German Torpedo Color?

[NZSnowman]

I'm not sure about the asphalt covering the "salamander" wiring - where did you find this info? On some photos I have, it seems like a metal cover fastened with screws. Wartime-photos (I think I have posted one earlier) shows both dark/light/and no colour for this.

I found some information about it in the “Navy Department Chief of Naval Opertions Washington. Final Report - G/Serial 29. Report on the Interrogation of Survivors from U-172 Sunk 13 December 1943” Page 23. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm
 
The tail piece has a winding of wire covered with asphalt (at C).  This is visible, but on newer types is believed to have been put inside.  The only explanation given the prisoner of the purpose of this was that “if the target produces a positive field, the torpedo will take a negative field, and vice versa, through the action of this winding”.

The first drawing I did of the cover was metal and fastened with pop rivets. Then I noticed in some of the photo’s I have of the TV at Chicago the cover is very dark, so I  presume the Germans wrapped the copper wire around the outside and then used the asphalt to smooth it off. Like the cross-section below.



Also from the photo’s I have it clearly show where no screws or pop rivets to fix the metal section of the cover. So I presume the Germans either spot wielded or wielded it straight on to the body, so I remove the pop rivets from my drawing.

Although I'm not sure if this is correct, the TV on display at the U-505 exibition has the expandable vertical rudders as are fitted to the LUT-equipped G7e's. This is also the case with the TXI in Birkenhead (although I suspect they might have swapped the aft-section with a standard one there9.

It also talks about bigger rudders in the report above on page 23/24.

The rudder of T-5 is one and a half times the size of the rudder of an ordinary electric torpedo. Estimated dimensions: 19 cm. long, 3 cm. wide, 4 mm. thick.  The rudder is painted red.

The painted "TV" in a ring on the batterychamber is also something I have only seen on the U-505 torpedo (on the port side, not starborad). This is not present on wartime photos, but the photos I have only shows the starborad side, so there might have been a marking like this on the port side - it does resembles the way they marked the warhead).

I will remove this marking.

I commented on the red rings indicating the lifting point for an ampty torpedo, but it was one of the posts losts when they restored the forum from an old backup: I don't have the exact measurements, but it should be 18-20cm between the two stripes.

Thanks, I remember where something about these markings I had to fix.

Your aft-section lacks a few details, like the hatch and GA-screws etc.

Yes, I know. I am having trouble finding good photos or drawings to help me put things in the correct locations in this area. I have let this area mostly clear at the moment until I get the information I need.

[Natter]

I found some information about it in the “Navy Department Chief of Naval Opertions Washington. Final Report - G/Serial 29. Report on the Interrogation of Survivors from U-172 Sunk 13 December 1943” Page 23. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm

Ok - I know this info. As it has a lot of errors and irregularities, I just haven't paid much attention to it though: It's from 1943, when the acoustic torpedoes were new and the germans were of course very keen on keeping the info secret. As it also appears from the interviews, the (low rank) mechanics aboard only got as much info they needed. You should also consider that the POW might have tried to give false or misleading information in the interviews.

The first drawing I did of the cover was metal and fastened with pop rivets. Then I noticed in some of the photo’s I have of the TV at Chicago the cover is very dark, so I  presume the Germans wrapped the copper wire around the outside and then used the asphalt to smooth it off. Like the cross-section below.

Well, compared with war-time photos there might be lacking an external cover on the torpedo in the U-505 exibition (see attachement)? I see from a close up, that the Chicago-torpedo for sure has a "soft" cover showing the wireturns underneath, but as the torpedo has been completely dismantled and refurbished, this might very well be the solution they chose at the museum (and we see from the colours they chose that they didn't get it all correct - I remember some guy from the museum was researching several issues regarding the restoration on some internetforums a few years back, and they didn't get any answers there).

Also from the photo’s I have it clearly show where no screws or pop rivets to fix the metal section of the cover. So I presume the Germans either spot wielded or wielded it straight on to the body, so I remove the pop rivets from my drawing.

Possible. I don't know. I see remains from the "salamander" on the TXI torpedo in a photo from the recovery-operation. It is almost completely corroded, so that might be the explanation for the missing part on the U-534 torpedo in UK.

