AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE IX => Topic started by: Bob Tomlin on 01 Mar , 2016, 06:57
-
Hi Gents,
I'd like to hopefully build the U534 using the Revell 'U-505' kit with the forthcoming rcsubs conversion seen here:-
http://www.rcsubs.cz/index.php/80-uvod/132-ixc40-534-172 (http://www.rcsubs.cz/index.php/80-uvod/132-ixc40-534-172)
I wondered if anyone on here might know of the existence or not of any wartime shots of this particular boat and if so which publications they're in, or if there are any other good references?
The only shots I've seen so far are one taken from the attacking Liberator and another one which might be of her in a much earlier fit in harbour.
My intention was to put her in a 'seascape' which will involve cutting her down a little, but will let me concentrate on the 'normally visible above the waterline' bits.
Any pointers to references or potential pitfalls with this would be very appreciated, thanks.
Bob.
-
Thanks very much for the offline help so far, much appreciated.
I'd been wondering about what the best way for me to have a go at this model might be.
Like I said before, I thought it'd be a nice idea to have her running on the surface and I've been very inspired by Chris Flodbergs tutorials on seascapes, (which I came across) so I'm going to have a go at that.
I've got the materials in and am first going to have a practice run on a surface minus the sub to see if it works for me.
I also thought it might be a good idea to have a sort of plan in place as to what I'm aiming for, so I did a quick sketch where I think I'd like her running on fairly smooth sea, cutting some waves.
Looking at photos of this, a fair number of drainage slots will be covered by water, so that could save some internal work?
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/5391/wgWow1.jpg)
I thought I'd also try modifying the areas behind the drainage slots that are visible, adding some card to give a bit of depth hopefully like this (but I'd be happy to hear of any better way of doing it).
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6896/vIgIM4.jpg)
Cheers Bob.
-
I like your idea. I'm certain it will greatly improve the look of kit's vents. 8)
-
Yup, you got the right idea! That's essentially what many of us do.
Don't kill yourself to make the pillars triangular, they can be square (since those baffle plates extended upwards).
Thankfully the plates are easy to place, as they are in line with the vertical rows of rivets.
Keep us apprised of your build. :)
-
A most clever idea and marvellous sketches! Am really looking forward to see the WIP shots of your project!
-
Hi again.
Thanks very much for the inputs about the vents.
I've been trying to pin down as much information as possible on areas I'm not certain about, in order to try and plan ahead to avoid pitfalls.
One grey area for me on the U534 is the Schnorkel mast restraining bracket. Like in this sketch of the front part of it.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/5830/ojSEao.jpg)
I realise looking at this that I've left the outer bolts off where the 'rubber?' lining is bolted onto the curved recess.
This is only the front element of the bracket which bolts onto the part that fixes it to the tower.
In the the absence of any shots of this on U534 itself, I was trying to find photos of mounts on other boats to best work out how it would've fixed to the 534.
Other Type IX boats seem to have their masts further forward and the restraining bracket near the front of the tower on the right side.
However, from what I can see in a photo, the position would be more or less where the bottom of the railings of the top 'wintergarden?' meet the tower plating on the U534.
There looks also to be a fairing which goes along the side of the tower below the spray deflector which may house the control rod for the locking mechanism on the restraining bracket too.
The rest of the bracket mount looks like it's been 'streamlined' for 'hydrodynamics?' on the U190, with fairings blending it into the spray deflector, but other boats may not be like this?
The only boat I've seen a shot of with the bracket in a similar spot to where it was on the U534 looks to be the U234 (which I realise was quite a different sort of boat).
Any help to pointers of where I can find more shots of these brackets and the way they attach would be very appreciated (if it's in a book, I'd happily look to get it).
Thanks, Bob.
-
Here's what I think the rest of the mounting bracket looks like from photos (but please feel free to point out where it's wrong as that's why I'm doing this).
The part I drew in the first sketch, mounts onto the plate with the six bolt holes in, in this sketch.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/3163/tRlKiw.jpg)
The revell IXC/40 boat parts seem to be fairly close to this (I've left the large pipe bits off as the U534 didn't have them).
What I next have to do is figure out if the mounting was similar to this on the U534 or not (with it being positioned further back as on the U234 and U516).
Not having done any seascapes before, I thought I'd have a trial run based on Chris Flodbergs tutorials, so have been messing around with Styrofoam, bits of torn up paper and liquitex acrylic medium and varnish. I've not managed to get the 'high gloss' varnish yet and haven't got any blue paint, but am so far encouraged with first impressions.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/8767/5NRkYu.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/2388/SVlubM.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/306/AbFee1.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/772/D9BZlV.jpg)
Hopefully going to get some close-up shots of 534 next weekend.
I did wonder if anyone's tried removing the dividers between the drainage vents completely and replacing them with thin card or not (as an alternative to filing behind them)?
Cheers Bob.
-
Looking good ;) . Have you thought of using oats to reproduce the waves texture, like Chris Floodberg usually does?
-
Have you thought of using oats to reproduce the waves texture, like Chris Floodberg usually does?
Yes I did wonder about that, I like the appeal of being able to make waves so simply by just making impressions in the oats with fingers.
What put me off that one was where he mentioned the fumes and vapours from soaking the oats with CA glue.
I might have misunderstood it, but the way I read it, he wrote he usually uses the Styrofoam method now instead of oats (of course he might have changed his mind again since I read that bit).
He wrote that can be messy too though, with the carving and sanding and all, which was why I went for the other way he mentioned which is to make the initial wave indentations by holding a lighter flame about 8 inches below the foam. This allows the foam to indent in a 'controlled' way and gives a nice random effect. It doesn't leave all the mess over the floor that way either.
Just spent a morning filing out all the ventilation holes in the port side of the sub, so at least I'm doing something with the actual kit plastic now.
Cheers Bob.
-
Wow, great sketches, ideas, and test water is excellent! first rate.
-
Hi all,
Getting stuck into the hull internals at the moment. Just modified my post here having seen something in a plan.
Can I please ask if anyone knows what lies internally behind the rectangular outlet/hole towards the aft end on the side of the hull?
It's been pointed out that 'steam' appeared to be coming out of that location in one post looking at a photo.
This 'hole' is rectangular on this IXC/40 in photos but there's a semi-circular 'hole' in the same location on the revell U-505 kit.
Just trying to find out what to put behind it (e.g. rectangular trunking, or whatever).
I've got the Vom original sum Modell book and on page 60 at the top, it looks like pipes climb up and then aft from the diesels, travelling aft below the outer deck to exit at the spot I'm asking about, so
I'm thinking this is either the outlet/inlet for the diesels?
Is that's the case, would this have a baffle/door/valve to stop seawater pouring in?
Thanks for any help/pointers.
Amendment to this:- Just seen that the ducts bend forwards towards compressed air tanks.
Still don't know if they'd just be 'open' to gape into or have a sort of baffle in there though.
...and further amendment:- Just read the post ref exhaust outlets and see this is what Dougie calls a type 2 outlet so that's what it is. Would still like to know if you'd see anything looking into the hole from the outside (e.g. Mesh or similar, or just the duct itself).
Cheers Bob.
-
Hi again,
Managed to finally start some work on the sub itself after delving into the research.
First off, I decided I wasn't going to go in for a great deal of internal detail for the hull (except in the schnorkel bay areas).
With that in mind, I opted for a basic internal structure that you won't really see through the slots.
I used B&Q smooth surface pipe insulation for a 'sort of pressure hull' (I really just wanted something with a smooth top rounded surface in the interior of the boat). This stuff was great for my purposes as it is very light, adheres with polystyrene glue, is very easy to carve to shape
and will bend and contract to fit into spaces.
So this was where it begins (and it's a small beginning but who knows where it will end).
I kept the kit internal frames for hull support after modifying them to not show up through the hull vents (I've kept top sections to strengthen the upper hull when I chop the lower hull off (gulp!).
Onto this I've attached the 'shelves' which form the tops of the drainage vents (sort of similar to real thing cross sections)-see rough shot.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4104/PMF55T.jpg)
With the 'shelves' in place, you can't see through the sub from one side to the other.
There's been a lot of filing, thinning out the pillars in between the drainage vents, so this afternoon, I couldn't resist doing a small bit of
actual constructive work, by seeing how the 'baffles' might look in the vent holes. I don't think they look too bad myself, but just in case,
I can always adjust the swell if it doesn't look right.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/775/jYINlD.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/139/iFBYBx.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/9179/cvps6K.jpg)
I'd like to add a thin strip to replicate what I've seen on the originals in photos that runs along the top of the vents but I'm not sure what to use for that yet.
It's on the U-534 and U-889 but not on the U-505 from what I can see in photos. Anyone replicated this in the past and have any tips?
The plastic deck's just in place in the photos to make sure nothings's altered width-wise at the top and to keep shape.
Cheers Bob.
-
Looking Great, Bob! keep up the v good work!
-
Hi again,
As you may have noticed with the title, I made a slightly radical decision to change the subject boat to the U-889 from the U-534.
This was mainly because of a need to find out about a couple of small details on the 534 that I was unsure of and secondly to give me a bit of a practice before tackling the 534 (with this being my first ship/sub).
The U-889 has very good period photo reference shots and is another IXC/40 with very similar (but slightly different layout).
One obvious thing that marks it from the rest is the 'Zwiebel' on the bow, so this was added using miliput (shape will be refined later).
At some stage I was going to have to face cutting this model down for the waterline scenario (gulp!).
Here she is prior to any cutting sat on the foam sea base.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/232/rXF4ZM.jpg)
Here she is again after the dreaded cut with the tool of choice (hated taking this to the model).
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/968/4CSeIh.jpg)
Next stage was to cut out the boat shape in the foam for it to sit in. The boat was drawn around before making the cut at an angle.
Test fits in the foam base.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/6039/rWUbh8.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/357/v6sPeW.jpg)
The next phase was to make some basic wave indentations
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/5841/4M7zR3.jpg)
Next thing was to add an acrylic gel bow wave and the first layer of tissue surface to the sea.
After the test fits, the hull and sea won't be together again until both are very nearly finished.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/6396/uxphKn.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/802/8ya5Fr.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/6936/fgFTmF.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/5513/nScp4c.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3816/whJlKR.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/3739/OB0qiL.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/599/LDsihO.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3980/Dew0Nb.jpg)
This is the very basic first part of the sea modelling and will need lots of layers, acrylic varnish and then foam and wake adding, but it gives an idea of where we're heading I hope.
Cheers Bob.
-
really nice ocean, especially for a first time!
-
Thanks Rokket. A lot more work to do yet on both sea and sub but separately for a while.
The sub's having a new deck and hull mods.
Been conversing online with Chris Flodberg and am now sourcing some Rayon balls for the wake from the sub.
been looking at lots of photos of wake and thinking about water effects.
I'm going to use some parts from the Revell U190 kit and will be utilising the U534 deck with mods to 'move' the schnorkel bay.
That deck in the photos is just sat loosely in position to give a feel for the end result.
While waiting on the Rayon balls I did manage to finish a Spitfire Oil sketch (off topic so feel free to delete as appropriate), but just showing it's not all been wasted time. Got some time off next week so hoping to get stuck into both sea and sub.
Here's the (off topic) Spit.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/9213/FQdFP6.jpg)
-
On standby for further in-progress shots. Eager to see the effect given by the rayon balls. Also, the spitfire painting really rocks. Congrats for the masterful use of oils and top notch drawing skills. Am speechless.
-
Thanks for the kind words SG.
Still waiting for the Rayon to arrive. I found this harder to find than I thought it might be, in the UK (I suspect that in the EU, if something's called 'Cotton' Wool then it has to be cotton, but I'm
just guessing).
I've ordered some in from the States and it says it's been despatched, so fingers crossed.
In the mean time I've started on 'underpainting' the sea a bit.
By this I mean that I've put down a uniform sea colour and am now starting to add some 'sub surface'-type churn colours.
There's quite a bit of this to do so i'll chip away at it in between work shifts.
On top of this, there'll then be several layers of liquitex high gloss varnish added to give it that watery reflective look and of course then the rayon (which will form the surface churn and wake
effects proper and add some more 3D to the whole thing).
Couple of quick shots to show the start of things:-
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/4373/BwDIXe.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/7031/w5HuQh.jpg)
Of course there's the sub to be getting on with too (!) ;)
Cheers Bob.
-
Very Minor update (just to show I am making slow progress in between work shifts):-
The Rayon arrived yesterday so am now having a go at starting to add some white water and wake.
Before
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/2254/mxTFig.jpg)
...and this afternoons efforts so far
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/8544/pz3v2Y.jpg)
looking forward to getting back onto the sub when the sea's done.
Cheers Bob.
-
Hi Gents,
I've been getting on with the sea (wake mainly) for a while but also fancied doing some work on the actual sub in between so here's a very small update.
Some of you will know that I've been looking at the forward hull vents for the type IXC/40 and the fairing shapes for a little while.
After looking at a video of the U-889 for a while, a lot of freeze framing around 2.16min into it has made me decide that these are both what I'd call the 'B2' type of fairing so I'm putting my money on that, so to speak.
Video link:-
http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/678512935-corvette-ship-royal-canadian-navy-surrendering-naval-warfare (http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/678512935-corvette-ship-royal-canadian-navy-surrendering-naval-warfare)
With that in mind I started on putting something similar onto my model.
I'm getting some small needle sanding sticks to clean these up a bit, but figured this would be easier to do once they were on the boat.
I used the parts from the rear vents on the Revell U-190 kit and have cut them into individual sections before filing them a little and reassembling them.
Also, I may be 'going against the grain of popular opinion or something similar here, but looking at photos, I couldn't see those rivets all over the top part of the hull so I toned them down a lot with some sanding.
I also couldn't see the 'strip' that Revell have on their boat that runs just beneath the vents on shots of the real thing so I filed that off.
It's not all destructive though, as I did add a strip (which will need sanding a little) above the vents (which does appear in the photos I'm looking at).
Two quick progress shots with wrong deck sat in place just to add shadows to vents:-
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/8229/GSPqsc.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1775/V52xHQ.jpg)
You can also see I've filled in some regular vent holes (as per the IXC/40), added some 'blanks' to the vents further down the hull.
Cheers Bob.
-
Hi Bob,
Nice job with the vents, with your drive for accuracy I would suggest you check the deck railings as there were several different styles and Vom Original zum Modell Uboottyp IX isn't totally correct. During research on the U 505 Dougie and myself found some inaccuracies in the book.
Regards
Jon
-
Hi Jon, thanks very much and thanks for the heads up help on the railings, if you spot anything else I need to know, please tell me.
There are so many variations it seems between boats that I'll need all the help I can get spotting them (that shipyard thing again no doubt).
I'm using the Tehnoart railings which will need some bits trimming out at either end and rounding off but otherwise look a fairly good match to me.
Going back to minor differences, looking at these bits I've just added, I did notice that the forward most bow vent fairings are set slightly higher up on the hull of the 889 compared to the 534.
Also, those vent 'blanks' (?- for want of the accurate name) further down the hull side. I noticed that the 534 has the smaller blank in the first vent and the larger in the second, but it's the other way around on the 889.
Looking a lot further ahead, I did notice the large round hole on the top of the port side of the tower at it's forward end and wondered what sits down that?
When captured, in photos, the 889 looks to be missing a small section of deck planking at the front starboard base of the tower and so I'd like to put some detail down there. I think I can see in photos something that looks like three pipes at front and rear?
I can see I won't be able to cover everything, but I might as well have a go at doing what I can? :)
Edit:-
Just finished doing the louvered vents on the other side of the boat and couldn't resist trying it in the sea again to see how we're going so far.
I'm going to be tweaking that bow wave some more to add some more irregularities and break up the 'solid' look.
Plan A is to finish the sea separate from the boat and get the hull finished and painted out of the sea, then combine the two.
The gap around the boat will eventually be filled with more rayon and acrylic medium wake and then I'll add some water draining from some of the vents.
Early days still but some quick shots:-
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/5269/vNQCLq.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/5744/xH7nAs.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/5804/XOQiGi.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/8049/jwUKaO.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/520/cjd4B4.jpg)
Cheers Bob.
-
Hi again,
Just a small update on progress.
I started to look at the bow deck area with a view to at least putting the steel bow area in on the model.
That's when I started to send my eyes funny looking at non-slip stud patterns in photos of U-boats.
The Revell U-505 kit has some spaced out studs in this area (which coincidentally look to match small holes that are evident in photos and on surviving boats).
The rcsubs U-534 deck (seen here) also has opted to space studs out a little in the forward most bow area but keeping the same pattern as the studs in the plate behind.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/7582/CwM3km.jpg)
Because of what I could see in wartime photos, I decided to try to replicate the tighter pattern of studs on the forward most bow plate, but this is easier said than done of course.
I started by sanding off all the existing studs which was a bit of a pain.
It also meant having to mark out and drill all the small holes in their peculiar pattern.
I opted to use some Tamiya 1mm grid pattern masking paper to mark out and drill the holes.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/5219/53VWm1.jpg)
I used the paper again to have indicators for where to 'push my sharp pointer' in order to create a stud impression on the other side of the forward plate (see here after two rows).
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/9627/95c4g5.jpg)
I decided to add a thin layer of paint to this to see what it might look like.
I also had to cut a new slot for the front stay anchor point (it's further back on the '889 because of the 'Zwiebel').
For me the jury's still out on this for the time being, as the rear plate has that 'crispness' and uniformity but perhaps with some patches of rust and paint chipping added, I might get away with it.
Otherwise I'll scratch the front plate or source one with the sort of studs I want.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/5436/a4byVo.jpg)
Edit:- The jury wasn't out long for me on this one. Decided that the front most plate was too irregular and lumpy as a result of pressing from the opposite side so have removed it.
Have left the Anchor plate for the front stay in place and I'll do this area with the Archer surface transfers instead. Was worth an experiment though.
Cheers Bob.
-
Another small update.
I realise these are only small updates, but each time hopefully we make a little progress.
Because there's no actual conversion for the U-889 subject, a fair amount of time is taken up planning and working out ways to solve little areas that need modification.
Anyway, I've moved away from the non-slip studs for a moment (as they will have to wait until I get the Archer surface detail sets) and I thought I'd have a look at some other areas of the sub again.
One thing I noticed was that I'd made a mistake with this project already.
Perhaps you were being polite before but did anyone notice what I'd done wrong in this previous update photo?
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/5744/xH7nAs.jpg)
Yes you all got it!
This is where a little observation and thought helps, rather than presuming things are just symmetrical on these things.
Yes, the blanks in the hull side vents just slightly astern of the steps cutouts don't go on the port side.
They only go on the starboard side on this particular boat and match the beginning of the schnorkel bay.
So they had to be removed for a start.
I then started thinking about what other mods which require destructive surgery need to be done to the hull before getting onto the nice detailing bits that can be done after.
One thing I'd noticed was how the rails (one of which forms the top of the hull side for a section on the starboard side), bulges up along the edges of the schnorkel bay.
Not being able to just add such a thin sliver (at least at the ends), I deceided it'd be best to remove a section of the top of the hull side (nearly as traumatic as sawing the hull in half lengthways for the waterline thing) and to then drop in a profiled replacement.
Here's that job done roughly before it gets refined and re-rivetted (and the blanks fitted in the right spot on the starboard side).
In the background are some of the baffles that I've used on the port side - i know that some of them are U-shaped on the real thing but we won't see that when she's back in the water.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/5737/VwclMg.jpg)
I'd also been thinking about this diesel exhaust that I'd put the question on the forum about. It's a hole that might be big enough to look into so I wanted to put something in there.
I had an idea of what might be in there but this still from a british pathe film is the best view I'd had into one.
I decided not to construct the entire below decks exhaust system but just to 'box the exhaust area in' and add some representational parts of what I can see (or what I think i can see).
This is the bottom of it.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/7516/XcO2Sq.jpg)
and this is the lid of it
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/4276/pmPCGM.jpg)
Which looks like this with a bit of paint in there too.
I'll refine the aperture later but we're getting there (this might have water sloshing in or out when put in the sea base depending on the waterline here).
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4563/GPIDoA.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/7849/nyL4PI.jpg)
Off to source some under deck angle rod supports now. More soon hopefully.
Cheers Bob.
-
Good job, mate! Keep up the great work. :D
-
Fantastic build so far.
I really love the water.
Oh, and the work on the hull, the amazing details you're adding, they're brilliant too. Love it.
-
Thanks for the encouraging comments gents.
Another small report on progress.
The brass deck requires some reinforcements adding to the underside to give rigidity and to place at the right height in the hull.
I added these strips in this random layout, avoiding gaps between planks.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/7791/tU3u2F.jpg)
I also decided to give the interior a coat of dark grey in order to see what might show up through the gaps between deck planking.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/1638/0UVQoB.jpg)
I also gave a coat to a 'sub deck' and to the underside of the brass.
I'm as yet undecided on whether to remove the half painted brass studded bow plate or not, as it requires some stud modification (if you were wondering about that).
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/1368/fqVny5.jpg)
Loose fit check of the brass foredeck on its own.
Not much shows up through the gaps when painted like this, with only the light coming through the far vents being properly visible, but the deck like this still feels fragile.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/3038/QkjJjp.jpg)
This is the brass deck with the sub-deck fitted beneath it. I realise that the real thing didn't have one of these and that the framework and pressure hull should be visible between slots but
the deck feels a lot firmer with this in place and I think the overall effect I want (with the emphasis on external appearance in the swell) this might be the better option.
will think about this while doing the schnorkel bay.
Cheers bob.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/6586/MiOA41.jpg)
-
I feel your pain, about cutting & gluing the under-deck spars in place. :D
But in the end, it is worth it.
-
Did you finish your project?