VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing

[NZSnowman]

Dougie,

I was wondering about your thoughts on the lower wintergaten railing.

I have noted that most of the late war Type VIIC & VIIC/41 have a ring a netting around the lower part of the lower wintergaten. What the purpose of this netting is it to stop the empty cartridges of the 3.7 cm Flak going overboard?

I have also noted that on the very late war Type VIIC/41 this netting is a completely missing. To me it seems like the Germans just didn’t bother anymore about the netting this late in the war, perhaps for the reason they were using the Flak guns so little.

Any thoughts about this netting on the lower wintergaten?

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,
 
I have had no success researching this subject. Partly this is because the netting is difficult to observe from a distance. From a certain distance it is difficult to establish for certainty whether it was there or not.
 
Unfortunately I have yet to establish any sort of pattern. I've not seen it on many VIICs/VIIC/41s at all. I suspect many VIICs did not get this at all. It is there on a few boats in spring 1944 (but not on others). Whether a boat would retain the feature until the end of the war I don't know. The other difficulty is that the netting wasn't always in the same place. On either U 953 or U 275 it was to half height on the upper platform but I don't know if it was on the lower platform.
 
It seems to me to be more common on IXs but there were plenty of IXs without the netting at all. Again the style differed. U 805 and U 516 at the end of the war both had the netting to quarter height (a quarter of the way up to the top railing bar) but only on the lower platform - not the upper platform.  U 190 at the war's end also had it on the lower platform only but on this boat it was to half height.
 
So I can't give you anything like a definitive answer. But we might venture to say that there does not appear to be one specific style of netting applied universally to all boats within a certain time frame.
 
As for the purpose, stopping empty cartridges going overboard, or even dropped full ones, seems quite a sensible guess.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie
 

[NZSnowman]

Partly this is because the netting is difficult to observe from a distance. From a certain distance it is difficult to establish for certainty whether it was there or not.

Hi Dougie

Thanks for taking your time to answer.

You are totally correct about trying to pick out the netting in war time photo, it nearly impossible. It is critical to get just the right lighting so you can see the netting in the photographs.
 
Another thing I just been looking into recently is the late war UZO, there seen to be two sub-styles. The handle and basic layout are the same but the top and base of the late war UZO are different. One of the sub-style seems more common than the other. I will post some pictures in a few days after I finish drawing them. Have you noted this differences in late war UZO?

[falo]

Hi Snowman, hi Dougie,

just checked my pictures from U 995 last night. Please look at the attached photo.

If the netting (upper and lower platform) on U 995 is accurate we can see a small space between the lower edge of the netting and the floor. IMO this space is small enough to stop cartridge magazines from going overboard during operating the AA-guns, but wide enough to let the empty shells drop into the water. Because empty shells would have been a triping hazard for the AA-gun crew.

Regards
falo

[SG]

 
 

But we might venture to say that there does not appear to be one specific style of netting applied universally to all boats within a certain time frame.
 

I agree, I've been checking quite a number of pictures on U-Boot im focus and the styles of netting vary from boat to boat in terms of location (upper/lower wintergarten/both) and presence/absence of spacing  from lower edge of netting and floor.
A few examples:

- U 953 and U 415, April 1944; U 260 Oct 1943: netting on upper and lower wintergarten, no spacing. (U-boot im focus n.7 pages 51-52; UiF n.11 page 7, picture5; UiF n.5 page 8 Photo 7, respectively)
- U 249, U 1023, May 1945 (after ceasefire): netting on lower wintergarten on both boats, no spacing for U 1023, netting mounted on frame spaced from the edge of lower wintergarten on U 249. (U-boot im focus n.12 page 27, photo 21)
- Unknown boat, turm IV w Flak Vierling: net on upper and lower wintergarten reinforced at the base of netting with perforated metal sheet, no spacing at all (U-boot im focus n.2 page 6, photo 7)
- U 264, October 1943: perforated metal sheet instead of netting on upper and lower wintergarten (U-boot im focus n.11 page 11, photo 10)
Cheers,
SG   

[NZSnowman]

SG,

I noted on a few boat there a very smal tab (about 30 mm wide) between the lowest rail and rim of the floor and 1/2 between the rail posts.

Do you have any better photo's of them? Are they just supporting the lower rail? Are they just welded onto the rim of deck?

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Simon,


Sorry I have no measurement written down, only a couple of drawings. However all is not lost, which given measurements I have already taken of the U 534 I am less inclined to trust, I feel the need to make one more visit to the U 534, given her state of disrepair on my last visit it will not be a happy trip but I need to take a few more measurements and I have a better way of photographing the 3.7cm than previous.
They is a C38 in the indoor museum area which I can measure the base, it is a single mount but I am pretty sure that the bases were the same dimensions. Not sure when that will be, maybe Easter. If there is anything else that I maybe able to measure/photograph feel free to ask.


Regards
Jon

[NZSnowman]

Thanks, Jon.
 
Have you done any research into the 2cm Flak gun stand? It very hard to pick up in war time photos especially when its reset into the wooden deck. I cannot tell if it’s on all boats but it seems to be on good number of boats.

In the photo below you can see the starboard stand.


http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/electronica/antiradar/antiradar.htm

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Simon,


That is one of the things I want to have a good look at on my next trip to Birkenhead. All I can tell you at the moment is that they were mounted on a common metal mount on the upper platform of the VIIs and IXs and the deck on the later IIs, by common I mean that the mount base would fit either single of twin gun mount, but not the early 2cm on the type IIs that retracted into its own container.


Regards
Jon

[NZSnowman]

Dougie, below is one of the two sub style of the late war UZO.





Sub-style 1

 
Sub-style 2

[SG]

I noted on a few boat there a very smal tab (about 30 mm wide) between the lowest rail and rim of the floor and 1/2 between the rail posts.

Simon can you post a picture of the tab so that I can start hunting for pictures?

PS Excellent work with that UZO

[NZSnowman]

I noted on a few boat there a very smal tab (about 30 mm wide) between the lowest rail and rim of the floor and 1/2 between the rail posts.

Simon can you post a picture of the tab so that I can start hunting for pictures?

PS Excellent work with that UZO

[dougie47]

Hi Simon,
 
Yes, you are correct about the two different styles of UZO head on VIICs, just like your excellent drawings. There was also another type on IXs.
 
The only thing I can help with are a few features on the UZO head. Firstly, there appears to be two plates on the head (see the two red boxes below).
 
Secondly, just underneath where the binoculars sit there is an opening on one side and another opening on the other side. Perhaps something fitted into those openings? If you look at the blue area below and then look at your image, there appears to be something there. Could this be a part of the UZO and if so does it fit into one of the openings? Perhaps this allowed the binocular height to be adjusted?
 

Cheers,
 
Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Dougie,

Not sure if you see these pages, they have so great pictures of the UZO's.

I also noted the two plates on the head (there are 4 plates) I choose not to add them to my model as I have no detail pictures of them and I could not work out that they were for. Do you have any ideas about the plates?

http://www.historicacollectibles.com/it/ottiche/binocolo-7x50-blc-carl-zeiss-udf-uzo-con-rarissimi-tubi-parapioggia-u-boot-kriegsmarine-circa-1943
http://www.historicacollectibles.com/it/ottiche/binocolo-7x50-blc-carl-zeiss-udf-uzo-reichsadler-u-boot-kriegsmarine-circa-1943
http://www.historicacollectibles.com/it/ottiche/binocolo-7x50-blc-zeiss-udf-uzo-u-boot-kriegsmarine-con-mirino
http://www.historicacollectibles.com/it/ottiche/binocolo-7x50-blc-zeiss-udf-uzo-u-boot-kriegsmarine

[SG]

Simon, i was only able to spot the tabs on U 1306 (pic you posted), U 1304 (commissioning ceremony) and U 977 but they werent photographed from a close distance and am not able to make out the details. Other boats that could possibly sport them could well be U 907 and U 1165, in both cases they're either too distant or too blurred to be seen clearly.