It also talks about bigger rudders in the report above on page 23/24.
The rudder of T-5 is one and a half times the size of the rudder of an ordinary electric torpedo. Estimated dimensions: 19 cm. long, 3 cm. wide, 4 mm. thick.  The rudder is painted red.

Yes, I noticed that. I don't see any difference in the sice of rudders compared to TII / TIII though, so my guess this is just a reference to the "ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen"?

I will remove this marking.

Again: I'm not sure about this - maybe the guys in Chicago has some info we don't have (I would think that the ONI / US Navy made thoroughly  documentation (including photographs - although probably only b/w) when investigating the captured torpedoes).

[NZSnowman]

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

I have never seen any description of it, but it's very similar (including the two holes for screws) with a feature they had in the first version of the whitehead-tail of the G7a. In this opening a small nozzle waf fitted, supposedly catching seawater for cooling the propeller-crossdrive. It's not unlikely this also was a feature of the woolwich-tail on the early G7e as well.
In this case it would obviously be an old type fin mounted on a new torpedo, lacking the piping going to the crossdrive.

I have attached a couple of photos showing this feature on a G7a:

Natter, I taking at look at the "key" shape cut-out that was use for the seawater cooling found in the photo above of the G7e. I noticed that on the Chicago TV were is no cut-out.

Could is mean that G7e with the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T2 & G7e without the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T3?

[Natter]

Natter, I taking at look at the "key" shape cut-out that was use for the seawater cooling found in the photo above of the G7e. I noticed that on the Chicago TV were is no cut-out.
Could is mean that G7e with the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T2 & G7e without the 'seawater cooling' are G7e/T3?

Well, your guess is as good as mine to be honest :-)
Remember there are several years in development between the earliest G7e variant and the TV, but I have no idea on details like that (or documents that might give more info) :-|
I'm sick these days as well, so I don't feel like digging into books/documents anyway, but if I find something I'll post it here.

[NZSnowman]

I found some information about it in the “Navy Department Chief of Naval Opertions Washington. Final Report - G/Serial 29. Report on the Interrogation of Survivors from U-172 Sunk 13 December 1943” Page 23. http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm

Ok - I know this info. As it has a lot of errors and irregularities, I just haven't paid much attention to it though: It's from 1943, when the acoustic torpedoes were new and the germans were of course very keen on keeping the info secret. As it also appears from the interviews, the (low rank) mechanics aboard only got as much info they needed. You should also consider that the POW might have tried to give false or misleading information in the interviews.

The first drawing I did of the cover was metal and fastened with pop rivets. Then I noticed in some of the photo’s I have of the TV at Chicago the cover is very dark, so I  presume the Germans wrapped the copper wire around the outside and then used the asphalt to smooth it off. Like the cross-section below.

Well, compared with war-time photos there might be lacking an external cover on the torpedo in the U-505 exibition (see attachement)? I see from a close up, that the Chicago-torpedo for sure has a "soft" cover showing the wireturns underneath, but as the torpedo has been completely dismantled and refurbished, this might very well be the solution they chose at the museum (and we see from the colours they chose that they didn't get it all correct - I remember some guy from the museum was researching several issues regarding the restoration on some internetforums a few years back, and they didn't get any answers there).

Also from the photo’s I have it clearly show where no screws or pop rivets to fix the metal section of the cover. So I presume the Germans either spot wielded or wielded it straight on to the body, so I remove the pop rivets from my drawing.

Possible. I don't know. I see remains from the "salamander" on the TXI torpedo in a photo from the recovery-operation. It is almost completely corroded, so that might be the explanation for the missing part on the U-534 torpedo in UK.

It also talks about bigger rudders in the report above on page 23/24.
The rudder of T-5 is one and a half times the size of the rudder of an ordinary electric torpedo. Estimated dimensions: 19 cm. long, 3 cm. wide, 4 mm. thick.  The rudder is painted red.

Yes, I noticed that. I don't see any difference in the sice of rudders compared to TII / TIII though, so my guess this is just a reference to the "ausschiebbaren vertikalflossen"?

I will remove this marking.

Again: I'm not sure about this - maybe the guys in Chicago has some info we don't have (I would think that the ONI / US Navy made thoroughly  documentation (including photographs - although probably only b/w) when investigating the captured torpedoes).

