AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: NZSnowman on 09 Apr , 2014, 15:17
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Here is my results of my Balcongerät research.
I have added a few basic measurements for future modellers of the Balcongerät. If anyone require more detail measurements for there Balcongerät model, leave me a message and I will get back to you.
If you click the picture below they will extent to there full size.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2922/13745984925_0761e07548_o.jpg)
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(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/13746380894_19b9d18286_o.jpg)
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(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3812/13745983805_eedd85b9f5_o.jpg)
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(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3817/13745973405_3ddb1d9e9e_o.jpg)
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(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2939/13746371354_cfd7b64332_o.jpg)
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(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/13746006333_0b08368e4f_o.jpg)
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/13746008683_b8a9d2b0e8_o.jpg)
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(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3687/13746377344_cd39f39d96_o.jpg)
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7017/13746378564_ef446c5f15_o.jpg)
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Hi Snowman,
thanks for this great drawings. Just a question: is the Balkongeraet of the Uboat XXIII the same type as your shown above drawings?
Regards falo
P.S.: Found a picture of a Type XXIII with Alberich coating on my harddrive. Will post it tomorow. Maybe the photo is helpful for the upcoming coating of U1308. Will post it in your fantastic Schematic-drawings thread.
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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this. Keep learning a few more things.
Later Tim
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Hi Snowman,
thanks for this great drawings. Just a question: is the Balkongeraet of the Uboat XXIII the same type as your shown above drawings?
Regards falo
P.S.: Found a picture of a Type XXIII with Alberich coating on my harddrive. Will post it tomorow. Maybe the photo is helpful for the upcoming coating of U1308. Will post it in your fantastic Schematic-drawings thread.
The Balkongeraet on the Uboat XXIII was very similar.
Keen to see a picture of a Type XXIII with Alberich, I never see a picture of a Type XXIII with Alberich :)
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Hi Snowman,
thanks for the fast reply, I posted the mentioned picture in your "schematic drawings" thread.
Regards
Falo
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That's a lot of excellent detailed work!
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Hi Snowman,
thanks again for the "Balkongeraet" (GHG) drawings.
I used your sketches for a small scratchbuilt of the GHG (Scale 1/72). Please look at the first photo below (#0021), its a a shot from the status before sanding with fine grid. Thanks to your drawings it was very easy to construct it to this point as shown on the pix. IMO - and as mentioned before in many posts of this forum - your skills are outstanding.
But to my request: Next step are now the arrangement of the dots ("Kristallempfaenger"). Please look at the second attached pix. IMO the layout of the dots is shifted. If you see the red arrows scribbled on the original photo and on your sketch, you can recognize what I'am supposing. What do you think about it?
Thanks for your support and regards
falo
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I am not a 100% sure about what you are talking about but are you asking about the rivets locates?
If so, if you looking at the photo of U-1105 Balcongerät you see there a thick beading around the Balcongerät, I am not sure what it is.
But that is important thing is I only the found the thick beading on the U-1105 Balcongerät, all the other Balcongerät were smooth like my drawing. So the rivets run along the plate edge.
Hope this helps.
Simon
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Hi Simon,
hope I don't mixed up things up here.
No, I'am not talking about rivets or beadings. I'am only comparing the photo of the Balcongeraet (taken during the Royal Navy inspected the boat after the german surrender at a british dockyard) and your technical drawing of the GHG. Please take a look of the now better drawn scribble, I hope this explains my concern.
Regards
Falo
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Hi Simon,
hope I don't mixed up things up here.
No, I'am not talking about rivets or beadings. I'am only comparing the photo of the Balcongeraet (taken during the Royal Navy inspected the boat after the german surrender at a british dockyard) and your technical drawing of the GHG. Please take a look of the now better drawn scribble, I hope this explains my concern.
Regards
Falo
Hi Falo
Just got back from two weeks holiday.
Yes you are correct it my mistake! This is the only known photo/drawing of the placements of the GHG on the Type VIIC’s Balcongerät, so we need to match it.
I will update my drawing.
Thanks, Simon.
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Hi Snowman,
hope you enjoyed your holidays.
Thanks for the information. As I described before, I noticed the shifted "Kristallempfaenger" during scratch building the GHG by pure chance. Assembled the Balkongeraet upside down and by turning the result around I realized the displaced dots.
Thanks again for the GHG drawings and regards
falo
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Hi!
Since i am planning to build someday a viic/41 with "balcongerät" i wonder how many and witch boats had one? From what i´ve heard there were only few of them and some with tarnkappen (alberich). Also a raising schnorchel would be nice... Otherwise i just have to build a numberless/imaginary boat...
