AMP - Accurate Model Parts
General Modeling => General Model Discussion => Topic started by: kklee6 on 05 Jan , 2010, 19:05
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Hi, everyone.
I am new here since I have only recently discovered this forum when I placed order of some U-boat items in AMP (yeah, I am going to start my huge project of building the revell 1:72 U-boat and maybe thinking of converting it to R/C too).
I have recently finished, or almost finished building my 1st sub model. It's a Nichimo 1:200 I-19 sub.
I did a little weatherng by washing the upper hull with some darker paint but lower dull red hull still looks too 'clean' to me. I have learnt from some old posts here that maybe I can add a filter to the lower hull.
Any suggestion of what filter color should I use? Any other suggestion of weathering a dull red hull in a sub would also be appreciated.
Thanks.
KK
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Welcome to AMP.
Your I-19 looks great! What is the long bump in front of the CT for?
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Welcome to AMP KK.
Nice sub.
For lower part of the hull i would use different shades of red, pink, white, grey, and hue of green.
Are you familiar with the hairspray technique?
Related articles:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/527528/message/1176229975/Whitewash (http://www.network54.com/Forum/527528/message/1176229975/Whitewash)
http://plastic-bbq.blogspot.com/2009/05/playing-around-with-hairspray-technique.html (http://plastic-bbq.blogspot.com/2009/05/playing-around-with-hairspray-technique.html)
http://migjimenez.blogspot.com/2009/11/hairspray-technique-vol1.html (http://migjimenez.blogspot.com/2009/11/hairspray-technique-vol1.html)
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Hello and welcome to the forum kklee6! I agree with Simon, your I-19 is a nice build. To answer your question, I need to explain the differences between filters and washes. Forgive me if you already know this. A filter is used to subtly alter the tone of the base color, while a wash is used to bring out detail by creating fake shadows. Fliters are best applied to matt surfaces; washes work best when applied to gloss surfaces. If your goal is to bring out detail and give the hull more of a 3D look, then a wash is the best technique. Both dark green and black work well on red. If you have filters, like the ones from MIG Productions for example, and are willing to do a bit more work you could use the filter to "fade" the paint, giving it a worn look. After that you could then apply a wash to bring out the detail. The neat thing here is that filters give the model a satin gloss finish which is critical to applying washes effectively. A reddish-brown colored filter would work well on a red hull.
Ernest
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Thank you for all of your compliments, especially from Siara. I have become a big fan of yours after reading your U-552 building blog.
Actually, I would like to reproduce some sort of paint fading effect ,as mentioned by Greif, due to submerging in salty sea-water. I also remember Siara's mentioning about using filter to simulate this effect in his blog. That is why I asked about the use of filter. However, those filters are not locally available. I have to order them online or to explore other means to do the weathering. I believe I will follow the links to explore different methods. Thank you very much.
Simon, the bump was for launching the reconnaissance seaplane "Glen" aboard the sub I-19.
The Nichimo kit comes with a tiny seaplane but I have not yet started building it.
During WWII, Japanese subs, like I-400s, also carried fighters and bombers.
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a few more photos
It works ;D
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I have been using MIG-s filters, aswell as oils from Abtailung range for the while now, and my conclusion is- get the oils, and turpentine from MIG, and make your own filters.
It will be cheaper, and it will allow you to make your own color.
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I have been using MIG-s filters, aswell as oils from Abtailung range for the while now, and my conclusion is- get the oils, and turpentine from MIG, and make your own filters.
It will be cheaper, and it will allow you to make your own color.
Siara: A question about MIG filters. I seem to remember reading somewhere that some (All) of them are only for use on acrylic paint. Is this so?
Don
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I have discovered that those filters, washes and oils are available locally,
so I will experiment with the filters and the hair-spray techniques (as recommended by Siara) to weather the lower hull of my boat.
As for applying filters, it is suggested, in MIG's web, that a uniform thin layer should be applied on the top of base color. Is there any other techniques or skills that I should be aware of?
Sorry for asking too many questions. This is my first attempt to use filters.
Regards,
KK
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Hi KK, you want to apply filters to a matt painted surface; most acyrlic paints used by modellers are matt when sprayed. If the surface is gloss, semi-gloss, or satin, spray it first with a matt varnish - there are a lot on the market and they all work well. It you painted you model with acrylics I recommend you use an acrylic-based matt varnish. Lacquer-based varnishes sometimes react poorly when sprayed over acyrlic finishes. Once you have your matt finish it is important to apply filters with a damp brush that will not leave a pool of filter at the beginning or end of a brush stroke. Filter coats should be very light as you can build them up with successive coats to achieve the desired effect. Allow the filter to completely dry between coats; you can speed up drying with a blow dryer set to low power. Thats it, not hard really, just go slow and look at each coat to see if it is giving you the look you want. One of the hardest things about weathering is knowing when to stop, and it is easy to overdo it. Don't ask me how I know this. :-[
Ernest
I have discovered that those filters, washes and oils are available locally,
so I will experiment with the filters and the hair-spray techniques (as recommended by Siara) to weather the lower hull of my boat.
