Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 598183 times)

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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3030 on: 27 Jun , 2016, 00:44 »
Don.
It could depend on the cause for the emergency. F.i. if the officer on watch while the sub being submerged has to make an evasive dive (collision or ramming danger) at periscope depth, there is no time to change  people,and you can`t use dynamic (hydroplanes) diving, steep angle, the officer of watch would order fill Q! An extra weight in excess of 4 tonnes gives a pretty good sinking effect and as Q is placed about midhips, there is no trimming moment and as people remains where they are, you don`t need to compensate using trimtanks.
If the officer on watch are free to to use dynamic diving he order the hydroplane angle and goes dynamically deeper and order pumping out water from the compensating tanks. Only in extreme using Q.
Thus emergency actions would not necessarily be carried out by diving station manning, but handled by the people of watch. But I can assure you, the CO and EO as well as the controlroom engineer would be in the controlroom  in a split of a second to take over.
Such procedures would be laid down in the CO orderbook and usually every CO would require to be called in immediately to take over.
Using the trimtanks to get a bow down for going deeper would normally not be done, you can do a lot by hydroplanes and it is very smooth.
Tore
« Last Edit: 27 Jun , 2016, 00:59 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3031 on: 27 Jun , 2016, 22:28 »
Hello Mr. Tore.


I was thinking about adding this info to the Prologue: diving sequence...  What do you think???



"Using the trim tanks while diving or surfacing


During a normal dive procedure there are lots of people moving around particularly from the crew quarters to the fwd. torpedo room, the aft control room, the engine room, and the aft torpedo room. This movement has an influence on the U-Boat's trim and you have to compensate for this by using the fwd. and aft trim tanks. So prior to giving the order diving station, you pump water from the aft trim tank to the fwd. trim tank; our experience was you needed approximately 400 liters of water to compensate for the movement of people. Hence, the trim tanks take part in the diving and surfacing procedure. Likewise, when battle station order is given (which are almost the same as diving station) similar actions are taken. When the situation is cancelled you operate the trim tanks in the opposite way.


While on the surface, if the officer of watch orders an emergency dive, then we would have several things happening at once. There would be an order to pump 400 liters of water from the aft trim tank to the fwd. trim tank to balance the U-Boat, and then the crewmen are quickly manning their assigned diving station. In addition, there would be a mad rush of non-assigned crewmen to the fwd torpedo room. This would be the added weight of the human ballast to assist the U-Boat's bow in breaking the ocean's surface and getting the emergency/crash dive started expeditiously. The Q tanks would be of no additional assistance because they were already flooded while on the surface.


While submerged and the U-Boat is in a trim state; if the officer of watch has to make an evasive dive (collision or ramming danger) at periscope depth, there is no time to move people, and you can`t use dynamic (hydroplanes) diving, steep angle, the officer of watch would order fill Q! An extra weight in excess of 4 tons which gives a pretty good sinking effect and as Q is placed about mid-ships; there is no trimming moment and the crew remains where they are.  If the officer of watch is free to use dynamic diving, then he orders the hydroplane angle and goes dynamically deeper. Only in extreme conditions using Q. Thus emergency actions would not necessarily be carried out by diving station manning, but handled by the officer of watch. However, I can assure you, the CO and EO as well as the control room engineer would be in the control room in a split second to take over. Such procedures would be laid-out in the CO order book and every CO would require that he be called in immediately to take over. Pumping additional water into the fwd. trim tank from the bow trim tank, even in an emergency, to get the bow down for going deeper would normally not be done because you want to maintain the U-Boat's trim; you can do a lot by hydroplanes and it is a very smooth process."


Regards,
Don_

A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3032 on: 28 Jun , 2016, 01:28 »
Don.
The various procedures  on surface and submerged varies depending on the situation like weather, risk of be spotted, (airsuperiority) and are difficult to put down in a general rule. In the German navys Submarine commanders handbook for submarine ( U. Kdt. HDB) 1942, published by the San Francisco Maritime National Park Association, you`ll find the German Navy`s advices to their submarine commanders as of 1942.
I don`t think you should emphasize too much on adjusting the trim in emergency situations as time is the ruling factor. You are able to compensate the trim dynamically, and then using the trim tanks at a later stage.
Operating with the Q filled , I should think a risk of undercutting would exist. As you know the VIIC/41s and the some of the VIICs got the bow buoyancy tank and the Atlantic bow to reduce the undercutting risk, however with a low trim they encountered problems with the Junker compressor exhaust, all told, I would guess the use of low trim could vary between the various boats depending on their year and design. This is another discussion and may be it would be confusing to introduce in your Skizzenbuch.
Tore
« Last Edit: 28 Jun , 2016, 02:47 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3033 on: 28 Jun , 2016, 14:49 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


How does this re-write look?



