Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 576383 times)

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Offline karel

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3510 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 06:47 »
Hi Tore.


Can you tell me  how did the crew know when the boat was in balance? I am looking trough panorama pictures and cannot seem to find any indicators that would show this kind of information.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3511 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 08:31 »

Karel.
Getting the submarine in balance can be many things, in fact a VIIC submarine was very seldom in 100% ballance as temperature, watersalininty and the daily life of 46 men altered the parameters all the time. The first step would be to calculate the estimated deadweight and adjust the regulating tanks accordingly prior to the test diving. At the first testdiving you checked how close your calculation was and made adjustment by the regulating tanks checking the Papenberg depth gauge. The alongship trim was checked by the inclinometer and adjusted by the forward and aft trimtanks, and a possible atwartship list was checked by a simple inclinometer weigth hanging on the atwart bulkhead and adjust the port and starboard regulatingtanks. Down below I have made an image of the systems. Next to the Papenberg column we had an image of the periscope so you could see the position of same relative to the seawatersurface. On some submarines you even had an image of the schnorchelmast top relative to the seasurface. You very seldom was "hanging" motionless in perfect ballance, mostly the balance ( within limits) was kept dynamically by speed and hydroplanes.
Tore
« Last Edit: 07 Mar , 2017, 02:09 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3512 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 08:32 »
Hi Karel,

check this thread.

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Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3513 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 11:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore and All,


Does anybody have good photos of the Aux Water Cooling Pump/Transfer Pump in the diesel room, and the Water Cooling Pump for the e-motor bearings and thrust bearing cooling? Mine are not too good...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3514 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 11:46 »

Hi Don,

Does anybody have good photos of the Aux Water Cooling Pump/Transfer Pump in the diesel room, and the Water Cooling Pump for the e-motor bearings and thrust bearing cooling? Mine are not too good...


Check your mailbox. The electrically driven cooling water pump in the aft torpedo room (behind the main switchboard port) was also used (primary) to cooling E-motors (or to be more strict, cooling the air used to cooling the motors) and cooling (and lubricating) the shaft strut bearings.


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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3515 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 15:23 »

Don.
I guess you mean the aux. coolingwater pump on stb side, forward end of the main engine. Which is a vertical centrifugal pump of Odesse, Oscherleben type G 80/180 capacity 800 l/min against 3 kg/cm2. Unfortunately I have no photo of same. Might be you are able to find an image on the net.
The centrifugal coolingwaterpump in the e-room is of a different type than the stb aux. coolingwaterpump in the engine room  as it operate against a higher head, 12 kg/cm2. The reason is cooling of the propeller shaft seals,main thrustbearings , aircoolers and bearings of the E-motors/generators. Make Klein, Schanzlin & Becker. The pump is on the image below.
The aux. luboil/ fuel transferpump is of a vertical screw pump make Leistritz, Nuremberg. Capacity 38m3 against 50m WC. Suction 5m WC.
The lubeoil system plate 14 has a wrong icon for the aux lubeoil/ fueltransferpump marked as a centrifugal pump, below I have made a correction.The reason for using a screwpump for the lubeoil/ fuel is a centrifugal pump create cavitation and gas bubbles in the oil. Most probably the screw pump would be a triple screwpump having one center drive spindle and two outer idle.. The manufacturer is still in existence and on their webside you`ll find images of their screwpumps, they still make pumps for submarines.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3516 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 20:51 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


Do you all have a better photo of the auxiliary water cooling pump then what I have? Perhaps a little wider?
... And it is a centrifugal type pump correct? Also, what is that drive shaft above the pump?

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 06 Mar , 2017, 20:54 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3517 on: 06 Mar , 2017, 23:51 »

Don.
The aux. coolingwater pump is, as I stated, a vertical centrifugal pump of make Odesse, Oscherleben, type G 80/180 with a capaciy of 800 l/min against a head of 3 kg/cm2.
The driveshaft  shown on the top of your image is the mechanical driveshaft for the hand operation of the aft hydroplanes.
Kindly note the original coolingwater plan 13 has a mistake omitting the suction connection to the crossover pipe both for the stb engine attached piston coolingwater pump and the suction for the aux.centrifugal pump. I have corrected the plan 13 below.
Tore
« Last Edit: 07 Mar , 2017, 00:02 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3518 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 00:09 »
OK, I will make sure it is fixed on my Plan 13...  Do you have a wider photo of the aux water cooling pump that shows some of the engine and the bulkhead?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3519 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 00:36 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I have a general question about the lube oil with sea water contamination... From what I understand the intrusion path for the sea water is through a leaking exhaust valve during a dive (lets stipulate one side). If the lube oil collection tank has sea water at the bottom, then that means the sea water passed through the piston rings, the engine crank case. and finally ended up in the lube oil collection tank.


1. After blowing out the sea water from the cylinders, do you make any other checks before starting the diesel engine?
2. I believe before starting the diesel engine you would use the aux. lube oil pump to press oil through the diesel engine.  Perhaps the pressed lube oil will force any sea water from the crank case (I don't believe there would be any oil emulsification with that procedure)?
3. So, at this point the sea water would be pumped into that diesel engine's collection tank.
4. How did you know if there was sea water in that engine's collection tank, was there a procedure to check things out once it was determined that water was in the cylinders? or even still remaining in the diesel engine's crank case?
5. Could there ever be an issue with sea water below a good set of the piston rings that passed a compression test?


