U-129 late configuration

[Trust_but_verify]

Hello everyone, I've been looking for alternate options for my revell u-505 kit build.  U-129 seems like a good possibility since she was assigned to the same flotilla and departed on her last patrol just 6 days after 505 left on hers.  I'm guessing both boats would have been in very similar configurations but am having a hard time confirming it. I've found several pictures of 129 in her early war form but I was wondering if anyone had a picture of her in 1944.  Any help or thoughts would be much appreciated.


All the best
Sam

[dougie47]

Hello Sam,

I don't recall seeing a photo of U 129 in late war configuration but with everything at the moment I am unable to go through all my books. When U 129 left on her final patrol in March 1944 the boat may very well have been in the same configuration as U 505 and that might be a good time frame for your model.

U 129 did return from the final patrol and then was fitted with a schnorchel in July / August 1944 (so the boat did not have a schnorchel on her final patrol).

Cheers,

Dougie

PS Hope everyone is staying well. Sorry we have had to shut AMP production but I am sure you understand why.

[AndrewTSM]

It's pretty hard to find boats in their late war configuration, the photos are rare, I spent quite some time looking and settled with U-515. Trust me I've been through hell and back looking.

[Trust_but_verify]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate the input.  515 seems like a good option too.  I had also considered 510 but it seems that she had the armored shelters built up around the conning tower, so that would require a fair bit of surgery to the kit.

[AndrewTSM]

Yes, I am trying to find pictures of those armored shelters, called kohlenkastens, I've been scavengering the internet for them for a while. I have a few but I'll have to put a watermark on them because they are products from the U-boat museums digital archive.

[AndrewTSM]

I know where you can get photos of U-129, ask Luc Braeuer he makes books about the U-boat bases of France and other books on U-boats, I saw a good photo of U-515 here that when I asked where it came from I was told from one of his books. I don't have any of his books at the moment personally but I've seen glimpses of them and they contain many of those rare late war photos of U-boats that you wouldn't find on the internet. So email him because if anyone has photos of U-129 from 1944 its him.


His email: grand-blockhaus@wanadoo.fr

Do it you won't regret it.

Btw, there's alot of surgery to do to the kit anyway if you want to make it accurate as possible, there's a lot especially if you want to do a different boat i.e: different hand bar placement on the conning tower different arrangement of drain holes... I can list them all, maybe you don't care for all that but I've researched the IXC's more than most people in that regard even for this forum and if you want me to go through all of it then I will. The IXC's are quite underrated.

Oh, do get back to me if you get anything.

[Trust_but_verify]

Thanks for the lead! I e-mailed Mr. Braeuer and I'll let you know if I hear anything back.  Advanced Modeler Syndrome is truly a terrible sickness, I've been dragging my feet on starting this kit for a long time as I've tried to figure out what exactly I want to do with it and how far I want to go in terms of opening the drain holes and building a pressure hull. 

[AndrewTSM]

I am going to go through all the things that you can do with the kit to make it more accurate anyway. I don't know why I never made a post on this earlier, you seem really dedicated and I want to see these implementations in someones work, no offence to people here but a lot of stuff is missing, I'm a little crazy, but yea.


1. The Flak magazine containers on the deck. The border walls enclosing them are too thick thin them down or even replace with a strip of brass or something.The stantions on the hatch of the containers are inverted on the starboard side. I recommend you get an extra triple container piece from Revell and take off the 3rd container. Personally I'm going get this in 3D print because they're pretty dull on the kit anyway. With original 3 rows of containers on the port side I'd recommend taking off the 3rd container, U-505 is distinct having this extra container, If/when designing this replacement deck don't put that blank area where it should sit of course, also the border of the containers vary from the D shape on the U-505 and U-190 and the oval style illustrated here on U-879, this is already in Dougie's article of U-505, and I'm sure you have spotted this already, but yea.



2. The number of the planks on the conning tower wintergarten on the kit are incorrect, there are 21 planks going across the thinner section of the lower conning tower on Revell kit when in real life there are 32, I've checked multiple boats and this is correct. The correct values are 56 on the top platform or 50 because I discovered that the width of the top platform on the Turm IV's on IXC&IXC/40 boats came in 2 sizes actually 3, and boats got upgraded during the war, this is observed on U-889. The style on U-190 has is the wider one and different than U-505's, there appear to be 7 planks protruding out as opposed to 3 on U-505, also the very wide platforms have the anti-slip strips. the platforms were built shorter when the Turm IV for IXC&IXC/40 boats was first introduced. The shorter ones don't have those conical support stantions underneath the wings and the extended platforms flail out at the end on the original construction of the first platform. If the boat has a short platform then it won't have any locking stantions for the Flak guns something I observed. Anyway the number of planks across the rear Flak platform is 46 but some have stop at the very ends with solid wooden blocks. If you know how to make simple 3D print designs I recommend you make a replacement this way.





3. On the U-505 kit the periscope hull thingy, I don't know what its called... has both those flood holes on either side planked up. On no U-boat is this the case. I recommend you correct this also you can see how platform floor doesn't merge with it and ends of on a wall sounding the perimeter you can surround this with some brass or something. Also there's the lookout platform, Eduards PE kit includes one but it rests right down on it, not up in the air with supports, so I recommend you take some brass strips and solder them on the bottom or use CVA.
A bit extreme but you can see how this structure seems to have a seam down the middle would be a nice touch to put it. There's are probably some bits and bobs that differ on 129's in other aspects like that round hole, it may not be there, check on photos of U-129. the walls of the periscope shafts are also quite thin which is why I recommend 3D printing this entire thing, shouldn't be difficult to design.



4. The wave deflector on the side has a rung in it. Also it seems a bit blunt and short on the kit and in real life is much more sharp on the edge and around the edge it looks like the effect as if you were to put a wire around it. Also the wind deflector can vary in length and slightly in shape, it's also quite thick on the Revell kit and surprisingly nobody has made it for an aftermarket set.



5. The FuMO box has a bunch of stantions in it and you can also take note that the wood planks seem to be pinned on horizontal stantions, something also to note is rails end with different plates with 3 bolts, the mouth of this box is rounded at the back unlike the kit too also those small 4 holes at the top are on many other boats too, this is not damage, the outer edge of the box is curved in a bit aswell unlike the kit too.



6. On most U-boats in late 1943 the A bar stantion was removed, also the rudders are pretty simple on the Revell kit.



7. I'd recommend you round the front of the boat a bit and add a round wire on the entrance around of the towing pipe, also there's a small little hole below it that you can drill out, the kit is missing it. Also there's a small oval plate about 25cm on port side of the nose of the boat.




8. The hull around the top torpedo tubes are cut in, I thought this was how it was supposed to be but then I looked at U-534 and thought this might not be right and then I saw photos of U-505 with her torpedo tube doors still installed on the top tubes and YES they don't compliment this cut. The draught marks on the hull are cut in if you look. Was probably done by the museum for people to be able to see the tubes, when I went to the museum and saw the 505 I imagined visualized it uncut and it would be pretty hard to see the tube if it were, even though the tubes were closed on the boat originally on display, maybe they were open at a point...



9. The compass housing has a hatch on the top, this is missing from the kit, in addition some hatches have drain holes, there are a few different styles not many, some no holes at, some round holes down the centre, some with 2 row of rounds holes, some with 2x3 vertical holes etc. I'll show some. I don't know if they replaced entire Turm I's on boats or modified them to the Turm IV, but I think the former because these hatches seem to stay the same with my photos of U-515. Which are actually 2 of those pictures.



10. The railings need to be changed, the railing on U-505 were unique as I've discovered, most other U-boats have the same type of railings with a standardized arrangement of rungs, however different series of U-boats have a few different styles of rail ends, luckily U-534 has these types of railings. On the left U-534 sports the rail end that belongs from I think U-508 to U-550. On the right U-128, yes 128, has the style of rail ending of IXC & IXC/40 U-boats in the U-100's and has the standard arrangement of the railing rungs found on mid to late war boats.




11. The forward flood holes, or whatever they are, the ones that you see on the U-534 and most IXC/40 U-boats were actually put on many regular IXC's too!

Down Below U-515, U-154 both regular IXC's with these holes.




12. The Flak 38 cannons muzzle cap was augmented later in the war.

They have slant cut in them, this appears on the U-505, this augmentation was introduced about late 1943 I think.
You can observe this style on the U-889 aswell that is above. Also you can observe matt areas on the barrels, I don't know what makes it look that way, but this is regardless of the style.




I'll point out everything else in this photo...



Oh btw, SAND DOWN ALL THE DAMN RIVETS! THEY'RE HUGE! Here are some of my photos that I took from my visit...




The other stuff I'm sure you've come across in the forum. You probably got on some of this stuff already I can tell but yea. Here's a photo of U-129 from a plane that attacked it on its last patrol, from the U-boot archive though I'm sure you've dug deep, far beyond this.




I think I can make out a deckgun


Cheers!

[SG]

Wow, Excellent research! Congrats  . Don't say the word "gun", (!) that's a bad word for me 

[AndrewTSM]

Maybe Dougie can implement some of this stuff into his article.

[dougie47]

Hi Andrew,

Great research, there are some points I hadn't thought of.

In the 1950s during transit U 505 had locks between the rear of the torpedo doors and the hull plating. It was in the area you put the red X on point 8. I don't know if this contributed to the museum cutting away the hull plating just behind the upper torpedo doors.

Keep up the excellent work.

Cheers,

Dougie

[AndrewTSM]

Thank You! Btw do you happen to have any of Luc Braeuer's books? I asked SG about the one about Lorient from 1942 to 1943, but I don't think he has the one about Lorient that goes from 43' to 45'?


I'm really trying to find pictures of Kohlenkastens, I've collected these photos thus far...






I have a few more, but yea...They should make a U-boot in focus for late war IXC's there's very little light shed on them.

Do you have any pictures of the U-505 kit that has the Pontos AM set?

[dougie47]

Hi Andrew,

I was looking through photos and came across the following three photos of the VIIC U 377. It is not a IX but you might find them interesting. The second image shows the port side from the rear and it may show the doors to the scuttle? It looks like there is some form of access at the top and at the side. Interested to see what you think.

The third image is from the front and only shows this on the bottom right hand corner.







I have Braeuer's first two books but not the later ones.

Cheers,

Dougie

[SG]

Thank You! Btw do you happen to have any of Luc Braeuer's books? I asked SG about the one about Lorient from 1942 to 1943, but I don't think he has the one about Lorient that goes from 43' to 45'?

Correct. I only have the first two books, plus the ones about St Nazaire and Brest. I checked these last ones for type IXs with Kohlenkastens but found nothing worth.

[NZSnowman]

Dougie, that is the round thing in the side wall?

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

The round thing is for, I think, the mast antenna. The bit which protruded out of the tower walls differed between boats.

Cheers,

Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Hi Simon,

The round thing is for, I think, the mast antenna. The bit which protruded out of the tower walls differed between boats.

Cheers,

Dougie

Must be the HF Antenna?

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,

I'm not altogether sure. It looks similar to the telescopic rod antenna that was present on many early boats. Robert Stern says the telescopic rod antenna was used to receive short wave transmissions and was used to supplant the main antenna cable fore and aft of the tower.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Trust_but_verify]

That is some fantastic research, thank you so much for sharing!  Mr Braeuer  was extremely helpful and was able to find the attached photo of 129 abandoned at Lorient in 1945.  unfortunately I haven't been able to find any close ups of the tower to shed light on the configuration of the ammo containers and railings.

[AndrewTSM]

That's a good one! Anymore?

[AndrewTSM]

Well the container's look like D shaped ones and I think they're most like likely 2x2.

[AndrewTSM]

You can also ask the u-boat museum, u-boot recherche if there are any non-digitalised photos of U-129, they have many photos just they aren't all available online, i asked them about this and they are more than happy to look, however amidst Corona noone is there, so you'd have to wait.

[AndrewTSM]

What I can tell is that the railings on the outside of the lower wintergarten are lower than those circular drain holes and the drain holes are higher, this is already a difference from the U-505 and is the same for the U-515. You can see on the U-505 that these railings are above these holes and the holes themselves seem slightly lower.

[Trust_but_verify]

Sadly that was the only one he was able to find of her post war. Good call on the position of the flood holes in relation of the railings.  I also notice that there appears to be a conical support under the upper platform just like on 505, but I cant make out any evidence of a barrel container below it.  Also, what are your thoughts on the dark faring half way up the front of the tower?  Maybe a bracket for a snorkel? 


Another interesting bit is that the railings appear to be painted a different color than the rest of the tower and upper hull.  I havent seen that in other boats.

[AndrewTSM]

Snorkel, probably not. Maybe it was never fitted with a 37mm gun, I can't make out a guard rail that was installed to boats with 37mm's to prevent their traverse. Do contact the museum though when things go back to normal.