AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: NZSnowman on 02 Feb , 2009, 23:14
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While working on my deck of my U-boat I untaken a lot of research and ask a lot of questions and I wanted a way to say thanks everyone who help me. I learn a lot about deck layout arrangements for the VIIC/41, so I thought a good way to say thanks was to make a working drawing of the deck arrangements. This deck arrangements will not match the earlier boat but all the piping under the deck should be the same.
The PDF document contains several different layers to make viewing easier. These layers can be view all together or separately by selecting or deselecting layers within Adobe Reader. There are two versions, a full and lite version. The only different between the two is that I remain all the screw and bolts on the deck from the lite version (where are about 15,000 screw and bolts on the deck ;D) to help speed up the redrawing on older computer.
The drawing is in no way finish and need a lot more work on it. I want to add additional layers to it that include the Radio Aerial wires, Hand rails and a Lateral view. I am hope to post updates of the drawing when they are ready. The reason why I am put it on now, this that I would like some feedback on it.
You are welcome to download it and have a look. I only ask you one thing if some of you can post some feedback on it, as I would like to make it better and a useful modelling tool for future modeller.
Happy downloading ;D Simon
2nd February 2009
Version 1.0 ISIONLite version http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nzaizxwld3r (6.78MB)
DELETE Full version http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ty2zdkzzkz5 (11.45MB)
8th February 2009
Version 1.0 Full http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yuyiejl3nzf (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yuyiejl3nzf) (12.29 MB)
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/544/screen1ol8.jpg)
Fig. 1. Full view of working drawing.
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2640/screen2ad1.jpg)
Fig. 2. Close-up view of the hatch propeties.
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3464/screen4cn1.jpg)
Fig. 3. Close-up view without deck and hatches.
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/366/screen5zr7.jpg)
Fig. 4. Close-up view without deck and hatches remove but showing hatch locations and properties.
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Since I'm never statisfied with lite anything I down loaded the big file, took 2min on my netbook. Great work. I will use this when I get working on my first U-boat. After I finish my Gato of course.
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Hi Simon,
Looking very good and very detailed. Thanks for sharing with us.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hello Simon,
I found your efforts to be extremely impressive and want to express my sincere thanks for your contribution. I will definitely reference your work in my build of U-45 (progress report coming soon!).
Regards,
Bill Dunn (Mr. Bill)
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Thanks everyone for the feedback. It
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Thank you Simon! This is really, really nice!
Ernest
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Congrats on house, and sorry you have 2 big projects to manage at once!
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So have you picked out the right colour for the house? have you gone Dungelgrau or...?
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Have just downloaded and looked at it, really great - will be of huge assistance when I am going to scratch my innerhull on my VII C.
Thanks for sharing!
Cheers - and have fun doing 1:1 scale work ;D
Jan
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I have updated the working drawing today (only the full version, as it seen that most people are uploading this version). I have added the aft navigation light, forward hydroplane and cable tensioner system and made a list of references and resources used for the drawing. I have also added a few small changes to the hatch properties layers.
Happy viewing.
Version 1.1 http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yuyiejl3nzf (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yuyiejl3nzf) (12.29 MB)
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Warning Warning Warning
This information is for anyone who is using any version of my working drawing and a VIIC/41 model. I have just realise the bow metal plate is incorrect. It is short by 3.8 mm at 1:72 scale >:( The bow metal plate should start from frame #102. This error has come about as I forget that the bow is longer on the VIIC/41 :-[ and the internal bow plans I am using are for the VIIC. I am fixing this error right now and will post an updated within the next few days. Sorry :-* :-*
Warning Warning Warning
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Hi Simon,
version 1.1 of your plan is really nice. Thank you very much for sharing your hard wotk with others!
Sincerely,
Ernest
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Because I have to fix my mistake :-[ and thanks to Trierarch for a full high detail plan of the framing and ribbing layout ;D I will now correct all the framing and ribbing on my drawing so they will be 100% correct (You got to love 1/1000 of a mm drawing precision ;D). However, this will take sometime as I have to fixes or move +130 frames :o If anyone needs a copy of my plan before I finish the changes in one or two weeks please email me.
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still, a very worthwhile project I think - the result wil be vety useful and educational!
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Just a small update on the working drawing...I thought it would take only one or two weeks but as you can see it been four weeks so far :( I have still got about two or more weeks work to finish the framing, ribbing and hull layout. It has taking much long to check-move-recheck... all +200 frames and ribs. But I think it should be a useful resource when it finish ;)
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It will be an excellent resource, and time is..strange. Do not fret!
