How to fix the RoG Gato Class kit?

[bill_c]

I am starting on my RoG Class VIIC U-Boat and assembling the upgrades, etc. One to always plan ahead, I'd like to do the Gato-class sub next, perhaps as the Wahoo or one of the other top boats of WWII.

A comment from Wink to the effect that the Revell kit is "a good postwar configuration" got me to wondering how much work it will be to make the model reflect an early- to mid-war Gato-class boat?

[aurora-7]

Hello, Bill.

From what I've been finding out, one of the biggest issues make the Revell Gato from a post-war boat to an during-the-war boat is the decking. The Revell Gato used an museum preserved Gato as a reference and ended up using it's post-war metal decking instead of it's original teak wood decking. I've seen a couple of Revell Gato's have their decks redone with Evergreen corrugated sheets. I'm currently looking into doing either that or simulating individual deck strips with open spaces between them, like the real boats had.

If you look into my 'Poor Gato' thread, you'll see an early war boat (a Tambor class but very similar to the Gato) that has the wood decking I'm talking about.

There's also some differences in the emergency marker buoy hatches.

The flood holes along the side of the upper hulls were increased as refits progressed on the boats. The model shows the configuration of flood holes as the boats were when they were first commissioned. Over time more holes were cut in the yards to improve the boats diving time.

You can get more extreme if you want by cutting flood holes on the ventral side of the hull. The kit does not have any but the original boats had them since launching.

I've also found the these boats when through many individual modification over there service lives and no two boats were exactly alike after a short period of time. Depending what you want to convey with the model, a general Gato or a specific boat from a specific time setting, you can make it as easy or involved as you want.

There's quite a bit of aftermarket parts available for this kit, now. I just bought the outer torpedo doors from here at AMP and I got a new conning tower/fairwater from Iron Bottom Sound Models. There are machine gun mounts and deck guns after market kits as well as various photo-etched components available from different manufacturers.

[bill_c]

Thanks for the reply!

It sounds like all the major issues can be fixed with available upgrades and PE. I know Wink is working on some new upgrades, and maybe they'll be fininished by the time I get around to the Gato (need to wait for the price to come down or someone to "off load" his at a good price).

Bill

[Rokket]

We're exploring the possibility of doing a wood deck. It would be laser. nautilus might be (are??) offer(ing) one, but...this would be...hopefully better. Many boats did have metal in the war as teak got short (who the hell needs so much teak in war?). I have done a little research  about wood vs metal, just a study of photos to see what boats ahd what. It's not exhaustive, some photos are offy, and some boats changed.But have a look: http://amp.rokket.biz/reference.shtml at the bottom are 2 PDFs, one on decks, the other on converting an Electric Boat to a Portsmouth.

A project in the works is roundover and limber holes with rivets in Portsmouth (getting close), and ideas: new diving plane stern, wood deck, metal deck.

Coming soon with the torpedo shutters are aft shutters (PE) for Portsmouth boats, and torp tubes plus torp noses.

[aurora-7]

Awesome, rokket! I had no idea metal decks were used at all during the war. I don't know how I missed it in the reference section!  

And I was very surprised on my first visit to the USS Nautilus to see it had a wood deck! When you think nuclear power, wood as part of the construction process does not come to mind.

[Rokket]

Yeah, it was  ateak shortage and probably construction-ease thing. The torp shutters started with 'spoon rebates" but very early they decided that was silly, too much work and made them straight angles. By Tench they were almost flat angles. Here's a small real life exampe in modern times...

As a post-high school kid I visited my Dad's small company, and a prototype machine they built had round Lexan (polycarbonate) collars for putting spools of thin copper on the machine. The collars were about 1 foot (30cm) dia and round. They looked very hi-tech in 1983-84, and much like a Sci-Fi machine. I thought they were awesomely cool, but asked why they had to be round, seemed like a huge expense to machine out round buts. Turns out it WAS a huge expense. Turns out there was no mechanical reason. Next visit the new machine had square collars...I'm sure Smart Adults thought about it, but I felt good observing and reaching the obvious logical conclusion. Machines didn't look as cool, but were MUCH cheaper!

Aurora-7: the worst of the Post war stuff is the rescue buoys and a few bits here and there.

[Division 6]

Hi Guy's thought I would pop in here as I just started working on my sub the other day.
I've been staring at this stuff for over a year so bear with me on this.

As mentioned the major post war problem with the model is the marker buoy cover.
The main problem with it is the shape but also the location.

Each boat was different and depending on the yard, year and series modification they and some of the other deck details would be placed in different locations.

With the buoys not only was location and issue but also whether or not the buoy was removed and plated over and in some cased missing altogether.


Now the thing you will have to decide on is which boat you want to depict and which part of her career.

Boats differed in appearance by yards and production number in that the limbar holes would be in a different shape and number, the anchor may be on the port or starboard and in some cases both, the opening to the forward escape hatch would be on the port or starboard side, the opening even appeared to differ in size, Marker Buoy location varied, etc.
.
After each refit the boat would have changes made, things added or removed, items moved to a new location.
Some where small mods some where large like adding more limbar holes along the sides, cutting down the Fairwater, changing or moving weapons, etc.   

There is also the mentioned issue of the wood and metal decking.
All the boats had wood around the Fairwater area but the ends is where the metal plating would be used due to to the mentioned wood shortage of due to the commanding officers preference.
In some cases the wood would be replaced with metal during a refit.

Now with the fairwaters there where many different configurations and modifications made as construction progressed and as modifications where carried out during refits.
New and improved equipment added, radar masts moved or added, etc.

Also there is the issue of Gato vs Balao fairwater.
There is a distinct difference in the two that I didn't realize till I was reading Warship in Action.

" A distinct feature of most of the boats of this subclass was the bulge on the starboard face of the bridge "
" The main distinguishing feature of the Balaos was the simplified and more substantial periscope sheers and lower tower without the exposed framing "

In one case a Gato was so badly damaged due to depth charges that it was replaced with a Balao fairwater.

For the boat I plan to depict (USS Bream SS 243) the modifications aren't to great of difference from the Cobia since she was from the same yard and launched just a few months before.
Some modification is required to the fairwater since it had a flared out cigarette deck and cut down sides.
Unfortunately for me there are almost no pictures of the boat I am doing so most of my work is based on only a few small images.
In some ways this is also a blessing so no one can say it's wrong.   

Other things that is missing on the model, exhaust openings on the sides and the ballast tank openings on the bottom.
These to varied by yard and production.

I would suggest not going by the templates a few parts suppliers are offering as from reading on other forums these templates are wrong.
Build groups as well as yards had different arrangements, shapes and sizes.

Rokket was kind enough to sent me a template for the openings which I traced onto my hull but to make sure that I know what is open and what is a cover and also to make sure it's the correct configuration I just placed an order for blueprints with Floating Drydock.
I hope to receive them with in a week.
The openings on the bottom in some cases where open free flood where others had valves since they where used for both fuel storage and ballast tanks.

Also many of the boats didn't have or removed the prop guards.
If your boat does have them than make sure you put the correct type on since these varied by make as well.

I think that covers most of the things I have found.
I'm still learning a lot about the boats, one of the reasons it's taken me almost 2 years before starting this project.

Cheers
Eric...

[Rokket]

Great Info Eric, and pix, haven't seen many of those before. Your passion and excitement certainly show thru. You mention few pix almost a god thing re: accuracy - that's similar to Mike Keeting's logic - build the boat how you want, and one day a vet or historian will come by and say "THAT's the SS XXX! Lovely" - then you can name it!

From my reading the early boats didn't do the shared fuel/ballast. I think it was one of the first mods, making up a year but would say '43?. And either Dick O'Kane or Eugene Flukey (memory - wish I had one!) mentions sending men in to them when fuel was empty, to make conversion back to straight ballast. talks about neoprene gaskets! (Guess it was first in lab in early thirties). If I had more a brain I could give you better details, but will try to rifle thru some books.

Anyhow, great stuff, thanks for sharing, please keep it up and keep us posted on the build.

[bill_c]

Looking on the Accurate Model Parts site, there is a very detailed document about converting an EB Gato to a Mare Island/Portsmouth one. In a nutshell, it seems like a total pain in the ass with LOTS of scratchbuilding. My question is: will the AM upgrades on the market handle the job, or is this a real lifetime project, LOL!?? 

[Rokket]

Hi Bill,

Portsmouth Limber holes with roundover and rivets are in the works. Actually just adjusting and tweaking now. that's the biggest thing in the conversion. But it will eb a litle while. Meanwhile the Gato torpedo shutters are out. They are suitable for EB and Portsmouth. The stern Portsmouth shutter will be out...one day, as PE. Just starting work on the Balao shutters (flat and and angled), they should be out pretty quick, maybe a few weeks.

[Division 6]

You can always do what I am doing, start working on the fairwater first till the parts you need become available.
I've already put off working on my boat for almost 2 years waiting to see what AM parts would become available.

It's a real shame that tons of stuff is out there for the U-Boots but almost nothing for the Gato/Balao/Tench.
Even figure wise there are only a few sets out there compared to the dozens of German.


For the record I have nothing against the German Boats, my first sub was the U-99.
Eventually I intend to build another one.

Eric...

[aurora-7]

I figure the U-Boat war is a more popular historical subject than the pacific submarine war. Churchill himself had said the only thing that had frightened during the war were the U-Boats.

It'd be great if here in the US we could get an American version of 'Das Boot', but then it was the tragic results of the war for U-Boat crews that made the concept of the story interesting.

We  have not had a good WWII US sub movie since 'Run Silent, Run Deep'.

I just got my AMP torpedo shutters and IBS Gato fittings today (Very nice instruction sheet, rokket!). They IBS parts look fine for use on my project but there are so many parts, I'm not sure what they all are. The IBS instruction sheet is a bit light.

[bill_c]

In the interim, I have found some information, including the Nautilus conversions to make the Gato into the Wahoo.

http://nautilusmodels.com/orderpage-USA.htm

Which raises an interesting question: at what point in the war did the US switch from black paint on its subs to gray? Photos of the Wahoo all seem to be black.

[Division 6]

From what I have read some boats stayed black though out the war.
The Wahoo was sunk in October 1943.

Looking at the Ship Camouflage site it appears that they started using MS 32/9SS-B (grey and black) in 1944.
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/gato_class.htm



Eric...

[bill_c]

That's a great site, Eric.

It looks as though one can generalize somewhat to say Gatos were mostly black, Balaos and Tenches tended to be gray & black.

How does one find those colors? The White Ensign color palatte has #9 as "Thayer Blue."

[Division 6]

This document may help.
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/SS/1944JulySSCamouflage.html
Some nice illustrations.

Some stuff I have notes on.

Black System for Subs
Entire above waterline black 82 all parts visible from the air.

Till early 1940 above waterline was standard #5 Navy Grey (Pearl Harbor PH Blue or Black)
PH or Pearl Harbor Blue was experimental, unfortunately it was not color fast and would turn milky very quickly.
I just read that the Navy is once again trying the color out.
I've even seen bright blue and green on a nuc in Lt blue water. 

June 1942 Measure 10 - 5.0 Ocean Grey

Mid 1944 Measure 32/3SSB (Lt Camo)
Black all horizontal surfaces
Vertical surfaces having a grades series of greys ranging from lt grey to black from bow to stern

Measure 32/9SSB used a darker range of greys.
More effective for surface ops in clear weather and while submerged.

Deck weathering from gloss black after 6 weeks of salt water, spray and sun decks would bleach to a slate grey, somewhat blotched.

So there are a few different "Grey" schemes that the boats could have had.


Modeling colors
Dull Black - Flat Black
Non Skid Black - Semi Gloss Black

Not sure on the greys but White Ensign probably does have the correct colors.
Probably Ocean or Haze Greys.

Look though this forum to see what others have used also Fine Scale, Sub Committee, Hyper Scale.


Eric...

[Division 6]

Well it appears that to view the Fleet Boat section over on Sub Committee you now have to be a "PAYING MEMBER".
They seem to be going the same way Sub Pirates did closing off everything unless you pay to see it.

Oh well, Nothing going on there anymore and I've already read everything at least twice.
Shrugs and walks away.

Eric...

[Rokket]

Sad and strange to hear. We'll just have to beef it up over here!