Natter, I found those:

External winding on tail piece:  This is about 15 cm. behind the gyro; when the torpedo is being loaded into the tube, the wooden protecting frame is removed, exposing another sort of protection around the winding.  This is bronze-colored, about 28 to 30 cm. wide, and extending about 1.5 cm. above the body of the torpedo.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm Pages 31-32.
Winding:    The winding on the tail piece is said to be between 30 and 33 cm. behind the gyro, to extend about 30 cm., and to be about 1 cm. thick.  The winding has the appearance of a white metal and can be pressed in with one's thumbs.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-801INT.htm Page 29
U. Winding on Tailpiece:

Prisoners called this winding a “Sendespule” (transmitting coil) which creates a magnetic field between itself and the pistol.  The winding has a protective rubber covering.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371INT.htm Pages 16-17.

[Natter]

Natter, I found those:

External winding on tail piece:  This is about 15 cm. behind the gyro; when the torpedo is being loaded into the tube, the wooden protecting frame is removed, exposing another sort of protection around the winding.  This is bronze-colored, about 28 to 30 cm. wide, and extending about 1.5 cm. above the body of the torpedo.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm Pages 31-32.
Winding:    The winding on the tail piece is said to be between 30 and 33 cm. behind the gyro, to extend about 30 cm., and to be about 1 cm. thick.  The winding has the appearance of a white metal and can be pressed in with one's thumbs.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-801INT.htm Page 29
U. Winding on Tailpiece:

Prisoners called this winding a “Sendespule” (transmitting coil) which creates a magnetic field between itself and the pistol.  The winding has a protective rubber covering.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371INT.htm Pages 16-17.

Thanks, I don't think I saw those before - it backs up the fact that the coil was covered with some sort of "soft" protection (althoug the statements differ in colour and context?). The photo I posted above probably shows the wooden protection.

Regarding the "sendepule": It created the field which the torpedo used to detect it's passing underneath the steelhull of the target (see attached drawing). I also included an illustration of the "spatz" test-box mentioned by one of the POW's.

[NZSnowman]

Here my take on the wooden cover, made with wooden Veneer, with 1 or 2 small latches and two small hinges on the opposite side of the cover

[GlennCauley]

Pics taken of a torpedo on display at the Canadian War Museum.
May help in the details, but not the colour.

Of note:  there are serration ridges ahead of each of the 4 fins.

[GlennCauley]

a few more pics

[GlennCauley]

and last 2 pics...

[Natter]

Pics taken of a torpedo on display at the Canadian War Museum.

This is a G7e(TII) or G7e(TIII). I see that it has been equipped with propeller-stoppers recently? I have actually never seen an origional stopper for the G7e propellers, but I don't think these look original (unles it's painted steel, they look more like a US type for a post-war torpedo), but I would really like to have that verified...

May help in the details, but not the colour.

Yes, colour is obviously wrong (and for some reason, they have chosen to display the torpedo upside down...).

Of note:  there are serration ridges ahead of each of the 4 fins.

Those ridges are netcutters monted on the aftsection. There are also similar netcutters mounted on the warhead (the torpedo on display has an exersicehead though - seems like a type 1215, but more detailed photos of the top - ie "underside" - would help).

[NZSnowman]

Just a very small update today, fixed three small errors on the fins that I found

[Natter]

Nice job - it looks similar to the drawings I put up recently, but when comparing to the (blurred) photo on page 2, there are something that don't match up. I think the photo is probably more reliable, but there might have been different versions for all I know...

[NZSnowman]

Nice job - it looks similar to the drawings I put up recently, but when comparing to the (blurred) photo on page 2, there are something that don't match up. I think the photo is probably more reliable, but there might have been different versions for all I know...

Good spotting! You are totally correct. I have made the glide pin too forward

It shows the correct position on the Chicago torpedo, farther back like the war-time photo.
 
I will fix right-a-way!
 
Simon

[Natter]

Of note:  there are serration ridges ahead of each of the 4 fins.

Those ridges are netcutters monted on the aftsection. There are also similar netcutters mounted on the warhead (the torpedo on display has an exersicehead though - seems like a type 1215, but more detailed photos of the top - ie "underside" - would help).

A couple of photos showing the netcutters on the head: