German Torpedo Color?

[SG]

Hi,
I found another picture of a barge carrying excercise torpedoes very similar (if not the same) to the one i posted some time ago, which Dougie was writing about. Same colour pattern of the heads, better definition, details of the aft portion of the torpedoes.
Natter, I hope the image can add new details and help you to identify the nationality of the torpedoes (french/german).
Dougie, as you have already noticed, the barge is moored next to a type IX : perfect for the diorama you are planning to build!
Cheers!
SG 

[Natter]

Natter, I hope the image can add new details and help you to identify the nationality of the torpedoes (french/german).

Thanks, nice picture - is this from one of  Luc Braeuer's books as well?

The torpedoes appear to be german G7a(TI) - maybe early productions, but it's hard to be 100% sure from this photo which is lacking certain details on the aftsection.
I think I can see a guidingknob on the tail and on the enginesection, so they are probably meant for use from a U-boat (logical anyway from the context).

The heads puzzles me though: The pattern is not the usual "standard" (although I have seen it before on a photo showing a torpedo being loaded on a sub), but the most intrigueing part is the lack of any specific details that should identify the type - like the blowing mechanisms etc.

I wonder is this could be G7a(TIü) torpedoes - ie the slightly modified TI used for training purposes on schulboote..?  The TIü had the old depthmechansim (could explain the lack of the green ring around the cover for the depthmechanism on the photo). Furthermore, the TIü was equipped with a simple, empty (ie not waterfilled) exersicehead without any blowingmechanism giving the TIü very short range and positive buoyancy (the purpose of the TIü's was to enable a high number of shots at low cost and with low stress on the torpedoes, giving the crew in the U-boat school more training in shorter time). That could explain the unusual pattern on the heads as well, distinguishing them from proper exersiceheads...

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,

That does sound very plausible. Would I be right in saying that the TIü was used in mid-1940 when the new depth-keeping apparatus was brought into service? And that in the summer of 1940 they had quite a few of the old depth-keeping apparatus left over and so used them on the TIü (depth keeping wouldn't be essential in training shots). 

The only thing is that I am not sure that Lorient was used for school boats? The background does look very much like Lorient but I wouldn't like to say for sure that it is definitely this base.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Natter]

Would I be right in saying that the TIü was used in mid-1940 when the new depth-keeping apparatus was brought into service?

I have twisted my brain to remember were I found the TIü information - it's not mentioned in any of the major books, but no luck so far (it could be in a microfilm from NARA, but that's hours of manual searching...). Anyway: I don't think there was any more info besides that I already have put up on the Wikipedia-article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_torpedoes_of_Germany ), so I don't know when these torpedoes (TIü and TIü Lut II) were put into service. From the reason they did, I would assume it was more likely later than sooner though.

And that in the summer of 1940 they had quite a few of the old depth-keeping apparatus left over and so used them on the TIü (depth keeping wouldn't be essential in training shots).

Well, I don't think they did much rebuilding of the torpedoes (hence the system of painting on stripes and circles to identify torpedoes with new engines and/or depthmechanisms). If I remember correctly, the depth-setting problem with the first mechanisms was due to long-term storage onboard with numerous changes in airpressure, and it would probably not be a big problem when used on U-boats on shortrange patrols? Also, the "old" torpedoes could have been dedicated for use on surface-vessels with no problems. But, of course: They would use the "low end" material for training (just for the record: Depth-setting was absolutely cruical for training shots, as they fired upon other vessels, and could risk hitting the hull if there was a failure. It wouldn't be a problem if the torpedo went a bit too deep though.

The only thing is that I am not sure that Lorient was used for school boats? The background does look very much like Lorient but I wouldn't like to say for sure that it is definitely this base.

My main interest is related to the the technical aspect of the torpedoes, and I have very limited knowledge of the organisation and operations of U-boats. I bet some of the guys on Uboat.net or Jerry, Thorsten etc might have an idea?

[SG]

Thanks, nice picture - is this from one of  Luc Braeuer's books as well?

Natter, I found the picture in the book "U-boat Owner Workshop Manual" edited by Haynes. The picture source given in the book is"Triangle". I tried to look for it in the bibliography but there's nothing.  is Triangle a photo archive? dunno.


Excellent analysys Natter, as usual.