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Since I'm still working on my Gato I have time to wait. Great work your doing.
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Here another other small update on the Working Drawing...the drawing is starting to look very good.....so much information on it (maybe to much ;D) however I not spend as much time on it as I would like because of my new house, we (the builders ;) - I just clear up after them ;D ) are trying to get the roof on before this winter. So my time at the computer is limited. I have finish all the framing and ribbing. I am just look for about 5 or 6 more real measurement and then the whole hull, framing, ribbing & PH with be correct to the nearest 1 mm ;D
Has anyone see any measurement between the PH and hull at each end of the PH (the part that taper off) I have a central measurement of 750 mm between the keel and PH but I can not found any others?
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I'd think the Anatomay book would be useful in showing the taper, which would be a start, tho far from what you want...
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excellent drawings .top notch !cant wait to see more. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I just tried DL the drawing, and files are no more. Is there a working link to the drawings? ???
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Hi Siara, I will look into this and try to add a new file this week. As our internet at work is not working very well at the moment >:( >:(
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Thats good news Simon- one of the submarine model builders i know wanted to have look at the accurate drawings, and i recommended your work. Please let me know when you upload the files again, so i can pass the link to him. ;)
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Having real problems with the internet at the moment but will try to upload the PDF within the next few days.
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Hi Siara, Sorry for the wait. I just got home today. The internet is very slow at work :( I could only found an older PDF that is moment. I am hoping to have a huge update in about 2 months when my new house is finish and I can start using my big computer again :)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mzmgiz5itmf (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mzmgiz5itmf)
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I have started working on the working drawing again. I have redrawn the pressure hull and frames. The drawing is now base on original German measurement. I will continue adding more detail to the pressure hull. Below is a link to a preview of the new hull drawing.
http://www.mediafire.com/?zzz2tyyntym (http://www.mediafire.com/?zzz2tyyntym) (Pressure Hull.pdf - 527.02 KB)
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Hi Simon, the drawing is looking very, very good. Have you decided it you are going to sell some copies? If so, I will gladly buy one.
Ernest
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I will not be selling any copies of the Working Drawing as I will be giving them away to anyone how want a copy. It my way to say "Thank you" to anyone who help me over the last two years, answered my many questions and put up with me. I am hoping that maybe one day this drawing will help someone who is building a Type VII U-Boat.
At the moment this draw is a 1:34 scale as it come from my main drawing, but I think it would be more useful if I change to scale to 1:72 and maybe also show measurement in the 1:72 scale.
Also hoping to have a small surprise within the next month about my main drawing ;)
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I like the idea of 1/72 drawing Simon.
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Simon...1/72 sounds nice! I'd love to have one!
Bill
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Oh, that's wonderfully kind of you about the drawings. I'd love to have my name on that list also.
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I have started working again on the 'Working drawing' after finishing off the Engine Room Poster the other day. New drawing is base on original German measurements and includes correct steels thickness also. I have finish the Pressure Hull (remember this is Type VIIC/41 so the steel thickness is 21 mm not 16-22mm like all other Type VII
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Piping under the Deck
Here a small update on the piping under the decking. I have added the Main air inlet trunk, the Main valves for blowing of diving tanks 2 & 4; the diving tank 2 & 4 trunks and valves for blowing of diving tanks 3. There are fours layers within the drawing to play around with. Also added the ribbing and framing layout
http://www.mediafire.com/?jurva7l4vijprt8 (http://www.mediafire.com/?jurva7l4vijprt8)
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/576/screen1pgq.jpg)
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8751/screen2gf.jpg)
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Hello Simon,
great job thanks for sharing.
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very good stuff
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I have the modelbrass PE kit, and i am trying to find out the exact locations of the saddletank vents.
The only info i have is this, and i am not sure if this is correct:
(http://i56.tinypic.com/1zytp9v.jpg)
Are the locations of these vents the same on all type VII`s?
Karel
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Karel, to be honest I have only started doing so research on the saddle tank vents. There appear to be a large different between drawings I have seen (still looking and collecting photographs) in the number, size and orientation of the vents on the saddle tank.
If anyone know the location, Karel. I should be able from my drawing to give you measurements to where to place them base on the internal framing.
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Hi Karel,
Like Simon, I haven't researched the saddle tank manhole inspection covers fully. So I'd be happy to be correct about any of the following.
