Author Topic: Early Type VIIB Deck Question  (Read 6149 times)

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Offline Mr. Bill

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Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« on: 21 Jan , 2009, 12:09 »
Greetings!

I am new here and would greatly appreciate help with some questions regarding the very early Type VIIB's that were commissioned during 1938.  In particular, I am interested in U-45 and U-47 as commissioned.  I reviewed the excellent materials prepared by Dougie Martindale and also the superb photos of U-45 that were recently released by the Bundesarchiv.   Specifically, I am interested in the deck configuration between the conning tower and the galley hatch.  Just behind the conning tower, there is a red & white rescue buoy on the centerline of the deck.  Behind the rescue buoy marker there is gap of about a meter or so and then there is the mount for the 20mm gun.  My question is about the space between the 20mm gun and galley deck hatch - was there a watertight container (similar to the one near the forward 88 deck gun) or not?  I don't see anything in this area from the photos, just the plain deck.   Later Type VIIB's seem to have a watertight container in this location.  The commissioning day photos of U-45 do not seem to show a watertight container in this area, but maybe I am missing something?

My other question concerns the location of the forward red/white rescue buoy.  I understand that is located about a meter behind the capstan, but was it on the deck centerline or offset to the port side?

Thanks for your help with this.

Mr. Bill     

 

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #1 on: 21 Jan , 2009, 14:57 »
Welcome aboard.

Yes

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #2 on: 22 Jan , 2009, 10:14 »
Many thanks for the reply and the information which is helpful.  I am still not certain about the early type VIIB's commissioned in 1938.  Have a look (zoom in if you can) at this commissioning day photo of U-45 that Siara posted in December. The red/white rescue buoy, 20mm gun, and galley hatch are all there, but no watertight container: 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Bundesarchiv_Bild_200-Ub0111%2C_Kiel%2C_Indienststellung_U-45.jpg

Perhaps these watertight containers were retrofitted to the early VIIB boats when the 20mm was moved to the enlarged wintergarten?  The later Type VIIB's that were built with the enlarged wintergarten seem to have had these watertights containers from commissioning.

Does anyone have further information on this? 

Thank you.





Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #3 on: 22 Jan , 2009, 11:37 »
You are right about the rescue buoy location in the picture.

It looks like the Type VII & VIIB U-boats before mid-1940 had a rescue buoy located between the 20mm gun, and galley hatch. From around mid-1940, they begin to enlarger the wintergarten and removing the rescue buoy from the earlier VIIB

Offline dougie47

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #4 on: 25 Jan , 2009, 08:39 »
Hi guys,

Apologies for not joining this thread earlier, this is the first time I could respond. Thanks for raising the question Mr. Bill, and welcome. Snowman has made some very decent responses so I will try not to repeat them.

On 19 August 1939, before the VIIBs sailed to take up positions in the Atlantic prior to hostilities, the pre-war markings were removed. The red and white buoys were moved under the deck at this time too.

Around the Jan/Feb 1940 time, VIIBs had the 20mm moved to the tower. It was a harsh winter so there would be plenty of time in refit anyway. These early VIIBs never had the ammo hatch on the aft deck, nor was this feature added to the early VIIBs.

However, the later VIIBs (which always had the 20mm on the tower) were all built with an ammo hatch on the rear deck.   

For U 47 modifications please see -

http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=870&page=2

Cheers,

Dougie

PS Thanks for your contributions Snowman...very nice!


Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #5 on: 25 Jan , 2009, 08:51 »
Thanks Dougie and Snowman for the information which confirms the photos I have seen of early and late Type VIIB's.  This is one more flaw with the Amati kit which has the 20mm and the watertight ammo container on the deck between the tower and the galley hatch.  I was considering using the Amati photoetch along with the Revell kit to model an early VIIB like U-45, but it seems like this would require some major modifications to the brass deck.

Thanks again for your help!

Offline dougie47

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #6 on: 25 Jan , 2009, 12:09 »
Hi Mr. Bill,

Ah, the Amati kit! I wrote an article years ago listing the shortcomings of the kit, with about 100 inaccuracies noted. The Amati kit became instantly redundant upon the release of the Revell kit. If you want an early VIIB just use the Revell VIIC and convert.

I agree that the Amati deck doesn't fit on the Revell kit.

The Amati tower looks okay. But when one lays the Amati tower on the Revell kit, the tower looked a bit small to me. That is my memory of it, anyway. Now I don't have any of the Amati kit parts to check.

Cheers,

Dougie
 

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jan , 2009, 20:20 »
Hello Dougie,

Many thanks for your assistance.  Your articles on U-47, flood vents, and colours are excellent. I would very much like to see your article on the Amati kit, can you send it to me or tell me where it is posted? 

I fully agree that the Revell kit has rendered the Amati kit obsolete, but I think it may actually be better, faster, and easier to use the Revell kit along with the Amati brass deck to model a fairly accurate early VIIB boat.  After making a side by side comparison with the Revell deck parts, I was surprised to discover that the Amati deck would fit nicely onto the Revell hull.  Other than the area around the 88 deck gun, there are no gaps between Amati brass deck and the edge of Revell hull.  The brass deck does sit too low, but can easily be raised with strip styrene to make a flush fit.  It also seemed better to convert the Revell tower rather than modify the Amati resin tower.

