Revell IXc 1/72

[GlennCauley]

There seems to be NO details on what the new CMK sets will contain... aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhhh   
I am *really* hoping they will have a 105 deck gun in one of the weapons conversion sets... and maybe the basis for a flakvierling (quad) so I don't have to pilfer it from the S-100 kit.  Again.   
As a head's up... the Griffon PE sets for the VIIC/41 give really nice cannons and other details.  Especially the 37 auto-cannon... it's beautiful.

Yup, I'M the "little birdy" that made mention of an Archer rivet & weld set for the Type IXC.    Archer and I worked our collective a$$es off to make the VIIC set; it took a LOT of time & effort.  However, I heard the sales of the rivet set did not justify the effort or retail price.    As such, the drive for making other such rivet sets for other kits (Type II, Type IXC) kinda died.   I really don't want to spend the time & effort again. Maybe Archer has other ideas and would consider it, but the set won't be designed by me.   Sowwy.   

Rivets & welds are available from Archer and other sources like Micro-Mark, but they are generic and you'd be on your own.

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Glenn
 
Yup twas you, I didn't want to mention you in case you wanted a quiet life away from the begging letters  .
I think if CMK or WEM don't do a 10.5cm they will be missing the (U)boat 
I keep thinking about the 10.5cm with a turm IV, not sure, but with a bit of artistic license, it certainly had the 10.5cm with what looks like a turm II, or how about one of the monsun type IXCs without looking it up I think there were 2, they might have had turm IV and retained there 10.5cm.
 
Hi all
 
Bare in mind that this model is the first detailed 1:150 or larger (what about the Academy type IXB? I said detailed!) mass market type IX at a reasonable price, from what I can tell it seems to be selling well, and has been available for less than 2 months, for those that remember, how long was it before the type VII accessory parts started arriving?
I think the accessory will be on a par with the type VII eventually.
I'm pretty sure that Dougie is up to a repeat of his marvelous the wolf pack, no pressure then Dougie.
So all I think we will see some fine boats before the end of the year.
 
Regards
Jon
 

[GlennCauley]

Nah, I have no problem saying "No" if I really don't have the time and/or gumption to do something.   

During a refit, I really wonder how things progressed.  Like.... did they put guns on before doing the railings... were the railings pre-fabricated & shipped in to be welded in place or were they fabricated onsite... what sort of winch/crane would they use to lift the 105 deck gun... that sort of thing.   

[dougie47]

Hi Glenn and Jon,

Apparently when the Turm IV was fitted they would remove the entire tower and replace it with a pre-fabricated Turm IV.

For the deck gun I know of a picture of U 47 with the deck gun removed and suspended by a crane. You know the bolt heads on the plate at the bottom of the deck gun (where the plate meets the wooden deck)? They simply unscrewed the bolts and lifted off the deck gun by crane. I'm sure they would have done this with the 105mm.

I'm thinking they would probably have removed the 105mm before they changed the tower to a Turm IV (but maybe they could have done the Turm first).

Deck gun removal was authorised on 27 June 1943, just before or near the time when Turm IIs were being changed to Turm IVs.

However, in Roessler's "The U-Boat" (very good book) it is said that "some large U-boats retained their 10.5cm gun". So I suppose it must have been possible for some IXs to have a Turm IV and 10.5cm gun. Sorry but I don't know which boats and can't recall photos with this combination. 

Cheers,

Dougie

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Dougie, Glenn et al
 
The large U-boat would tie in with the idea of the boats destined for the Indian Ocean (type IXD2 mostly) to have deck guns. It would appear there were 3 sizes of gun mountings, main deck gun (8.8 & 10.5cm) large secondary 3.7cm sk / 3.7cm M42/43/zwilling & 2cm vierling) and small 2cm single/zwilling. guns of same size (stud pattern mount could be interchanged quickly) e.g. physical replacement of the 2cm vierling with the 3.7cm M42 would probably take a few hours, no doubt the bureaucracy took a lot longer  .
 
If the turm IV was a prefabricated item this changes my original thoughts on the timeline. I've always thought that the original turm stays and the new wintergarden was built around it. By removing the originally turm, ironically that would speed up replacement and allow any improvement to the turm to be built in.
 