"Using the trim tanks while diving or surfacing


During a normal dive procedure there are lots of people moving around particularly from the crew quarters to the fwd. torpedo room, the aft control room, the engine room, and the aft torpedo room. This movement has an influence on the U-Boat's trim and you have to compensate for this by using the fwd. and aft trim tanks. So prior to giving the order diving station, you pump water from the aft trim tank to the fwd. trim tank; our experience was you needed approximately 400 liters of water to compensate for the movement of people. Hence, the trim tanks take part in the diving and surfacing procedure. Likewise, when battle station order is given (which are almost the same as diving station) similar actions are taken. When the situation is cancelled you operate the trim tanks in the opposite way.


While running on the surface, if the officer of watch orders an emergency dive, then we would have several things happening at once. The crewmen would immediate man their assigned dining stations, and there would be a mad rush of non-assigned crewmen to the fwd torpedo room. This would be the added weight of the human ballast to assist the U-Boat's bow in breaking the ocean's surface and getting the emergency/crash dive started expeditiously. The Q tanks would be of no additional assistance because they were already flooded while on the surface. Once they achieve the desired diving depth and dynamically level-off, then they can worry about balancing the U-boat when time permits. While silent running, compressed air instead of the trim pump motor is used to move water between the trim tanks if needed, thus eliminating the motor's noise.


While submerged and the U-Boat is in a trim state; if the officer of watch has to make an evasive dive (collision or ramming danger) at periscope depth, there is no time to move people, and you can`t use dynamic (hydroplanes) diving, steep angle, the officer of watch would order fill Q! An extra weight in excess of 4 tons which gives a pretty good sinking effect and as Q is placed about mid-ships; there is no trimming moment and the crew remains where they are.  If the officer of watch is free to use dynamic diving, then he orders the hydroplane angle and goes dynamically deeper. Only in extreme conditions using Q - this emergency action would not necessarily be carried out by the officer of watch. I can assure you, the CO and EO as well as the control room engineer would be in the control room in a split second to take over. Such procedures would be laid-out in the CO order book and usually every CO would require that he be called in immediately to take over."


Regards,
Don_

A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3034 on: 29 Jun , 2016, 01:23 »
Don.
During normal diving procedure people take their divingstations which means people are moving from their quarters  to the divingstations, generally this means from the fwd. torpedoroom to the controlroom and engineroom. Thus people are not moving to fwd. torpedoroom, I assume this is a misprint in your text.
While running on the surface the general German instructions for crash diving advises no special trimming to be done as a VIIC  normally has a short diving time of 30 seconds, which you would need for disengaging and shutting down the diesels anyway, quicker than any preparation like moving people. Surfaced in enemy waters 1941 you had to be prepared for crash diving. Latter part of the 1944 you would be schnorchling.
During surface dieselcruising  I should think using the surface dieselspeed inert and hydroplanes would contribute to the shortest crash dive.Normally you would probably hold the venting of MBT1  a bit to assist the bow down angle. However it is up to the CO`s judgement to issue  the standing orders he may require in his orderbook. We usually kept the Q empty filling it only when needed.
I assume that your statement that the crew would immediate assume their assigned "dinnerstations" is a misprint. ;D
I guess as I said before, the various way to handle the sub depends on circumstances, experience and the CO.`s judgment, as well as the development of the strategical situation which is changing. Thus I don`t think you should going into accurate details how to handle the sub under various situations in your skizzenbook.
 In certain rare situations you may use people for trimming, I never felt the need for it.
Tore
« Last Edit: 29 Jun , 2016, 01:50 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3035 on: 29 Jun , 2016, 17:00 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Understood, I will leave it as original...


Thanks,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3036 on: 30 Jun , 2016, 07:18 »
Don.
Ok. As an additional info. I guess the submarine service of the German and the Royal Navy used Q differently, filling Q while cruising on the surface was seldom used in the RN, even if the RN submarines had forward folded hydroplanes above the waterlevel. Some CO`s might be tempted to cruise on the surface having the ballast tanks partly filled, a risky chance as the stability is reduced and the risk of undercutting is great. In the german navy partly filled ballast tanks was forbidden while cruising surfaced.
Tore   
« Last Edit: 30 Jun , 2016, 07:20 by tore »

Offline falo

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3037 on: 09 Jul , 2016, 00:43 »
Hi Tore,


I have a question about the "wasserdichte Back" (bow buoyancy tank). Do you have a picture or a drawing how the tank looks in three dimensions? (please see attached jpg).


I find on eBay a photo of a damaged type seven bow maybe it would be helpful to answer the question:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/U-BOOT-KRIEG-FOTO-U-302-NACH-DER-BUGKOLISION-KOMMANDANT-HERBERT-SICKEL-/231999050226?hash=item36043891f2:g:JV0AAOSwxvxW7dgu


Thanks in advance and best regards
falo

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3038 on: 09 Jul , 2016, 02:27 »
Falo
I am sorry I don`t have a 3D drawing of the bow boyancy tank. Looking at the sketch you posted I guess you have reduced the wasserdichte- back a bit too much. In general the tank is placed between frame 102 and 113 and goes out to the bowcasing.This means that the HP flask is inside the tank and I guess the anchor chain goes via a chainpipe to the anchor bay. As you probably know the tank has freeflood slits in the bottom and vent on the top. Right fwd of the tank is a forepeak, kind of small collision peak. See my sketches below. 
Tore

Offline falo

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3039 on: 09 Jul , 2016, 04:27 »
Hi Tore,

thank you very much for your fast and detailed reply.

Sometimes I wish I could drive to Laboe with a big can opener in my instrument case to open the outer hull of U-995 and photographing every small part of the inner structure. After that project I will post a very detailed photo report here, promised  ::)

Thanks again and egards
falo

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3040 on: 09 Jul , 2016, 05:07 »
Hi Falo.
Crawling inside the casing of U995 would not give you much info. I believe it i is almost an empty space as painting and maintaining this space is very difficult. When I was the EO of U995 I crawled all over and as I used to be a skinny guy, I got access to everything, today age and kilos would effectively prevent this even with a can opener! ;D
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3041 on: 27 Jul , 2016, 14:33 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Well, I'm starting a new project "Skizzenbuch: U-Boat Type IX C Project"...  I have attached Image 045.jpg which looks to be very similar in design and functionality to the Type VII C compensating water system with the water source coming from the Diesel Engine cooling water.  What do you think?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3042 on: 28 Jul , 2016, 00:53 »
Don.
IXC type is of course a bit outside this thread and I have never served on a IXC, but still it is interesting to make a comparison between VIIC and XIC. When comparing the watercompensating system, I agree there are a lot of similarities however as can be seen on my sketch below the external compensating water of the IXC seems to have a common supply pipe from the silencer/sparkarrestors to the headertank and the external fueltanks, which simplify the system. The internal system is basically the same.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3043 on: 28 Jul , 2016, 16:02 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


My Type IX project will take a year, or more, to completion... Can we use the current mail box, or should there be another Tore's mail box created for the Type IX U-Boat? There doesn't look to be anything really different between the two types of U-Boats.  I'm sure with my new found knowledge and input from you, Maciek, and others, we could have an interesting topic and great informative discussions. What is your advice?


Regards,
Don_   
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3044 on: 29 Jul , 2016, 00:25 »
Don.
I have of course no objection to include IXC in this thread. As to my contribution, I am afraid it would primarily be theoretical, based my VIIC and general submarine knowledge as I don`t know the IXCs in details. However as I said it might be of interest to have a discussion about the difference between the two types VIIC and IXC. As I have practical no manuals, drawings or books on the subject it might be convenient if you put forward the topics you would like to discuss enclosing the relevant attachments. You could perhaps start with the basics like development history, physical dimensions, GA plans, rudder and hydroplanes, periscopes, torpedo arrangement, main engines and E-motors etc. if you have details of same. I am sure apart from our old friends, there are people out there having substantial knowledge of the IXC, and although very similar, a discussion of the difference between the two types could have some interest I guess.
Tore