German Torpedo Color?

[dougie47]

Hello gents,
 
Here is a colour photo (showing a dark grey warhead) you might like -

http://thescuttlefish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/torp-huge.jpg

Another is below (from U 995: Das U-Boot vor dem Marine-Ehrenmal in Laboe by Eckard Wetzel) -



I note that the oval plates are not covered with grease. I always thought these were inspection covers, is this correct?

Does anyone know what these oval covers were made of? Aluminium perhaps? They are a lighter colour than the steel bodies of the torpedo.

Thanks for any help.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie
 

[Natter]

Here is a colour photo (showing a dark grey warhead) you might like -

It's the famous "Aruba-torpedo" (there's more records and photos from the incident on a dedicated website, which I don't remember the name of now). In addition to Life magazine, there were also a report in National Geographic.
The early Pi-G7a-AZ mechanical impact pistol (like the one in the photo of the G7e(TII)) was very dangerous to handle as the the tiny lockingscrews for the firing pins could break very easy. Very shortly after these photos were taken, the warhead detonated, killing several dutch EOD-personell in the proces of removing the pistol from the warhead.

I note that the oval plates are not covered with grease. I always thought these were inspection covers, is this correct?

Yes - for the batterychamber (mainly for venting of gases caused by recharging and preheating).

Does anyone know what these oval covers were made of? Aluminium perhaps? They are a lighter colour than the steel bodies of the torpedo.

It's a good question: The hatches are identical in size, shape and construction to the gyroscope-hatch on both the G7a and G7e torpedoes. The hatches on the torpedo on display in Chicago (U-505) seem to be of the same sort of steel as the hull, although other museums show a lighter "colour"). My best educated guess: The hatches were nickle-plated or made of aluminium. The latter is not very likely due to costs (the main point of the G7e vs the G7a was the low production costs, so why spend a lot of expensive materials on the G7e, when it wasn't needed. Nickle-plating wasn't cheap either though: It's a little mystery I guess). The G7e's available to me, are all painted.
The reason for not greasing the hatches would surely be because of the need for regulary opening.

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
Thanks for the info, it was just what I was looking for.

I have another similar question. It regards the fin colour. In most of the photos the fins look like the same colour as the steel body. But I have seen a few photos in which the fins look white. Here are some scans (from German U-Boat of WWII (2) - Ground Power Special Issue June 97) -




I realise that most fins will be steel but do you think the fins in the photos above could be white? Or perhaps it is a trick of the light and it is actually nickel?

 
Note that on the top photo we can see one of the inspection panels and it isn't the same as the fins.

 
Cheers,

 
Dougie
 
 

[Natter]

Here are some scans (from German U-Boat of WWII (2) - Ground Power Special Issue June 97)

Nice photos. I don't think I have that book...

A few comments to the top photo: It's either staged for the photographer, or they have just finished regulating the depthmechanism (the airhose is attached to the "regelstutzen" and provides lowpressure air for the depthrudder servoengine), and are starting to prepare for gyroscope-regel (closing the hatch, attaching the indicator and scale to the siderudder). For this operation, the gyroscope airregulator should be fed hight-pressure air through the startervalve in the enginecompartment.
The torpedo is a G7e(TI) or G7e(TIII), but the aftsection with gyroscope/depthmechanism and ruddercontrol are identical to the G7a(TI).

I realise that most fins will be steel but do you think the fins in the photos above could be white? Or perhaps it is a trick of the light and it is actually nickel?

The G7e had no nickel-plating. This were only found on the early (prewar/early war production) G7a(TI), as a corrosion-protection. The nickel-plating were done on the aftsection, tailpiece and propellers. I assume it was done mainly to prevent corrosion from the powder/flames of the propulsioncharge used in the tubes of surfaceships.
It was stopped due to hight cost and sparse resources (for the same reason most torpedoparts of brass and bronze were exchanged with ordinary steel during the course of the war). The G7e were only used on submarines (and to some extend on S-Boote), so the effect of powder wasn't very relevant either way.

