Photo Etched for type IIA 1/72 or IIB 1/144

[Oto Gerza]

Tady je můj nový projetct pro U-loď typu IIA 1/72

[dougie47]

Hello gentlemen,
I wonder if you could help us. For customers who have bought the AMP Type IIA set 7201, I would be grateful if you could take a few minutes to compare the floods and the deck design on our set (released several years ago) to Oto's new set. For our friends who haven't bought our set, you can compare decks simply by downloading the AMP plan at -
http://amp.rokket.biz/docs/amp7201_typeII_plan.pdf
Oto has conveniently posted a file showing his design on this thread making any comparison very easy. It should not take you too long to spot the "similarities". Just to be clear, with the exception of the U-Brass set, AMP has not authorised anybody else to use our designs. Our philosophy is to share our research information but we obviously do not share our product designs with anyone.
Please feel free to post any comments on this thread.
Oto, I think you owe us an explanation.
Regards,
Dougie

[dougie47]

Hello again gentlemen,
This is getting somewhat tiresome now. Please see another of Oto's products -
http://www.rcsubs.cz/index.php/80-uvod/88-photo-etched-for-revell-type-viic-viic41-05015
It should look familiar to anyone who bought the U-Brass / WEM floods set.
Oto - it looks like the torpedo doors on the bow piece have been reduced to a narrower width than the Revell kit. Can you tell me what width the doors are on your set? And if they are reduced from the Revell width, what photographs did you use? And what calculations did you do? White Ensign Models now sell the U-Brass set so I will be letting them know of the "similarities".
Oto - how did you design the floods at the rear? What photos of what boats did you use? They look the same as the Modelbrass pieces. The Modelbrass and your design both have small errors (the same small errors) so it would be interesting to see how you arrived at your design.
Regards,
Dougie
 

[GlennCauley]

Hello Dougie,

After comparing Oto's products to the AMP Type IIA detail set, Modelbrass set, and U-Brass/WEM floods set, I have the following observations:

• The stern lower flood vents on Oto's VIIC set are nearly identical to Modelbrass (though there may be some VERY MINOR differences to make them not exactly the same).
• The bow torpedo door "cheek" pieces on Oto's VIIC set are nearly identical to U-Brass (though there may be some VERY MINOR differences to make them not exactly the same).
• Many of the major items on Oto's Type IIA set -- main deck, flooding hole templates, etc. -- seem to be nearly identical to the AMP set, though the outline drawings DO show some very minor difference to make them not exactly the same.

[Oto Gerza]

good day
Type VIIC.
This building is a friend of mine who builds from modelbrass.
these photos are a model with modelbrass
I have other etchings. even I have two versions of the flooding chamber.
I have chosen here to move the anchor.
Fork, which are the building are actually modellbrass. Building from my friend.
Now I am building type VIID. Then here I have pictures on my etchings and flooding chamber.
  I can say that you were looking at my etchings type VIIC that I had before.






photos that are on my site from building submarines are directly modellbrass.
My displacement chambers are different.
Sample of buildings are directly modellbrass yes. this building is my friend.
http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=176&t=69300




I drew holes flooding and controlled directly through the hull dimension Revell.
I also drew rivets, which are connected to the hull Revell. Modelbrass has no rivets.
I have my Webo showed the sample structure from a friend, and this is directly modellbrass
I do not have my etchings finished yet

There are large differences gentlemen !!!
see second image




I made one mistake that we showed up type VIIC.
It was there for me banned. Is that so?
Therefore, you can delete all my posts here.
But never say that I am someone copied.


Glenn me alone begged me he drew type VIID.
Now I will be here to slander?
I do not understand your actions

[Oto Gerza]

Type IIA
I need to do for this type of deck.
I have drawings of literature and photos.
I have my system the deck and hinges for hatches.
I need this type also railing.
I do not have your home etchings.
For the model also needs holes for hull, because that plastic is bad.
I drew for myself also type VIID and is clear to me that merges type one buys.
We produce mainly for themselves and their friends.
Is this a problem?
I must say that your etchings are also similar to those for my type VIIC.
Some parts of your deck type  VIIC are similar to mine.
Even though I had the first.
Me, but never mind.
I have no home or your product modellbrass.
etchings doing 8 years for submarines type XXIII, XXI and others
  I produce all forms including myself.
I have to stop working?


 So modellbrass you misunderstood my website.
Because I showed up really modellbras and also my etchings, which vary in shape and riveting.


If you think that copy and přeměřuji etchings from another company or from you.
So please delete my account



people my etchings or hulls copy and I had to deal with it.
I draw etchings from beginning to end. I occasionally inspired photos, but that's it.



I first suggested etchings for submarines: IXC, VIIC41, VIID, XXI, XXIII

From what I thus copied deck type?

[Oto Gerza]

I was Deck the first VIIC here.
After 3 months, the company also has a deck AMP
I seem, here also the same parts.
Me, but never mind.
I am doing my etchings, for my building submarines.

[dougie47]

Oto,
We are not stupid. Your IIA deck is a direct copy of the AMP set, a simple comparison to our pdf file shows you passed it off as your own. We added the pdf file to our website but never believed anybody would be so bold as to actually copy it directly. You have designed some parts yourself but the deck is ours. We spent many months designing the deck entirely from period photos. We did not spend so much time just to have you steal the design. I really do mean steal - you have committed intellectual theft, which is a crime.
Unless you remove your Type IIA set from the market within the next 5 days I will contact Paypal to formally complain that you are selling fraudulent goods and that you have committed intellectual theft of copyrighted material belonging to Accurate Model Parts. I will send them your design and the AMP design and the original kit design. It will take them 10 minutes to arrive at the obvious conclusions. I do not think Paypal will allow you to use their service to sell fraudulent goods.
We will be keeping a close eye on your IIB set. If it simply a scaled down version of the AMP IIA deck then we will go down the Papyal route.
My issue is with the parts in your Type II set that have been copied from us so I am not requesting you stop other designs. However White Ensign Models are friends of ours and I will be speaking by telephone with them tomorrow to tell them about you. They may wish to make an example of you.
You may have been first to the marketplace on the VIIC but our deck design was completed on the 1st July 2013. I have a file (dated 1st July 2013) showing the AMP design. I am not saying you copied our VIIC design but obviously we did not copy yours. If we had copied your design we would have to change our name to Inaccurate Model Parts.
This is not the first time I have had intellectual property stolen so I have had experience in these matters. Wink and I have spoken many times about intellectual theft in the past few years and I can assure you we both take great offence at matters of this nature.
Dougie

[Oto Gerza]

I have nothing done, nothing to download.
Type IIB has a completely different deck! will be after 2015
Type IIA does not yet exist.
Everything will be done in the year 2015.
If this is a problem.
I can adjust the deck
You can then approve? that you had no problems with it?

[dougie47]

Let me get this straight. You produce many sets in a short period of time so you cannot be doing much research. These sets are not for “you and your friends” as you are clearly selling them for profit. Given that brass for U-boats is a tiny market it is obvious that any competition will impact upon us greatly. But you continue to use the AMP forum to sell your products, thus taking away business from us. This is rather annoying. Then you produce a Type II set in 72nd scale, which is of course is a rival for our biggest product, and the one we spent nearly a year on. This becomes really annoying when you advertise this rival product on the AMP forum. However, then it becomes clear that you did not bother to design your IIA deck, rather you downloaded our deck design from the AMP website AND MAKE NO CHANGES. For some reason which I truly cannot grasp you somehow think we won’t notice when you post this on our own forum. I recognised the pattern instantly because we spent months on it.
 
I do not think you understand what you have done. You posted a design advertising a product which you clearly intended to produce in the near future. You have already passed off our work as your own. This is past tense, you have already committed a breach of copyright. There is some element of mitigation but only because we realised the theft and stopped you before you started to sell the set. 
 
Having been forced to publically challenge you (I really have better things to do than this) you backtrack and state “Type IIA does not yet exist.
 Everything will be done in the year 2015.” Well, the design already exists as you have already made the design public. I take it your comment means that you haven’t sold any brass yet?
 
Next you state “If this is a problem.
 I can adjust the deck.
 You can then approve? that you had no problems with it”
 
I remain staggered at your lack of comprehension of the position you have placed yourself in. Let me make it clear so than nothing will be lost in translation. You will NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, adjust the AMP deck design so that you can start selling a cheap rip off of our work. You seem to be under the misapprehension that there will be negotiation involved in this. There will be no negotiation. It is not up to me to approve your designs, I am not a member of your staff. If you do insist upon including a deck then Wink and I will inspect every inch of it, as will others.
 
I cannot see why you would still wish to produce a Type IIA deck, given the present circumstances and the considerable and permanent damage it has done to your reputation. Although we will remove other threads which advertise your work, be advised that this thread will be left on the forum permanently.
 
For the 144th IIB set, it is not our business if you produce this set so long as you do not use the AMP Type II deck as a starting point or steal any element of our deck design.
 
Dougie

[Oto Gerza]

I have no type II  finished, I do not have anything.
I want to build a RC model. I need there to have holes everywhere
I'm at a sketch which is above, he must completely revamp
It will take a month.



If you want I'll send you one deck to check that it is different.
Now I have nothing finished.
I can not send or sell

[dougie47]

Hello Oto,
As long as you don't use any part of the AMP design then it is not our business. Please do not use any of our slots sizes, slot width, distance between slots or any of the patterns. It is natural that there will be a few similarities but I will be able to tell items have been copied.
You are rather fortunate that you did not begin selling your set before we noticed.
Before you do any design work may I suggest that your U-Brass clone set should be your main priority? WEM own the rights to this set and are aware of your product. Please don't try to blame anyone else for this, it was me who informed WEM.
The sizes on your set are identical to the U-Brass / WEM cheek pieces. It is possible for you to arrive at the same conclusions about the sizes as we did. If so then I will allow you the opportunity to explain precisely how you managed to arrive at a 35mm upper door. In other words, what photographs did you use, what books did these photos come from, what mathematical calculations did you make?
Dougie
 

[Oto Gerza]

I am personally of the holes and the dimensions chosen for such an order necessary to cover the openings on the hull Revell.
I drew it and repaired about 10 times. He tried to choose means the size of that overlap the holes on the hull Revell. These holes I made for a friend who will do VIIC41 type, where for this submarine are not available for hull openings.


I personally do not dare to stick these plates on the hull.
It's very hard for bonding and kiting.
I am a template sent his friend. He told me, where are bugs, drew it and send it back. These etchings we form a team in the Czech modelforu. I have long sought the optimal shape for that riveting the hull followed exactly.
of the holes formed more people.
I personally think it will carve by hand into plastic because it is not good for RC model.

[dougie47]

Hello Oto,
You cannot say why the upper doors were 35mm because you (or your friend) obviously did not do any calculations. Despite the language barrier it is very easy to say which photos you looked at. I won't draw this out any further as I think our fellow forum members have now had enough information to make up their mind about your business practices and your theft of intellectual property. I think it might be best for everyone if you don't post any more.
To everyone else, I apologise for the nature of this thread. The AMP forum has always been a friendly place where we can all help each other. In recent days I have been more direct and challenging than normal and I hope I may be forgiven for this approach. I can assure you that this has only been a temporary approach to meet a rather regrettable set of circumstances. Our philosophy has always been to share research (but obviously not our designs) with others and, despite recent events, we will continue this approach by sharing our research via articles etc.
Cheers,
Dougie
 
 
 

[Oto Gerza]

So I was talking with a friend.
These etchings are what we have projects.
Some even want to repaint. they are testing samples. eg the holes for the hull VIIC.
I did it with a friend and even discuss these displacement chambers remake.
It's not a problem.
I then upload a photo here new teaser changes etching holes for type VIIC.
Vom Original zum Modell.
In the test I etching etching of the 4 holes had one bad nedokreslený. It was created so we always one bad etching.
Thanks to this discussion, it will redraw and change it.
Most of the etchings are still testing projects and I have to adjust to be 100%.


I'm glad you pointed this out. I incorporate those changes and will be based on the drawings.

[Oto Gerza]

Here is my calculation of 35 mm.
Anyone who has literature Vom original zum modell it can verify.

[dougie47]

Hello Oto,
Why didn't you post this straight away? You could easily have posted this last night or the night before. Or were you frantically trying to find a plan?
I'm no longer surpised by some of the silly things you have posted and this is another example (this time the palm of my hand involuntarily moved from my mouse and smacked off my forehead in disbelief). You have marked on in red text "34.5mm". You could actually have written 35mm and most folks will have believed you. More importantly, if you measured 34.5mm why did you make your set 35mm?
Your scan is from the small plan in Vom Original book and this makes it difficult to calculate an exact figure. If you had the real plan printed off in 72nd scale you would find in is 34.84cm. (I guess my calculations from period photos must have been 0.16mm off)
It took me an hour to remove all your advertisements and posts last night. I'll leave this one on but any not just for intellectual property theft. In consideration of other members I shall be polite so can I perhaps suggest that you might try rebuilding your reputation elsewhere? 
Dougie
 
 

[Oto Gerza]

I originally due to translation did not know what you mean by 35 mm.
I do not know what is the real dimension to the etching modelbrass. I've never seen this etching live.

A friend told me that Revell has torpedo chamber about 7 mm longer than the reality.
I did not know, and I looked into drawings.
So I did.
I checked it out through drawing vom original zum model and others literatur.
I did not know there Revell has such a mistake.

If I knew exactly what you mean by dimension, now I've put this image.
I'm tired of it here.
I'll say it straight
you my etchings are just a project for my friends and me.
One person from AMP forum begged me he drew type VIID.
I want you also want to build the type of VIID.


conclusion:
Our etchings are a few euro more expensive. Your etchings are cheaper including instructions. So I recommend everyone to buy your etchings AMP.
I'm making the most of his etchings for themselves and their friends here in the Czech Republic.



In our forum consult with friends who do etched part still add and what to change. We make it with others.
Some etched parts are still shortcomings. I still regulates etched deck.
I need to have a deck with holes. RC Submarine better then immersed in water.
When dipping air must leave the deck!
Hand holes it takes me as much time as propose etching.
Openings for hull wanted modellers static model for my friends


I'm here to show my work.
Again, I write my etchings are expensive. The development we put money together with the guys.



I'm sorry that you've deleted my posts hour.
I already do not want to present here.
Otherwise, I wish you much success and modelers here.

[dougie47]

Hello Oto,
We have both had our say so it is time close this thread.
Dougie