Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 576597 times)

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Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1770 on: 22 May , 2014, 07:46 »
Thanks again, still some steps to do here till I can test the acceleration speed.

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1771 on: 23 May , 2014, 07:52 »
Hi Gentlemen,

As the blowerclutch, the engineclutch was a double cone frictionclutch, the difference being the size and it was pneumatic/hydraulic operated. I guess you could engaged the clutch at 350 revs, but the wear and tear increases with the speed and inertia forces so we usually started with the clutch engaged. Engaging the clutch at relatively high speed created a lot of smoke allthough nobody knew about the asbestos danger, the smoke could be unpleasant in a confined space.

 Operating instructions state that the clutches should not be engaged when turning the shaft above 350 RPM.  They may be disengaged at any RPM.

The torsional vibrations in the shafting were diffcult to discover as no torsional meter was installed, however the engines were equipped with torsional vibrationdampers up front, but I doubt if that took care of all situations. I have seen a few photos of VIIC shafts breakages which clearly was due to torsional vibration stresses, but if these engines had been equipped with a torsional vibrationdamper I cannot tell.

The GW engines produced strong torsional vibrations in the crank shafts in the following RPM ranges: 260-290 and 360-450. The vibration dampers reduced them almost completely. The operating instructions say, that in case of damper failure, it must be removed (contrary to the MAN dampers, those in case of damage don't have to be removed) and the critical RPMs have to be passed over.

Some of the U-Boats were equipped with the Diesel Engine Torsional Vibration Indicator System. For the details see:
http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm
section S65, page 30.

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Maciek


Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1772 on: 23 May , 2014, 09:13 »
Maciek.
It is always good to have a statement confirmed, you are an expert for finding written confirmations. The torsional vibration dampers varies in design, as your info on the GW and MAN engines mention. One is f.i.  mechanical, the other is hydraulical. I believe for the earlier boats they had a torsional vibration meter fitted. I cannot remember we had any. In the 1930 years it was not common to carry out relative complex torsional vibrations calculations for shaft systems, so I guess you had a torsionalmeter to monitor same. But as I said, there have been VIIC shaftbreakages due to torsional vibration stresses and may be they started to make more complex  torsional vibration calculations after that and installed a better tailormade vibration damper at a later stage. Just a theory from my side. The Rooths blower created torsional vibration as well and the drive had another mechanical vibration damper. After the war torsional vibration calculations became mandatory for all seagoing vessels and has to be submitted to the classification societies for approval. The barred rpm range varied considerably between a 6 cylinder and a 9 cylinder engine (IXC) as well as to which inertia masses you connected E-motors propeller etc. so you can not put up rpm valid for more than one cylinder- and mass configuration.
You mainclutch operatings instruction fit very well with my experience, but I would`t like to use 350 rpm as a standard. The wear would require frequent adjustments and even renewal of the friction layer.
« Last Edit: 23 May , 2014, 09:15 by tore »

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1773 on: 23 May , 2014, 11:00 »
Just out of interest, what type of torpedoes have you used with Kaura?

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1774 on: 23 May , 2014, 13:28 »
Mark
Torpedoes were a bit far away from my responsibility so I am afraid I cannot give you much info. We were training on using the LUT torpedoes but as the Germans had stored and left a huge amount of the ordinary "workhorse" torpedoes in  Norway, I believe some 1200, we were put up for using those. I cannot remember the the type no. I believe Maciek knows more on this than I do.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1775 on: 23 May , 2014, 18:06 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


On Plate 17 there is a valve with a "T" as normal, and a line with a bubble in the end of it.  I can not find this valve in the symbol page?  Can you identify this valve and how it functions?


Photo attached....


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1776 on: 24 May , 2014, 02:32 »
Don.
I cannot remember the symbol so I have to try to figure out. The valve you have marked is the air blow stopvalve for the regulating tank 2 port. stb has the same. These  stopvalves are used for all the MBTs but then the housing contains a checkvalve as well.  Below is a photo of airblow hull stopvalve MBT 4 stb. For the regulating tanks I guess they look similar except the checkvalve is removed. I assume these valves  should be able to be locked open so may be the symbol indicate a lockingdevice.

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1777 on: 24 May , 2014, 03:27 »
Hi Gentlemen,


according to the Technisches Hilfsbuch für den Gebrauch in der Krietsmarine, this is symbol means plombierte Ventile, that is sealed valve. I must admit, that I don't understand, why sealing hull valve for blowing regulating tank. In case of Tauchbunker it is obvious - to prevent accidental blowing the fuel. It should be the same case for the regulating and reserve fuel tank 1 - but it is not.


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Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1778 on: 24 May , 2014, 06:04 »
Maciek.
I guess plombiert could mean the valve is locked in a position f.i. either open or shut. The valve arrangement is not only fitted on fuel ballasttanks but on several tanks having a blowing arrangement including MBT 3. I believe normally the ballast tanks blow valves were in a locked open position, for those to be carrying fuels the valves were locked in shut position in both cases the plombierung means locked in the position required. For reliefvalves f.i. we very often use the expression plombiert which actually mean putting a lead seal on the lock to the valve to ensure no unauthorized person change it. The authorized person can brake the seal and adjust the valve to any value. I don`t think the VIIC valves had a lead seal,  though ;D but an ordinary lockingdevice to prevent any accidental change.
Tore

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1779 on: 24 May , 2014, 11:14 »
A "plombiertes Ventil" should be a safety valve.


In Abhängigkeit von der Federauslegung kann der Ansprechdruck von Sicherheitsventilen in einem gewissen Bereich eingestellt werden. Der vorgegebene Ansprechdruck wird erreicht, indem über einen Gewindeeinsatz die Federvorspannung beeinflusst wird. Die Stellung der Vorspannung wird z. B. über eine Kontermutter gegen Lockern gesichert. Die Einstellverschraubung wird mit einer Haube verschlossen. Als Maßnahme gegen unbefugte Änderung der Einstellung wird diese Haube mit einer Plombe gesichert.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1780 on: 24 May , 2014, 13:56 »
Mark
Exactly! ;D
Tore

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1781 on: 24 May , 2014, 14:21 »
Currently my calculation gives a thrust force of 20,001.42 lbs (88,970.75 N) for a single propeller of the Type VII at 470 RPM, 1400HP and 17.7kn - does that sound OK?

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1782 on: 24 May , 2014, 14:30 »
Hi,



A "plombiertes Ventil" should be a safety valve.


In Abhängigkeit von der Federauslegung kann der Ansprechdruck von Sicherheitsventilen in einem gewissen Bereich eingestellt werden. Der vorgegebene Ansprechdruck wird erreicht, indem über einen Gewindeeinsatz die Federvorspannung beeinflusst wird. Die Stellung der Vorspannung wird z. B. über eine Kontermutter gegen Lockern gesichert. Die Einstellverschraubung wird mit einer Haube verschlossen. Als Maßnahme gegen unbefugte Änderung der Einstellung wird diese Haube mit einer Plombe gesichert.


Not any valve, secured with the seal? This part of text from Wikipedia describes (in my opinion) safety valve, whose overpressure setting is secured with the seal agaist accidental change.
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Maciek




Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1783 on: 24 May , 2014, 14:36 »
Currently my calculation gives a thrust force of 20,001.42 lbs (88,970.75 N) for a single propeller of the Type VII at 470 RPM, 1400HP and 17.7kn - does that sound OK?


Each main thrust bearing can transfer up to 10,000 kg (22046 lbs) of thrust. So it looks ok.


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Maciek

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1784 on: 24 May , 2014, 14:41 »
Quote
This part of text from Wikipedia describes (in my opinion) safety valve, whose overpressure setting is secured with the seal agaist accidental change.


Yes, that's what it describes. Sure, any valve could be sealed.