I have never seen/heard of german WW2 torpedoes on surface vessels or regular submarines being painted, besides the warhead/pistol and the exersicehead. I think what you see in the photo is just the light shining (a clean metal hull is very shiny - ref for example photos taken of unpainted torpedoes in museums).

Note that on the top photo we can see one of the inspection panels and it isn't the same as the fins.

I'm not sure what you mean? As you can see, the guy sitting on the floor is holding the hatch for the gyroscoperoom. The three batteryhatches (on top of the batterychamber) and the hatch for access to the batteryconnectors etc on starboard top side) would be similar (although it's not clear wether they were made of steel and/or coated with something).
I suspect you are refeferring to the panel in front of the airhose? This is the panel covering the depthmechanism (it's fastened with numerous screws). It is made of steel and has the exact same finish as the steel hull. However, you can se a darker colour ring, and that's painted on (green colour) to indicate that the torpedo has been fitted with the improved (TA-II) depthmechanism, which (along with failing magnetic pistols) was the reason for the catastrophic german "torpedokrise" in the first year of the war (torpedoes going too deep, pistols either not working or detonating prematurly). You can see it very well on the bottom photo as well.

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
Thanks for all the info. Agreed, it will just be the light shining on the metal fins rather than white paint.
 
There is a good photo in Axel Urbanke's Suppliers Of The Grey Wolves book showing a torpedo being transferred at sea. It shows the markings "PiG7H" clearly on the side. You may already have it but if not then you can send me a PM with your email and I can send you a scan.
 
This isn't about colours but might be of general interest to you. Here are some photos from the Stromness Museum in Orkney of a piece of one of the torpedoes fired by U 47 at HMS Royal Oak in Scapa Flow -


 



I remember the piece being heavier than it looks.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[Natter]

There is a good photo in Axel Urbanke's Suppliers Of The Grey Wolves book showing a torpedo being transferred at sea. It shows the markings "PiG7H" clearly on the side. You may already have it but if not then you can send me a PM with your email and I can send you a scan.

Hmm... I'm on constant watch for any books/publications etc regarding german torpedoes but you have now mentioned two titles new to me. The first one gives me a hard time: I can't find any reference to it. The other I can only find two available of - in the US (and at a terrible price).

Well, until I'm able to purchase the book, I'd be very happy to get the scan!

"Pi-G7H" is the first designation for the standard mechanical pistol, later renamed to "Pi-1" - it's the one you can see in my avatar btw.

This isn't about colours but might be of general interest to you. Here are some photos from the Stromness Museum in Orkney of a piece of one of the torpedoes fired by U 47 at HMS Royal Oak in Scapa Flow

Yes, I have seen those G7e remains before. As it happens, Prien was also effected by the faulty torpedoes during the "torpedokrise" when attacking Scapa Flow. I don't remember how many dud's he experienced, but he was not happy when reporting back to Dönitz...

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,

The Japanese one is rare and out of print. Good photos but no more of any torpedoes other than the ones I posted.

The Suppliers book by Urbanke is superb but it has a high price to reflect the content.

Yes, Prien was not too happy with torpedoes and this led to his famous dummy rifle comment. I have gone through the nine U 47 patrols and these are the number of torpedoes which did not hit a target. Some are obviously just misses due to crew error etc. but there were many caused by torpedoes -

Patrol 1 - Number of misses 1 - Number fired 2
Patrol 2 (scapa ) - Number of misses 3 - Number fired 7
Patrol 3 - Number of misses 11 - Number fired 14
Patrol 4 - Number of misses 1 - Number fired 2
Patrol 5 - Number of misses 10 - Number fired 10
Patrol 6 - Number of misses 9 - Number fired 14
Patrol 7 - Number of misses 7 - Number fired 14
Patrol 8 - Number of misses 4 - Number fired 12
Patrol 9 - Number of misses 10 - Number fired 12

This gives a total of 56 misses out of 87 fired (I don't have KTBs for patrol 10 as the boat was lost), meaning 64% of all fired did not reach the targets. Prien and Endrass would have been firing a lot of them and they were capable men.

