German Torpedo Color?

[Natter]

There were two main variants:
    A flat-nosed version which contained two sets of magnetostriction hydrophones.
    A round-nosed version which contained two magnetostriction hydrophones inside a funnel-shaped baffle.

Well, that doesn't describe anything but the difference in physical appearance...   The 2 (or in fact 3 - I believe there were 2 variants of the vierfach storch), had different characteristics in regards to detection (sensitivity, range and directional accuracy). The vierfach being more accurate and less sensitive for destrortion by extarnal noise etc.

I do have some documents eplaining the function and drawings, but unfortunately, I'm not able to locate the proper extarnal harddrive now (I have more than 30 ;-| ). I think Maciej got copies of these a while back though, so perhaps he will post them if I don't come up with anything soon.

In case it has some interest - here are some diagrams showing the controlsystems for the acoustic torpedoes (scans from R

[Natter]

What is the "key" shape cut-out in the fin used for?

I have never seen any description of it, but it's very similar (including the two holes for screws) with a feature they had in the first version of the whitehead-tail of the G7a. In this opening a small nozzle waf fitted, supposedly catching seawater for cooling the propeller-crossdrive. It's not unlikely this also was a feature of the woolwich-tail on the early G7e as well.
In this case it would obviously be an old type fin mounted on a new torpedo, lacking the piping going to the crossdrive.

I have attached a couple of photos showing this feature on a G7a:

[Natter]

Were all the torpedo tubes made in the same factor, and then shipped to the different shipyards?

For surface-tubes there were at least 4 different firms making the same types (with minor differences). Wether this was the case for the submarine-tubes I have no idea, but I would think at least 2 concerning the logistics (the submarinetubes were of course more complex systems than the surface tubes, so there might have been less firms involved in regards to the experience/technology required).

[Natter]

Hi Natter

How do these look?

Nice. It's hard to be specific with the small drawings, but I do notice a couple of things:
The G7a had a different tail for the first variants (I don't know for how long it was used, but certainly after the outbreak of the war). You can see it in the "zeichnungen" document wich is published on the Uboat Archive website). Also (as mentioned before), there are very many possible combinations of "old"/"new" parts etc + minor variations between the different factories producing the torpedoes, so there just won't be a 100% correct answer.

Your G7e models do for sure lack many details on the aft-sections..? In general, the aft-section (not including the tail) are identical for the G7a and G7e.

[Natter]

By the way, three more pics, same source.
The torpedo workshop as it was and as it is today

Nice photos!  Still puzzled by the type of torpedoes - I will need to investigate french models... :-)

[SG]

Yepp, it would be nice to know if those are german or french torpedoes! Far from being an expert myself and speaking of german torpedoes in France, I found another interesting picture of a barge moored alongside Lorient dock, loaded w torpedoes. The caption states these are "G7-type torpedoes for submarine use". Again, another unusual (and appealing to the eye) warhead finish.   
 

[Natter]

Yepp, it would be nice to know if those are german or french torpedoes!

I found one candidate of a french torpedo that might resemble the ones in the storage-photos, but I believe it was a model introduced after the war. I have sent the photos to a collegue of mine with far better general knowledge on torpedoes than me. Maybe he will have an idea (I don't expect an answer for at least a few weeks though).

Far from being an expert myself and speaking of german torpedoes in France, I found another interesting picture of a barge moored alongside Lorient dock, loaded w torpedoes. The caption states these are "G7-type torpedoes for submarine use". Again, another unusual (and appealing to the eye) warhead finish.

I have seen a photo of a german torpedo with the similar finish of the head  being loaded into a U-boat (I couldn't see if it was a warhead or exersice-head - that's in fact hard to tell on this photo as well, although my best guess is exercise). I have no idea if this was some sort of standard pattern introduced later in the war, if it was a "local" variant in a certain torpedoarsenal or even a pattern used for a special purpose. It's not the standard pattern used from before the war for sure. In regards to these being G7a: It's impossible to verify that from the low quality of the photo. As a general rule, I would not rely on photo-captions in books or elsewhere...

[SG]

In regards to these being G7a: It's impossible to verify that from the low quality of the photo. As a general rule, I would not rely on photo-captions in books or elsewhere...

Natter I agree with you 100%. Standing by for further developments.
Cheers!

[Natter]

Yepp, it would be nice to know if those are german or french torpedoes!

I found one candidate of a french torpedo that might resemble the ones in the storage-photos, but I believe it was a model introduced after the war. I have sent the photos to a collegue of mine with far better general knowledge on torpedoes than me. Maybe he will have an idea (I don't expect an answer for at least a few weeks though).

Far from being an expert myself and speaking of german torpedoes in France, I found another interesting picture of a barge moored alongside Lorient dock, loaded w torpedoes. The caption states these are "G7-type torpedoes for submarine use". Again, another unusual (and appealing to the eye) warhead finish.

I have seen a photo of a german torpedo with the similar finish of the head  being loaded into a U-boat (I couldn't see if it was a warhead or exersice-head - that's in fact hard to tell on this photo as well, although my best guess is exercise). I have no idea if this was some sort of standard pattern introduced later in the war, if it was a "local" variant in a certain torpedoarsenal or even a pattern used for a special purpose. It's not the standard pattern used from before the war for sure. In regards to these being G7a: It's impossible to verify that from the low quality of the photo. As a general rule, I would not rely on photo-captions in books or elsewhere...

I got a reply from my collegue, who have significantly more knowledge on torpedoedes than me (especially everything non-german). According to him, these could be french torpedoes, but as the french have been very secretive about their weapons, there isn't much photos and information available to veryfy this 100%.

Here are some facts though:
The torpedes in question are for sure not german-manucatured
The Brest-facility was built by the french in 1939 (originally as a storage for aircraft-engines), and was turned into a torpedo-facility by the germans in june 1941 (used for production and maintenance - servicing the part of the atlantic fleet stationed in France). The Brest-facility was the largest german torpedoarsenal, and was evacuated and taken over by the french on august 25, 1944. The french rebuilt the facility and continued using it for torpedostorage/-maintenance from september 1944.
The germans captured and used enormous amounts of foreign weapons, including torpedoes. For example, the french 55cm types 24M and 23DT was used on captured frech surfacevessels.
British torpedoes might also have been used by the germans (the dutch used these, and germany captured some dutch vessels, and reused dutch torpedotubes in at least 3 shore torpedobatteries in Norway/France).

Conclusion? Impossible at this stage to be 100% certain, but my collegue and I thinks the 24M and 23DT are the most likely candidates, although there are no known photos/drawings of these torpedoes to compare with.
Another fact that might be helpful, is knowing when the photos are taken (before/during/after the german period in Brest?). Are the uniforms verified german (germans might have been used also after august 1944)?


If anyone can provide more information (including photos/drawings) on french torpedoes, I'd be very happy!

[SG]

Natter,
some more infos: the images come from Karl Hoffmann Collection; the pictures captions state that the men pictured belonged to torpedo-kommando Brest (and arrived in Brest in June 1940, they were originally from KMW Whilemshaven) which took over the french storage tunnel. The tunnel was an ancient french torpedo storage facility, which was subsequently captured by the kriegsmarine and re-used.
No infos about the date of the shots. The mens' uniforms look undoubtedly german.
This supports what you said about the torpedoes: most probably pre/early-war french ones re-employed by the germans.
 
Well done, Natter! Congrats for the precision, accuracy and the completeness of your research! am speechless
Will keep up standing by for further information.
 
PS The diamond warheads' pattern (be german or french) is undoubtedly eye-catching and cool anyways! 
   

[Natter]

some more infos: the images come from Karl Hoffmann Collection; the pictures captions state that the men pictured belonged to torpedo-kommando Brest (and arrived in Brest in Juin 1940, they were originally from KMW Whilemshaven) which took over the french storage tunnel.

Yes, "1941" was an unfortunate typo on my end...
Thanks for the image-source. It might be possible to find more photos from this series, even in larger format/better resolution (I'll look into this). Btw: I have now bought all the books referred to earlier (with these photos). Sadly, I don't understand french :-|

The tunnel was an ancient french torpedo storage facility, which was subsequently captured from the kriegsmarine and re-used.
No infos about the date of the shots. The mens' uniforms look undoubtedly german.

Yes, I think so (although I'm really no expert on uniforms).

This supports what you said about the torpedoes: most probably pre/early-war french ones re-employed by the germans.

Yes. If it was possible to measure the diametre of the torpedoes from the photos it would help, but the difference of 55 vs 53,34 cm is hard to see of course.

PS The diamond warheads' pattern (be german or french) is undoubtedly eye-catching and cool anyways!

From what I can see of the photos, I'm 99% certain these are exercise-heads (which of course is the only logical reason for doping this). An annoying thing though: In one photo you can clearly see a german transportcontainer for G7 warheads...

[Natter]

The forum-crash seems to have lost many posts in this topic over the last few weeks, but I guess it's nothing to be done.
Anyway: I found a couple of drawings related the G7e (TIII) LUT "flossen" that might be of interest:

[Natter]

A couple of drawings on the G7es (TV):

[NZSnowman]

Hi Natter
 
I decided to take so time off studying today, and do some drawing


Fig. 1. Added the asphalt wire covered to the tail section of the TV. Measurements are base on the plan you provided above.
 

Fig. 2. Made a few small changes to the TV body.


Fig. 3. TV (Large format).

[Natter]

Although I'm not sure if this is correct, the TV on display at the U-505 exibition has the expandable vertical rudders as are fitted to the LUT-equipped G7e's. This is also the case with the TXI in Birkenhead (although I suspect they might have swapped the aft-section with a standard one there9. The painted "TV" in a ring on the batterychamber is also something I have only seen on the U-505 torpedo (on the port side, not starborad). This is not present on wartime photos, but the photos I have only shows the starborad side, so there might have been a marking like this on the port side - it does resembles the way they marked the warhead).

I'm not sure about the asphalt covering the "salamander" wiring - where did you find this info? On some photos I have, it seems like a metal cover fastened with screws. Wartime-photos (I think I have posted one earlier) shows both dark/light/and no colour for this.

I commented on the red rings indicating the lifting point for an ampty torpedo, but it was one of the posts losts when they restored the forum from an old backup: I don't have the exact measurements, but it should be 18-20cm between the two stripes.

Your aft-section lacks a few details, like the hatch and GA-screws etc.

Besides the measurements, you should not rely on details from the sketch I attached to my previous post: It's just a rough sketch made by the RNoN during their post-war survey of the TV torpedo (taken from the technical evaluation report).