Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 576279 times)

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Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1755 on: 20 May , 2014, 14:41 »












Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1756 on: 20 May , 2014, 15:09 »
Mark.
 I am impressed, very clean and easy to see the essentials. As you say some details are missing, but I guess you have everything necessary for the game-. I guess it is one of the earlier VIICs as you have not put in the schnorchel handle, however the radarmast is in place. I am not sure when same was fitted, Simon or Maciek would know.
Well done mark.
Tore

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1757 on: 20 May , 2014, 15:26 »
Yes early VIIC but some things aren't like early VIIC, Simon showed me some things that won't belong there for early boats when I already had finished them. So actually I gave up on trying to make a command room for an early boat and will start the game with some generic interior. I have no idea what most of the things are anyway, I guess the radar mast is this one? If so then it does not belong to the boat the player will be able to use  :o  …but well if someone asks then I can call this an early experimental totally secret upgrade for the boat which is currently not working  :D

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1758 on: 20 May , 2014, 16:02 »
Hi Mark,
well done -  very nice of model of control room.


Yes early VIIC but some things aren't like early VIIC, Simon showed me some things that won't belong there for early boats when I already had finished them. So actually I gave up on trying to make a command room for an early boat and will start the game with some generic interior. I have no idea what most of the things are anyway, I guess the radar mast is this one? If so then it does not belong to the boat the player will be able to use  :o  …but well if someone asks then I can call this an early experimental totally secret upgrade for the boat which is currently not working  :D


Radar FuMO 30 entered the service in 1943. More informations you will find here:
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/equipment/radar-of-german-u-boats
Besides the mast, you will have to remove the electronic equipment box located between the navigator table and forward bulkhead of control room.


One interesting (but little known) detail would be the refrigerator unit, which consisted of two parts -  food chamber located in the forward part of the petty's officers room, in the stb corner (just behind the control room bulkhead) and the compressor unit , which was located in the control room - over the trim and drain manifold.
On U-995, in this place is some kind of metal basket, and in the petty's officers room is quite modern fridge.
Tore, do you remember, if the KMN Kaura was ever equipped with German refrigerator unit?


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Maciek

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1759 on: 20 May , 2014, 16:41 »

Radar FuMO 30 entered the service in 1943. More informations you will find here:
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/equipment/radar-of-german-u-boats
Besides the mast, you will have to remove the electronic equipment box located between the navigator table and forward bulkhead of control room.


It just takes way to much time to create the whole boat interior (for my first version), so I will go with the incorrect upgraded command room and with command room only in this version. I just had no good reference pictures of what was installed at the place of the FuMO30 before.  It's hard to find pictures of the older interiors.
And I guess the FuMO30 requires a newer conning tower… First version will be a reduced sim anyway - the later full version will support different U-Boat upgrades.


I'm already working on the game since 5 years and need to release or the people who are already waiting to play it will kill me one day   ;)

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1760 on: 20 May , 2014, 18:53 »
This web site seems to have a good deal of information on the different HP ratings for ships...


http://www.scribd.com/doc/7174460/Basics-of-Ship-Resistance


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1761 on: 20 May , 2014, 21:38 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you for the information on the pressure difference meter; it makes sense to compare the external sea water pressure against the Q tank internal pressure.


Besides my crewman who should be pealing potatoes on shore...  Are there  other ways to cause over pressure in the Q tank.  In any instance, it looks like the flood valve has to be closed.  Note*  I have been reading some articles and there looked to be quite a few problems with the Q tank flood valves leaking... 


I understand that there needs to be an automatic vent valve which will release gasses over a set pressure point.  At first it was hard to believe that the small relief valve and what looked to be a 3/8 inch line was large enough to handle the volume and pressure.  Especially when comparing it to the size if the pipe coming from Q tank to vent air into the hull through muffler.  That one looks to be about two inches in diameter.


Then. I guess reality sets in...  Q tank is 2 M3 on each side oh the U-boat.  Each side is equal to 70.6 FT3, or a little over 3 times the size of my 26 FT3 home refrigerator;  Q tank is NOT that darn big to begin with!  Both thanks combined only provide 4 metric tons of negative buoyancy.


The Type VIIC U-boat displaces 769 tons on the surface and 871 tons submerged...  It's amazing how much difference that 4 tons makes...


I apologize for all the trouble; I'm like a dog with a new chew toy and won't let go until I understand it!


Kind Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 20 May , 2014, 23:16 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1762 on: 20 May , 2014, 22:51 »
 Maciek.
Yes  I believe we had the german fridge. The door was right opposite to the officers and CPOs heads. ;D
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1763 on: 21 May , 2014, 00:08 »
Don.
The reliefvalve is not an automatic inboard vent and is not dimensioned as such, it is a reliefvalve which releases the max pressure and give a warning that something is wrong, more like a manometer pointing to the red part of the scale, telling you have to act immediately.
Volume of Q. I believe you should look into the way Q is meant to work, it is rather a help to get thru the surface in the first stage. When  you boat is on surface in areas where a crashdive could be necessary the tank is full,  ventvalve shut and floodvalve open. At the crashdive command you are app 4 tonnes heavier than normal, believe me for a submarine  it is substantial. Strange enough it is a certain inertia to get down thru the surface before the hydroplanes takes over, that`s where the Q helps. As soon as you have been thru that part, the hydroplanes and propeller takes completely over and are substantial more powerfull than Q. Then Q is not needed anymore and you should blow Q. This is usually at app. 10 meters for a VIIC I believe. Blowing at greater depth is waste of air and should be avoided apart from emergencies. Submerged the submarine is controlled by hydroplanes rudders and propellers and the submarine has the normal neutral buoyancy with Q empty. We never experience a leaking Q floodvalve.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1764 on: 21 May , 2014, 04:08 »
Mark,


Radar FuMO 30 entered the service in 1943. More informations you will find here:
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/equipment/radar-of-german-u-boats
Besides the mast, you will have to remove the electronic equipment box located between the navigator table and forward bulkhead of control room.


It just takes way to much time to create the whole boat interior (for my first version), so I will go with the incorrect upgraded command room and with command room only in this version. I just had no good reference pictures of what was installed at the place of the FuMO30 before.  It's hard to find pictures of the older interiors.
And I guess the FuMO30 requires a newer conning tower… First version will be a reduced sim anyway - the later full version will support different U-Boat upgrades.


I'm already working on the game since 5 years and need to release or the people who are already waiting to play it will kill me one day   ;)

Well, great work anyway. I'm also waiting for the release :)
Have you created all compartments? Could you paste some screen-shots?
What kind of software are you using?

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Regads
Maciek

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1765 on: 21 May , 2014, 05:07 »
Have you created all compartments? Could you paste some screen-shots?



No, only the command room. I want to build the whole interior for the later full version of the game which will also include at least Type IX. It just takes way too much time to build it. The main problem is there are no drawings that are of any use to build each tiny thing and when you build some parts too large or too small the whole then the whole thing won't fit at another position. It would be much easier to take a laptop and to build it while being inside U995 ;-)


This web site seems to have a good deal of information on the different HP ratings for ships...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7174460/Basics-of-Ship-Resistance


Can't count the number of website about this stuff that I've visited during the last 3 weeks :( …but actually haven't seen this one before which is pretty amazing for me because I thought I've seen all the PDFs now  :D   This is the first one that explains BHP and SHP in a good way






Tore, I guess you usually haven't accelerated the boat fast because of the fixed propeller pitch but what do you estimate would be a realistically looking time of acceleration to different (standard) speeds of the boat in seconds?


You said you could accelerate the declutched engine from 0 to 350 RPM in 3-4 seconds. Currently my simulated engine can go to 350 RPM in 7-8 seconds with propeller (ignoring the boats speed, like being fixed somehow)

Another thing I haven't understood yet :(  is the use of the supercharger. I still don't get if it was used below 390 RPM at all (once it was clutched in above 390 RPM)


Related to this: the document Maciek posted shows two RPM/Horsepower lines which would only make sense if the charger can be used below 390 RPM but even then it makes no sense because the manual says above 410 (or 420?) the engine can't be used without the supercharger. Can someone explain the two lines? My guess is it's just a theoretical interpolation for each line.
The fuel consumption shown makes sense to me as it does not show fuel consumption for RPMs of the uncharged engine above 420 and RPMs for the charged engine below 420.


I sometimes need more time to understand this stuff, my only real life experience with engines is a lawn mover and even this is 20 years ago. (I have no car, no driving license etc.)
« Last Edit: 21 May , 2014, 05:42 by VIC20 »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1766 on: 21 May , 2014, 07:54 »
Mark.
I have not any figures on the acceleration subject so it has to be guesswork, may be Maciek has some. Anyhow as you rightly stated the VIICs have  fixed propellers, as such it has bad efficiency in some ranges. If the vessel is at 0 speed and should increase to say 17 knots, you start the engines and stir up a lot of water for the first 100 m. Then the propellers gradually improves and you increase the revs to max. and you might achieve 17 knots at some 300 m. So  a guesstimate of 400m to obtain full speed of 17 knots. Which means an acceleration from 0 to 17 knots or app 31,2 km/hours over 400m. This is a pure guesswork from my side and take it for that.
Your simulation of an engineacceleration 0-350 rpm on 7-8 seconds seems not to bad to me with all the components connected.
Roots blower.
I believe the Roots blower is not an ordinary supercharger but rather a booster which is needed for getting extra max. output. The difference being as an ordinary turbo supercharger takes the thermal waste energy from the exhaustgases and thus improve both the output and fuelconsumption, the Roots blower require energy which is taken directly from the engine via the camshaft drive. Thus it takes a higher specific fuelconsumption to boost the engines, but it was at that time a common way to get more output of the engines. MAN submarine engines had a first generation turbocharger called the Buchi system and utilized the thermal energy of the exhaustgases.
 Thus you did not want to run the Roots blower unnecessary as it took energy from the engines. The GW engines operated as normal aspirated engines up to 390- 400 rpm I Guess, then you had to make use of the Roots blowers to get more output. At lower revs like below 390 the blower did not contribute anything in fact it took only energy from the engines for doing nothing, moreover it is not an advantage to have two big rotating weights connected to the camshaft drive wear and tear, torsional vibration. etc. So it was definitely disconnected at lower revs like 390 rpm.
Tore
« Last Edit: 21 May , 2014, 07:59 by tore »

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1767 on: 21 May , 2014, 08:53 »
Within 400 meters? Wow that seems fast. I'm upgrading the "engine" to the new data from Maciek's documents and I'm thrilled to see if my simulation automatically matches that later.


Quote
Your simulation of an engineacceleration 0-350 rpm on 7-8 seconds seems not to bad to me with all the components connected.


It's the result of an idealized calculation, I feared it would be too fast. "seems not to bad to me" is great because all I want to achieve is something that looks convincing at the end :)


Doh! I forgot that U 995 has the MAN engine.


BTW what about the basic colors? Are they correct in U995 today?
My current color setup looks like this:



Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1768 on: 21 May , 2014, 09:29 »
Mark.
Remember it is guesswork, having said that, the VIICs were reasonably fast on the surface compared to other conventional submarines as they had fairly high dieselengine output,for the tonnage. wolfpack tactic. Submerged, the speed wasn`t that great.
U 995 engine. I am afraid you have misunderstood me,  the U 995 has Krupp Germaniawerft engines and as such Roots blower. I Guess the white colours are OK however on the Laboe U 995 people have gone mad with red paint and practically every cock and switch has been painted red, it looks as if she got the measles. Don't forget they have put up fluorescentic lights for the visitors, the lightings were not that bright.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #1769 on: 22 May , 2014, 00:33 »
I have been thinking on yesterdays acceleration estimates  and believe an increase in speed from 0 to 17 knots over 400 meters could be a bit too much, you should probably give it another 100- 150 meter thus the speedincrease over 500 to 550 meters. Still it is a guesstimate. ;D
Tore