The KTB entry of 12th Dec 39 reads "Fehlschuss, Fehlschuss!!" as the frustration is quite evident.

I am quite glad the KM had issues with the torpedoes. On the 5th patrol in Astafjord in Norway, U 47 attacked two cruisers and two 30,000 ton troop transports (with I presume thousands of men on board). The death toll would have been horrendous if the weapons had functioned correctly.

Have you seen torpedo shooting reports from KTBs? If not I can scan one for you to see.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[Natter]

The Japanese one is rare and out of print. Good photos but no more of any torpedoes other than the ones I posted.
The Suppliers book by Urbanke is superb but it has a high price to reflect the content.

I will keep looking...

Yes, Prien was not too happy with torpedoes and this led to his famous dummy rifle comment. I have gone through the nine U 47 patrols and these are the number of torpedoes which did not hit a target. Some are obviously just misses due to crew error etc. but there were many caused by torpedoes.
This gives a total of 56 misses out of 87 fired (I don't have KTBs for patrol 10 as the boat was lost), meaning 64% of all fired did not reach the targets. Prien and Endrass would have been firing a lot of them and they were capable men.

I can recommend David Wright's thesis from 2004, "Wolves Without Teeth: The German Torpedo Crisis in World War Two" (free for downloaed in pdf format here: http://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/history_etd/ ).
I haven't read it in a few years, but it goes into quite a few technical details, and even mentions the markings on the torpedoes with improved engines, depthmechansims etc (as this being a modellers forum, and the topic is german torpedo colours :-) ).

I am quite glad the KM had issues with the torpedoes. On the 5th patrol in Astafjord in Norway, U 47 attacked two cruisers and two 30,000 ton troop transports (with I presume thousands of men on board). The death toll would have been horrendous if the weapons had functioned correctly.
Have you seen torpedo shooting reports from KTBs? If not I can scan one for you to see.

Yes, I think the allied was very fortunate by the german torpedo crisis...

I know both Jerry Mason and Ken Dunn (+ Maciek - "SnakeDoc") from our common topic of interest, and I have quite a few copies of german schussmeldungen from Jerry (he and Ken has been doing a lot of research and analysing of hundreds of german torpedofirings). Jerry also done a lot of analyzing of the german Uboat-KTB's: http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBList.htm

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
That is an excellent thesis, thanks very much for bringing it to our attention. I always thought the crisis would be a good subject for a research paper so it looks like it has not been covered.
To go back to colours, I have seen a few photos of torpedoes on a barge in Lorient around 1940. One of the photos is on page 5 of this thread (posted by SG on 13 July 2013). Looks like they have practice warheads? Have you any idea what colour the lines are on the warhead - white or yellow maybe?

The reason I am interested is because I am working on a 1/35th diorama set in Lorient in December 1940. This will include 6 torpedoes aboard two train gondolas (one of them will be being moved by crane from a gondola). I would like to have 3 real warheads and 3 practice warheads. The issue I have is that I wondered if Lorient in late 1940 would only have live warheads? I am not sure if Lorient would have any practice torpedoes as all the U-boats at this time were rushed back to the Atlantic as soon as possible, leaving no time for practice sessions. I would think all the practice firing would be done back in Germany and the Baltic. Does this sound correct or do you think practice firing wouild have taken place in Lorient?

The photo SG posted does suggest that torpedoes with practice warheads were present at Lorient in 1940 so that is why I am confused.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[Natter]

To go back to colours, I have seen a few photos of torpedoes on a barge in Lorient around 1940. One of the photos is on page 5 of this thread (posted by SG on 13 July 2013). Looks like they have practice warheads? Have you any idea what colour the lines are on the warhead - white or yellow maybe?

I believe the conclusion was those being most likely captured french torpedoes. Unfortunately, I have no idea about colours of french torpedomaterial whatsoever (french torpedoes are generally not very well documented).

German exersiceheads (both Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe) are painted with red and white "horisontal" lines. I have seen examples of larger surfacevessels painting their name onto the heads - presumably for id-purposes, as I reckon they had their own heads (you would not see it on U-boats and S-Boats). See the photos I have provided in the link below.

The reason I am interested is because I am working on a 1/35th diorama set in Lorient in December 1940. This will include 6 torpedoes aboard two train gondolas (one of them will be being moved by crane from a gondola). I would like to have 3 real warheads and 3 practice warheads. The issue I have is that I wondered if Lorient in late 1940 would only have live warheads?

It's a nice scene, but I'm not sure about the realism:
Depending on the distance and means of transport, the torpedoes would have been transported with warheads mounted, or with the heads in separate, special steelcontainers (I think I have posted some photos earlier). Pistols would always be transported separately in dedicated transportcontainers (photos also posted before). I don't think those open railway-wagons with stacked torpedoes w/warheads look realistic: Even though I can't refer to documents, I am sure that would only have been done for shorter distances.
Exersiceheads however, would most likely never have been mounted on a torpedo for transport besides between the workshop and the harbour, as they were quite delicate. I'm sure there would have been special crates for transport of exersiceheads over any longer distance.
The warhead and pistol would always follow the torpedo, while exersiceheads would be kept at the arsenal/-kommando/vessel, so they would not be transported like the torpedoes anyway.

I am not sure if Lorient would have any practice torpedoes as all the U-boats at this time were rushed back to the Atlantic as soon as possible, leaving no time for practice sessions. I would think all the practice firing would be done back in Germany and the Baltic. Does this sound correct or do you think practice firing wouild have taken place in Lorient?

There are several reasons for doing exersice-shots:
 * Training of personell (both new and operational crews, as well as technical/logistics personell).
 * Technical verification and ranging (especially with new torpedoes or torpedoes having been repaired etc).

Initial torpedoranging would have been done at the TVA-ranges, and initial training of personell would have been done at the different schools and their training areas. However, exersicetorpedoes would for sure have been used in all areas (for example: Numerous testshots have been documented from Torpedokommando Bakervågen in Bergen, Norway - often by submarines in surfaceposition, for testing of both torpedoes and onboard equipment like tubes, compressors, sights etc). At sea, large surfacevessels would have been able to do training on their own, without the need of dedicated vessels for "fishing" and maintaining the torpedo afterwards.

So, I definately think exerciseheads would have been present at any torpedoarsenal/-kommando/-werkstatt.



Here is a zip-file with some photos of german exersiceheads: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38692668/TP-Heads.zip

Note that Type 1210 and 1215 were the common heads for G7a(TI), G7e(TII) and G7e(TIII) torpedoes. The 1210 was an early type with only one blowingmechanism (often known to fail), replaced by the improved dual-mechanism type 1215.

[dougie47]

Hi Natter,
 
Thanks for all the information, it is just what I was looking for. I think I will keep away from those torpedoes with the lines at Lorient.
 
Thanks also for the zip file - very useful and I am much obliged to you.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie
 
 

[Natter]

I got some photos from a friend in Poland today, showing german G7a(TI) and G7es(TV) torpedoes at the Polish Navy Musuem in Gdynya. Illustrates how incredible the nickle-plating works to protect against corrosion...

[SG]

Amazing. thanks for sharing!

[Rokket]

wow, great stuff!  Would love to see this museum.

[Natter]

To paint something the right colour, after a bit of research, costs no more than the incorrect colour, given that the whole of the U 534 is painted approximately Dunkelgrau 51,(wrong) it is a subject that annoys me, along with the sheet metal repair to the upper bow area and the B&Q deck(ing) there has been very little attempt to repair/refurbish the U 534 to it's original look by MerseyTravel.

Here is a danish site with some photos of the U-534 after it was raised: https://plus.google.com/photos/118382044826717870833/albums/6110537628293429521?banner=pwa&authkey=COiRosOGiP7biwE