with him. Be careful with using U 995 as a reference as parts of that tower were rebuilt.

Cheers,

Dougie

[TRM]

Hi Dougie, 

I will be sure to keep with any updates as things unfold...especially with any construction.  The last shot in my first post was not mine as I was at an IPMS show last week in Tennessee.  Once I get back to the museum, I plan to take some better pics.  With any luck, I can try and compile a little more background on this one...even if it is not complete.  I hate to ask another question so early out of the gate, but a few searches already didn't render anything regarding Kriegsmarinewerft in 43/44...is there any sort of direction I should be looking?   LOL  I will continue my search on this tonight and see if I have any luck.     

Thanks for the information on Simon's work.  This actually dates how long I have been away, as I remember his updates of his drawings while he was working on it...LOL  Sounds like they might help immensely in getting us closer to a final project for viewing. 

Once I get a little more familiar with the boards, I can create a thread on the museum...while mostly tanks and planes, the historic value is amazing to see.   Thanks again for all the help!   

Cheers,
T

[dougie47]

Hi Todd,

Here is the image I talked of yesterday -



I didn't have time to scan yesterday but did today. It is from page 191 of Eberhard Roessler's The U-Boat (Cassell & Co, 2001). The caption says "Series production of new bridges (Bridge Conversion IV) at KMW, 1943/44" KMW must be Kriegsmarinewerft in Wilhelmshaven.

Cheers,

Dougie

[TRM]

Hello Dougie,
OUTSTANDING!   Thank you for posting the photo!!    Just took a quick look around to possibly add this to my collection...bit of an oddball to find...and find at a reasonable price...LOL   

Well, if that isn't damning evidence, I don't know what is!  LOL   I am actually writing up a small private finding report for the powers to be at the museum...to somewhat prove the case.  If nothing else, at least gives us much more information than we started with. 

The more I see the complete towers, the more I am going to push for a construction of a CT for maximum visual effect...outside having an entire boat.  I will post up what, if any, progress of my plight!      Thanks again for all the help...so far!! 

Cheers,
T