Regards
Jon

[SG]

I dont  know about the IX C boats retaining the 105 gun w turm IV but I just found this picture showing the combination turm IV and 3.7cm SK C/30U gun. U-515, enjoy:
 
   

[falo]

@ Capt Kremin and @ Glen

Allright, if I ever built the ixc I will use random welds and rivets. Thanks for the info. Maybe your information advantage is the reason why I'am only a Midshipman Cadet and you guys are Ensign or Ldt Cdr.


@ Glen
I have purchased the Archer-Transfer sheet for the VII a while ago as a gift for a friend and in three words: thanks great work.

Regards
falo

[GlennCauley]

It seems that the write-up at the start of the Revell instructions are incorrect about U-505.   I would more trust the research done by dougie, and posted earlier in this thread.

Revell:
"In the spring of 1943, during modifications, U 505 received tower III with a large conning tower. The top platform was equipped with two 20mm twin-barrelled anti-aircraft guns. On the lower platform the 37mm anti-aircraft gun from the after deck was mounted. The 105mm surface/surface gun was removed."

• This is supposedly referring to refit 5X (Dec 1942 - Jun 1943)
• The new tower was not a Turm III, it was a Turm IV.     U-505 never had a Turm III tower, it went from Turm II to Turm IV.
• The gun on the lower platform was not a 37mm gun from the afterdeck... it was a 20mm flakvierling (quad).    The original 37mm gun was likely removed in Aug-Oct 1942 during refit 4X.   The last 37mm fully automatic gun (37mm M42U in LM42U housing) was not installed until refit 12X in Nov-Dec 1943.   That 37mm gun was on the boat when it was captured, and still resides on the boat in the museum.

[dougie47]

Hello guys,

Nice shot of U 515 with the 37mm on the foredeck, thanks SG.

Glenn, I think Revell got their "Turm III" idea from here -

http://www.tehnoart.eu/u-boot-ix-c-u-505-.html

For the timeline I have been able to make a few changes. This is the current one, subject to revision if necessary -







The main change is to do with the fitting of the Turm II and Turm IV.

When trying to do timelines, the first thing I do is to try to collect as many photos of the boat as possible. There are only a few wartime shots of U 505 and that is why this has proved so difficult. Once I have the photos, I then put them in three categories -

1 - photos when I know the date for certain.
2 - photos where I think I know the date.
3 - photos where I don't have a clue about the date.

Next is primary material - ie the KTBs. The info in these can generally be relied upon (except when it comes to ships hit and their tonnage). Then I look at the patrol dates, which I think can be relied upon.

Lastly I look at secondary material in books. Some books are better than others and often the info in books will prove to be slightly wrong. As for the dates in the photo captions, I always remain sceptical (except for one or two books that are superb).

The photo with U 505 with the Turm II is key to this. We can be sure of the following with this photo -

1 - It is U 505 (axe emblem)
2 - Due to the crowds waving it must show U 505 departing on a patrol (or perhaps returning). The crew wouldn't wave like that if it was for a practice dive in the harbour.
3 - The boat has a Turm II (the two rectangles below the upper platform are air intake ventilation holes that were there on the Turm II - the holes weren't there on Turm IV)
4 - The boat doesn't have a Vierling.

But when was it taken?

Hunt and Kill is an excellent book but I'm sure the date on the caption is wrong. Due to the absence of wintergarten in patrol 4, the Turm II HAS to have been fitted later (Turm II must surely be fitted in 5X) so the caption date in Hunt & Kill cannot be correct. It has surely got to show the boat departing or returning from the aborted patrols 5 or 6.
 
Hunt and Kill says that Turm IV was fitted in 5X, which I also think is wrong. I initially believed this because of the quality of the authors involved in the book and their access to the boat's KTBs. But I think they have seen the photo of the Turm II and though it must be a Turm IV (an easy mistake to make unless you really study the differences). When they learned that the tower was replaced in 5X I think they assumed it must have been a Turm IV that was fitted in 5X.