Great photos can be found on pages 88/89 of Lawrence Paterson's U 564 book "U-Boat War Patrol". P88 shows the bottom cover being taken off by a crewman with a spanner (a top and bottom cover needed to be removed to gain access to the bunker). P89 shows the bottom cover having been fully removed, with a crewman inside the bunker - a tight fit! The P88 photo shows the shape of the cover and the bolt head locations.
Another resource is page 2/3 of David Westwood's "The Type VII U-Boat". This shows U 69 on 19 Sep 1940 before launch. I think this photo shows two of the five covers were a different orientation to the other three. Below shows what I mean. Apologies for the quality - I drew this very quickly to show what I mean about orientation. I'm pretty sure about the orientation but not 100% sure.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/Graphic1.jpg)
There may have been differences in the shape of the covers. Wink thought that some of the U55X series was more rounded than the oval shape in the Modelbrass set. I think he is correct about this as a few photos do show a more rounded shape. Others are quite oval.
I know there are smaller sizes in the Modelbrass set but I don't think this is correct. I remember discussion about it when the Modelbrass set was being designed. I think it is just a difference in orientation.
By memory I think VIIBs had 3 covers per side, while VIICs had 5 covers per side.
Cheers,
Dougie
PS I think these items are manhole covers, with the actual vents being under the deck?
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Simon and Dougie, I'm so glad to hear you say that there seems to be differences between the different boats regarding all the inspection ports on the saddle tanks.
Not that I'm surprised, since there seems to be all sorts of differences in other areas too, but I thought I'd go nuts trying to find out where to put them on my boat.
Dougie's done some great work showing the different free flow holes depending on which shipyard the boat came from, so it makes me wonder if this was also something that varied more by yard than by time period or model of boat?
But it's been instructive learning that they were manhole covers for inspection. But why the different orientations? And does that mean there were ladders inside?
Also, since the vents were under the deck, where were the filling caps?
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Hi Pat,
Good point about the orientation, there would have to be a reason for making two of them different to the rest. Not sure why.
I'm not at all sure whether I am right about the orientation. See the image below
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U552_I2.jpg)
You can get a good idea of the shape of the nearest cover. But the cover that is farther back I'm not sure about. The three dots are in a different orientation to the three dots on the nearest cover, suggesting a 90 degress difference in orientation. But maybe the shape is different - does it look more rounded? What do you make of the shape?
Not sure about ladders...perhaps. There might be something inside to allow a man to move around.
I think you are right about the differences between yard, the variations between yards keep it intersting for us.
Cheers,
Dougie
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I would not think a ladders is not needed as it's only approximately 930mm drop to the pressure where you stand at the openings, plus there a network of framing within the saddle tanks to get a good foot holds. You would not want to fall the full distance to the bottom at approximately 2400mm.
Dougie, I am going to order U-Boat War Patrol from the UK but it going to be about three weeks, would it be possible to post the pictures from pages 88/89? While we on the subject about ordering books, does anyone know of a good online bookshops that they used to order rare books on U-boat. We have very few chooses in NZ? Also I ought to also ask before ordering, Dougie, is U-Boat War Patrol any good?
I am still getting my head around the saddle tanks cover, but are they all vents? Or are a few manholes, as most of the pictures I seen look like they are all vents :-\
I have only one week left of the ski season in NZ, then I have heap more time to start again with my drawing and research. High on my list of research this summer is these saddle tanks cover, and a few other things like the Schnorchel, deck layout, the FlaK guns and under deck piping system.
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Dougie, interesting picture and thoughts about the saddle tank covers.
I see 3 covers in thepicture though, not just 2. There's a 3rd cover at the right, just at the top of the white streak that might be some discolouration due to diesel fuel leaking out and making some of the paint flake off. It's oriented the same way as the middle cover and has the 3 dots going the same way as the middle cover.
And yes, the sahpe of those two covers looks different than the cover at the left. They seem rounder, not as much of a flattened ellipse.
As for the 3 dots, they seem strange but I'd guess they have something to do with how the cover is fastened to the hull plating, or how the fastening is unlocked. Perhaps there's a tool, like an allen key sort of thing, that fits into a socket in the dot and lets them turn? And when they're turned, they turn a lever inside that releases catches that hold the cover down? Sort of like the wheel on top of the main hatch of the conning tower, but not in place all the time for hydrodynamic reasons?
Perhaps 3 holes as the ones at either side something that the handle locks into for mechanical advantage while the centre one is where the tool sockets into?
It also looks for sure that these covers are slightly raised from the plating on the saddle tanks, as if they fit over a slightly smaller hole rather than get inset into a hole to be smooth on the outside.
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Pat, I think the 3 dots or three holes are bolt holes that hold the internal arm system for opening and closing the vents. From what I seen so far in pictures and going by the other driving tanks vents on the U-boat. The cover, withdraw back within the tanks to let the air out. That why I think you see photographs that the covers look reset in to the saddle tanks.
Also I believe, all the cover on a boat are the same size and shape, I think they like different as some are further away
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Hi gents,
Below are the two photos from Paterson's U 564 book.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U564_covers.jpg)
They might help with this discussion.
Another helpful photo is of U 93 on page 19 of Vom Original zum Model: VIIC. This shows U 93 without the covers, albeit from a distance.
Cheers,
Dougie
PS Simon, the U 564 book is fantastic, highly recommended for photos included throughout the book.
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Simon, the three holes connecting to an internal arms system inside the covers makes sense. I can see such an arm simply pivoting on the central hole, while the outer holes just raise and lower a set screw that locks the arm into place and thereby holds the cover closed.
I don't think the covers would be all the same size or shape though. Because of their different orientations, they would have to have different curvaturesto fit the slopes of the saddle tanks and therefore couldn't be interchangeable.
You're right that ladders wouldn't be a necessity because of the multiple frames inside the tanks. But unless the frames were cut out with purposeful footholds in specific places, it would be difficult to climb in and out since the frames and bulkheads are sometimes at odd angles. Have you ever tried climbing a framework that wasn't made for climbing but is possible to climb. It can be done, just not as easily or safely. So while not 100% necessary, ladders would just make it easier, so they may, or may not, be inside. That might be another shipyard specific variation. I could accept them either being installed or not being installed though. We don't think the same way they did during wartime urgency.
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NZSnowman, your work is amazing. :o :o
My English is not very good, but I tell you, THANK YOU!
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His work is excellent, and your English is very good!
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Here the latest version of my working drawing, the result of this summer works. I probable spend over 600 hours on this drawing this summer :) I don
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Here the link to the PDF.
http://www.mediafire.com/?85e0uxcrdgz2a8x (http://www.mediafire.com/?85e0uxcrdgz2a8x)
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Hi Simon,
Thanks for your dedication. You are well on your way to producing the definitive VIIC/41 schematic plan. In future years I'll bet every modeller uses it as their main resource. Once you are finished maybe you could do a VIIC or a VIIB? :)
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Simon,
Thanks for your dedication. You are well on your way to producing the definitive VIIC/41 schematic plan. In future years I'll bet every modeller uses it as their main resource. Once you are finished maybe you could do a VIIC or a VIIB? :)
Cheers,
Dougie
I was thinking the same thing the other day. I would be very easy to change it to a VIIC and likely only need a little work to change it to a VIIB.
I would also like to do a encyclopedia of drawings of all the different bridge & wintergarten layouts for all the Type VII's, would make a great book ;)
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Hmmm..good idea
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Hmmm..good idea
Indeed! I
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Ever thought of building a model Uboot Simon? I mean, with all that reference info you could make a great model!
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I think I would have the skills to build a model. As I am uses to working are very small things as part of summer job. I uses to make lots of models while I was a kid. However, I have zero painting skill :( I would need to pay someone to paint it for me.
Maybe after I finish the drawing I will build one ;D
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i know id love to see your build, no matter what the quality of painting, and i'm quite sure that even that would be excellent. By the way, are you planning to do the interior on your drawings too (sorry if you already said you would or not, i just could not find anything written about it) :)
regards,
Marko
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Yes I am also drawing the internal sections of the boat. I have complete 30% of the of this. In fact there really five main parts to the drawing. The internal side view, internal top view, exterior side view, exterior top view & exterior top view under the deck.
Doing the internal sections of the boat a lot harder for me and they take a very long time. It very important to me to be as nearly to 100% correct as I can get it. It also real important to draw all the pipe, wiring, bolt & nuts rivets etc.. correctly and know what they do ;D I could easily draw these things from the pictures we have, but this is not good enough for me.
For example, this whole summer or winter, Maciek & I have been working of the internal piping of the torpedo rooms and I feel we only understand about half the piping system. So you can see it can take time. This detail can be see in my drawing, but no one but a real u-boat nut (like us) we ever see this detail ;D
I have not posted many pictures of my internal drawing, and if I do I usually keep them smaller. I do this for several reasons, one, they changes a lots, as newer information come in. Two, I am a little worry about copyright. Once completed I would like to sell a few full size drawings just to help pay back some of the printing cost of the test printing (it cost me about $150-$210 NZD each time to print it out, as the full poster is large at 2.1 x 0.5 m).