I have No ideas about the location either, Dougie. the barge's profile and her outer edge, the background and the jetty look very similar to the ones in the other picture that i have already posted. Also, the torpedo with no circles painted on the head which is being lifted by the crane could very well be be the same one (with no decorated head and with the wooden support on top) in the previously posted picture.. 
   

[dougie47]

Hi gents,
 
I've had a closer look at the location and compared it to other photos showing the same torpedoes on the same barge. I'm pretty certain it is Lorient, either in late 40 or early 41.
 
The torpedo barge was moored next to another barge with a small crane on it (number 4). This torpedo crane was located just to the east side of what I believe is the pontoon Martiniere. There was enough space between the crane barge and the Martiniere for a U-boat (either IX or VII) to be moored.

There is a photo showing the Martiniere, the torpedo barge and the crane barge all together with the 150 ton crane, which was a very distinctive crane seen in mnay photos of Lorient. The photo also shows dock 5 and 7, on the east side of the Scorff (these are also very distinctive in the Lorient landscape) and are commonly seen in many U-boat photos at the base. So I'm pretty sure it is Lorient.
 
Natter, yes you are right, depth keeping must have been important due to the issue of hitting the hull on practice shots.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[SG]

Dougie while you were writing i compared the pictures too and YES, the pictures match:the 10.5 cm gun of the type IX is also visible. Lorient, pretty much sure, the picture caption of the top picture said it was taken in Lorient. I can't recall where i found the picture i posted at the time though, i found another identical one with a better definition in the haynes manual, but the caption says nothing about the place. 

[Natter]

is Triangle a photo archive? dunno.

Me neither...

the torpedo with no circles painted on the head which is being lifted by the crane could very well be be the same one (with no decorated head and with the wooden support on top) in the previously posted picture..

It's obviously the same barge/situation, judging by your latest photo. Also, they all seem to be the same type of torpedoes/heads, although on some heads the paint have worn off (it was very common for the exerciseheads to need repaint with regular intervalls).

Your new photo is sharper than the one posted earlier in this thread, and I'm getting more convinced that these are actually TIü's, as the only other option for G7a(TI) would be the type 1210 or 1215 exersice heads.

[Natter]

While I'm online - here are a couple of photos I found in another forum recently.

ubungstorpedo-Bergung.jpg - Interesting, as it's the only photo I have seen showing the name of the ship (T-Boot "Jaguar") on the torpedo itself...
im einsatz.jpg - Showing a G7a(TI) being maintained on a surfacevessel (they are running the engine by means of low-pressure air applied via the waterchamber - judging by the other tolls visible, they are probably doing a "after-shot" routine, cleaning out the engine and the valves with kerosene).
Bremen 1945.jpg -  This appears to be torpedo mock-ups. Never seen this before (besides partly, in a Wochenshau showing them in use testing new torpedotubes at a factory).

[Natter]

I'm finishing off with two current photos from the torpedobattery at Herdla (originally established by the germans as MAA 504 Torpedobatterie Hjelte).
Here we currently have one original G7a(TI), nine T1 mod 1 torpedoes (ie the ex-german G7a(TI), modified with wireguidance in the late 60's and fully computerized control in the 90's), two TP613 and three TP612 torpedoes (+ some heads, pistols, fully stacked torpedoworkshop etc).

[SG]

Natter am glad you finally identified those TIü's!! Also, i love the new pictures you found!
Dougie you were (obviously) right about Lorient, i did some photo research and found a plan of the Scorff, with the barge and its distinctive crane shown both in the technical drawing and in the lower left picture (circled). moored alongside the crane barge there's probably the torpedoes barge. Also, check the sovrastructure of the ponton Martiniere in the frame, which matches just fine with the sovrastructure of the ponton in the torpedoes picture. It's definitely Lorient (and that picture's caption was correct about the location, every now and then there's still some correct caption ).
Good!

[dougie47]

Hi SG,

That's the same map I referred to, from one of Luc Braeuer's Lorient books. I think in 1940 and 1941 U-boats usually moored off the pontoons beside the Quai du persistyle. But I've also seen them off the more northerly pontoons such as the Psyche too. Luc's books were very useful as they allowed me to figure out where the locations were in all the U 47 photos.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[SG]

Dougie, my congratulations for your 360° knowledge of Uboots, and for the sharp-eye! Luc Braeuer's books are magnificent, real must-have. I am happy we all came to the conclusions that: a) those torpedoes were german; b) the scene of the picture is set in Lorient, possibly 1940/41.