Now that I have been able to study the Turm II photo properly I've noticed two more things. Firstly the 37mm on the aft deck. I think Jon thought, like I did, that it could have been a man since the shape is a bit suspect. But I can see now that it is a 37mm but it doesn't have the same mount that the boat had when commissioned. The new mount is conical shaped, much like the mount we see in 20mm.

Lastly, the paint colour when the boat had a Turm II. Looking very closely there are two small vessels at the top right hand corner. If they are Kriegsmarine vessels (I think they might be) then their superstructure is in Hellgrau 50 and hull in Dunklegrau 51. The upper colour of U 505 is the same as the hull of the two vessels, which would suggest U 505 was Dunkelgrau 51 at that time.

I apologise for putting erroneous info in my last timeline, and indeed if any details in the current timeline may need changed if new info comes to light. Its the best I can do with the material we have.

Cheers,

Dougie

[GlennCauley]

Thank you so much for keeping on top of this, Dougie!!!   

I sure DO NOT intend to stir any pots when it comes to this... I just had read the Revell instructions and mentally compared it to your own timeline which I trust MUCH more.

I'm filling in some unrelated gaps in this story, like the rank changes of Zschech, the different radars, etc.

[GlennCauley]

A reply to my inquiry about upcoming CMK detail sets for the Type IX:

"Hello,  thank you for your interest in our future products.   Considering your question, exterior sets are not designed, yet.  But you can expect to find in these sets parts that will enhance the exterior - railings, antennae, periscope, etc.   Weapon set will contain highly detailed double 20mm and 40mm cannons. Weapon Conversion will contain 105mm gun, double 40mm and some 20mm cannons.   All the sets will be announced in advance at our site and on modeller website.     If you have any other question, just let me know.    Best regards, Jan Hajicek, Admin, www.cmkkits.com"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I inquired if they meant "37mm cannon" instead of "40mm cannon" and I am awaiting the reply.

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Glenn,
 
Nice one! why guess when you can ask. You got more than I managed in November. Looks like you're getting your 10.5cm, as you say the 40mm would have to be 3,7cm (please twin M43 DLM42, 3.7cm sk C32 and C36)
 
Regards
Jon

[dougie47]

Hello guys,

Jon (Capt Kremin) has kindly sent me the direct quotes from Hans Groebeler's Steel Boats, Iron Hearts. This has proved a VERY big help to try to solve the timeline puzzles.
 
 "By late May of 1943, the modifications and repairs on our boat were almost complete. Gone are the large gangs of shipyard workers in their thick brown welder's suits. Only a few technicians were to be still found aboard finishing some small details. U-505 sported a totally new silhouette. We were especially excited to stand on the spacious Wintergarten, with its deadly looking quad barreled flak gun. Combined with the two twin-barreled 20mm guns on either side of the conning tower, our new boat now boasted a total of eight 20mm guns for anti-aircraft defense. At least now, we thought, we would have a fighting chance against any enemy birds trying to drop an egg on us."
 
 "On July 1, U-505 was moved to a wet dock in the bunkers. With her new and much larger conning tower and fresh coat of dark grey paint, she was unrecognizable as the same boat that had limped into harbor more than six months earlier."
 
 Already quoted page 137 about only loading 37mm ammunition.
 
 After patrol 6 page 145, quote "For the next two weeks, our boat underwent repairs. They also replaced our huge four-barreled anti-aircraft gun with a newly designed single barreled Oerlikon 37mm automatic cannon.

These quotes are very specific and I believe Jon is right that the dates of the Turm IV fitting can be relied upon. I previously thought that the "well wishers" photo showed U 505 departing or returning from patrol. Its a classic Das Boot style departure, with everyone urging them good hunting. However, just because it looks like a departure does not make this certain. Given Hans' infomation it is appears that U 505 never went on patrol with a Turm II and the "well wisher" photo simply shows them on a refresher training or test dive. The crowd might not have known it wasn't a war patrol and so waved to the crew, who naturally waved back.

This timeline is, as always, subject to change if new info comes to light, but where we're at now is for refit 5X to have the following -

1 - Major repairs from Hudson attack

2 - Change from Turm 0 to Turm II

3 - Test run with Turm II (when the "well wishers" photo was taken

4 - Change from Turm II to Turm IV and change to darker grey

I've done more research into the dates when Turm II and Turm IV were fitted and the new timeline (with both Turms being fitted in 5X) does seem to fall nicely into the dates when Turms were changed. By the way, there is very good info on this in U-Boot im Focus 9.