As for applying filters, it is suggested, in MIG's web, that a uniform thin layer should be applied on the top of base color. Is there any other techniques or skills that I should be aware of?
Sorry for asking too many questions. This is my first attempt to use filters.
Regards,
KK
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Greif, thank you sooo... much for your detailed explanation.
I used Gunze hull red, which is Lacquer-based satin paint, for the lower hull, so I believe I could spray a acrylic or lacquer matt varnish on top of it. Once I get the filters, I will give it a try.
BTW, I am thinking of getting P241 or P242. Any comments?
KK
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Hi KK, I have never used a filter over red before, so take this for what it is worth. I think P242 would give you a good fading effect. However, I recommend trying it out on a piece of scrap, sprayed the same color as you hull, first. That way you can both confirm the filter is in fact the shade/color you need to do the job and you can practice a bit.
You are correct that you can chose either a lacquer or acrylic based matt varnish to spray the hull with. When using different paints a safe order for them to be sprayed is: Lacquers, enamels, acrylics. A general rule when airbrushing different types of paint to follow is: "Acrylic over enamel/lacquer based paints nearly foolproof, never enemal/lacquer over acrylic."
Ernest
Greif, thank you sooo... much for your detailed explanation.
I used Gunze hull red, which is Lacquer-based satin paint, for the lower hull, so I believe I could spray a acrylic or lacquer matt varnish on top of it. Once I get the filters, I will give it a try.
BTW, I am thinking of getting P241 or P242. Any comments?
KK
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Not much to be added, after good explanation by Ernest.
I always, almost exclusively use acrylics for the base coat, as it gives strong base to work with. Do not forget to use the primer first tho!
I sometimes use enamels over the acrylics, but i first make sure the acrylic coat is 100 % dry.
Its good to experiment on the bit of scrap plastic first, as different brands sometimes interact with each other, and its hard to predict the reaction. Usually it looks more scary than it actually is.
I have never had problems with oils, or MIG filters (by saying MIG filters i mean SIM Industries filters, which are marked as MIG product).
You have to be carefull with the varnish tho, as some of the brands are difficoult to work with under certain humidity conditions, and can turn milky.
Im using Tamiya acrylic varnish, and Hannants one with good effect.
Good luck. ;)
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Im using Tamiya acrylic varnish, and Hannants one with good effect.
Good luck. ;)
Siara, thanks for your additional advice.
By Tamiya acrylic varnish, are you referring to X21 or X22?
X21 looks very very "matt" to me.
BTW, you mentioned about the "hair-spray" technique. Can I use any hair-spray, or is there any hair-spray which does not work?
Many thanks.
KK
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You can use any hairspray on the market.
For best results its good to "decan" the hairspray, and use the airbrush to lay the hairspray layer.
It allows for nice, and controllable aplication. The thicker the hairspray layer- the bigger the chips will become.
To decan the hairspray, just spray it into the glass (any kitchen glass) covering the top with the palm of your hand.
By Tamiya acrylic varnish, are you referring to X21 or X22?
Thats right- one is the gloss varnish, and the other is the matt agent- which is added to X21 to dull the shine. X22 its not used on its own. ;)
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Thanks, Siara.
Just got the P242 at HK$55 (=4.9 Euro), not cheap but affordable.
Will experiment the filter and "hair-spray" technique on a piece of plastic.
Hopefully, I can post some photos of my "experiment" tomorrow.
One more question about model paints.
A local dealer has recently imported the "LifeColor" acrylic paints. They have those U-boot colors Hellgrau 50 and Schiffsbodenfarbe III Grau on the list. Are those colors good to use and "reasonably accurate" ?
Thanks.
KK
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Hi KK, I use Lifecolor paints almost exclusively and can confirm their uboot colors are very very accurate, as are their Luftwaffe colors. If I may, I recommend not getting too wrapped up in trying to absolutely match historical colors. In real life, the shading of colors varied a good deal based mainly on weathering and partly on application. The only time any ship, vehicle or plane looked like the one next to it was right after they were painted in the factory. And come to think of it, I don't think that even applies to uboots as most were not built in factory like conditions. After operating at sea for any period of time exceeding a week or so, the shade each uboot's paint job was altered by the elements, some more then other depending on a variety of factors. So in the modelling world, close is good enough, IMHO that is.
Ernest
Thanks, Siara.
Just got the P242 at HK$55 (=4.9 Euro), not cheap but affordable.
