[WIP] Double Type XXIII build (ICM and Trumpeter, both 1/144)

[conus00]

With my U-2536 nearing it's completion I have started working on another project. As the title states it is going to be a "double-build" of two Type XXIII coastal submarines.
The reason behind building two of them is simple: I have originally purchased the ICM kit and managed to find Griffon's PE set for it. Recently Trumpeter released their Type XXIII and after buying the kit (which is way superior to ICM, BTW) I have decided to build ICM's kit as S-170 Hai, post war waterline diorama (thinking about having the boat moored at quay) with some modified Preiser figures and the Trumpeter's as U-2322 full-hulled version.

I have started on the ICM's kit and here are few pictures:
Opened the three circular holes on the hull, cut out the positioning lights alcoves and removed the sail's railing (which I'm gonna scratchbuild). Also marked the lines where I intend to cut the hull


Reworked the sail's interior and added some details (like the life preserver's hanger)




Stay tuned, TBC...

[bracco_n]

niicee I loved the CG interior!

[Rokket]

efficiency and clever idea! You're off to an excellent start.

[conus00]

Gentlemen,
after a little bit over year I'm back from dead....
Sorry for the blackout in communication but I've gone through quite rough patch of  my life. I have moved from central Ohio to Tampa, FL and finally settled down (for a while anyway) and found some time for my most favorite hobby again.

The work on U-Hai and type XXIII double build will continue...

Here's a few updated pictures where the project(s) stand right now:
U-Hai is almost finished, but I need to clear up some details:
I'm trying to portrait U-Hai (S 170) in post war configuration (before the installation of M-1 sonar). I've gone through all my type XXIII pictures and here are my questions:
(1) The picture of model of U-Hai in Eberhart Rossler & Fritz Kohler's - Vom Original Zum Modell - Uboottyp XXIII on page 75 shows the boat in this configuration:

no M-1 sonar, no forward rigging and some sort of antennae on the back of the conning tower. I can't see where is it actually attached to the CT, looks like a loop in a shape of V attached to both sides of the CT. Is that a correct assumption?
Here is another picture (U-Hai in 1958):


(2) I always wanted to build a quay diorama so I will try to portrait U-hai moored at the quay but it brings another question: the removable rigging on the deck is placed on port side of the boat. I wanted to place the boat so it is facing right. That would put the boat port side to the quay and the rigging would get in way of gangway....
How does that work?

Here's a quick Photoshop mock-up of what I'm trying to achieve:

(3) I was thinking about getting one (or two) 1/144 models of Opel Blitz truck to place on the top of the quay but I'm not sure if Bundesmarine still used them in 50s-60s?


More pictures of the progress:






The PE is (very hard to find) Griffon all the detailing scratchbuild.

No progress on the Trumpeter XXIII as of now. I have decided to build the U-2360 instead of U-2322. I quite like the more streamlined CT...

I'd really appreciate if somebody could answer my questions so can proceed with the build.
Thanks!

[TRM]

Concus,

Nice little project you have there!  I like the dockside diorama.  I also like your thought on the Opel Blitz.  Lots of dockside activity brings the diorama together nicely. In the end, it's your preference on what to add.  Looking forward to watching your progress!

Cheers!

[conus00]

I just spent couple hours working on the crew. They are modified Preiser tank crew figures. I definitely broke sweat on these. Just FYI the figures are only 12mm tall. My eyes hurt.

[Rokket]

nice!

[conus00]

Crew is finished. Painted, blackwashed and clearcoated.
I've included SD card in pictures for size reference:



TBC...

[Greif]

Glad to see you back conus00.  Your build is progressing nicely.  Great job on the crew!

Ernest

[conus00]

Thanks Greif.
Finally have two days off from my two jobs. Started working on the wharf. Pics coming up soon...

[conus00]

Just a very quick update.
This is how the overall composition going to look like:

[conus00]

I think it's time to put the "double" (as stated in the name of the thread) in play and start working on the Trumpeter's kit.
Started to do some extensive research on U-2360 and found some interesting info:
First of all I found (on some Uruguayan website this, unknown to me) picture of U-2360 with some interesting facts

Until now my only reference was this picture:


If you read the description it clearly states that the stripes on the U-2360 were YELLOW (training) contrary to belief (and all type XXIII releases so far) that they were white...
Also the description says that U-2360 carried yellow stripe on the bow.

After zooming in and out and playing with contrast in Photoshop I am convinced that there is a stripe on bow (Fig.1) and inclined to believe that U-2360 had stripe on the aft as well (Fig.2):


Also the first picture clearly shows the UAK trials insignia. After a few minutes in the Photoshop I came up with this mock-up:

(I'm still not sold on the stripe on the aft, though. I guess I will sleep on it for a while)
What are your thoughts gentlemen?

I have a few other issues though. There is a lack of detailed pictures of the inside of the CT.
I would appreciate if somebody could help me out and share with me some photos.
Here is what I found in my archive so far:








Looking forward your thoughts/ideas...

[NZSnowman]

One thing I noticed in the last photograph was the floor grating is wood! On all the other U-boats it is metal.

[conus00]

Decided to open the largest holes on the bow (the small ones I'll just "simulate" using black paint).
I'm happy with the result (pictures make them look little uneven but they are nice and smooth on the model):



When I dry-fitted the halves of hull together I have noticed that the holes don't line up. I have followed the original Trumpeter's holes exactly, so my question is: were the holes on Type XXIII really this offset?
Can't find good top view blueprint.


Edit: according to this blueprint, the holes were indeed offset. Hmmm, interesting. Never noticed that.

On the other hand the two top holes seem to bee too big on the model and wrong angle... 

What do you guys think?

[NZSnowman]

From this picture they look offset. You can just see the fore two vents between the left block.

Plan
http://www.mediafire.com/?upme1h68agdrr3m

[conus00]

It feels so good to finally have a day off!
Spending my time drinking Jack Daniels and working on and off on the diorama and U-2360.

Scratchbuilding the quay:




TBC...

[Pepper-mint]

Hello conus00

Great build so far, you seem to enjoy scratchB... AND very interesting topic.

I'm staying tuned.
 

[conus00]

Thanks Pepper-mint.
Yes, I do enjoy scratchbuilding (to certain extent).
My work on Trumpeter's kit continues but i have ran into a major glitch (which is bugging the crap out of me).
Here is my problem and I would appreciate your guy's help.
My life was nice and peachy (regardless building the Trumpeter's kit, anyway) until I ran into this picture:


I was originally planning on building U-2360 using the Trumpeter's parts #5 and #6.
After seeing this picture I have done some additional research and found out that Type XXIII over the course of the war had four different sails installed (Gesloschenne Brucke and three different Offene Brucke):
My German is pretty bad but I'm guessing that it means open/closed bridge?


I have seen couple builds of Mod.557 on the net and like the closed CT version a lot.
So here is my problem: there is a major contradiction in two available pictures of U-2360 I have.
According to this one (at least IMO) the U-2360 had the "open bridge CT installed":

Contrary to this picture (which makes me believe that U-2360 was one of the testing boats for the "closed bridge"):


I have built both versions of the sail so far (trying to figure out which one is gonna actually end up on the hull) and tried to take similar angle picture (sorry for "taped" CT, I'm still working on the interior).
As you can see the CT HAS TO BE the "closed bridge " because proportionally it just does not make sense... On the other hand the "closed bridge" version had only single hatch on the top and there are TWO people standing on the top of the sail. How, the heck, they both fit in there??? This is blowing my mind.... Dang!


I'm a real stickler for historical accuracy and I am at dire straits. I'd appreciate any help I can get on this mess.

My conclusion:
The U-2360 had two sails installed in her career: streamlined "open bridge" and "closed bridge" prototype.
I'd prefer to build the "closed bridge" version because I like it.
So here is my dilemma


Also, the Mod. 557 seems to be missing the bow hatch... If the photographer just took the picture of extra two feet  down...


As Jan Klarb

[Pepper-mint]

Hi,

Yes that's what it means.
and "Verschiedene Br

[Pepper-mint]

By the way, this is from the first Trumpeter 1/144 typXXIII kit (05907):

[conus00]

Thanks a lot Pepper-mint!
That explains a lot of my questions.

This is exactly the kit I have (05907) and I'm almost 100% sure now that this is the CT I'm gonna end up using:


Update coming soon.

[rabapla]

hello again ,

please be aware that some drawings are just "Entwurf", which means "projected". ('43..........)

use Your scratch- builded "Mod. 557" with straight front line and the hatch for the dinghy in front .
and leave a cut- out for two figures and a mounting point for the

[TRM]

Ralf,

I believe the Yellow stripe is to signify a boat on training trials, not assigned to a particular flotilla.

Cheers!

[rabapla]

yes, I know.

I just wanted to reactivate conus00 question regarding the placement of additional stripes abeam fore (and aft?).

sincerely

ralf

[TRM]

My appologies.

T

[rabapla]

oh sorry, no no.

didn't want to sound like a prima donna.

[Pepper-mint]

a completely closed CT would have been from plexiglass........that's why I don't believe that the pic shows an "originally closed bridge"........it's a semi closed bridge from the beginning!
just as the caption for "photo 20" from "u-boot in focus" reads. 

Hi
You are right:
description in U-BOOT im Focus n

[conus00]

Gentlemen,
my work on both builds continues.
Thank you for all the great info and opinions on the conning tower configurations. After careful and long consideration here is what I decided on:
I will be using the streamlined (non-closed version of the CT, kit parts numbers 5 and 6) because even with your great posts there is no proof how the cut-out on the top looked like (i.e. it's shape/size).
On the other hand this picture clearly shows the CT configuration:


Also, (and that's my main reason) open tower will give me the opportunity to super-detail the interior of the CT and therefore add more details to the model.

So here is my decision on the CT:



No worries, the closed CT will not end up in a trash because I already have in mind small cute "diving" diorama.

The question about the bow/aft yellow stripes

BOW:
I will definitely include one on the bow. I found this picture of U-2329 which shows where the stripe was placed.


I'm just little bit unsure if it extends all the way to the waterline. After carefully examining both pictures I'm leaning towards the bottom one:


AFT: I'm still undecided but after seeing the painting rapabla posted I'm inclined to placing one on the model to add a little bit of color.


I'm hearing a lot of references to U-boat Im Focus. Unfortunately I do not own the publications (even though I plan on purchasing them in future) but I would appreciate any scans of reference pictures.
I do not want to run into any copyright issues posting them here. I'm not sure how strict the forum rules are. You can always PM, though...
Also I would really appreciate any pictures of Type XXIII conning tower interior.