Hopefully we're getting there now...only the 37mm to go. Hans' date for the change from Vierling to 37mm is refit 7X (mid-to-late July). This is the part that concerned me because it doesn't accord with the dates in books. According to Eberhard Rössler in his excellent The U-Boat: The Evolution And Technical History Of German Submarines, the 37mm automatic was ordered on the 15th October 1943. In Robert C Stern’s Type VII U-Boats, the author asserts that that the 37mm automatic “finally began” to be fitted in November 1943, with 18 boats (probably 18 Type VIICs, don't know how many IXs) being fitted by the start of December. If this information is correct then the most likely fitting date for the 37mm on U 505 would be refit 12X (08/11/43 to 20/12/43).
However, I am beginning to agree with Jon that Hans might be right about the mid-July fitting date. Firstly there would probably have been experiments made before the 15th October order and there is no reason why U 505 could not have trialed the 37mm. Secondly, there is a photo of U 707 on 12th October with the 37mm. Okay, thats only three days before the order but the precedent is there for boats going on patrol before the 37mm was actually ordered. I think I'll let you guys decide when it was fitted, I think a plausible argument could be made for 7X.

The Balcongerat should be added to the timeline. Assuming U 505 wasn't the IXC which trialed it (don't think so), then perhaps it was fitted in 1944? Perhaps during refit 14X?
Cheers,
Dougie
PS - A big thank you to Jon for the quotes and other info.




 

[scottnegron]

Hello again friends:)!
Thought I'd post a few comments after working on the Tehnoart kit, and researching U-505 the past year.  I got one of the 11 they sold as kits (they usually only do fully built display models).  I also got the only cut-bow (U-525) kit they sold as a kit.  Truly remarkable models!  The only short coming is the PE railing and some deck gun parts (which are 2-D of course).  I have it completed except for the railings, which I'm scratch building with brass rod and resistance soldering.
I contacted Margaret (curator of U-505 museum) with some questions.  She passed me over to Steve Rosengarden, who unfortunately passed away last year (calm seas Steve).  Steve took some measurments for me.

• There are 2 thickness of railing, 5cm and 3.5cm (1:1 scale).  This corresponds to .030 and .020 in 1/72, I'm using K&S brass rod.  All seem to be 5cm, except the lower rung of the wintergarten.

• The torpedo tube flood holes should NOT have the tiny bars added to them, that was definately a post war addition.  There are clear pics during capture with the bow sticking up out of the water that don't show them (cover of Hunt and Kill has a nice shot).
• Color photos seem to indicate 58.1 bow and 58.2 tower.  Unfortunately WEM doesn't make blauschwartz.  I used Snyder & Short Kreigsmarine WWII Ship colors, Set 2 to custom mix 58.2.  I don't recall the eaxct ratio but nailed it with a mix of Vallejo Model Color 70.899 (dark prussia blue) and 70.950 (black).  I did notice the WEM 58.1 is a little lighter than the S&S paint sample (maybe part of any confusion), which compares very nicely to the color pics of U-505 and U-805.

I'll try and take and post some pics later of the cut down bow resin and PE, and ask Dmitrij if he's willing to make another run of them, as well as more guns, etc.  U-525 aslo comes with a schnorkel!The brass propellers, capstans, bollards, anchors and a ton of other parts are exquisite.  I got another set of each for my VIIC/41!
Happy Modeling!

Scott
 

[dougie47]

Hi Scott,

Regarding the bars over the vents near torpedo doors, they were definitely on wartime boats. I've looked at wartime shots showing IX bows close up (U 41, U 67, U 107, U 128, 181 and three more unidentified) and the bars were there in all eight of them.

Although they are not vivible in Hunt & Kill cover, they are only visible in close up shots. How far away was the photographer who took the capture photos?

The bars were there before U 505 made her transit to Chicago.

A cut down bow kit would be very nice.

Cheers,

Dougie