Will experiment the filter and "hair-spray" technique on a piece of plastic.
Hopefully, I can post some photos of my "experiment" tomorrow.
One more question about model paints.
A local dealer has recently imported the "LifeColor" acrylic paints. They have those U-boot colors Hellgrau 50 and Schiffsbodenfarbe III Grau on the list. Are those colors good to use and "reasonably accurate" ?
Thanks.
KK
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Thank you, Ernest.
Your answer is good enough for me to get hold of some LifeColor paints.
Here in Hong Kong, most modelers use Gunze Lacquer paints (maybe most of them build Japanese kits, esp. Gundam's) but they are very toxic. The thinner smells very badly.
Tamiya acrylic is the next popular paint, however the varieties of color are quite limited.
The newly imported LifeColor caught my attention because of the Kreigsmarine WWII sets.
KK
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You welcome KK,
here are a couple of pointers about using Lifecolors paints. Make sure you stir the paint well before use. I prime my models before painting as I have found Lifecolor paints adhere better to a primed surface. I use the white Tamiya primer decanted for use in my airbrush. The paints brush well; like most acrylics, it is better to build thin coats rather then trying to cover everything with one thick caot of paint. I have found two to three coats do the job depending on the underlying color. Small parts can be covered with one coat of paint.
When airbrushing I use the Lifecolor thinner to thin the paint, you can also use distilled or plain water. However, the thinner has a small amount of retarder in it which prevents the paint from drying too fast and makes airbrushing easier. As with brush painting, it is better to spray several thin coats; I normally spray 4 to 5 coats. You can do this quickly as the paint drys very rapidly. It is very important to use lower air pressure when airbrushing Lifecolor paints. I have found 10-15 psi gives the best results. To clean up I use Windex window cleaner followed by distilled water. About every 5th cleaning I use Lifecolor Cleaner; this stuff really gets any dryed paint off! I follow that by spraying distilled water through my airbrush as normal. By the way, once dry the paint is dry Lifecolor thinner will not remove it. It takes the paint about 12-24 hours to cure, depending on humidty. Thats pretty normal for all acrylics.
Hope you enjoy the paint and if you have any other questions feel free to ask.
Ernest
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Ernest.
The information really helps new Lifecolor user like me a lot.
Just one quick question:
When airbrushing, what is the ratio of thinner to paint?
KK
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Hi KK, I thin mine 60:40 paint to thinner.
Ernest
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Anyone ever use Mr Surfacer as a prime coat? My mate has with good results, but always interested in more info.
Hairspray - OK, just how does the chip effect work?
Thanks
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Anyone ever use Mr Surfacer as a prime coat? My mate has with good results, but always interested in more info.
Hairspray - OK, just how does the chip effect work?
Thanks
Most modeler, including me, here uses Mr. Surface, both the spray can and bottle, but again it's lacquer-based, and therefore very toxic.
Many says it's finer than Tamiya's primer but I have never tried Tamiya's and can't comment on it.
Regards,
KK
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Hi Wink, I have used Mr. Surfacer 1200 as a primer. As KK points out it has to be thinned with lacquer thinner which makes for quite the stink as you know. It is very fine and adheres very well to plastic that has been prepped by cleaning, in common with all primers. I like the Tamiya primer as I think it is just as fine and does not have quite the same level of fumes.
Ernest
Anyone ever use Mr Surfacer as a prime coat? My mate has with good results, but always interested in more info.
Hairspray - OK, just how does the chip effect work?
Thanks
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Tried my first use of filter.
Interesting product and I believe I have gotten the effect I want.
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I have my own boat and hang around boatyards a lot, even travelling to places like Portsmouth Naval Yard, Philadelphia Naval Yard, etc. to look at ships and there's a couple of things I rarely, if ever see on models.
The first one is that almost ALL ships develop a scum of algae at the waterline and for the first 1/2 meter or so below the waterline. This is usually a dark green in colour, with hints of brown and perhaps a little tint of ochre. It's thickest right at the water edge and thins out as it goes down. It's also almost absent on parts that are not accesible to sunlight, such as underneath the transom at the stern. Sometimes, if a boat has been tied up to the dock for a long time (say more than a couple of months), you actually start to get long streamers of algae, almost like grass, wafting in the current.
Another thing is that there's almost always streaks of lighter colour going veritcally downwards. I don't know what causes it, it looks almost like bird poop but it can't be under water. Don't overdo it, it's a very faint colouring but it's almost always present and noticeable.
Finally, in salt water boats, especially those based in warmer water, there are barnacles. They're random and usually rough in texture. They're almost always white but sometimes have a grass green sort of colour on top where a different kind of algae has grown on them. Often they leave raised rings where the creature has been rubbed off.