Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 592662 times)

0 Members and 32 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Don Prince

  • Admiral3
  • *
  • Posts: 1,039
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2670 on: 07 May , 2015, 20:12 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I believe I have everything up to date...  I re-wrote 3 paragraphs  - pages 78, 116, and 199.  I believe they reflect your suggestions.  Please let me know if they are OK.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2671 on: 08 May , 2015, 00:37 »
Don.
Page 78. Normally when you use the compensating water you only pressurize the fuel tanks and do not have a water consumption. Only the bunker fueltanks selected to supply fuel to the diesel engine daytanks would require compensating water equal to that of one of the daytanks, a total capacity 730 litres. The engines have at normal cruising speed an average total consumption of say 420 litres/hour, so lets assume you top up the tank once pr. hour by 420 litres you have the average compensatingwater consumption. Compared to the total cooling water supply from the diesels say 40.000 litres/hour only 10% of the cooling water is used for watercompensating while cruising by diesels. So you statement..... most of the water is channeled to the fueltanks....should be corrected.
Page 199.   ... the engine room dieselengineer or the E-room electrician will respond with his telegraph unit after the command has been completed and then the.......
The engineer or the electrician acknowledge the order prior to the execution of the telegraph order.
Tore
« Last Edit: 08 May , 2015, 00:41 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

  • Admiral3
  • *
  • Posts: 1,039
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2672 on: 08 May , 2015, 11:31 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I have a question about the muffler spark suppressor... Does it spray water onto the exhaust to extinguish the sparks?  I thought I read something about white smoke coming from the U-Boat exhaust (possibly steam)?  If that were the case, then they would only want to use the spark suppressor at night to eliminate that tell-tale glow of the U-Boat's exhaust so not to give away its location...


Regards,
Don_

A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

  • Admiral3
  • *
  • Posts: 1,039
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2673 on: 08 May , 2015, 12:45 »
Hello Mr. Tore.

Are these statements correct?

"The day tank has two sides and each has a capacity of 720 Liters"

"Compared to the cooling water supplied from the diesels approximately 4,000 liters/hour, only about 10% of the cooling water is used for water compensating while cruising by diesel."


If we top up the tank once an hour...  Then that means we switch tanks and top up the tank that was being used and we have an hour for the fuel to settle before switching again.  These sound more like hour tanks rather than day tanks...

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 08 May , 2015, 12:58 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2674 on: 08 May , 2015, 13:26 »
Don.
 I don`t think you should take the daytank on a submarine literally. The expression is used by the enginecrew and comes from the merchant marine where they have the space for a 24 hours tank. You may use the expression setling tank or even headertank. I guess the total capacity for both tanks together is 720 liters in excess of 6 US barrels. If you look at the both tanks together I don`t think they have the capacity of a total of 12-13 barrels.  The tankcontent is not very much and indeed it is a short setling time, but it is better that taking the fuel directly from the bunkertanks. All these figures are only approximate figures roughly calculated by me to illustrate the working of the system.
Tore
« Last Edit: 08 May , 2015, 13:32 by tore »

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2675 on: 08 May , 2015, 13:59 »
Don.
Spark arrestor. I think the VIICs have a number of different exhaust outlets and possibly spark arrestors. I have put up some 5-6 versions on the images below. So I have to answer you questions more generally. The sparkarrestors for submarines may be of two executions wet or dry. In the wet execution the engine coolingwater is sprayed into the arrestor or the gases are emitted into a coolingwater well  in case same is placed above the watersurface (sea) or the exhaust is emitted below the watersurface (sea) without a special casing for a spark arrestor. The latter execution was the original U-995 design, this has been changed on today museum U-995 as shown on the image. The dry sparkarrestor has an intricate system of baffel plates to arrest the sparks inside a casing.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

  • Admiral3
  • *
  • Posts: 1,039
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2676 on: 09 May , 2015, 00:35 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I added the info you provided on the exhaust location and the spark suppressor on page 117.  I also added your info to page 78 and I did a lot of research and add some additional info as well.  However, as always -  if I got it wrong, then please tell me so and I will correct it.

I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...

Regards,
Don_ 
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2677 on: 09 May , 2015, 07:57 »
Don.
Page 78. Running one diesel at full ahead on one shaft using the generator to power the other shaft by E motor at half the propeller rpm as of the "diesel shaft" was a very seldom configuration. You would get an unequal load on the propellers requiring a constant  correction by the rudders, resulting in a increased hull resistance. Depending on circumstances as when you had to be at your destination and your battery charge, you choose the configuration. I guess normally I would have run both diesels at 3/4 load if no charging was required. If charging was required, as was very often the case, I would put on the battery charging on both diesels, and adjusting the load and rpm at the lowest specific fuelconsumption of the diesels. But we did not often made to much theoretical speculation around the matter, it is so many variables like hullresistance which varies with the  maintenance, optimal variable specific fuelconsumption of the diesels, weather, sea etc. A long story on these matters in an explanation of the daytank would possibly be confusing for the reader and take the focus from the daytank.

There is one fringe benefit with the water compensating system which we have not touched upon, the hot water sanitary system. From the headertank you have a fourth connection (drain)supplying warm seawater to the galley and the lavatories, see the image below, which I guess is self explanatory. Although the water consumption is fractional it is nevertheless worth while to mention.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 May , 2015, 08:02 by tore »

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2678 on: 09 May , 2015, 08:10 »
Don.
Your page 117 seems to be OK.
Tore

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2679 on: 09 May , 2015, 08:32 »
Don.
Page 199 misprint..... attach periscope....
Checked up to page 237, more than half the Skizzen Buch OK :) 
Tore.

Offline Don Prince

  • Admiral3
  • *
  • Posts: 1,039
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2680 on: 09 May , 2015, 12:31 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

I read that they used the economy method for two reasons... 
1.  One diesel was down for repairs so it could not be online
2.  They were on a search grid and fuel was a concern because of a long patrol

I found another instance....
By May 1943 surfacing was fraught with danger, and standing orders from Admiral Godt (who took command of the U-Boat Arm when Donitz became C-in-C of the Navy) instructed captains to run on the surface with the U-Boats in neutral buoyancy, with one diesel and one electric motor running, and to be ready to dive at all times.

It looks like times were getting pretty desperate...

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 09 May , 2015, 13:11 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2681 on: 10 May , 2015, 01:11 »
Don.
As mentioned many times before, operation of a submarine have many options both with regards to using the flexibility of the systems as well as sailing the boat in the best possible way under different circumstances. That takes skill and experience. However when you shall explain systems related to fuel consumptions I guess normal circumstances should be the reference. An easy way of doing that is by using the engine specific fuelconsumption. Down below I have put up a graph showing the specific fuelconsumption measured on the test bed for a VIIC GW engine. The waterbrake follows the propeller law. The red graph is the non supercharged range of the engine and as you see the lowest possible specific fuelconsumption is 180/g bhp hour achieved at app. 380 rpm and slightly in excess of 800 HP. The specific consumption is then about the same until you increase the rpm to app. 425. and 1000 bhp, then you got to switch in the supercharger and the efficiency of the engine drops (the Roots blower take a lot of energy) the specific fuelconsumption, yellow graph, is then increased to 188 g/bhp starting to raise further from 470 rpm. This graph can be used when you want to run the boat in a best possible fuelsaving way, however as I said before, there are many aspects in the operation of a submarine, fuelconsumption is only one of them..
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 May , 2015, 13:51 by tore »

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2682 on: 10 May , 2015, 02:44 »
Don.
Skizzenbuch page 261 misprint ....attachperiscope.... page 262 misprint .... from the sten... . In your description of the periscopes- hydraulic may be it is worth while to mention the importance of having the periscope resting on the bottom stoppers while going deep. The reason for that is to releave the stresses on the wires. In the unlikely event of a cable snapping while the periscope is up, you`ll have an unarmed "torpedo" ramming the pressurehull bottom. Otherwise at f.i. 25 meter, the raising and lowering of the scope was an elegant way of adjusting the trim, when you only needed minor adjustment, by using the displacement of the periscopes as an adjustment tool.
Your skizzenbuch is checked OK up to page 274.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 May , 2015, 01:40 by tore »

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2683 on: 11 May , 2015, 00:55 »
Don.
Skizzenbuch. Page 247 2nd. lowest line misprint ..... toiled......
I have not checked the pages 277 up to 321 on the torpedoequipment.
On the ballast tanks and venting you are using a lot of drawings from U-historia, nominating the various items. I guess when you translate German into Spanish and then to English you might get some strange nominations, which deviates quite a bit from expressions and nominations previously used in your book. This can be confusing to your readers, moreover in the submarine language it is vital not to use different names for the same item. Examples are Divetanks / Ballasttanks, Hydroplanes/Diveplanes,Shut/Closed, Ventilationvalve/Ventvalve, Floodvalves/Kingstons etc. As the naval expressions deviates even between the English speaking countries it become difficult. I guess you have to chose US Navy or RN English.  I fully realize this is not easy when you quote different sources, although the different words might be correct, I guess it is a bit confusing for a reader but definitely cumbersome for the editor to correct. :'(
The venting of the ballasttanks is an important part of a submarine, and you have some excellent images from U-historia, one thing is missing though. On the large handles for the vents of port and starboard MBT 3, MBT 2 and 4 the lockingpins are left out. Just imagine if the Kingstons were open and somebody accidentally grasped the handle. :o  Below is an image of the lockingpins in place.
You Skizzenbuch is checked up to page 340 except the pages mention above.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 May , 2015, 01:41 by tore »

Offline tore

  • Tore
  • *
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2684 on: 11 May , 2015, 23:40 »
Don.
If the MBT 2 and 4 were in RFO configuration both the gatevalves and the Kingstons would be shut and main ventvalve would`t work, the same goes for the emergency shut of the ventducts. MBT3 venting would`t work if kingstons were shut. Generally in harbour for a longer period, I guess normally all the kingstons were shut. I don`t think the greatest risk would be in harbour.
When at sea the order: "make ready for diving" is given and a number of actions take place to make the boat ready and after that is done an accidental pulling of the vent valvelever could be fatal. The locking pins are simple and quick to remove and is done as a part of the diving procedure. In wartime and surfaced in hostile waters I guess they would be left out all the time.
Tore