Anakin
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Alberich
U11 II
U67 IXC
U480 VIIC
U485 VIIC
U486 VIIC
U1105 VIIC41
U1106 VIIC41
U1107 VIIC41
U1304 VIIC41
U1306 VIIC41
U1308 VIIC41
U4704 XXIII
U4708 XXIII
U4709 XXIII
Balkongerät
U234 X
U534 IXC40
U778 VIIC
U805 IXC40
U873 IXD2
U889 IXC40
U997 VIIC41
U1021 VIIC41
U1105 VIIC41
U1308 VIIC41
U4709 XXIII
It look like the only Type VIIC/41 with both was U-1308 :)
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Thanks Simon. I knew you would know :D
Seems like i have 3 viic/41 to choose without alberich... Perhaps easier to paint and weather. :)
Anakin
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Thanks Simon. I knew you would know :D
Seems like i have 3 viic/41 to choose without alberich... Perhaps easier to paint and weather. :)
Anakin
A boat without alberich would be much easier to model as for a boat with alberich you would need to change all the free drain vents and remove all marking and rivet etc... from the castings and pressure hull. As they should look very smooth because to the alberich coating.
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Hello Simon,
Hope your studies are coming along well.
I have a few boats to add to your list.
Alberich
Alberich on U 470 (possibly a test boat?) in March 1943 (Source: Die Sonaranlagen der deutschen Unterseeboote by Eberhard Roessler).
Balcongeraet
U 1228 Source - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-1228PreliminaryReport.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-1228PreliminaryReport.htm)
U 864 Source - Code Name Caesar: The Secret Hunt for U-Boat 864 during World War II by Jerome Preisler and Kenneth Sewell
Die Sonaranlagen der deutschen Unterseeboote by Eberhard Roessler also says the following boats were fitted with the balcongeraet -
U 194 - test boat, present on 7th January 1943
U 719 - test boat, tested in Aug / Sep 43
U 539 - April 44
U 719 - summer 44
U 180, U 195, U 877, U 878, U 879, U 880, U 881, U 889 - unknown date
U 779, U 1002, U 1019, U 1105, U 1306, U 1307, U 1308 - all commissioned with Balcon
U 682 and U 1172 - Sep/Oct 44
It says it was first fitted to operational IXs in November 1943.
Also, there is a photo of the Type XVIIB U 1407 with the Balcongeraet.
I guess that U 1306 and U 1308 had both (did U 1307 perhaps have both as well?).
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi all,
Balkongerät
U 505, just to complete the list
Regards
Jon
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Hello Simon,
Hope your studies are coming along well.
I have a few boats to add to your list.
Alberich
Alberich on U 470 (possibly a test boat?) in March 1943 (Source: Die Sonaranlagen der deutschen Unterseeboote by Eberhard Roessler).
Balcongeraet
U 1228 Source - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-1228PreliminaryReport.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-1228PreliminaryReport.htm)
U 864 Source - Code Name Caesar: The Secret Hunt for U-Boat 864 during World War II by Jerome Preisler and Kenneth Sewell
Die Sonaranlagen der deutschen Unterseeboote by Eberhard Roessler also says the following boats were fitted with the balcongeraet -
U 194 - test boat, present on 7th January 1943
U 719 - test boat, tested in Aug / Sep 43
U 539 - April 44
U 719 - summer 44
U 180, U 195, U 877, U 878, U 879, U 880, U 881, U 889 - unknown date
U 779, U 1002, U 1019, U 1105, U 1306, U 1307, U 1308 - all commissioned with Balcon
U 682 and U 1172 - Sep/Oct 44
It says it was first fitted to operational IXs in November 1943.
Also, there is a photo of the Type XVIIB U 1407 with the Balcongeraet.
I guess that U 1306 and U 1308 had both (did U 1307 perhaps have both as well?).
Cheers,
Dougie
Thanks, Dougie!
I have updated my database. U-1306 and U-1308 had both, it almost certain that includes U-1307 also.
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Hi all,
Balkongerät
U 505, just to complete the list
Regards
Jon
Thanks :)
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Hi Dougie
I just found a photo on German EBay of U-1305, and there strong evidence that U-1305 of batch U-1301 - U-1308 was never fixed with Alberich like U-1306, U-1307 and U-1308.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/U-1305-U-Boot-Bordgeschutz-1944-Flensburg-Norwegen-U-Boat-VIIC-41-Christiansen-/390954808145?pt=Fotografien_Fotokunst&hash=item5b06b8f351 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/U-1305-U-Boot-Bordgeschutz-1944-Flensburg-Norwegen-U-Boat-VIIC-41-Christiansen-/390954808145?pt=Fotografien_Fotokunst&hash=item5b06b8f351)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7401/16425017285_7f7738145e_o.jpg)
U-1105 - All known Alberich boat use this pattarn (4 large vents).
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7412/15802521494_42fcb7363b_o.jpg)
U-1305 - The large vents are missing.
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Hi Simon,
I've checked the Roessler book again and it is quite clear. It says U 1304 and U 1306 (it does not say U 1304 to U 1306). This implies U 1305 did not have the Alberich.
The photo on Ebay shows the boat being commissioned so we can be absolutely sure it did not have Alberich on 13th Sept 44.
This photo shows the boat in may 45 -
http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/17-45/for_con/germania/VIIC41/U1305/U1305.htm (http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/17-45/for_con/germania/VIIC41/U1305/U1305.htm)
The quality isn't great but it looks to me like the medium sized vents above the saddle tanks (the ones you are rightly using as a comparison) are the normal type, not the Alberich type.
Is it possible Alberich was applied after Sept 44 and then removed before May 45? I think this would be highly unlikely.
So yes, although not 100% certain, I'd say there was very strong evidence Alberich was not fitted to U 1305.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Simon,
I've checked the Roessler book again and it is quite clear. It says U 1304 and U 1306 (it does not say U 1304 to U 1306). This implies U 1305 did not have the Alberich.
The photo on Ebay shows the boat being commissioned so we can be absolutely sure it did not have Alberich on 13th Sept 44.
This photo shows the boat in may 45 -
http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/17-45/for_con/germania/VIIC41/U1305/U1305.htm (http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/17-45/for_con/germania/VIIC41/U1305/U1305.htm)
The quality isn't great but it looks to me like the medium sized vents above the saddle tanks (the ones you are rightly using as a comparison) are the normal type, not the Alberich type.
Is it possible Alberich was applied after Sept 44 and then removed before May 45? I think this would be highly unlikely.
So yes, although not 100% certain, I'd say there was very strong evidence Alberich was not fitted to U 1305.
Cheers,
Dougie
Dougie, did you also noted in the photo on Ebay of U-1305 that it had double spare 37 mm Gun Barrels. I have never see this before.
All the photo's I have of the spare 37 mm Gun Barrel are, single and on the starbroad side of the boat.
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Hi Simon,
Well noticed in the spare containers. My guess is one of them is for a spare 20mm barrel and the other for a spare 37mm barrel. I wouldn't like to say which side was for which barrel.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Simon,
Well noticed in the spare containers. My guess is one of them is for a spare 20mm barrel and the other for a spare 37mm barrel. I wouldn't like to say which side was for which barrel.
Cheers,
Dougie
Yes, it could be a space 20mm barrel. I not seen any documentation indicating that the barrel of the 20 mm being changes during combat. If my memory serves me well, I think the German only needed to put constant 100 rounds through the 3.7 cm flaK M42 before it overheated and started to deformed barrel.
The thing that surprises me the most about the double barrel, is the obvious keenness of using the flaK gun because of the double spare barrel. I would had imagine it would be suicidal at that time of the war to fight aircraft on the surface.
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Hello,
is it possible that the duble replacement barrel container is related to a 20mm four-barrel gun?
U-Boot im Focus Nr. 9 page 47 shows U 596 with these gun and also two containers...
Regards
Uboatfan
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Hello,
is it possible that the duble replacement barrel container is related to a 20mm four-barrel gun?
U-Boot im Focus Nr. 9 page 47 shows U 596 with these gun and also two containers...
Regards
Uboatfan
I not seen the photo of U-596, any chance you are able post an image of it?
It seen to me very unlikely that they would mount this flaK gun on U-1305, for several reasons.
The gun was super heavy, and was almost too heavy for the Type VIIC’s. I believe it was only mounted on a very few Type VIIC’s.
As U-1305 as a late war Type VIIC/41 (Commissioned 13 Sep 1944) I would imagine it would follow the trend of other late war Type VIIC’s and be mounted with the new single 3.7cm Flak M42U gun on the LM 43U mount.
