AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: Katuna on 22 May , 2019, 15:16
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Ok, here's my next question. It's also my most pressing as it is holding me up from truly getting rolling on my build.
Can someone please explain the LO tanks located under each engine? I've looked at several 3D renderings as well as all the usual line drawings but I can't seem to wrap my head around them. It appears the frame ribs pass through the tanks. Is this true? Below I have attached a couple 3D drawings. These are from the Sim Sub forum. Please forgive me, I can't remember who they belong to. I also can't determine if the center holding tanks for the waste oil is one large, compartmentalized tank or if it has frame ribs dividing them too. It appears to be one tank with dividers.
The Trumpeter kit is supplied with the ribs on the Port side (where you can't really see them) and nothing on the Stbd. side where the cut away is. Ass-backwards! I've duplicated the ribs on the Stbd. but I want to install the tanks too. Any help would be extremely appreciated!
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Nice 3D pics.
Fyi
My engine room Wip
I used the original ribs as the back ones cant be seen
I cut the back off the one Engine and made a mirror image front engine
Presently working on the Clutches.
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AARRRRG! Raymic, that's EXACTLY what I have planned! Now I'm gonna look like a copycat. I also moved the rear ribs to the front but I did make duplicates for the back.
I was going to cast the lower sides of the engine and make up the block but I couldn't get a good flat copy so I realized the same thing you did. You can't see the back side of the kit engine anyway. Well, I guess I'll just sit back and let you do all the hard thinking. It looks great by the way.
Great minds think alike, eh? Now it's on...
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I don`t know the Trumpeter kit, but in real life, most of the details of a submarine have a purpose. Both MAN and Germaniawerft dieselengines used in the VIICs have a dry oilsump, hence they need a sumptank. The tanks are situated between the two engines and the port and stb. luboilpumps are independently connected to each relevant sumptank. As you probably know the frames of the VIICs are numbered from aft to fwd., in the engine room this means that frame 18 is just passing the centerline of the main clutch, and the location of the tanks between the engines are: between frame 18 and 19 dirty luboil tank storage for discarded oil, frame 19-21, port sumptank, frame 21- 25, stb. sumptank and finally a fuel oil draintank collecting the fuel leakages from the engines. These tanks have all a solid bottom and top and are separated by liquid tight bulkheads. underneath the engines are the lubeoil storage tanks 1 and 2. they contains the fresh luboil for topping up if needed. The frames goes right through these tanks and the reason for that is to reduce the free surface effect which might upset the trim, hence the frames act like an important baffle in the tank system. You have cuttings in the baffles allowing free flow to the pump suction pipes. If you wander why these intricate collecting tanks, they are not an early environment action, but prevent a pollution of the bilge and thus the risk of a treacherous trail of oil on the surface.
Tore
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tore - Thank you so much. You answered my long sought after question of the construction of the fresh oil tanks, specifically as to whether the frame ribs passed through the tank. The center, dirty/waste oil tank is a solid tank with internal dividers. Got it!
Now I can finally start rolling forward with my build. No more excuses.
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What would these electrical warnings at either end of the center tank been fore? An interesting detail to emulate, for sure. Just curious what would have been running though those particular areas.
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Not sure of the signs.
Most likely static warning for flammable oils.
However that Yellow signage is fairly modern NATO I think.
SO [size=78%]I don't think it was a WW2 era? [/size]
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Here's my center oil tank roughed in. Just needs piping and some bolt detail, probably never to be seen again. I also corrected the center connecting frames that Trumpeter managed to incorrectly locate (shocker!).
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A number of modelbuilders use the museums submarine U 995 as a reference for their build. Unfortunately a number of details does not match with the original U 995. Like the schnorkel, colours in the engine room, a few details on the hydroplanes, lightings, blinding of the floodgates, wooden casing deck etc, etc. Alterations are made for visitors security reasons as well as easy and cheaper maintenance. I would advice to be careful in copying the details of the U-995 museum remembering she served under different flags and time. I have seen weathering beautifully made copying the deep pitting and groves in the pressurehull, that would never be approved for a frontline submarine, likewise copied the rain gutters fitted on the casing underneath the floodgates of the museums U-995 to prevent rustbleeding marks. To make a correct model takes a lot of research to have an accurate model. U 995 which primarily did her war patrols above the artic circle and Barentz sea was laying alongside for maintenance and installing a snort in Trondheim at the end of the war, thus never sailed with a snort during the war. In my time she was a frontline Nato submarine pretty much like the wartime execution. After my time she was used as a training and research vessel. I have noticed quite a few installations unknown to me, some times US made, which obviously derives from the latter periode. Allthough I am sure that some of the sensitive materials have been removed prior to handing over the U-995, a few empty boxes might have been left. I can not remember ever seen the box shown on the Trumpeter building kit. The automatic main switches for the aft battery 1 and fwd battery 2 are situated in a locker stb side between the crews WC and engineroom bulkhead and on port side between the controlroom bulkhead and CO`s cabin respectively. I don`t think the markings indicate a tank with inflammable liquid.
Tore
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Thanks Tore for your unique and very valuable insights.
Yes I had noticed the Trumpeter kit was wrong. Those boxes above the clutches are just placed whilst roughing out the kit.
The Trumpeter kit is woefully inaccurate but is fun to build but some artistic licence is needed as some parts are just too hard to rectify with my skills and patience.....
For example the control room bulkhead walls don't have any curve
Always appreciate your advice. Thanks
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I saw other modelers add those channels and wondered what they were for. Thought they were a neat detail to add. Glad I'm not at that point yet! Thanks for the info. I knew about the corrosion of the hull in its current condition versus an actual front line boat. Will actually have to go backwards on the weathering of the Trumpy model.
Does a photo exist of the components of the Automatic Battery Control cabinet? I would love to add that detail but I've come up empty scouring the interweb for a single pic. I guess if nothing exists, a little creative license could be in order. It's just a handful of large frame shunting mags.
"Woefully inaccurate" perfectly describes this kit but, in that inaccuracy it lends itself perfectly to the super detail modeler. I'm game! Here's my start on the Engine Room frame ribs and LO tanks. I need to make a cradle to hold it while I add piping and such.
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If any Mod could correct my "woefully inaccurate" photo posting, I would appreciate it :o
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I saw other modelers add those channels and wondered what they were for. Thought they were a neat detail to add. Glad I'm not at that point yet! Thanks for the info. I knew about the corrosion of the hull in its current condition versus an actual front line boat. Will actually have to go backwards on the weathering of the Trumpy model.
Does a photo exist of the components of the Automatic Battery Control cabinet? I would love to add that detail but I've come up empty scouring the interweb for a single pic. I guess if nothing exists, a little creative license could be in order. It's just a handful of large frame shunting mags.
"Woefully inaccurate" perfectly describes this kit but, in that inaccuracy it lends itself perfectly to the super detail modeler. I'm game! Here's my start on the Engine Room frame ribs and LO tanks. I need to make a cradle to hold it while I add piping and such.
I have looked through my files and found an image from Falo of the automatic no2 main battery switch locker situated on port side between the controlroom bulkhead and the aft bulkhead of the COs cabin, I have no image of the switch inside the locker. As to your engine foundation please be aware of the two main engines are not parallel but are tapered so the aft part of the propellershafts have a bigger centerlinedistance eg the shaft systems is tapered a few degrees towards the bow. If of interest I might be able to figure out how much, I can`t remember off hand. The piping in the engine room is very complex and require a lot of work. If you have further questions and convenient to you it would save me time if you put forward your questions in my mailbox, I shall be happy to answer if I can.
Tore
Tore
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Tore - Thanks again! I was asking these questions here so that the answers would be seen by other builders such as Raymic but I totally understand. I can always post info from you, with your permission of course.
I had seen one pic of that ABC cabinet somewhere (not that one). That was the single red bolt I was speaking of for electrical hazards.
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Here's the engine angle (which Trumpeter doesn't take into account). I realized I made the same mistake when you mentioned it. The best laid plans...something something. It's a subtle angle so I may be able to cheat it just a little.
Drawing by Simon (NZsnowman).
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Just a couple of shots of the LO tanks. I need to find out how they were plumbed. I'm sure there were clean out hatches in the top too. More research.
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The lube- oilsystems in the lubeoiltanks varies depending of the type of mainengine, Krupp Germaniawerft or MAN, like wise the building year of the submarine, as the VIICs before appr. 1942 were equipped with a lubeoil centrifuge cleaning plant connected to the tanks. Hence you have to decide which submarine is your model, before you start making the relative complex piping of the lube oil system. Further the luboilsystem is an intergrated part of the servomotor for the governor of the engine as well as a branch to the supercharger.
Tore
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I know what you mean. Hopefully I can decipher this plate from U-570 to get a better idea. U-570 was built around the same time as U-371 so it's about the closest I can get.
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The U-371 was one of the early VIICs so I guess she was equipped with a direct reversible GW engine and a lubeoil centrifuge plant and plan 14 would be relevant. As you shall see a substantial part of the system is on the main engine. The system works as follows. The engine attached luboilpump draws lubeoil from the relevant sytemtank, the pipe (turquoise) has a NR.valve and a cock operated from the deckplates before entering the suction inlet of the gear luboilpump. As you have a direct reversible engine, the gearpump works for both ways of rotation. Just before entering the lubeoil pump, the pipe has a small valveconnection to the high pressue luboil pipe, going aft to the servomotor of the governor. The pumpdischarge pipe (red) passes over the torsional vibration damper cover at the front of the engine to a shut off valve (b) right before a valvechest, distributing the oil via a filter to the luboilcooler (using seawater). Going through the cooler, the oil is discharged at the bottom to a three way cock in a cross over pipe having connection (shut) to the stb. lubeoilsystem. Right after a smaller pipe (high pressure) branch off to the afterpart of the engine to the servomotor for the governor.The smaller yellow pipes are the drainpipes from the cooler, pumpdischarge and the lubeoil pressurereducing valve (3-1,5 kg/cm2) fitted at the front of the engine. From the reducing valve the lubeoil pipe goes aft along the engine with branch off pipes to each mainbearing, torsional vibration damper, camshaft and supercharger. From the drainconnections on the main engine the drains (yellow) goes to the drain distribution box on top of the relevant systemtank and to the tank
Tore
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FYI Katuna
Gave the Engine a quick coat of dark color. It may not stay. You like the pistons?
cheers
Raymic
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Tore - That is a lot of info to digest. I'm not sure I can achieve that amount of detail in 1/48 scale but I shall endeavor to make you proud, sir. I've been working with some of the 3D drawings of the piping to determine what each pipe is and where it goes. It's quite a bowl of spaghetti down there.
Raymic - Wow, those look great! Sure makes a difference to the look and feel of the engine room.
I've decided that I won't be doing the Stbd. engine but instead focus on the piping, underdeck and overhead details. We're hitting our first 100F day here so it's time to move indoors for the next 4 months. It's good superdetailing weather.
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Katuna, feel free to use my infos to your hearths desire. When you have digested my story just put forward your next questions.
Tore
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Mr Tore
So in this fictional movie set for DAS BOOT, the engineers have lifted up the walkway and working underfloor at Crankshaft level.
They must be inside a Supply Tank??,so would they drain it first?
In the movie I think they were repairing the Crankshaft or the Piston connecting rod bearings? ( I would have to watch it again...great excuse!!)
Mr Tore, is this possible or is it fictional that they portray? thanks
PS: I cant find a photo but I'm sure I may have seen a similar REAL scene.
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Hi Katuna,
why don't you open your specic thread about the Type VIIC you are building ?
Cheers.
Filippo
P.S. : I'm looking at your model with great interest ( also the Raymic's one ...)....
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Raymic.
Interesting observation. The excellent movie Das Boot shows a correct situation. One of the weaknesses of the GW dieselengine was the crankpin bearings, contrary to todays technique the bearings were white metal cast in a fairly thick steelshell and were susceptible to loosing the bond between the steel bearing shell and the white metall, resulting in cracking. This required a new bearingshell which had to be scraped in using blue colouring, a time consuming job. The crankcasedoors of the GW engine were fairly large ending some 10 cm below the floorplating, thus you had to remove same to have access. If you look at the posted image of the engine you shall see the luboil drain flange of the dry sump which is about the highest possible place for the topplate for the systemtanks, hence you have some 500-600 mm extra space if you removed the floorplating and using the tanktop as floor, a few extra pipes were not in the way. This was much more comfortable for a tedious job like scraping a big end bearing shell, I have done that quite a few times, even polishing the crankpin journal. Very observant Raymic.
Tore
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Filippo - I was thinking about doing that. I wasn't sure if there were dedicated build threads on here but I will put one together. It's interesting to see how different modelers approach the same subject. I watch your build updates with great interest. Your level of detail is amazing.
I hope your wife is doing better. Our prayers go out to her.
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Tore - Be careful how much help you offer, I may just take you up on it!
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Hi all you guys who needs my infos, as the laws of nature I`m not 25 anymore, but have passed the 90, hence my systems works a bit slower than it used to do. It would help me a lot if you put forward the questions in my mailbox leaving me to only one thread to deal with. Just shoot and I`ll try to answer.
Tore
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Here's the LO system info as per Tore.
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So, the chamber below the table top. Trying to figure out if this is original to the boat or post-war. Is it a filter or a heat exchanger? To me it looks like the later but you can't see enough of it to be sure.