In addition to the incorrect aft deck watertight container (discussed earlier), one other problem (as you already know) with the Amati brass deck is the center line ventilation duct on the conning tower deck.  Rather than convert the Revell deck, I decided to try and correct the problems with the Amati brass.  The Amati photo etch brass is very heavy and extremely difficult to cut, but I managed to carefully remove the incorrect watertight container section and replace it with a portion of the galley hatch which has to be removed anyway in order to use the separate galley hatch part.  The conning tower deck correction involved drilling several tiny holes in the blank ventilation duct space and then trying to square the holes to match the surrounding details.  Due to the thickness of the brass this was very difficult.  The results are not perfect, but acceptable. 

Rather than try to correct the Amati kit resin tower, I decided to modify the Revell parts using the Amati kit as a guide.  As you know, the VIIB tower is smaller in length and width compared to the VIIC so it is necessary to reduce the Revell tower parts in both dimensions.  I did compromise with the round vent holes on the sides of the tower by using the Amati brass parts with some modifications.  The size, pattern, and number of holes on the Amati kit are not correct, but I could not think of a better alternative.

After making these modifications and test fitting the parts, I was very pleased with the results so far.  More finishing work on the conning tower and deck is needed, but I think it will work.  I need help with the details on the inside of the conning tower for an early VIIB, especially the periscope housing (which seems very different than the VIIC) and the size/pattern of the wood slats which I think are very different from the later VIIB boats. Maybe these were totally absent at the time of commissioning?   Do you have any photos or diagrams of the inside of an early type VIIB tower?

Using your excellent articles, the Revell hull parts can be modified to match an early VIIB.  I see only one real problem and that involves the 19 flood vent holes in the lower row on the port side.  There is no space on the kit part to add the required two extra vents without cutting away and reshaping the forward part of saddle tank.  I think I will compromise on this detail and have just the 17 flood vents rather than attempt major surgery on the kit parts. 

One other detail I am uncertain about involves the missing three flood vents that follow the curve of the after part of the saddle tanks.  Although these three vents appear on later VIIB and VIIC boats, I am not sure if they correct for an early VIIB.  My reason for this is a photo on page 16 of TYPE VII U-BOATS by Robert Stern.   The photo shows an early VIIB prior to launching which does not have the three holes.  Do you think this is correct or am I missing something here?

Thanks for your help,

Mr. Bill
 
« Last Edit: 26 Jan , 2009, 20:54 by Mr. Bill »

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jan , 2009, 20:42 »
I added eight photos to the gallery section "On the Bench" showing the Amati brass deck test fitted to the Revell hull and the comparisons of the modified Revell tower and resin Amati tower.  I'm not sure why, but I can see only one of the photos in the gallery unless I click on "My Images" and then they all appear, but only my photos?  I may have done something wrong, so please let me know if I need to do something else with these photos.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: 26 Jan , 2009, 20:56 by Mr. Bill »

Offline Greif

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #9 on: 27 Jan , 2009, 00:33 »
Hi Mr. Bill, I only saw one picture in the gallery.  The deck in that picture looked like it will fit just fine.  I can't comment on the Amati kit as I have not built it. 

Not sure what you could have done wrong when posting your photos.  Have you tried to post them in this thread using the "Additional Comments" button?  That may work.

Offline Rokket

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #10 on: 27 Jan , 2009, 00:52 »
Hopefully pic posting is all OK now, let us know...
AMP - Accurate Model Parts - http://amp.rokket.biz

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #11 on: 27 Jan , 2009, 11:31 »
Hello everyone and thanks for your help.  All of the photos now appear in the gallery under "On The Bench" and I have added a description and comments for each photo.  If you have any questions or comments, please let me know.

Regards,

Mr. Bill




Offline Siara

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #12 on: 27 Jan , 2009, 12:20 »
Mr Bill- im impressed. :o

Its going to be lovely conversion.

Regarding your problems with correct hole pattern on the side of the CT- ive posted the comment there with possible fix.
Hope it helps.

Offline Greif

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #13 on: 27 Jan , 2009, 14:10 »
Hi Mr. Bill,

I think the deck will work just fine.  The build should be pretty interesting and fun!

Offline dougie47

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Re: Early Type VIIB Deck Question
« Reply #14 on: 27 Jan , 2009, 14:54 »
Hi Mr. Bill,

Great work, you are doing very well with your model. I really like how you have altered the brass tower floor, and made it fit into the new tower.

The best photo I have for inside tower is -



Note that the wooden slats are smaller (and with rounded edges on the top) than on later boats. That shows the attack persicope housing too. The following shows the 20mm mount -



The photo of page 16 of Stern...I do know this photo. One day I thought, where the hell are the slots near the props? Then it occured to me that they might not have cut them out yet! The boat isn't finished.

I'll post the article in bits in the next few posts. It is an old article and I haven't updated it at all. I gave up listing more inaccuracies when the Revell kit was released!

Cheers,

Dougie