Natter: It's amazing that geman torpedoes were in use after the war and received updating with wire-guidance!
A question from an ignorant me: did the practice heads contain explosive? did they detonate? if so the torpedo couldn't be recuperated and re-used. can you enlighten me?

Cheers and have a good weekend both of you!
SG

[Natter]

Natter: It's amazing that geman torpedoes were in use after the war and received updating with wire-guidance!

Sorry, for a late reply: yet again, there's no notice from the forum.

Yes, both danish and norwegian navies made their own wireguidance-version of the G7a(TI) in the mid 60's. The danish version was designated "T1T" (T for "trådstyrt", ie wireguided), while the norwegian version was designated "T1 mod 1". I don't remember when the danish T1T were phased out, but they didn't use them as long as us. Both mods were similar, but not compatible (we have a couple of the danish modded gyroscopes at Herdla).
The T1 mod 1 received 3 additional modifications - the last one in 1992, when the old electronics was replaced with a fully computerized module, introducing two-way datacommunication with the firecontrolsystem. Originally, the controlsystem only transmitted single pulses - each pulse changing the course by one degree port/starboard. After the modification, the torpedo would receive full information on the targets position, course and speeed, as well as it's own position, waypoints etc (we could also launch torpedoes continuously, not having to wait for the previous engagement to finish: The FCS could handle 50 targets and 8 torpedoes in the sea, also reassigning targets after launch ++). There were also a newly developed speedsensor fitted to the torpedo, to get more relibale speedmeasurments. This way, the torpedo could track the target based on the last updated info in case the guidance wire broke (a common problem - especially with salvos of 2-4 torpedoes). If the torpedo missed the expected location of the target, a computer-controlled "search-pattern" would be initiated.
The torpedo was finally phased  out in 1999, replaced by the more modern swedish TP613 (a combined wireguided/acoustic seeker torpedo).

Mechanically, the german torpedo worked just as well as they did in the 1940's - even after hundreds of exersiceshots. The only problem (and what finally sealed it's fate) was increased internal corrosion of the airtanks, making it too hazardous filling it with pressurized air (for the last year or so, there were restrictions on max pressure, and we could only use torpedoes that had been x-rayed and inspected thoroughly for corrosion and that met a minimum standard for thickness of the goods in the airtank).

[Natter]

A question from an ignorant me: did the practice heads contain explosive? did they detonate? if so the torpedo couldn't be recuperated and re-used. can you enlighten me?

Excersiseheads contain no explosives - the sole purpose of it is to ensure the torpedo can be salvaged after the run to be reused.

There are several types of exersice heads, but the german heads (and most common during that period) was waterfilled with it's own flasks of pressurized air. When launched, the blowing mechanism in the head would be activated, and when the torpedo slowed down at the end of it's run, it would open a valve for the air, blowing the water out of the head through a kingston-valve (one-way). This way, the torpedo would float vertically in the water and could be picked up by a salvage vessel and brought back to shore for maintenance and storage until the next exercise.

To ensure positive buyoancy, the torpedo would only be filled with as much air as needed for the shot (ie according to the set distance of the run). For a war-shot the 576 litre airtank would always be filled to max pressure (ie 200 bar), actually giving some additonal explosive effect in the target - depending on the residual pressure at time of impact.

Most modern torpedoes are electrically powered, and they will often have an empty "excersicemodule" added to ensure positive buoyancy after the run. Also, some torpedoes have an inflateable "balloon" packed in the head, for this purpose (I have attached a photo of the norwegian version TP613 - the original version had a different style "balloon").

I have attached a couple of photos showing german WW2 exersiceheads, one showing the torpedo floating. The smoke is from a canister of carbide: When exposed to seawater and then air, it will generate thick yellow smoke, to aid the fishingvessel locating it (the smoke was hazardous, and in RNoN it was replaced by an electronic directional sender in the mid 80's).
The other photos shows the norwegian version TP613 floating and being picked up by the "fishing vessel".