What I'm attempting to understand is how the diesel engine mechanic recovers form this situation...
6. He could start up the good diesel engine, but the problem side needs his love and attention.
7. How would you resolve the problem on the contaminated side?


Kind regards,
Don
« Last Edit: 07 Mar , 2017, 00:44 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3520 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 01:51 »

Don.
Before the automation of the engineroom the engineers used hands, eyes, ears and noses to detect irregularities of the engines. Water in the lubeoil  as well as fuel might enter the system in many ways. The most common was the leaking of the main hull exhaustvalves. Leaking pipes in coolers/heaters and some times in watercooled exhaustvalves in the cylinder cover. Each leakage gave different indications. It would be impossible to list up all the different aspects, that`s why you got to have experienced engineers. F.inst. waterleakage in the exhaustvalve casing would be seen on the colour and temperature of the exhaustgas, water in the lubeoil could be detected by condensation droplets in the crankcase. When the oil settled in the systemtanks the hand pump could be used to have a visual check by looking on the discharge in the funnel.
You always would run the engines on air ( no fuel injection) prior to starting. Emulsification happens over some time, we checked the oil visually and when we saw sign of emulsification, the oil turned gray, became like mayonaise, we had to drain it from the system. This did not happen all the time, I experience this once in three years.
Piston rings can have a water leakage even if a compression test is OK. As piston rings have a split (gap) water can pass when the engine is not in operation. The main tigthening of the pistonrings do not come from the initial spring effect but from combustionpressure and compressionpressure leaking into the pistonring groves at the back side of the compressionrings, forcing the pistonring towards the cylinder wall.
Whenever the engine would be turned by air or manually you would start the  aux.lubeoilpump to protect the bearings.
The diesel engineers have many means to detect watercontamiation of the lubeoil, experience is the key and not everything can be put down on paper.
Tore
« Last Edit: 07 Mar , 2017, 02:16 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3521 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 12:28 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you for the detailed info on my questions about sea water in the lube oil...  It looks like the bottom line is when this happens and there is some emulsification, then it's time to end the war patron and head back to your home port for some needed repairs!


From what I understand, if there is a failure of the attached gear driven lube oil, or fuel oil pumps, then the aux pump may be activated if the situation requires both diesel engines running. Since these are driven by the diesel engine with metal gears pumping the oil, then what generally would be the failure mechanism? Once the diesel engine is shut down, then the mechanic may replace either pump, is that correct?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3522 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 14:45 »
Don.
Failure of attached pumps might be any thing. Normally a gearpump is very reliable, however on the direct reversible engines  the attached pumps did reverse as well and you got to have intricate valve systems to make the pumps work running astern. These complications are only related to the gearpumps like the fuel and lubeoil pumps and not the reciprocating pumps like the piston coolingwaterpumps. so you might experience trouble with the valvesystem. On the front of the engines you`ll see the pipesystems for both the fuel and luboil where you can operate the systems alternatively shortcutting filtes and pumps by shutting cocks and valves.
Usually you could repare or exchange the pump easy, the nightmare would be to have a major damage to drive from the crankshaft. However every system has many alternative operations and you would almost always find an emergency solution thanks to the flexibility of the systems.
Tore
« Last Edit: 07 Mar , 2017, 14:50 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3523 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 16:18 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


You would only change-out a failed attached gear pump when the diesel engine is shut down, is that correct?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3524 on: 07 Mar , 2017, 17:19 »


Hello again Mr. Tore,


I have come to realize that this engine lubricating system is so complex with many variables... I was studying the hand pump for manually pressing lube oil through a selected diesel engine. I don't know why they would use a hand pump when they have that huge aux. lube oil pump sitting on the port side?


1. I have colored in the pipes for when the hand pump is being used to press USED lube oil to a diesel engine (BLUE - is suction, and RED - is pressure). Valve "a" is open to allow the hand pumping to draw oil from the selected collection tank, and valve "c2" must be shut because we don't to draw CLEAN oil from the storage bunkers. Then through the hand pump, and valve "n" is shut because we don't want the oil going to the tank for filling oil cans, and finally valve "b" is open to press the lube oil to the diesel engines.


- It looks like that works OK (YES or NO)?


2. I have also colored in the pipes for when they want to pump CLEAN lube oil to the tank for filling oil cans (GREEN - is suction, and YELLOW is Pressure). In this instance I think valve "c2" must have 3 positions (left - off - Right). The left or right positions permit the selection of a CLEAN oil storage tanks, and the "off" position relates to the above procedure when pressing oil to the diesel engine. Then through the hand pump, and valve "b" must be shut to direct the CLEAN oil into the tank for the oil cans.


- It looks like that works OK (YES or NO)?


The only thing I question is Valve "c2" because it looks like an "L" type valve, but I believe it has to have an 'OFF" position. Also, it looks like there is a possibility to draw USED oil to the tank for the oil cans by having valve "c2" shut and valve "a" open?


- Did they ever want USED oil for the oil cans?


Drawing attached...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD