Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 576593 times)

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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3390 on: 13 Jan , 2017, 10:52 »
Look at the plating of the U 995 tanks. In the area of FBT you can see dented plates (because this tank is
not pressure-proof), while in the are of Q-tank (and regulating tanks) the plates are intact (because these
tanks are pressure-proof). Similarly with the wreck of U 352. I guess that we can look at the FBT interior now
because non-pressure-proof plating corroded, while the adjoining Q-tank is intact.

Maciek, do you think the plating thickness is different between the two tanks?

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3391 on: 13 Jan , 2017, 11:36 »

Hi Simon,

Look at the plating of the U 995 tanks. In the area of FBT you can see dented plates (because this tank is
not pressure-proof), while in the are of Q-tank (and regulating tanks) the plates are intact (because these
tanks are pressure-proof). Similarly with the wreck of U 352. I guess that we can look at the FBT interior now
because non-pressure-proof plating corroded, while the adjoining Q-tank is intact.

Maciek, do you think the plating thickness is different between the two tanks?


Yes, I'm sure that pressure-proof tanks plating was thicker than the non-pressure-proof tanks and outer shell plating.
Apart from the notes from the post above, I have the quotation from type IXC Design Study:
Quote
Outer shell plating is steel 42 (60000 psi tensile) specification KM 9104, except in the way of the variable tanks and negative tanks, which are specified to be of steel 52, (74000 psi tensile) specification KM 9104
The term variable tanks mean regulating tanks, and the term negative tanks mean Q-tanks.


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3392 on: 13 Jan , 2017, 19:08 »
Hello Maciek and Simon,


Maciek is 100% correct about the different thickness of sheet metal on the saddle tanks:
1. R1, R2, and Q Tank outter sheet metal is 11.5 mm thick
2. FBT 2 and FBT 4 outter sheet metal is 6 mm thick
3. The internal walls of Q Tank are 13 mm thick


However, let's examine the sunken Type VII U-Boat in question...
1. I would say the missing sheet metal cover on the port side of FBT 4 and Q Tank was the result of a depth explosion and not the effects of salt water corrosion over time. The reason for my conclusion is there are no internal support structures; they seem to be torn-off from the pressure hull and saddle tank.
2. If you look aft, the saddle tank FBT 2 port side, it looks to be intact.
3. If you look at the attached drawing, Q Tank was designed to withstand internal pressure because of the aft concave and forward convex sides.
4. When the depth charge detonated; the port FBT 4 was ripped open and the forward wall of the Q Tank was designed for the opposite stress forces.  Therefore, the port Q Tank was ripped open and exposed the mushroom valve actuating mechanism.  Q Tank has 1 internal rib type support structure mid  way in the tank, but I highly doubt that it would hold under such devastating pressure.
5. I conclude that both FBT 4 and Q-Tank on the port side were completely blown apart and the complete devastation stopped at the aft Q Tank internal wall which was designed to withstand a force in that direction.


Now as to that rectangle hole in question - I don't know? Did I go wrong on my conclusions as to what we see on this sunken U-Boat? Please advise...


Regards,
Don

PS - after looking at mt trusty steel ruler with inches on one side and mm on the other side; we're not talking about sheet metal. The 6 mm plate steel for FBT 2 and FBT 4 is a little under a 1/4 inch, and the 11.5 mm plate steel for R1, R2, and Q Tank is a little over 7/8 inch steel.  This plating would have to be rolled to fit the framing.  You are not going to bend that into place...
 
« Last Edit: 13 Jan , 2017, 22:50 by Don Prince »
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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3393 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 00:33 »
Hi,


maybe my plating consideration were going to far, however there are still issues of the flooding valves driving shafts orientation (which is horizontal for FBT 4) and their location relative to the conning tower (radar antena shaft).
In my opinion, the rectangular opening is located exactly where Q-tank is located.


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3394 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 00:44 »
After doing a map of the damage...  It looks like FBT 4 and Q Tank on the port side was completely blown apart when a depth charge detonated very close and  below the open Kingstons on the port side and through the metal grill leading to and protecting Q Tank.  The internal force blew the welded seams on FBT 4 and collapsed both the forward and aft walls of Q tank.  It looks like the destruction went in as far as one vertical frame structure into R 2.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3395 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 02:36 »
Don,


on the wreck photo (in this post) with dashed line I have marked (approximately) the frame going through the Q-tank (which also crosses the radar antena shaft).
If the Q-tank was much forward and was blown away as you said, it had to be at the height of forward periscope (and this is not possible).


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Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3396 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 02:44 »

Don,

After doing a map of the damage...  It looks like FBT 4 and Q Tank on the port side was completely blown apart when a depth charge detonated very close and  below the open Kingstons on the port side and through the metal grill leading to and protecting Q Tank.  The internal force blew the welded seams on FBT 4 and collapsed both the forward and aft walls of Q tank.  It looks like the destruction went in as far as one vertical frame structure into R 2.


On your map of the damage, the four flood valves are operated by two driving shafts (valve mechanisms), that is two flaps are operated by one shaft and the other two are operated by second shaft.
On your map you have marked one mechanism for all four flaps.


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3397 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 02:49 »
Hi Maciek,


I know that I am only guessing at this point... But since the destruction is into R 2 (I think?), then could that rectangular opening (if it is within R 2) be an inspection plate to permit servicing the Emergency Shut-Off Valve for venting MBT 3 within the air shaft? If you examine the previous image of U-995, they have a huge steel plate welded on what looks to be the outside area of this section...


I believe there would need to be a service plate to permit access for repairs to a damaged Emergency Shut-Off valve when in dry dock in a U-Boat pen...


Regards,
Don_
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3398 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 03:00 »
Hello Maciek,


Now I have a real problem...  In my Skizzernbuch page 335 I have images of the drive shafts for the Saddle tank Kingstons and there is only one drive shaft for each tank (photos) of U-995... Am I wrong?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3399 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 03:07 »

Don,


the venting shaft of the MBT 3 is located behind the attack periscope and behind the conning tower. I have marked its approximately location on attached drawing (with green color).


However, I think you have right regarding the access opening to the emergency vent valve. I have found the photo (the shot from the movie) from opposite direction, when something like rectangular cover is visible (see attachment). If this is the access opening in the regulating tank, then the next rectangular hole is the flood valve of the Q-tank.


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3400 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 03:11 »
Hi Maciek,


I only see one shaft in the control room...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3401 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 03:17 »
Now I have a real problem...  In my Skizzernbuch page 335 I have images of the drive shafts for the Saddle tank Kingstons and there is only one drive shaft for each tank (photos) of U-995... Am I wrong?


See attached photos.


In the U-boat Information for U-boat Type VIIC you can read:
Quote
For Flood valves for main ballast and reserve fuel oil tank 4 stb. and port   4

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Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3402 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 03:27 »
The second pair (first pair you have located correctly in petty officers room) of the shafts for FBT 2 flooding valves is located in galley. See attachments.
The third photo presents red linking shaft (at the right edge of photo) going through the WC cabin.


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Maciek

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3403 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 11:49 »

Maciek is 100% correct about the different thickness of sheet metal on the saddle tanks:
1. R1, R2, and Q Tank outter sheet metal is 11.5 mm thick
2. FBT 2 and FBT 4 outter sheet metal is 6 mm thick
3. The internal walls of Q Tank are 13 mm thick

PS - after looking at mt trusty steel ruler with inches on one side and mm on the other side; we're not talking about sheet metal. The 6 mm plate steel for FBT 2 and FBT 4 is a little under a 1/4 inch, and the 11.5 mm plate steel for R1, R2, and Q Tank is a little over 7/8 inch steel.  This plating would have to be rolled to fit the framing.  You are not going to bend that into place...
 

I not see this drawing before, but you know if you look at this drawing, you can see all four expansion tanks for the Fuel oil compensating system marked on it.

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3404 on: 14 Jan , 2017, 11:54 »
If you download this picture of U-352, you can coun the framing very easy.

The damage look to me to start at No. 57

http://www.olympusdiving.com/wp-content/gallery/U352-Breakout-Gallery/U352_19border_copy.JPG