Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 577392 times)

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Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2025 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 12:00 »
Thanks. Would you ever use the pump to fill the tanks when submerged?

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2026 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 12:08 »
Q1.  On the Skizzenbuch they list Hot Sea water --- I don't see a heating element to heat the water?


maybe this?
Quote
Sea water installation.
To provide sea water collection in the galley, there is a branch off the cooling water manifold in the diesel engine room, which leads to the valve and a tap in the wash sink.
The warm sea water installation branches off from cooling water head tank in the conning tower casing and leads to the washbasins in both W.C.s and to the wash sink in the galley.
The discharge line of the auxiliary drain and trim pump branches off to the deck wash line.  A shower head can be connected to this line, attached to the net protector, and stowed again after usage.


and maybe the distilling unit produced hot sea water?

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2027 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 12:17 »
I thought about that, but doesn't the engine cooling water contain an anti-corrosion chemical for the diesel engine?


Don_
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Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2028 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 12:24 »
No idea, but that sounds logical  :)

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2029 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 14:29 »
Don.
The hot seawater pipe is a pipe connected to the headertank for the compensating watertank up in the tower casing. The headertank is topped up by a pipe from the hot engine coolingwater at the exhaustsilencer. The engine coolingwater is not a closed circuit and has no additives. Cold seawater is just natural seawater without any cooling. The wastewater tank 1 has only two pipe connections, the drain from the galleysink and the bilgewater suctionpipe.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2030 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 14:41 »
Don.
Further to my post above, on U 995 it is a horizontal electric pump taking its suction from the coolingwater of the exhaustmanifold alongside the engine and I presume discharge warm cooling water to the galley, I cannot remember this arrangement, but you can see same on photos of the forwad port side of the engine room and described by me previously on this thread. I have not seen any sketch showing this system.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2031 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 14:46 »
Mark.
I believe you fill the regulating tanks by natural flooding while submerged.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2032 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 22:15 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you - I did find information on the hot water system and the anti-corrosion system.  Those systems are cross contaminated because the hot water passes through the same components as the anti-corrosion oil.  Not at the same time, but a residue will remain...


Questions
Q1.  Did the distilled drinking water have a smell or bad taste?
Q2.  I suppose the shower was with salt water and a special soap; did it work?
Q3.  The e-motors and bearings were cooled by sea water; did it have to be shutdown at a great depth because         of external pressure?
Q4.  How much anti-corrosion oil was brought on board for a 56 day mission?  55 Gallon drum?
Q5.  Was there a means to wash your clothes? or, just burn them after a mission?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2033 on: 16 Jul , 2014, 23:53 »
Don.
The anti corrosion oil was never used when I was on board,(almost 3 years) and I guess it was not used permanently, more like an "impregnation" of the steel/ castiron. We did not analyze the coolingwater but it it was no sign or smell of any contamination. In my part of the world direct seawatercooling was commonly used on diesels and semidiesels particularly in the  fishingvessels without any anti corrosionprotection.
I guess the distilled water was primarily used for refill of the batteries, we never used same for drinkingwater.
During the WW2 real soap was rationed and hard to get and I remember the soap was not that great even in freshwater, so I guess the Germans used the shower just to have a rinse and cooling off,  we did not used the shower, but during long missions we did most of the washing in seawater and you could have a special soap for that.
Although we had standard procedure to shut off as much as possible of the cooling watersystems going deep, I believe for the e-motors and thrustbearings the cooling circuit was open at depths down to 100 m.
We did not have any anticorrosion barrels on board.
We did not have any laundry facilities on board, however except for long missions, a submarinetender was usually in the neighbourhood which had the facilities, otherwise some of the worst clothings had to be dumped as you say.
« Last Edit: 17 Jul , 2014, 05:10 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2034 on: 18 Jul , 2014, 18:46 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


One of the British reports states there is a master blowing valve in the engine room for blowing the ballast tanks with diesel exhaust one at a time.  They state that the two muffler valves are shut to blow the ballast...


I see it this way...


The blowing is carried out by opening at least one of the Muffler Valves (f) in the engine room and closing its accompanying Exhaust Gas Outboard Flap Valve (e) to re-direct gases to the blowing manifold.  One ballast tank is blown at a time.  The engine in use for blowing may be running light or propelling and is run at a speed of no less than 300 RPM.  It is important that the Exhaust Gas Outboard Flap valve should not be open at this time.  If it is, the tanks will vent at a slower rate because you will loose substantial exhaust gas pressure through the muffler.  The second diesel would be re-charging the batteries after a dive...


Would you ever blow the ballast tanks with both diesel engines?  It looks like you could according to the drawing...


I do not see a master valve between the blowing manifold and the muffler valves...  Am I missing something?  What would be the proper blowing tank sequence?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 18 Jul , 2014, 20:16 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2035 on: 19 Jul , 2014, 01:02 »
Don.
When you start exhaustgas blowing, one of the diesel is started the normal way having the inner and outer (muffler) main exhaustgas valves open, when the engine is running smoothly you adjust the exhaust pressure by throttling the main exhaust mufflervalve, the inner main exhaustvalve is fully open, as you open the mainblowing valve admitting the exhaustgases to the distribution panel in the controlroom. I don`t think as a rule one  MBT is blown at the time. The ruling factor is the trim of the submarine as an excessive faulty trim would lead the exhaustgases to the MBT having the lowest resistance and upset the the trim even more, hence you adjust the distribution of the blowing in the controlroom. We used only one diesel for blowing, remember, this was usually a fairly slow process (10- 15 min) at a semisurfaced position using only 5 m WC pressure and one diesel emitted ample exhaustvolume for blowing the tanks. The US and RN submarines used electric blowers for this last stage blowing, which primarily is used for saving HP air.
Tore
« Last Edit: 19 Jul , 2014, 01:58 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2036 on: 20 Jul , 2014, 00:34 »
Don
Reading my yesterdays post I realize you might get the impression that the diesel exhaust blowing pipes enters the controlroom, for the sake of order it is only the distributionvalve spindles and handwheels which are in the controlroom the distribution valvechest and pipes are outside the pressurehull.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2037 on: 20 Jul , 2014, 14:56 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you for the update...  The only thing that surprised me was the Outboard Exhaust Valve was not fully closed when blowing the ballast.  I guess once you establish the correct exhaust pressure by adjusting the valve, then excessive back pressure would affect the engine performance...


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2038 on: 21 Jul , 2014, 00:17 »
Don.
Shutting the exhaustsilencer flapvalve would have led to excessive exhaustpressure almost immediately. The dieselengine acts like a piston pump having a piston displacement of 0,057 m3 for every 2.nd revs ( 4 stroke). With 6 pistons and say 300 revs/min this would be about 50 m3/min exhaust. Compressing this to 1,5 ata (max allowable blowingpressure) would give appr. 34 m3/min exhaustgas at 1,5 ata, which is far to much for blowing the MBTs. Thus the silencer flapvalve had to be partly open and as the pressure varied was constantly adjusted by the engineer maintaining the correct pressure. The exhaustblowing of MBTs required ( in the controlroom) a constant monitoring of the pressure to each tank as the resistance of the tanks varied according to the depth of the Kingstons and floodgates ( 1 and 5). I have tried to put up a sketch showing the variation at 2 degrees bow up surfacing. For the saddletanks in ballast configuration, the saddletanks Kingstons are substantially higher up than MBT 3 and having the least exhaust blowing resistance of all MBTs.
Tore
« Last Edit: 21 Jul , 2014, 00:22 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2039 on: 21 Jul , 2014, 04:39 »
Hi Tore,

The dieselengine acts like a piston pump having a piston displacement of 0,057 m3 for every 2.nd revs ( 4 stroke). With 6 pistons and say 300 revs/min this would be about 50 m3/min exhaust. Compressing this to 1,5 ata (max allowable blowingpressure) would give appr. 34 m3/min exhaustgas at 1,5 ata, which is far to much for blowing the MBTs.

Do you think, is it doable, to blow ballast tanks using diesel engine as compressor, which is driven by electric motors?
I mean the situation, when there no compressed air left in the air flasks to blow or start diesel (other option - to start diesel engines by electric motors).

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek