Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 595583 times)

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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4185 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:44 »
Don.
I had some problem with enclosing my bad quality images, here is another  bad sketch of the group exhaustvalve with drainage.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4186 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:47 »

Hello Mr. Tore,


If the blow through was risky...

The normal starting procedure is always to "blow trough" as we called it (mainly running the engine by starting air with open indicator cocks without fuel) prior to a normal upstart. Blowing out the waterintrusion by starting air is as mentioned previously  risky.



Then would you manually crank the engine? Do I need to correct/change the page that I sent to you?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4187 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 02:55 »

Don I guess you should modify some of the wording, I `ll revert a bit later ( have to attend a funeral).
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4188 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 03:01 »
My condolences...
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4189 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 10:55 »
Don. In your paragraph: " during a Dive, you state " If the main group exhaustvalve grindingprocess did not form a perfect seal......  you may say: in the rare event of not having a successful grinding of the group exhaustvalve causing a major waterintusion exceeding the draining capacity of the inboard main exhaustvalve and the engine exhaust manifold to be flooded, water might enter the main engine via the exhaustvalves in the cylinderheads.....
You may of course  use your native language to the express the meaning, but avoid leaving an impression that this was a normal event. Although an unsuccessful grinding was quite common it was very seldom so bad that it resulted flooding the main engine, the internal drainage could usually handle the leakage.
On the same page you state : after a dive you should never start the engine by air.... Normally you always start by air, but before starting after a dive with waterintrusion you should turn the engine manually with open indicatorcocks before a normal starting, which means blowing starting air through the cylinders with open indicator cocks prior to shutting the cocks and run the engine by air before startingfuel is added. Turning the engine by hand for checking/draining the cylinders can be done immediately after a dive which is often done if water intrusion is observed.   It might be a bit complicated, but in many cases you want to be ready for exhaust blowing as soon as you surface and then you are usually preparing the engines for start before surfacing. As you are aware of the CO does not like to increase the internal over pressure so you are careful with using too much air in the starting preparation otherwise  the CO might be ejected through the tower hatch when he enters the bridge.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4190 on: 10 Dec , 2019, 17:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,

After translating the German and Japanese "Lubricator" documents, I have come to the conclusion that this devise only serves one purpose; to lubricate the cylinder sleeve and the piston rings. It has nothing to do with lube oil emulsification or sulfuric acid in the combustion chamber of the Diesel engine. I have attached the diagram from the German lubricator and translated the title;"Central Oil System Grutzner EZ up to 150 Bar with Rocker Arm Drive"... Now, doesn't that look and sound familiar?
<first drawing attached>

The Japanese document discussed the process of adding the ports to the Piston Sleeve...

The parts to be replaced during remodeling work are indicated by. When installing the MPL system, the cylinder liner must be grooved, but construction can be done without removing the piston with a dedicated tool. (B & W. UFC Type)

● Lubrication timing and range_____________________________________________________
<second drawing attached>
MPL has the same mechanism as the conventional mechanical type and achieves "low cost" and "equivalent oiling rate" compared to the electronic control type.

It looks like they inject Lub oil in both sides of the piston sleeve to lubricate the piston rings in contact with the piston sleeve; reducing friction and heat to preserve and prolong the life of the diesel engine.

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 10 Dec , 2019, 17:25 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4191 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 00:32 »
The cylinderlubrication on the GW engines is done by the piston ring arrangement as a trunkpiston engine usually would be susceptible to too much luboil drawn from the crankcase up into the cylinder causing the luboil to take part in the combustion prosess fouling up the engine and increasing the luboil consumption. The piston skirt on a trunk engine is an elongation of the piston for a proper distribution of the sideforces, the cylinderliner lower part of a trunk engine gets in contact with the oilsplash in the crankcase, sticking to the cylinderliner and is drawn up to the combustion chamber. This could lead to building up carbon in the cylinder, hence you rather fit a piston scraper ring than a cylinder lubrication point in the liner.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4192 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 01:07 »
Don I guess your latest addition on the lubricator (cylinder lubrication of the GW engine) could be omitted.

Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4193 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 01:33 »
Hello Mr. Tore,
Then what does the lubricator do?
Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4194 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 03:01 »
Don.

You may say the GW engine is an oldfashioned engine in many ways and the point lubrication was not perfect, you still needed a greaser with an oil can. The " fillingstation" for the oilcan is on the front bulkhead  stb side you`ll find it on the luboilsystem plate. A point lubrication oil tank fills the greasers oilcan manually. The lubricator is an attempt to improve the  manual greaser by leading small pipes to difficult accessible lubrication points. Below are a few images showing what I try to explain. First of all I don`t remember all the lubrication points on the top of the engines, but the rockeram fulcrums are manual lubrication points, and I have included an exhaustvalve cage with a valvestem which needs lubrication, the connection in the cylindercover to the lubricator is assumed by me as the valvecage image is not from a GW engine. On the modern diesels the top with all the valves are covered by a so called dustcover and the oil is splashing all over eleminating the greaser.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4195 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 03:20 »
Don further to my todays post here is the plate showing the greasers " can filling station."
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4196 on: 11 Dec , 2019, 08:21 »
Don I had a quick look at the specification for the  m/y Haida ...you mentioned. the engines are installed in 1929, no mentioning if they are four stroke trunkengines or bore/stroke. However they are mentioning one damage due to a chromium plated cylinderliner, chromium plated cylinderliners use to be for two stroke crosshead engines. The Krupp Germaniawerft made submarine- and yacht diesel engines and the image of the lubricator looks similar to the lubricator on the VIIc type. What make me suspicious as a possible reference for cylinderlubrication need, is the Krupp engine specification, cast iron piston and chromium plated cylinderliner which cannot be compared with the GW engine having light alloy piston and cast iron cylinerliner. Most four stroke trunk dieselengines to day have not cylinder lubrication. I can`t remember any on U 995 but failing memories exsists.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 Dec , 2019, 08:25 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4197 on: 12 Dec , 2019, 05:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


A little research... GM built the US Navy sub engines and I have attached the Piston design. It looks like the cylinder liner is lubricated from the piston. Oil exits the piston crown and is captured below the compression rings and exits at the out the Lub control rings into the oil sump.


Do you have any drawings of the GW engines pistons?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2019, 05:22 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4198 on: 12 Dec , 2019, 05:54 »
Don. your image shows a light alloy trunkpiston with internal coolingribs inside the piston crown. The lubricating oil is forced up in the bore of the piston rod from the mainbearing and is squirting out from the gudgeon pin bearing towards the cooling ribs in the piston crown. This system is a combination of a bearinglubrication and a cooling of the piston by the luboil. The oil is collected in a cooling chamber in contact with the pistoncrown, the coolingchamber have a direct natural free drain down to the crankcase and do not take direct part in the lubrication.  What is interesting however is that the image shows the lower pistonringpacket named as oilcontrol rings with drain borings in the piston skirt. The drain goes from the ringgrove in the pistonskirt  (not on the surface) and down thus do not take part in lubrication of the cylinderliner but leaving the piston inside the pistonskirt wall to the crankcase, this confirms that you rather scrape down the luboil in the lower part of the cylinder liner to control the luboil consumption (preventing to draw the luboil up into the combustion chamber.)
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2019, 10:10 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #4199 on: 12 Dec , 2019, 06:40 »
Don.  Below is a cross section of the GW engine, the piston is an uncooled trunkpiston of light alloy. 400 mm dia. As you see from the cross sectiondrawing there are no cylinderlubricating points. On the lower part of the pistonskirt is an oilcontrol ringpacket consisting of scraper rings which control the upward luboilflow by scraping the oil downwards. From the scrapering piston groove there are drain bores going to the internal piston skirt letting the oil to be drained down into the crankcase and systemtanks.
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2019, 10:02 by tore »