Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 576714 times)

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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2625 on: 14 Apr , 2015, 10:46 »
Tore, that's a great clarification! I had always thought that there was a connection between the forward hydroplanes and their guards.
Outstanding, Tore, as usual!

PS. warm blankets and a hot cup of Joe for n.1 after his exploit in the freezing water? 
SG
When at anchor, not leaving before the next morning the Officers were allowed one Anchor dram, a whisky shot, pro man and that`s what he got ( the  night before). I am afraid we did`t have any extra blankets so he had to use his bunkblankets. ;D
Tore
« Last Edit: 14 Apr , 2015, 10:54 by tore »


Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2627 on: 14 Apr , 2015, 12:11 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I will make the changes to page 31 (already done so just waiting before redoing the complete PDF file)...


Thanks.


With regards to the model's forward hydroplane; my OTW Type VIIC U-Boat Kit (about $1,100 fiberglass and brass 1/32 scale) has a solid brass leading faring with two heavy brass studs that extend through the fiberglass hull.  I threaded the brass studs and bolted the fairings to the fiberglass hull.  The fairings don't have the incorrect end nuts.  However, there a small stud that extends into the outside of the forward hydroplane, but that is not visible.  So I guess OTW got it right...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2628 on: 15 Apr , 2015, 01:18 »
Don.
Skizzenbuch page 39-46.
I have read through these pages and can`t find anything wrong but still I am afraid that the readers might have difficulties to understand the system. On page 39 you introduce the Q system by quoting the translation of the German Divingregulation. I am afraid the document has a fraction of "google translation" as might happen when the translator do not fully understand what the text describes. Furthermore these instructions are general and concerns a number of different types of U-boats.
A simpler text for the readers could be, after giving a short description of the Q (Untertriebzelle) system:


   Crash dive procedure.
 Preparing for crashdive implies filling the Q by opening the Q- floodvalves at the bottom of the tanks and the inside Q-ventvalve venting the tank through the mufflers in the control room. The boat is now floating heavy on the ballasttanks. When crash dive orders are given the boat is heavier than normal and dive quicker through the surface. Experience shows penetrating the surface is the crucial time delaying factor. As soon as the boat is submerged the normal trim , speed and hydroplanes controls the descend effectively and the Q has a smaller effect. Thus the Q is blown immediately  after boat is submerged 8-10 meter, saving HP air. Blowing is done by shutting the inboard Q-ventvalve,  now the common Q-ventpipe can be used as Q- blowing pipe and air via the common Q- HP blowingvalve is admitted to the pipe and in to the Q-tanks forcing water out of the bottom Q-floodvalves. The Q tanks are pressureproof for external pressure by internal strengthening, but have limitation as to internal pressure not exceeding 2 kg/cm2 above the ambient external pressure hence the Q system has differential gauges which are to be monitored to keep the inside tankpressure max.2 kg/cm2 above the prevailing external seapressure.
The waterlevel inside the Q tanks are monitored by testcocks. When air is coming out of the lower testpipe the Q floodvalves are shut and blowing is stopped. When the boat ascend the pressure differential gauges are monitored and possible overpressure is released into the boat.

The essentials of the above is repeated in different wording on page 39 through 44. which might be confusing. The artificial use of "express" would be confusing as well, as in RN English we use blow Q and vent Q.
Have a look at it with the eyes of a non expert reader and see if it is worth while changing.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2629 on: 15 Apr , 2015, 03:55 »
Hi Tore,

The artificial use of "express" would be confusing as well, as in RN English we use blow Q and vent Q.

Well, I suppose, that term "express" was used to indicate that Germans used different terms related with blowing:
- anblasen - blowing tanks with compressed air
- ausblasen - blowing tanks with exhaust gases
- ausdrucken - blowing negative tanks
It can easily make confusion, as in RN English (or US Navy English) there are no equivalents of these terms.

I agree with you, that in such case, the quotation from the "Diving regulations" should be replaced with reworded description.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2630 on: 15 Apr , 2015, 22:13 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I really learned a lot form the discussion about page 39...  I updated page 31 as per Mr. Tore's previous recommendation.  I swapped page 38 and page 39 for cosmetic reasons, and updated page 38 to reflect the discussion which I found to be fascinating!  Please advise if you all approve of the new page 38.


I placed the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2631 on: 16 Apr , 2015, 08:15 »
Don.
Your update seems to be OK. A small remark. On page 42 you have a cross section drawing of the Q tank, referring to the drawing at right, the drawing is to the left.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2632 on: 16 Apr , 2015, 11:20 »
Don.
Regulating tanks.
The description used by quoting the translation of the German divingmanual resembles what we previously have discussed under Q tanks nothing particularly wrong but difficult to understand for the readers speaking English.
I have made another attempt to describe the regulating tank system as follows:
The regulating tanks are provided for compensating the submarines daily change of weight and buoyancy due to consumption, leakages, seawaterconditions (salinity and temperature) and displacement changes with regards to compression of the pressurehull during deep diving.
There are four regulating saddletanks, two ( reg. tanks 2 port and starboard) each having a capacity of 7.600 m3 and two (reg. and f.oil. tks no 1 port and stb.) each having a capacity of 4.700m3. The latter tanks can be used as reserve fueloil tanks.
All the tanks are made pressureproof having a testpressure of 14 kg/cm2. If the differential pressure between two adjacent tanks exceeds 14 kg/cm2 f. inst in the  reg. tank 2 between Q and reg./ fuel oiltank 1 the two latter tanks should be put under some pressure to avoid exceeding the max. differential pressure and rupture of the bulkhead between the tanks.
All the tanks have graded waterlevel gauges in the controlroom showing the prevailing watercontents. All tanks can be operated by the main drainage pump, aux trim and drainage pump as well as airpressure.
When diving a pair of regulatingtanks are made ready for flooding and shallow water  discharging by air. The other tanks connected to the main drainage pump in two stage configuration ready for for discharging at greater depths and the tanks are put under airpressure app. 10-12 kg/cm2.
When cruising at periscope depth a decreasing of weight is done by admitting pressure air to the tank in shallow water configuration pushing the water out of the tank thus avoiding to use the main drainage pump set to deep discharging of the deepdiving regulating tanks.
An increasing in weight is done by filling the tanks via the fine filling seavalve and flowmeter.

When going deeper the pressurehull is compressed and the displacement is becoming smaller hence the buoyancy is less. This has to be compensated by discharging water from the regulating tank in deep dive mode. The required capacity would be appr. 100l/10m, but usually more is discharged to compensate for leakages.
Plate 7 shows the regulating tank system, however the real system deviates somewhat from plate 7.
Below I have tried to sketch an image to show how I assume the system works.
The fuel/regulating tank 1 port and stb. (red) are selected as the flooding/ discharging shallow water tanks. Flooding is done via the fine flood seavalve and meter, the discharge is done by admitting air pressure to the tanks (red pipelines), forcing the water either through the normal sea valve or the seavalve to MBT 3.
The regulating tanks no 2 port and stb. (yellow) are in deep water configuration having the main drainagepump impellers in series and the tank airpressure up to 14 kg/cm2. Discharge pipe (yellow) directly via the normal overboard valve or via MBT 3.
The above suggestion is one of several possible configuration indicating the working of the system. I have left out the fuelconfiguration of the regulating/ fueloil tanks for simplification.
« Last Edit: 16 Apr , 2015, 14:16 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2633 on: 16 Apr , 2015, 17:35 »

Hello Mr. Tore,

"the discharge is done by admitting air pressure to the tanks (red pipelines), forcing the water either through the normal sea valve or the sea valve to MBT 3."

I  believe this should be the "(GREEN Piplines)" ???


I have done as you suggested and added 2 pages to Skizzenbuch to include your excellent drawing and description.  I re-indexed the book and re-numbered the 3 MS Word sections and re-compiled them into one PDF.  I have loaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2634 on: 16 Apr , 2015, 23:43 »
Don.
Somehow the word pipelines was added after the red. It was meant to be red, referring to the tank, if referring to the air/vent it should of course be green.  If you look closer to the system you`ll see it resembles the Q system, using the same pipeline for "blowing" (admitting air) and venting, may be you could add that in the text. ;)
Tore
« Last Edit: 17 Apr , 2015, 01:42 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2635 on: 17 Apr , 2015, 01:35 »
Don.
On page 38 you have a definition of the 3 different blowing orders used by the Germans. Your definition of 3. "Ausdrucken" is blowing the negative tanks. I don`t think this is quite correct as it is more general and concerns other tanks as well. If you look at plate 7 you shall see an airpipe into the common vent/blowpipe for the regulating tanks 1 and 2 marked "Ausdruck leitung". In this connection I believe it is meant an air pipe to put the tanks under pressure. This might be for transfer of water, as well a compensating for pressure differentials. An order in RN English for that would be: Pressurize tank no... to ... kg/CM2. My revised plate 7 sketch has a minor mistake as the " Ausdruck" airpipe for port regulating tanks did not have the blue colour as corrected on the revised sketch below.
Tore
« Last Edit: 17 Apr , 2015, 01:54 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2636 on: 17 Apr , 2015, 08:15 »
Don.
Minor correction page 44 left photo reliefvalve. Page 46 pressure differential manometer, gauge written gage, may be you can skip the gauge. Same thing in the last sentence down the page.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2637 on: 17 Apr , 2015, 22:34 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

Great find of the wrong spelling of "Relief."  That would have been caught with spell checker because it was embedded in a photo.  I had gauge wrong in many places and fixed it with a search and replace...

I used your latest drawing and worked on the definition issue...  a strange thing; my internet translator does the following:

ausdruck = expression
ausdrucker = print out

That certainly is confusing!

I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...

Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2638 on: 18 Apr , 2015, 01:39 »
Don.
Your latest correction seems to be OK to me as long as you take the blame for my text you are using the word I. ;D
Language can sometimes be difficult particularly when selecting words in a complicated technical description as you have to know the subject fairy well to choose the right words. The difference between submarine anblasen, ausdrucken and ausblasen is a bit complicated no wonder you are confused when you dictionary tell you ausdrucker means print out.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2639 on: 18 Apr , 2015, 15:43 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


That was a type-O it was ausdruchen (print out)... The translation site uses 4 different translators in its presentation (Microsoft, Google, Babalon, and Prompt-Online).


http://imtranslator.net/compare/german/to-english/translation/


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 18 Apr , 2015, 15:49 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD