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SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: Katuna on 08 May , 2019, 10:06

Title: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 08 May , 2019, 10:06

Does anyone have any pics or info on the refrigeration plant and evaporator/provisions locker? I have the Krupp manual that gives a brief description but I can't figure out where the components are. The Compressor/Condenser is supposed to be in the Control Room and the Evap/Provisions Locker in the NCO compartment. Being in the HVAC trade (and being a total nerd for any old HVAC equipment), I'd really like to find any pics of the components or at least where they're located.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 08 May , 2019, 14:07

Hi Katuna
Im modelling a 1/48 U552 and the only photo I've found to date is on of the Provisions fridge on U995.
As U995 was updated postwar by Norway, I'm not sure if its WW2.


The boat itself obviously had a lot of compression gear on board but for provision refrigeration it may have been self contained.
Also I read that in the Galley some sources state a small Fridge inside the outside wall but I've never seen it.


As for the compressors etc they may be in the fridge but troll around www.U-Historia.com (http://www.U-Historia.com)
They have a huge amount of info but if you don't read Spanish convert it to English in Google when you search the site.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 08 May , 2019, 15:41

Is that photo in the NCO quarters? I can just make out the edge of the wood frame work of the bunks and a bit of the orange bedding cover. I'm surprised it would be that small given the added amount of weight the refrigeration system would add to the boat. Hardly seems like it was worth the trouble for the small amount of fresh food you could fit in there.


Thanks so much for the pic. That's the only one I've ever seen.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 08 May , 2019, 16:08

Yes that's just aft of the control room.
If you leave the control room going aft into the NCO area it would be directly left if you are  facing aft.


And also I think another even smaller fridge was in the gallery area. On the wall by the sink. They called it a Provision locker with a fridge inside.
And I think refrigeration was in its practical infancy back then so a lot of meat etc was seasoned and salted so maybe the fridge requirements were small
But no pictures yet.


Also I'm sure I read in the U505 and U534 capture reports about refrigeration

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 08 May , 2019, 16:37

Just went through U-Historia. I had glanced at that site some time back but never dug into it. Wow! What a great site. Tons of info in there. Was working my Google Translate overtime.


As to refrigeration infancy, it is actually because of my grandfather that I am in the trade. He volunteered for refrigeration school during WWII and was a refrig. mechanic during the landings in Normandy. He went into the trade after he came home and latter my father went into the trade. I just marked 30 years of the same so you can see why I have a weird obsession on the subject.


I'm with you on the Provisions storage in the Galley. I don't think there was enough room in the Port cabinet.


I too am building the Trumpeter U-552 as U-371 in the Mediterranean. Quite the daunting challenge if you want it correct but I'm a superdetail nut so the kit is tailor made for it.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 08 May , 2019, 16:51

Yep I'm into my 2nd year completely rebuilding the Trumpeter kit because it so innacurate


Just completing the Tower. The Periscope tower is only sitting there and Uzo going in soon

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: SG on 09 May , 2019, 03:46

 Hi Katuna, I am not sure the Type VII A, B and C's had a food refrigerator, at least early in the war. Type VII F were equipped w refrigerators as well as Type IX, type XIV and XXI. This is a Good topic indeed. Type VII C manual at http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual/Manual.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual/Manual.htm) (page 148) describes the refrigeration system of the boats. Anyway i havent found information about a fridge for food storage. Am sure you are already familiar with this page: https://uboat.net/men/foodstuffs.htm (https://uboat.net/men/foodstuffs.htm) about food storage in a Type IX boat. Will do some more research as soon as am back home tonight and let you know if I find something interesting. Am sure Tore knows about it.
Cheers,
SG

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 09 May , 2019, 04:18

I just noticed in my photo the heater in a strange place behind the fridge
Obviously the heater was installed before the fridge.
And I read somewhere that Snakedoc Marciek (RIP) wrote that these heaters were post WW2 so it makes sense that the fridge wasn't WW2.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 09 May , 2019, 08:14

I noticed the heater too. Thought that was odd. I was led to believe that those were installed when the boat was converted into a museum but obviously they wouldn't mount that where they did if that was the case. If you look overhead, there is a piece of the wiring raceway common to the museum lighting retrofit. There are also brackets on the bulkhead so something else was in there originally.


The plot thickens...

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 09 May , 2019, 08:33

Ray - I've been following your build. I'm just getting started myself. Been doing tons of research (which I love doing, so that helps). There seems to be no one place to start that doesn't require a crapload of extra work so I jumped in armpit deep into the Engine room. Simon Morris' drawings led me here. It's someplace I can ask questions and actually get answers back! Hopefully I don't make a nuisance of myself over time.


Really like your conning tower/attack 'scope detail. The bridge is shaping up nicely too. Is that the Eduard MG15?

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 09 May , 2019, 23:07

Katuna
No the MG34 is a Tamiya kit on with an RB brass barrel

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: SG on 11 May , 2019, 00:02

Hi, did some research:
I found plenty of information and very good pics on the french publication "Los Hors-Serie 09: La vie a bord des U-boote".
http://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/image3.jpg
Also check your PM inbox
Cheers

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 11 May , 2019, 06:27

Cool SG.
Can you share this info??

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: SG on 11 May , 2019, 10:37

Info is not about the refrigeration am afraid but mostly about storage of provisions, cooking etc. (Raymic check PM).
The book tells only about a refrigerator located opposite to the electric stove, but am not so sure this is true on the type VII a,b,c's. Maybe U995 refrigerator is the source of a misinterpretation or there was indeed a refrigerator on board but only for a very limited use because of its small dimensions. Really interesting.
Anyway don't forget to store bread loafs in hammoks suspended in the electric engines' space and stuff one of the toilets with plenty of provisions ;D !

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 11 May , 2019, 12:08

Yes, already found several sources for provision, both fresh and canned. Also, found a source for netting that looks close to the correct size and type. I'm modelling towards the end of a particular patrol so I don't need to stuff the aft WC! Can't forget the piss buckets anyway though.


Thanks again for the additional info. Any info is appreciated, even if I can't read it. Already started translating though.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 11 May , 2019, 20:49

Some more info from a couple of my reference books states that Freezers were introduced from the D version on-wards due to the extra space of the D over the C types.




HOWEVER the U570 ( a Type VIIC )capture report states that they had............
"A small refrigerator, combined with little stowage for food and a small galley, "

So as the report was done WW2 on U570 it would confirm a small Refrigerator somewhere.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 11 May , 2019, 21:02

Also see some pictures of U995 galley area. Quite a few locked cupboards that I read somewhere may have had a small refridgerator.
Possibly though Post War.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 11 May , 2019, 21:17

Also see some more pictures from U995. A Type V11C/41
There is an extra cupboard that generally isn't on Type V11C drawings.


Although my drawing is from Westwoods book, I just noticed that this cupboard is WW2 as its on the U570 WW2 drawing.


This cupboard is opposite the 2nd Electric Boiler/Cooker which is the Large Silver Circular "Soup or Stew type one behind the door.
Possibly this is what they are referring too and there may be refrigeration in there?


Maybe Mr Tore can recall what this cupboard was used for as its just outside the Engine room?

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: SG on 12 May , 2019, 07:38

Quote from: Raymic1 on 11 May , 2019, 20:49

HOWEVER the U570 ( a Type VIIC )capture report states that they had............
"A small refrigerator, combined with little stowage for food and a small galley, "

Good Catch!! 8)

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 15 May , 2019, 16:25

Ray - The best I have been able to tell is the cabinet in front of the WC is just a pantry/storage cabinet. I believe the U-995 "fridge" is where the original box would have been. I have found two separate docs that state the "Evaporator" (which would be the fridge) was located in the PO quarters. It has to have been on either the Port or Stbd side of the forward bulkhead. The opposite side would have been a wardrobe cabinet, I think. Isn't that what is on the Port side of U-995?


Now, where the heck was the Comp/Cond "Plant" located? It's supposed to be in the Control Room but I have never seen it called out on any drawing. I would think it would be in the general area around the Water Distiller as it would have probably shared the sea water supply, some going to the distiller and some going to the water cooled condenser of the "Plant".

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 18 Jun , 2019, 14:13

So, to dredge up an old topic, I have a thought on where the compressor/condenser is located. While going through photos of a build on another site, the builder posted a photo of his interpretation of the compressor unit. He had it located in the Control Room on the Stbd side at the aft bulkhead. It was sitting outboard of the valves under the small stowage basket. It appears there may be a water cooled condenser in this pic. There is also a vertical motor. This location would make sense since the refrigerated cabinet appears to have been located in the forward Stbd portion of the NCO quarters.

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 19 Jun , 2019, 03:51

From U-Historia..... In the submersible, a refrigeration plant is installed for food preservation and ice production. It consists of a refrigeration unit, located in the control room, and a refrigeration chamber in the NCO room. The cooling unit consists of a compressor with its drive motor and condenser. The refrigeration chamber houses the evaporator. The cooling is achieved by collecting external heat by means of a coolant (freon), which thus vaporizes. The process is maintained, when the freon vapor is extracted, pressurized by the compressor, and condensed to liquid. The side of the evaporator of the compressor, provides the low pressure required to evaporate the refrigerant, while the side of the condenser, provides the high pressure necessary for the condensation of the vapor. The movements of coolant, from the condenser to the evaporator, circulate through a regulating valve. The valve maintains the constant flow of refrigerant and despite its double state changes, it does not allow it to vary anywhere in the refrigeration circuit. The compressor is an air cooler, 1 stage, 2-cylinder, piston and vertical design type. Both cylinders and cylinder heads are presented as a block, which is screwed to the crankcase. The compressor is driven by a shunt DC motor with auxiliary series winding. The motor cover is protected against splashing water, and is resistant to humidity and to the inclination of the submersible up to 30

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Raymic1 on 19 Jun , 2019, 03:55

		Fridge
	DC motor	Refrigeration compressor
Maker	BBC Mannheim	BBC Mannheim
Model	GS 5 a
Power	0.5 / 0.65 kW (total input)	250 Changes / hour
Vaporizer temperature		-15

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 22 Jun , 2019, 13:33

Raymic - Thanks for posting that. I have that buried somewhere. I tried searching that data online hoping to find a picture but to no avail.


Don Prince verified so detective work I was doing in regards to this annoying little topic for me. I am, by trade, a commercial HVAC mechanic as well as a history hound so I love old air conditioning/refrigeration equipment. That's why I have been trying to track down such specific info on such an innocuous little part of the boat. We still don't know what the evaporator cabinet looked like nor the complete compressor/condenser unit, but I have enough to make some semi-educated guesses.


Thanks to everyone who helped out. Now, on to the next insignificant detail that I can find to obsess on...

Title: Re: Type VIIC Refrigeration Plant
Post by: Katuna on 22 Jun , 2019, 13:54

Here are the images Don posted in Tore's mailbox as well as a more recent pic for clarity. Anyone headed to Laboe in the near future? I need some close up photos!