At the start the German trend of Flak on U-boat Type VIIC’s was to add bigger guns to there boats. As Allies airpower improved, the German drifted to putting more lead into the sky with smaller calibrated guns like the 20 mm Flak (a much higher firing rate). This was easily counted by Allies airpower by adapting new tactics against U-boat. The Allies began to use two aircrafts to hunt U-boat, one aircraft would fly around in plain view of U-boat but just outside the range of the smaller 20 mm Flak. While the U-boat was distracted by the first aircraft, a second aircraft would come in hard and fast, perhaps with the sun behind it and get the killer blow. So near the end of the war the German’s started replacing the 20 mm Flak with the bigger 37 mm Flak to keep the Allies aircraft further away and at bay.
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Hi NZSnowman,
most boats that had 3.7cm zwilling guns, (M42 DLM42U) have 2 spare barrel containers, it is possible that a single 3.7cm gun could have 2 barrel containers, although unlikely. So far I have found only type IXs with M43 DLM42U, but it is not impossible for a type VII to have M43s, single or twin.
Regards
Jon
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Hi NZSnowman,
most boats that had 3.7cm zwilling guns, (M42 DLM42U) have 2 spare barrel containers, it is possible that a single 3.7cm gun could have 2 barrel containers, although unlikely. So far I have found only type IXs with M43 DLM42U, but it is not impossible for a type VII to have M43s, single or twin.
Regards
Jon
Jon,
I maybe wrong but I thought that they only made the Flak M43 for surface ship. That is why they never call it the M43U.
Or I am miss-understand and you are taking about LM 43U mount.
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Hi NZSnowman,
To clarify
M42 LM42U single 3.7cm fitted to both type VIIs and type IXs
C38 DLM43U twin 2cm fitted both types. DLM43U would not have been able to support the 3.7cm M42 or M43
M43 LM42U single 3.7cm fitted to type VIIs and type IXs, cheaper to manufacture, greater rate of fire, shorter range (and barrel)
M42 DLM42U twin 3.7cm - U boats ]
M43 DLM42U twin 3.7cm - U boats ][size=78%] [/size][/size]same mount, just different gun[size=78%]
Or the short answer the M43 I was previously referring to was the gun not the mount. The M43 was definitely fitted to at least one U Boat, the U 534, so was most probably fitted to other boats that had their single 3.7cm upgraded to a twin during the latter months of the war, no exact date for the U 534s fitment but sometime after October '44. It would not have been necessary to develop a new mount for the M43 as its pivot point and firing linkage are virtually identical to the M42. To be honest it is very difficult to spot the difference between the M42 and M43 in wartime photos.
Regards
Jon
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Jon,
Thanks for the information about the M43.
Q. How do I tell the diffent between the M42 and M43 in wartime photos? Do you have any drawing/photo's of the M43
Q. As the LM 43U mount is a upgrade on the LM 42U and is a late war gun mount. Would you say all LM 43U were mounted with the M43?
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Hi NZSnowman,
I have various bits and pieces, I will sort some out and post them during the weekend.
Regards
Jon
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Hi NZSnowman,
As promised some differences between M42 and M43.
The easiest difference if you can see the rear of the breach is the cutout at the bottom of the back plate which is only present on M43s, also note that the fillet plates on the rearmost ammo guide is much longer, compare M42 breach.jpg and M43 fillets.jpg and the guides on the U 534 M43.jpg. As I said before the barrel is shorter, that is very hard to spot in a photo, I've included the ends of a pair of M43 barrels but I think they are too similar to M42 flash hider and breach connection to be able to determine the difference. The real give away is the rear breach cover. I am not convinced that other differences are absolute for each type so I have noted those that I am certain of.
Regards
Jon
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Thanks, Jon.
Thanks for the pictures and information.
You are right, a good photo is essential to tell them apart. I checked all my photo's and the only one I can tell that had a M43 is on U-190.
How much shorter is the M43 barrel? As I want to update my drawings.
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Hi NZSnowman,
I can't confirm these figures, but I have barrel length 2.56m for M42 and 2.11m for M43, only thing is I assume that is for a complete barrel. Unfortunately the 2 spare barrels for the U 534 are suspended from the ceiling out of reach.
Regards
Jon
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Hi NZSnowman
Just to muddy the water I have a few different figures for the M42 barrel length, but all are longer than the figure for the M43 barrel, next time I visit the U 534 I will figure a way of measuring the spare barrels. I'm still trying to figure out how to get under her and maybe on the deck, failing that a laser range finder and some surveyor poles (and a dull day).
BTW I have a picture that claims to be the U 190 after capture with a M42 DLM42U, but the picture definitely shows an M43.
Lets be honest, how many time have you seen a wrongly captioned picture. I've discussed these problems with Dougie several times. I put some of these mistakes down to the pressures of professional authors meeting a deadline.
Regards
Jon
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Today I had a I few spare hours between studies so I choose to start modelling the Balcongerät in SketchUp. It was not long before I realise something was not right with my initial drawing.
After a little bit of research, I am sure that I got the wrong curve at the front of the Balcongerät in my initial drawing. I will try to fix this over the next few months when I have free time.
So if anyone is using my drawing or are planning to, beware that front of the Balcongerät is incorrect
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In the past with my drawings, when there are no original German plans it very hard to work out the correct angles or dimensions of U-boat objects. Now with 3-D modelling there a new way to check these.
You can build a basic model and rotate and align the model so it matches a war-time photo, you can now see if the outline matches.
Below I wanted to check the angle and the sizing of the front of the Balcongerät.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5631/22283865373_da9cae1dc7_o.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/737/22879033886_1bd373170b_o.jpg)
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Hi Snowman,
don't know if you have the attached picture for your research: It shows the GHG of the type twenty-three (U-2344).
IMO the interesting thing is the look at the inner structure of the GHG. Although the outer shape of the GHG for the type twenty-three and typeseven are not identically structured the picture could maybe support your drawings.
Regards
falo
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Here are a few early pictures of the new Balcongerät
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/610/22971680195_45a25f1124_o.png)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/628/22553392947_d3195c19c4_o.png)
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Hi Snowman,
well done thank you for sharing!
To make a request: Could you add the frame numbers and do you have a top and a underside view?
Thanks in advance
falo
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Hi Snowman,
well done thank you for sharing!
To make a request: Could you add the frame numbers and do you have a top and a underside view?
Thanks in advance
falo
I almost finish the modelling. I will post the model on my U-boat 3D Warehouse page.
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection.html?id=u4a2facb6-00be-441c-a5e5-ffd7a3c3549d (https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection.html?id=u4a2facb6-00be-441c-a5e5-ffd7a3c3549d)
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Very cool NZ. My mind jumps at the possibility of people using these 3D models to 3Dprint out 1/32 sized parts for a giant model. building the hull would be relatively simple but being able to print out these parts in such detail would e awesome.
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Hi Snowman,
thanks again for the "Balkongeraet" (GHG) drawings.
I used your sketches for a small scratchbuilt of the GHG (Scale 1/72). Please look at the first photo below (#0021), its a a shot from the status before sanding with fine grid. Thanks to your drawings it was very easy to construct it to this point as shown on the pix. IMO - and as mentioned before in many posts of this forum - your skills are outstanding.
But to my request: Next step are now the arrangement of the dots ("Kristallempfaenger"). Please look at the second attached pix. IMO the layout of the dots is shifted. If you see the red arrows scribbled on the original photo and on your sketch, you can recognize what I'am supposing. What do you think about it?
Thanks for your support and regards
falo
Hey falo , Nice build.
Do you have a build thred for that anywhere?
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The Trimble login is now working, so I have uploaded the 3-D model of the Balkon Geraet. Its not finish yet but its give you a idea of how its looks.
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection.html?id=u4a2facb6-00be-441c-a5e5-ffd7a3c3549d (https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection.html?id=u4a2facb6-00be-441c-a5e5-ffd7a3c3549d)
Download SketchUp Viewer
http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer (http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer)
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Hi Snowman,
thanks for the download link. I dare a forecast: Some day you will have all sections and parts together to print "U 1308" via Shapeways or on your own 3D printer. And lots of them will be workable parts. :)
Regards
falo
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@ OldNoob
there you have me: Just for a long time it's my intention to start a thread here of my (mostly) scratch building typseven/41. The build is nearly done (complete with diorama), but during the building process I took hundreds of pictures which are waiting for a sort. I think I need a little bit self-motivation for that task ;)
Regards
falo
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The Trimble login is now working, so I have uploaded the 3-D model of the Balkon Geraet. Its not finish yet but its give you a idea of how its looks.
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection.html?id=u4a2facb6-00be-441c-a5e5-ffd7a3c3549d (https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection.html?id=u4a2facb6-00be-441c-a5e5-ffd7a3c3549d)
Download SketchUp Viewer
http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer (http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer)
I have reach the end of the modelling I can do on the Balkon Geraet without better wartime photo’s or plans. I believe the model is about 95% correct and about 70% finish. Perhaps, one day some good photo’s will turn up of the Type VIIC’s Balkon Geraet so I can finish the model.