Ok, now some pictures of the progress:
Started on some detailing of the U-2360 tower (scratchbuild and some PE leftovers)



Also I replaced the kits incorrect bow holes:



The quay for the U-Hai diorama:




Still not finished but continuing nicely.
Any questions, please let me know.

[bracco_n]

Wow, it's looking great!

[Rokket]

that display is going to look very cool!

[rabapla]

pepper-mint posted the picture, not me..............

I have all the abovementioned sources for the typ XXIII, just was to lazy to look through, so all my remarks came out of my memory.
If You like to look at may interpretation of a typ XXIII boat, You may have a look at the gallery (old resin 1/72 kit)

regarding the CT:
I would have preferred the straight turret front, but that's my feeling. to the inside: below the antenna- holder on both side were two lockers, there dimensions just following the extend of those antenna- bases.

[Pepper-mint]

Hi,

Yes it's me, it's a plan from "Vom Original zum Modell uboottyp XXIII", nov. 1943...

In the book shown below"U-boottyp XXIII" you have a lot of techn. description, very good book...

Conus keep posting the pics 

Cheers,
Pepper

[conus00]

Sorry guys, got your posts mixed up.

Pepper-mint I have the book (except my cover looks like this)

Unfortunately it's in German and my German is sketchy at the best...

rapabla, would you mind posting link to your BLOG (if you have one)?
I can (partially) see the two lockers on one side of the interior of the CT in this picture:

Were there the same on the other side? Also what about further towards the bow?
This is the only picture of the interior of the CT of Type XXIII I have....

Update and some pics coming up soon.

[Pepper-mint]

Conus it's not the same book, the other one is in german and it's talking about the whole type XXIII story ; not a lot of pics and only a few
drawings but very interesting and useful.

Herr E.  R

[rabapla]

sorry, I don't have a BLOG............my boat is in the gallery here http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=31

this evening I'll have a look at my literature regarding the typ XXIII (it's 0924 am now) to have a look where the sketches are, which show the lockers etc. I needed those information too when I had to upgrade my old 1/72 resin kit. have to look at the special navy kit too..............can't find jan klarbaeks aka Mr.Mox building blog any more...........
If You have questions regarding translation, I'll be glad to help..................but You'll need some interpretation with my english, I'm afraid  

so, I'll look at the sketches..........

I have a question myself: what I found confusing is the arrangement of antennas: how many were on a wartime Typ XXIII, I think special navy calls out for 4, that excellent photo conus posted on model shipwrights (the shot of the conning tower from above with the british officer after capitulation) shows 2 antennas (not talking about the flagpoles!).

to be precise and to correct myself: just follow the inner contur of the position light housings for the lockers, the antenna holders are further back with just visible antenna- stuff below.
at the front is a step, on top the arrangement for the

[Pepper-mint]

Hi,

I have this one by C.WAUCHOP on HyperScale : http://hsfeatures.com/features04/uboattypexxiiicw_1.htm

Enjoy...

[rabapla]

excellent paint job (except for that black cheat line, which is wrong, and those white bands)
but the interior is out of the box, with the abovementioned problems.

we'll all have to look at our photos of original boats....................

and conusOO posted some pretty good examples!!

sincerely

ralf

[rabapla]

gentlemen,

as promised I've looked through my literature (all U-Boot in Focus, "U-Boottyp XIII" and "Vom Original zum Modell Uboottyp XXIII" by R

[conus00]

Ralf,
Do yo have a scanner?
It would be great help for me if you could scan the pictures you mentioned in your above post (the ones from U-boot Im Focus publications)
Thanks!

[conus00]

Gentlemen,
here is the promised update. They say that picture is worth of thousand words, so just few quick points:
-the "water" is just painted blue square (far from finished) to give me an idea of the overall composition
-all the weathering (on the dio and on the CT) looks waaaaay to sharp on the pictures. On the model is really subtle and life-like (I hate taking close-ups with flash)
-the rowing boat is scratchbuild and I created it because the 'water' part of diorama looked too empty
-the interior of the U-2360 CT is partially reference, partially educated guesswork

Now the pics. CT detailed, painted, washed and weathered ready to be glued together




And the diorama progress:








TBC...

[TRM]

Great job!  Looking forward to your next update!

[rabapla]

I realy like that dockyard wall!!!
for additional items like crates or such You may look at modelrailway stuff.

I thought that You had U-Boot in Fokus, because You've posted pictures of those? the most interesting would be the CT plan view.......
I will see what I can do, but I can't promise so please don't be upset.........to show my time problem: my actual build is a 1/48 antares schnellbomber I (me 262 what if), lasting for over 1 year now. so I apologize before......

sincerely

ralf

[conus00]

Thanks, Ralf.
I have already ordered some bags/boxes set from Preiser (in N-scale, 1:160 is pretty close to 1:144).
Also, the diorama is U-Hai in late 50s so (as you pointed out in my other BLOG) I cannot use Opel Blitz as Bundesmarine used M.A.N. or Unimag trucks.

To answer your other question: I do not own any of the U-boot Im Focus magazines. The pictures I posted came from my personal archive (mostly found on the internet) so I would appreciate any scans you can make for me. I will definitely use them for my Type XXIII 1:72 build. The kit is scheduled for tomorrow's Fedex delivery.
So take your time, no rush.
Thanks!

-LJ

[rabapla]

Ah, I see!!

Yes, for 1/72 additional info will be important because You see so much more in the CT.

personally I always dreamed of displaying my 72 typ XXIII hanging from a crane, but CMK/maritime line crane (see http://www.artitec-deutschland.de/7270.htm) is not 2000ton but 2 ton, which is slightly different   so it will be waterline again.............someday.

for 1/144 take a look at those 1/160 (N- scale) products:
http://www.artitec-deutschland.de/n20.htm
http://www.artitec-deutschland.de/n60.htm
http://www.artitec-deutschland.de/n10.htm

this are the guys who do the masters for CMKs maritime line: top notch resin!!

sincerely

ralf

[rabapla]

new photo (at least to me):

http://www.dubm.de/klasse_240.html

[conus00]

That's a new one for me, too.

[rabapla]

one of my employees will scan the stuff today, I wrote some remarks in english on the plan views/sketches in "vom original zum modell", which has excellent detail plans of the bridge. don't know if I can post them here due to copyright issues............?

now that I've looked at all my sources new questions arise:
the pictures of 2330 and 2360 (see above) hanging from a crane clearly show some interesting painting: middle grey over all and just a thin dark-grey/ black cheat line. but some authorities have stated in the past that there was no cheat line.....................dougie, what's Your impression?
 
sincerely

ralf

[rabapla]

posting the pics is not that easy.....2. try

these are all pictures of U 2360 (from that excellent "U-Boot in Fokus" which one should subscribe to: excellent material, always new. and half german, half english.)
I think we see pretty clear the opening of the semi- closed bridge and how high the top is: in fact it is higher than the deck aft (notice the "step" in the picture no.3-1!!) interesting is the socket for the

[rabapla]

the uppermost image shows the lonely black cheat line on U 2330 clearly. and both show the straight front of the CT, everything else would be a misinterpretation.
please note the differences regarding flood holes and possibly the railing on the CTs....................

[rabapla]

will post the plan views as soon as the upload folder is open again.............

[dougie47]

Hi Ralf,

I don't have the Vom original book for the XXIII and cannot make too many details out from the posted photo of U 2330.

But I do have Uboot Im Focus 2, with the excellent high quality image of U 2330 on page 15. This photo shows U 2330 with a medium grey upper hull and tower, a dark grey lower hull, and no bootline. There is definitely no bootline in this photo. U 2323 alos looks to be painted similarly.

I'm assuming that the Vom Original photo of U 2330 was taken on the same day as the photo of U 2330 in U-im-F 2? They both show the boat being lowered into Slipway 4 at Germaniawerft don't they?

Cheers,

Dougie

[conus00]

Ralf,
great pictures! Thanks a lot (I just wish that they were scanned at higher resolution, but beggars can't be choosers ). They make me want to get all the U-boot Im Focus publications (too bad that No.1 is out of print now ). I am looking forward to the additional bridge plans. My Special Navy 1:72 Type XXIII got back ordered but should be arriving just before Christmas...

Anyway, back to my build(s):
All the posted pictures threw a HUGE wrench in my plans for building U-2360. Clearly what I have done so far (in regards of the shape of the CT) is totally wrong so it is time to re-think how to proceed with it.
I would hate to loose all the work I have done on the interior of the CT but (being a stickler for historical accuracy) I don't want to build a boat in configuration in which it didn't exist. So after a long thinking, here's how I am going to solve my predicament:
I have gone through my archive of pictures (and books) in order to find the best picture of the CT of type XXIII and found these two pictures of U-2321:


Would you mind translating for me the captioning?

I will try to salvage what I have created so far so here is how I plan to "cut-and-paste":

It is great that Trumpeter's kit provides three different sail configurations so I'm gonna cut the spare one to pieces
The purple marked areas are going to be filed down and filled with putty, the green ones are going to get transplanted/scratch-built.
I really hate to do so much cutting to the model at this stage but I do not have an option.
Cross your fingers!

Also, I have an impression that the rungs are actually semi-circle shaped on a top of a small oval depression instead of the "regular" rectangular ones, right?

As far as colors go I'm not sure about the black cheat-line (according to my archive I yet have to see one showing clearly the black bootline)
The top picture of U-2321 clearly shows no line so I'm gonna stick with Dunkelgrau 51 (Humbrol 145) and Shiffsbodenfarbe 111 Grau (Humbrol 123) with no bootline.

[rabapla]

But I do have Uboot Im Focus 2, with the excellent high quality image of U 2330 on page 15. This photo shows U 2330 with a medium grey upper hull and tower, a dark grey lower hull, and no bootline. There is definitely no bootline in this photo. U 2323 alos looks to be painted similarly.
I'm assuming that the Vom Original photo of U 2330 was taken on the same day as the photo of U 2330 in U-im-F 2? They both show the boat being lowered into Slipway 4 at Germaniawerft don't they?

exactly those pictures are posted above..........maybe my impression of a boot line at the bow came from the space above the torpedo shutter, giving the impression of a stripe............?

@conus00:
why so complicated? in post nr. 17 You#ve shown the CT Mod.557........maybe You use the whole "roof": just cut a hole in it from behind the

[rabapla]

the caption reads:

"U 2321 during acceptance trials docked in Holmwerft Danzig.
flood holes are sealed by welding to evaluate their effect on underwater speed.

a lot of flood holes were cut into the outer skin to speed up diving time. by reducing flood holes by 70% the max. underwater speed increased from 11,2 to 11,6 knots, the extremely short crash diving time (static 21 sec., dynamic 14 sec.) only increased marginal.

at the front of the CT is the sealing cap for the rubber dinghy, the only rescue device those boats had. it's responsible for a relevant part of the underwater resistance."

sincerely

ralf

[rabapla]

trying to post the plan views with additions:

I think the most interesting are "Plan 11" and "Plan 12": below the position light bay is a rectangular thing, the locker. at the front from top to bottom

[conus00]

why so complicated? in post nr. 17 You#ve shown the CT Mod.557........maybe You use the whole "roof": just cut a hole in it from behind the

[rabapla]

so........

the closed CT You have is perfect, except the "step": my fault, I was meaning "slant"(or slope or bevel or chamfer.......don't know). If You look at the photo taken from behind of U 2360 You see the slope. at the model with the closed CT the slopeis slightly to much forward: the upper ridge is at the same level as the front of the periscope socket.
there is no other step. the photo taken from the front on commissioning and the one taken at the quay from behind show all You need and are proof enough for me. (I can only guess that the crane- photo shows U 2360 after part of the aft upper CT casing was taken off, I even think that one can see the sky through one of those 3 big round flood holes....)
and the opening? not a circle, it seems to be a U with the  bow to the front. the width? educated guessing necessary........look at the antenna behind the back of Oblt. z. S. Schrobach in Photo 21. shoulder- width, I guess.

and close that space under the position lights bay!

due to business problems I can't scan too soon, I'm afraid. will do my best.

but...close that space under the position light bay, put the CT- roof with the slope slightly back to the periscope base and cut out that U-shape, paint yellow stripes on the exhaust casing, the CT and the bow and You have U 2360!!

should I use my alanger or my special navy typ XXIII to buil U 2360.............. ?

[conus00]

Work in my shipyards have been temporarily halted (too busy in my two jobs) but will continue in next few days....
In the meantime here's another new (for me) picture of U-Hai

should I use my alanger or my special navy typ XXIII to buil U 2360.............. ?

If you have both, I'd suggest to turn Alanger into U-2360. By reading all the reviews I'm assuming that the Special Navy is better quality kit and better detailed.
In order to build U-2360 the kit will have to be extensively modified (lots of cutting, puttying and sanding - all risks of damaging details). Also if your build goes belly up and you have to buy another kit, the Alanger is much cheaper to replace.

[conus00]

I've made quite bit of a progress on U-2360 today. Will take some pictures and post them tomorrow.
I have one question, though: did U-2360 have wooden "deck"? I'm not sure about it because I have read somewhere that towards the end of the war Germans were running low on materials (including teak wood used for the planking).

[rabapla]

first: love the "belly up"- picture................especially when talking about u- boats
second: the "crane photo" leaves me with the impression that U- 2360 did't have that wooden catwalk. wasn't it there just on early boats?
third: don't know when my plans will reach You (christmas overwork for the mail service, CIA wondering what these plans are about and such), but You should wait for them when it comes to CT- detailling

all the best

ralf

[Rokket]

Conus - interesting, the Yanks did the same, started adding more metal Teak must have been quite rare! It's interesting to see the "Best" version when time and resources were a-plenty, and then the "make do version".

[conus00]

first: love the "belly up"- picture................especially when talking about u- boats
second: the "crane photo" leaves me with the impression that U- 2360 did't have that wooden catwalk. wasn't it there just on early boats?
third: don't know when my plans will reach You (christmas overwork for the mail service, CIA wondering what these plans are about and such), but You should wait for them when it comes to CT- detailling

all the best

ralf

The pun was totally intended.

In regards of catwalk, I decided to not put one on the kit.
Also, big thanks for the plans, Ralf. I will need them for my Type XXIII in 72nd scale. The kit is backordered and is supposed to arrive either this or next week.

[conus00]

Majority of building on U-2360 is finished (just a small stuff which will be added after painting: screw, RDF loop, schnorchel, flagpoles, antennas and periscope). I have decided to go with the original open CT on the kit. I'm still not sure if I got the closed one right, plus I'm missing all the interior pieces for it anyway and it would be too much scratchbuilding. Anyway, the closed CT will not get thrown away. I will either buy another Trumpeter kit or turn it into small "diving" diorama.
I just bought on Ebay U-boot Im Focus (issues 2-6) so maybe I use the closed CT to build U-2330. (According to pictures it had some interesting CT variation)

The models are ready for pre-shading (you can see where I marked the lines with pencil on the U-Hai, the ICM's kit lacks the detail on hull and CT)

[bracco_n]

Very good work Conus!

[rabapla]

very impressive variations! like the shape of the opening on the semi closed bridge!! still thinking about how far the rear end of the CT- cover should go.............

sincerely

ralf

edit:

it's all Your fault ..........just ordered the trumpeter 1/144 kit and those preiser figures!
maybe it will be easier for me to start the U-2360 conversion with the smaller kit? maybe a little "what if" with the bridge completely closed and some scuttles in front?

[conus00]

Sorry to hear that, Ralf   Sometimes I happen to have bad influence on people...
Which kit did you get #5907 or #5908? I'm very curious as what is the difference between those two?
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t29190.html

Mine was #5907

[conus00]

Just a quick update:
U-2360 is pre-shaded (it seems lil' too harsh in the pictures but I'm fairly new to airbrushing - bought my Paasche only about a week ago) and I just found out that my yellow Humbrol dried out so I have to wait to get some more (for the yellow training stripes) before I proceed. Finished all "small" stuff: propeller (thinned the blades with exacto), schnorchel and RDF loop. The last two weren't very satisfactory OOB so I scratched the loop (using only the original pole) and made modifications to the schnorchel to make it look little bit closer to this:


Here's the result:


U-Hai is painted (still have to do the bottom of the hull) and  I have started on filling all the floodholes with flat black to simulate "openings". The job is very tedious...
I have used this technique on small holes on my 1/144 Type XXI and the results are satisfactory.
These pictures are taken only after one touch-up:



TBC...

[rabapla]

Which kit did you get #5907 or #5908? I'm very curious as what is the difference between those two?
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t29190.html

Mine was #5907

just ordered it, it will be 5908...............
googled "trumpeter Typ XXIII 144 review" and found pictures of the box' contents for both, 5907 and 5908: seem to be a different instructions: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10088197

and:
parts 5 and 6,the CT for the experimental boat seems to be different:
the forward edge of all three variants is straight now (5908)  http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10088197z3/70/3
the upper and front curve for the completely covered bridge project (which should have a plexi glass cover anyway!!!!) is missing now!!!!!!!!
 http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2032%3Atrumpeter-dkm-type-xiii-u-boat-1144&catid=69&Itemid=1

btw:
I still can't understand how somebody could have build the experimental (wrong) completely closed bridge with the early release (5907): one simply couldn't glue the CT- cover on the CT with the curved front, in 5908 the upper edge is directly above the position light cut out.......just compare the pictures of the box content above.
 
and
could somebody please tell me the difference between part 18 and 20?




merry christmas to all of You from snowy germany!

[Pepper-mint]

Hi conus00

Where did you get the info for those 2 "windows" ? Looks strange to me...

[rabapla]

the 2 bundesmarine- boats "hecht" and "hai" had two position lights on both sides.

sincerely

Ralf

[conus00]

Hi conus00

Where did you get the info for those 2 "windows" ? Looks strange to me...

It does look strange, I agree. Here:




Also, Merry Christmas to you Ralf and all forum members from sunny Florida (it's 20C and sunny outside)

Ralf, does it anywhere on the box (or in the instructions) say which numbers are these boats suppose to represent?:

Neither one of all three variations seem to be correct to me... The bottom one comes close to U-2330.

[Rokket]

Great idea to have the variation, this is a really nice project.

Oh, notice the oil canning (bent metal between frames and ribs) of the fairwater ("conning tower"/sail?

[Pepper-mint]

Thank you C. and Ralf.
After war U-boats, never noticed the 2 position lights per side (and i have these pics !!!)... I think this is a "short time configuration", the "HAI" and the "HECHT"'s CTs were completely rebuild.

Conus00, as far as i know this is the typ XXIII "PROJECT" kit, during the designing period no numbers were attributed, "Project" was her name. And after some research and reading, at least 2 of the 3 represented profiles are inaccurate.
But as it was a development boat, everything's possible or impossible... This is why i built this kit in a "multi-variation way" ; i took the C tower and built the A closed bridge and the hull without the front hydroplanes...
The same story for the "Balkonger

[Pepper-mint]

Hi,

Bridge drawings. the plans are dated : 1 december 1943, Turmumbau, the "Endg

[conus00]

This is great reference. Can't wait for my Special Navy XXIII to arrive. Still on backorder... 

In the meantime I have to finish my U-2360 and the U-Hai diorama.

[Rokket]

great dwgs

[rabapla]

hi,

received my 1/144 trumpi Typ XXIII 5908. just projects possible:
A with the closed bridge. wrong CT sides with the ladder steps at the CT- sides, cut out like flood holes (like on U-2322). wrong top: shouldn't be fully closed when building U-2330 or 2360.
B with a splash guard on the upper rim and a "collar" half way up the CT front, like on Typ VII etc. steps again on the CT sides
C straight CT, no splash guard, no (!) steps

hull: some additional flood holes at the bow, like on some drawings from R

[conus00]

Hi Ralf,
If I understand you correctly, you will try to build U-2330 as she appeared on March 1945 based on these two pictures showing her being lowered onto Slipway 8 of the Germania Shipyard, correct?

[rabapla]

exactly.
sort of a feasibility study for my Alanger 1/72 typ XXIII. already noticed that the upper edge of the rear slope must be aligned to the periscope socket: otherwise one can't fix the life belt to it...........

and now working in 1/144 myself I can really apperciate what You achived with Your boats!

[conus00]

Thanks Ralf,
I just thought that you might like the following mock-up I created to modify the Trumpeter's 5908.
Here are my suggestions how to modify the kit to make it look like U-2330.


starting from the top:
-sand down hatch and create opening on the top of the CT (that is left to interpretation as there are no clear pictures of the turm. I think I came pretty close)
-extend the bulge (I would suggest to go further than the front of the periscope housing: if you take a look at this picture, I believe that in reality it extends almost half way of the housing and also the slope is less steep than the kit's part):

-crate step's rungs
-sand down and recreate the handrails and extend them and curve them up to the top of the front hatch (feature, I believe, unique on this boat)
-fill most of the flooding holes, create a few new ones and recreate the access hatch (maybe just use different CT and modify the top?)
-no wooden deck
-only one rudder on the bow
-fill three flooding holes on the bow (U-2330 had only 3 instead of 6)
-recreate the sounding equipment "notch" in the keel

These are just a few suggestions, I'm looking forward to your building log!  

[rabapla]

Your mock up really summs it up!!
except that I used the kits slope that' pretty much what I did  
the arrangement of the flood holes of the ct won't be 100%.

doing the same modification on the alanger boat in parallel...........

1/144 is hell of being small!

[conus00]

Wow! You are already done? I'm a hell of a slow builder in comparison.
I demand pictures!  

Just two quick pictures of my progress:
Yellow went on first, then the top cover of grey. UAK rune is airbrushed on.
Waiting till tomorrow for the paint to thoroughly dry before masking and painting the bottom.

I plan on weathering both boats at the same time:

[Rokket]

looks lovely - yellow first?

[conus00]

looks lovely - yellow first?

Yep. The yellow is acrylic, the rest of the paints are enamels. Enamels leave much thinner coat. When I tried (on a piece of old hull) mask the yellow stripe last the paint left visible "step" (i.e. was too thick).
I sprayed the yellow first (which blended the edges) then masked the stripes and sprayed coat of grey. The results are nice stripes without any visible edges.
I hope that makes sense....

I just airbrushed the bottom dark grey and while the boat is drying I sat it right next to my finished Type XXI. Couldn't help it, had to snap a few pictures:

[rabapla]

Wow! You are already done? I'm a hell of a slow builder in comparison.

No, I just filled the flood holes and did the modifications You've shown above. now I'm in the sanding and polishing process. still have to install the CT interior.
I disagree with Your interpretation of the rear slope: just look at the position of the flag pole............

realy ran into some problems with the 1/72 alanger. the biggest problem is to find a 3.5x1.5x2.5cm pice of not too hard plastic to carve the semi- closed CT top!!!!!!!!! Grrrrr!

deeply impressed by Your boats: look like 1/72!

[conus00]

Thank you, sir!
I always strive for the best I can achieve.

My Special Navy is still on backorder but I am already thinking about getting two kits: build them as U-2321 (which was the first of Type XXIII commissioned) and U-2330 (the other boat with experimental CT) and display them side-by-side. Would be nice to compare the differencies.

Also, as far as the extend of the slope on the CT here's why I believe that it extends at least half way to the periscope housing:
This is the picture from U-boot Im Focus #3 (page 14). It is not very good quality but I know that you have the original publication so if you take a look at it I believe that if the slope was ending at the front of the housing then you would be able to see the WHOLE housing joining at 90 degrees with the top of the CT. As you can see on the picture the housing is missing small triangle which makes me believe that the slope is actually in front of the housing but I might get that wrong....  


Any pictures of your build so far?

[rabapla]

o.k., we are pretty close:
1. top front rim of the rear slope: level with the front of the periscope housing (remember the life belt in the crane U-2330 photo?).
2. rear end: halfway back of the periscope housing. check this with the position of the flag pole, which is at the rear edge of the bridge. and I will have to think about the position in relation to the rear- top flood holes...........and that the transition between bridge rear bulkhead and rear top was rounded (according to the plan views).........

I found the shape of Your CT- opening already very convincing............

[conus00]

Ralf,
I made a little 3D mock-up how I believe the turm on U-2330 and U-2360 looked like in my opinion.
It's just a little quickie in Photoshop but it serves the purpose:


What do you think?

[conus00]

Continued working on the U-Hai diorama. The boat is finished, it just needs one last clearcoat (tomorrow after decals dry).
Started to figure out the overall composition:

and couple of close-ups



Still have three more figures to be placed in the diorama and (as you can see) none of the boxes/barrels/cans are painted.
Also, the "water" is still just a blue square.

I'm thinking about getting a bottle of Magic Water, I've seen some very good results with it.

[bracco_n]

U-hai looks great! By the way I love your XXI

[rabapla]

great!
just leave the quayside as it is: anything more would destract from the boot....

[rabapla]

and if You still need a car or truck for that quayside:
did some research and only found this in 1/160:

http://www.aktionshaus-mzz.de/

go to modellautos - spur N - fertigmodelle

on page 13 is a mercedes benz 180, very common sight at that time (admiral's or captain's wife's car   )
on page 15 it's the VW karmann ghia (didn't find a beetle...grrrrrr)
on page 16 the opel kadett (great choice, might even have been driven in bundeswehr- colors)
on page 20 the tempo hanseat (as the name says: common in northern germany at the coastside: a civil contractor delivering provisions?)
on page 21 the Ford 17M (great)
and on page 22 the BUNDESWEHR DKW Munga!!!!!

or maybe a B

[rabapla]

Ralf,
I made a little 3D mock-up how I believe the turm on U-2330 and U-2360 looked like in my opinion.
It's just a little quickie in Photoshop but it serves the purpose:


What do you think?

I've only just seen this!!!!

exactly what I plan to do, except that my slope will be a little steeper (stubborn me... ), I will leave the front row of the upper rear flood holes visible.
the flagpole is a little bit more to the back, right at the rear edge of the bridge.

I must say that I realy love Your drawings, they get discussions to a new level. all this may be nitpicking, but as we plan to do such things in 1/72, errors will be more visible than in 1/144. very very helpfull!

[conus00]

I'm glad you like my drawings, Ralf. I usually make them to help visualize what I'm trying to explain in text. Most of the time I believe that pictures are more descriptive.
Thanks for all the links for the N-scale cars. I will make the decision after I finished the diorama. I want to see how "empty" the quayside will appear. On the other hand I don't want to clutter it too much because it would detract from the boat itself.

As of now I have nothing new to report, have been too busy working my two jobs but I will update the thread as soon as possible.

On a side note: I broke down and bought second 1/72 special Navy Type XXIII (the first one is still on backorder  ). If I end up getting both I will have another "double-build of type XXIII" this time in 1/72 where I can let my detailing skills run really wild.

[rabapla]

 

......just bought my second special navy XXIII too..............good price, still one left
 http://cgi.ebay.de/U-Boot-XXIII-Germany-WW-II-Plastikbausatz-1-72-/280612588724?pt=Standmodelle_Baus%C3%A4tze&hash=item4155d04cb4
(the top lit is missing, who cares?)

 

one will be a generic boat with FuMB "Tunis", the second U 2330 or 2360..............someday..... (what to do with the alanger boat then?)

does anybody know the tactical sign (rune) on the CT of U 2330? (still don't have an idea where to get that 2.5x1.5x3.5 plastic piece to carve the closed CT top in 1/72 from............)


PS:
one more difference between the 2 trumpeter kits: 5907 has the production hull with less flood holes at the bow than 5908 and the late GHG- balcony....so kit 5907 is the production version (except for variant C which is a project- mix- up), 5908 are projects.
love trumpis surface detail, they should blow it up to 1/72...........

[conus00]

Hi,
finished work on U-2360 today. Here are some pictures.
Sorry for the cluttered background and "working" stand, also the flash makes the weathering and "rust" way too sharp (in reality it is nice subtle).
I'll try to take some pictures outside when it's sunny without flash





Work on diorama also continues (no pictures this time, not much to report, I'm afraid). Just ordered bottle of Magic Water today. Will update when it arrives.

Ralf, to answer your questions:
- I believe that U-2330 did not carry UAK rune at all (and I'm almost positive that it also didn't have the yellow school-stripe)
- You can try to shape the rounded portion of the top of the CT from wood to create sort of a "mold" and then fasten it in a vice, heat piece of scrap plastic (like old bottle) or a thin sheet and push it on the top of the wooden "mold", after the plastics conforms to the shape of the "mold" and cools off you will have a nice shape to work with.
- as far as your Alanger kit goes (it is very dimensionally innaccurate), if you have good scratch-building skills, I would suggest to turn it into waterline (which will eliminate some of the discrepancies) conversion of post-war Klasse 240. Here is a link to great conversion made by Pete Vill over at ModelShipwrights.com: http://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1466

Also I agree with you: Trumpeter should "blow-up" their Type XXIII (after they fixed few mistakes) to 1/72. Definitely!

[rabapla]

wow! congratulations!
still believe it's 1/72!
love the "scratch one build" under Your "on the workbench"- signature....................

and transforming the alanger boat into typ 204... .........would solve the problem with the exhaust cover which is too short on the alanger boat...........with some shortening before and behind the CT the hull should look quite o.k.

it's a shame holidays are over.....don't know when I will be building again.......

[Rokket]

really nice work

[TRM]

Superb Job!  Congratulations!

[conus00]

Thank you, gentlemen!
The work on the U-hai diorama continues: I have built wooden "frame" which will contain Magic Water when poured in, I also airbrushed the color of the water green (fits the Atlantic better IMO).
Still have to paint all the barrels and crates, though. Also have to find the correct size thread to moor the boat. Overall the work is almost finished, hopefully the next update is going the one of the finished project.
Some pictures:



Also, I am already thinking about my next build: most likely ICM's Type IIB in 1/144. Stay tuned for the conclusion of this double build and start of a new one...

[Rokket]

dio looking lovely

[FoxbaT]

Beautiful boat, well done!





Karel

[Greif]

Nice job conus; the weathering looks excellent.  Your dio is coming along nicely also.

Ernest

[conus00]

Thank you, gentlemen.
Diorama is finished just waiting for me to get enough courage to mix the Magic Water and pour it in. I'm dreading this step: I have never used that stuff before and there is huge amount of hours invested into the model. Does anybody have any experience with M.W. ?
After it's poured in and hardened, the last thing left will be to "cast the lines" to moor the boat to the quay.

On a side note: I have already started work on ICM's Type IIb in 1/144, some pics coming soon.

[Rokket]

I would DEFINITELY practice. Often I try something tricky, and do a bit of testing. Or start it but prepare myself mentally for scrapping it and doing it over. A little Magic Water wasted is cheap if you save your model!

[Ronguil]

Thank you, gentlemen.
Diorama is finished just waiting for me to get enough courage to mix the Magic Water and pour it in. I'm dreading this step: I have never used that stuff before and there is huge amount of hours invested into the model. Does anybody have any experience with M.W. ?
After it's poured in and hardened, the last thing left will be to "cast the lines" to moor the boat to the quay.

On a side note: I have already started work on ICM's Type IIb in 1/144, some pics coming soon.

Hi Gentlemen,
I'm sure you know "how to" with MW.
But you may be interested in these link :

http://www.unrealdetails.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=127&Itemid=23
and
http://www.unrealdetails.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=127&Itemid=23

BTW : I'm searching for good renderings of typ XXIII interiors.