Author Topic: German Torpedo Color?  (Read 112130 times)

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Offline SG

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #180 on: 23 Mar , 2015, 11:59 »
Natter, thank you very much for the reply which contains, as usual, very hi quality and detailed technical information: what a longevity for a project (the G7) which, if am not wrong, dates back to WWI!
And thank you for educting me about the practice heads.
In the meanwhile i managed to find out the picture i missed to have clarified the sequence of torpedo loading at Lorient: torpedo barge-crane barge-Uboat-mooring ship

Cheers and thanks again!

« Last Edit: 23 Mar , 2015, 12:09 by SG »

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #181 on: 23 Mar , 2015, 13:26 »
what a longevity for a project (the G7) which, if am not wrong, dates back to WWI!
Well, if you consider the predecessors then yes:
The G/6 and G/7 torpedoes (50cm diametre) were developed around 1905, and was among the main types used in WW1. Skipping a number of other modellines and variants, the G7s came around 1920 and then the G7v was ready a couple of years later. The G7v introduced some new features and was the direct predecessor for the G7a which was the first german 53,34cm torpedo and ready around 1925 (it was fielded - ie operational on german vessels - in 1930). It came as a direct consequence of the new "torpedostandard" of 21" / 533,4mm).
Some of the older designs, like the G250, G/7 and G7v, also saw limited use for a good part of WW2.

In the meanwhile i managed to find out the picture i missed to have clarified the sequence of torpedo loading at Lorient: torpedo barge-crane barge-Uboat-mooring ship
Good :)  The torpedo in the photo is a G7e (TII or TIII variant) btw.

Offline SG

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #182 on: 15 Apr , 2015, 11:55 »

Hi,
some more ideas for your projects and why not, research:

Nose-art: "mit liebe"



Inner part of middle-section's aft-end showing hidden details + propeller-section



propellers details


From the (really outstanding) book "S-boote" by Jean Philippe Dallies-Labourdette, edited by Histoire & collections which i finally managed to purchase
Cheers!
SG
« Last Edit: 15 Apr , 2015, 12:04 by SG »

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #183 on: 15 Apr , 2015, 14:43 »
Inner part of middle-section's aft-end showing hidden details + propeller-section
Well, that's actually the part of the hull covering the engine - it slides over the engine when the airtank and aftsections are joined. The different tubings (air for pressurizing the fluids and water/decaline/oil from the tanks) are all mounted in one common coupling. In addition to the main airpipe from the airtank these are the only connections between the two sections, making it fairly easy to divide/connect the torpedo.
propellers details
4-blade, ie: early production.
From the (really outstanding) book "S-boote" by Jean Philippe Dallies-Labourdette, edited by Histoire & collections which i finally managed to purchase
Nice photos - the last two are also found in other books, so I presume they are from Bundesarchiv.

Offline SG

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #184 on: 16 Apr , 2015, 02:20 »
The different tubings (air for pressurizing the fluids and water/decaline/oil from the tanks) are all mounted in one common coupling. In addition to the main airpipe from the airtank these are the only connections between the two sections, making it fairly easy to divide/connect the torpedo.
That's exactly why i posted the picture for: i was damn curious to know what those cables (pipes actually) were meant for!
Thanks Natter, always a pleasure to read your replies! 

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #185 on: 16 Apr , 2015, 07:00 »
Some illustration/photos:

EDIT: Ooops... I was a bit too hasty when adding the text, and I see now that I have switched the water and air-pipes in the torpedocoupling (image 6.jpg). Sorry.
« Last Edit: 16 Apr , 2015, 07:09 by Natter »

Offline SG

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #186 on: 17 Apr , 2015, 13:31 »
Whoa! Stunning piece of machinery

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #187 on: 22 Apr , 2015, 10:33 »
Was the center of gravity marking on all torpedos?
Probably not... I have seen lot of photos showing no markings. I have not seen any documents with guidelines for this, and have no idea if there was a certain colour to be used.
Well, I stumbled upon a drawing from a german G7e manuel, and it shows the markings with specified color "grün", so it seems green is the colour to use for almost all markings on the torpedo.

bgfreer

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #188 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 06:33 »
I came across this thread when looking for details of G7a parts that I have recently received.


According to the chap who supplied them - they came from a search of a military dump in Weimar.


The speed controller is similar but different to the one shown.


There is also a hatch a connecting rod and two other parts. The ordnance code is from Bundaberg.


Most have a wavy line/star marking.


Can you assist with confirming where on the engine these parts lie ?


Thanks

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #189 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 07:42 »
Can you assist with confirming where on the engine these parts lie ?
speed controller.jpg:
This is a (heavy corroded) speedcontroller. It's similar to the one you can see in photos I have posted before, but the "torpedocoupling" has the part from the airtank connected, thus making it to appear a little different.


DSC_0012.jpg:
This is the oil-distribution mechanism. It's mounted on the front cover of the engineblock and being run via a gear mounted on the engine's crankshaft (acting on the gear at the left in your photo).
It distributes "bursts" of oil to lubricate the different mechanisms in the torpedo (foremost the engine itself and the propeller-axle/crossdrive).

The vertical shaft on your photo is a link connecting to a rod driving the torpedo's distance-mechanism/"brake-mechanism". The "brake-mechanism" (in lack of a better english word...) keeps the torpedo's depthrudder locked downwards (typically at about 10 degrees) for the initial running distance (adjustable - typically 150-200m). When the engine-revolutions have turned this mechanism from the set distance to zero, a lever activates a rod lifting the hook locking the depthmechanism's servoengine, allowing the depthmechansim to function and control the rudder.
The distance-mechansim works in a similar way (but with a different gear, so it runs a lot slower): When it has moved down from the set distance (max 12000m), a lever will release the startinglever which again will shut off the main airsupply, as well as the supply of fuel, water and oil, making the engine stop and the torpedo slow down and seek to the surface.

On torpedoes equipped with a programsteering-device (ie Fat or Lut), there would also be a flexible axle connected to the left gear, transmitting the engine RPM's to the steeringdevice (to control the lenght of the straight legs and turns of the "zic-zac" running pattern).


DSC_0013.jpg:
The part on the right I think must belong to the depthmechanism (the axl transferring the movement of the pendolum to the servoengine), but it's different than the ones from the TA I and II mechanisms used after 1942, so again: An early variant I think.


DSC_0017.jpg:

This puzzles me (I'd like to see more photos from other sides, and measurements), but judging by all your photos, the parts comes from an early production torpedo, and there were several modifications from the first G7a(TI) version in 1925 to those being made later (and especially after 1940).
It might be an early variant of the seawater-pump (a simple gear-pump distributing seawater to the channels casted in the engineblock for cooling of the engine), but it's impossible to tell wihtout measurements and other photos.


DSC_0019.jpg:
Again, this would be very useful to see from other angles and some measurements... (is it the same as DSC_0017.jpg??)
Obviously it's mounted in the hull probably in the gyroscope compartment or an exersice-head, but other than confirming it's from a very early produced torpedo I can't tell exacly what it is right now (might not be from a G7a at all).


DSC_0023.jpg:
This is the hatch for the gyroscopecompartment. The iron ring on the front is an inlay of the hatch (which itself has been completely corroded), and the cross underneath is the part locking it in place (again: As this is made of brass, it's obvioulsy a very early produced torpedo).

bgfreer

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #190 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 08:53 »
Natter thank you - just what I had hoped from seeing your earlier informed replies - it sis much appreciated.


I attach pictures of what it looked like before i cleaned them up - 70+ years in the ground at Weimar were not kind.


The unknown part - I attach two other photos.


The top brass circle (pepperpot) had steel riveted around it - so I assumed it was on the outside of the hull. It is 55mm  on the shiny brass raised section and 87 mm on the outside diameter.


The bottom circle has an od of 15.25cm and has the remains of a steel edge that was spot welded onto the rim.


Total height is 75mm rising to max 85mm.


Does this help ?




bgfreer

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #191 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 09:34 »
A final question - the speed controller has the two brass forward plugs that have OL and Br inside the tops sections. Inside there are two screws with plastic plates - with numbers around the edge and the same OL and Br.


Any guidance on what the initials are for ?

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #192 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 09:58 »
Thanks. I'm none the wiser regarding this part though , but it's not from an ordinary G7a(TI) for sure. If all the parts are from the same torpedo, it must have been an early variant of something that was replaced later on (I can't figure out what though).

The germans did a lot of reseacrh and development on torpedoes during the war - especially on the ingolin (hydrogen peroxide) propulsion. Some of those torpedoes used the G7a as a basis, even with the standard G7a engine. As this part seems to have been some sort of intake for seawater, I suspect it might have been connected to something like that (as it happens, I got a few hundred pages and drawings of the german ingolintorpedoes just last week, but a quick browsing thorugh that material didn't show any similar part, although the quality of the drawings are quite poor...). This development resulted in a lot of experimental parts in addition to those that ended up as valid designs in production torpedoes.
The british and US occupied the TVA-facilities for over a year after the war doing their own tests and evaluation of the german torpedoes, and when finished they just collected everything they didn't need and would bring back to UK/US and dumped it in the sea not far from the former TVA-facilities. Today there are groups of people diving there and salvaging a lot of torpedoparts that they refurbish and sell to collectors. Therefore, there is a lot of "odd" parts floating around that doesn't seem to fit in with the known torpedosesigns. Wether this is such a part, or just happens to be part of another torpedo I can't tell.

In addition to the main TVA sites and torpedoranges in Eckernförde and Gotenhafen + the Marinewerft Wilhelmshafen, these are the other sources for manufacture of torpedoes and -parts:

 * Berliner Maschinenbau AG - former "Schwartzkopf" (Berlin)
 * Bergmann Elektricitäts Werke AG (Berlin-Wilhelmsruh.
 * Siemens-Schuckert Werke AG (Berlin-Siemensstadt)
 * Schäffer & Budenberg GmbH (Magdeburg-Buckau)
 * Deutsche Werke AG (Kiel)
 * Planeta Druckmaschinen-Werke AG (Radebul, Dresden)
 * Auto-Union AG (Zwickau)
 * Bergward Werke AG (Bremen)
 * Julius Pintsch AG (Berlin-Fürstenwalde)
 * Maschinenfabrik Buckau (Magdeburg)
 * Friedrich Krupp AG (Essen)
 * C.G. Haubold AG (Chemnitz)
 * Rehinmetall-Borsig AG (Düsseldorf)
 * Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken AG (Karlsruhe)
 * R. Stock & Co AG (Berlin-Marienfelde)
 * Harburger Eisen- und Bronzewerk AG (Hamburg-Harburg l)
 * Dreyer, Rosenkranz & Droop AG (Hanover)
 * Deutsche STAR Kugelhalter GmbH (Schweinfurt)
 * Heinrich H. Klüssendorf (Berlin-Spandau)

None of these sites are in close proximity to Weimar as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure if it's likely to be a dumpsite for parts originating from any of the factories involved with the german torpedomanufacture.
Perhaps your site is just a place used for dumping all kinds of junk, and thus the parts might be random parts from different torpedoes - even of different nationalities.

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #193 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 10:04 »
A final question - the speed controller has the two brass forward plugs that have OL and Br inside the tops sections. Inside there are two screws with plastic plates - with numbers around the edge and the same OL and Br.
There's no plastic in there, but perhaps a plate of bakelite or something (or perhaps there's a rubbergasket that has turned into a hard plastic-like substance).

The letters are "Öl" (oil) and "Br" = Brennstoff (fuel).
Behind those plugs you will find the nozzles regulating the amount of oil and fuel being passed on (hence the function of the speedregulator). There are one corresponding nozzle for each speed-setting (30/40/44kn - smallest opening for the lowest speed, largest opening for the highest speed). There's a similar nozzle behind the corroded plug for water (it was marked with a "W").
« Last Edit: 24 Jan , 2016, 10:11 by Natter »

Offline Natter

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Re: German Torpedo Color?
« Reply #194 on: 24 Jan , 2016, 10:38 »
Here are some illustrations from M.Dv. Nr. 358A Torpedo G7a Zeichnungen (1941).

1: The arrangement of the engine and the gyroscope-compartment. You can see the gyro-hatch and it's locking-cross at the bottom, as well as the "claw" locking the servomotor for the depthrudders.

2: Showing the frontplate of the engine, and the oil-distribution mechanism

3: Details of the oil-distribution mechanism, and how it's connected to the distance- and "brake" mechanisms (here you also see the arrangement for locking the depthrudder: The claw is lifted as soon as the mechanism are turned down to zero).

4: Details of the depthmechanism. The axl marked "17" is the only possible candidate for the one in your photo "DSC_0013.jpg", although it's quite different in design...

5: Details of the speedregulator's construction.
« Last Edit: 24 Jan , 2016, 10:45 by Natter »