AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE IX => Topic started by: schemelschelm on 02 Jan , 2014, 04:39
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Hello @all and best wishes for 2014!
I had the Revell Type IXC in 1/72 under the christmas tree and I'm interested in other decals for the boat.
Do you know, that AMP plans the release of other Turm-Malings for the IXC? I hope, there will be some different variants available?
And: The IXC from Revell has the "Turm III" - modification. How many IXC's had this conning tower variant?
I dont't know how many IXC's has this modification, but that surely limits the Maling-variants.
Greets from Germany,
Martin
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Hello Martin,
Happy New Year to you and indeed everyone on the AMP forum.
I think the Turm III was designed for Type VIIDs so that the mine-shafts would not be covered over by the guns or platforms. It used 2 X 2cm C/38s on a widened bridge, presumably side by side.
It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) but I am almost certain that U 505 had the Turm IV in June 1944. The boat cannot have had Turm III because Turm II only used 2 X 2cm guns on one platform.
By the way, U 505 had the original tower when launched, then converted to Turm II, and finally converted to Turm IV.
I can only assume that the Turm III reference in the Revell instructions is incorrect. Perhaps they thought Turm IV was specific only to Type VIICs? In any case, I think both type IXs and VIICs had Turm II and Turm IV, though the sizes of the Turms may have varied between the IX and VIIC.
For the decals, we have only just completed the design of the U 505 emblem (without red background!) and the corrected Type IX waterline draft marking decals. So I haven't really had a chance to research other emblems yet. The Revell kit is suitable for a IXC without a snorchel but with the Turm IV (so any non-snort IXCs which went on patrol during or after the summer of 1943 should be suitable). This does cut down the number of boats available.
There is a debate about whether the kit is suitable for IXC/40s as well. It may be because the size differences are small in 72nd scale and externally the boats may look virtually the same in photos. When I look at photos of the IXC U 505 and the IXC/40 U 534 I can't see any differences between them just by looking at them.
For decals, we could do the Olympic rings and axe for U 505 under Zschech. Also the 4th U-Flotille sybmbol was carried by a few so we could do that. Is there any emblem you wish to see?
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie,
many thanks for your comment, I make the mistake to trust in Revell's explenation of the boat. :)
Mmh, for example U-172 with the Poseidon looks interesting.
But I'm not sure that it has the Turm IV.
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Hi Martin,
The U 172 emblem is a really good one. I would think the boat must have had a Turm IV when sunk in December 1943 but I can't be sure that the Poseidon emblem at that time. It probably did but I haven't evidence to back it up.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie,
very cool, that's interesting. Uboat.net says that the boat has three different emblems over it's time of duty: Poseidon, 187843 (tonnage) and leaves and cross, Motorex (white ship outline on black background of the tanker "Motorex").
Here's the link: U-172 (http://uboat.net/special/emblems/u172.html)
But there the emblem pics are not visible. :-\
It's also interesting, because U-172 was a very succesful boat - 26 ships sunk, 152080 GRT.
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Hi Martin,
The Motorex was painted on the gun barrel (must be the 105mm). I'm guessing the 105mm would have been removed by the time the Turm IV was fitted.
The 187843 was probably the tonnage they thought they had sunk by a particular point, possibly the end of the penultimate patrol. Although they actually sank 152080, it was very common for crews to overestimate - this also happened with submariners in other navies too.
If we can get photographic refernce of U 172 with a Turm IV (can anybody help?) and the Poseidon then we'd draw the decals.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie,
I searched the insignias today and here are the results:
(http://www.abload.de/img/mobile.9l7p7s.jpg)
(http://www.abload.de/img/mobile.1025qnb.jpg)
(http://www.abload.de/img/mobile.113ursk.jpg)
Source: sharkhunters.com, fallschirmjager.biz, uboataces.com
I think the last one is best for the conning tower but a bit too small, isn't it?
And here a Pic from german-uboates.com, right Turm?
(http://www.abload.de/img/mobile.136hpij.jpg)
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Hi Dougie,
If you're going to do a sheet for the Type IX can I suggest Kptlt. Zschech emblems (Olympic rings and lion with axe) as his last patrols started with the boat in the same layout as the model is. If you're volunteering, so to speak, U 534's emblem would be nice :-* , here's Merseyside Transports version of it, you have already covered the Olympic rings than Merseyside have forgotten ::) .
Regards,
Jon
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Hi Dougie,
you mentioned earlier that the difference between an IXC and a IXC/40 wouldn't be noticable in 1/72 scale (if there is a difference).
If that's the case I would like to see one of the Monsun boats.
Either U-188 or U-532
If you were thinking about just the IXC, I agree with what was posted about U-172...that one's awesome.
Kind regards
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Thanks guys,
Your input is much appreciated. I've been writing an article on U-boat waterline marks so I haven't had time to go through all my books for possible emblem decals. I also want to do an article on U 505 next so studying decals will have to come after that.
I think we'll do the following -
U 505 - ninth patrol emblem (shell with no shield background)
U 505 - axe
Olympic rings - officers class of 1936 (for U 505 and other boats)
10th U-Flotille emblem - several boats including U 508 and U 510
Depending on available time I'm considering -
U 532 - very nice, not sure which version would be best.
U 534 - this would be nice. I see U 534 now has an emblem added (see http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/Pages/default.aspx) but with a yellow shield background.
U 188 - I have no photos of the real boat but would need some to get the size and position on the boat.
U 172 - yes, very nice, I would prefer photographs to prove it was there with a Turm IV (it probably was). There is a photo of U 172 at -
http://www.ebay.de/itm/U-BOOT-KRIEG-FOTO-U-172-VON-FEINDFAHRT-VOR-KAPSTADT-ZURUCK-WAPPEN-UND-ZAHL-87843-/291045440039?pt=Militaria&hash=item43c3a8fa27&nma=true&si=2H6ICn4Fe7eOQ7gIJFRlZyNNA%252Fs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I think the seller has the date of the U 172 photo wrong, I'm guessing it was taken later due to the high tonnage claim. But the photo doesn't show what Turm was on the boat.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Great work as always Dougie!
I am glad others are as excited about the Type IX as I am. The possibilities are sounding great for more Emblems and other U-Boats other than U-505.
Looking foward to the AMP Decal sheet.
Regards,
Dan
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I am glad others are as excited about the Type IX as I am.
Hell yeah! ;D
@Dougie: Some pics of U-188 are in the Köhl/Niestle "Uboottyp IX C - Vom original zum Modell", but the insignia is not visible I think. I will search again tonight.
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Hi folks,
I thought there was something I was forgetting and I have now remembered what it was. The 37mm on the wintergarten (which is on the Revell kit) only began to be introduced starting in late October / November 1943. Due to supply problems it might have taken time for all boats to be fitted. Before the 37mm was introduced, all boats with the Turm IV had the Vierling (4 barrels).
It is possible (just) that U 172 may have had the 37mm on her last patrol but I'm not sure. Certainly, U 505 did not have the axe and Olympic rings when the boat had the 37mm.
I suspect U 505 had the 37mm fitted during the November 8 - December 20 1943 refit.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie,
According to Hans in Steel boats, Iron Hearts the vierling was replace with the 3.7cm M42 after the 5th patrol 1st-13th July and before the 6th (aborted) patrol 1st-2nd August. Probably not that big of a job, unbolt one gun remove, refit with another, they would probably have been designed to have a common fitting bolt pattern, if not they had 2 weeks to make it fit, if there were ammunition racks inside the ready lockers then change them for the different munition. Page 145 in 2013 English paperback edition.
Speaking of said book, anyone want to comment on the picture on page 65 which appears to show the U505 with early Zscech tower emblems (battle axe on the side, possibly Olympic rings on the front), now for the interesting bit, 10.5cm deck gun, but not other armament?
regards
Jon
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Hi!
Any known pics of U-505 with the 2.0 cm Vierling? Or was it fitted with the 3.7 from the start of the trum IV refit ?
Dan
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Hi gents,
I don't have the Steel Boats book but I presume it shows the same photo of U 505 with Turm II as in Hunt And Kill? This photo shows the axe, Turm II and 10.5cm on foredeck. Note that in this photo the boat still has the 3.7cm on the aft deck (this was the original semi automatic 3.7cm SK C/30U that was fitted to the aft deck of all early IXs).
The Turm IV was fitted in the long refit between December 1942 and July 1943. At this time (according to Hunt and Kill) the Vierling was fitted and the 10,5cm deck gun removed. It does not mention if the 3.7cm SK C/30U gun was removed from the aft deck, but I presume it was.
Jon, thanks for the info from Hans' book. I'm not sure he is correct about the dates. You see, the 3.7mm M42 was the new automatic that the U-bootwaffe had been waiting for - it was not ordered until 15th October 1943 and was not fitted until late October, November and December 1943. (The full designation, I believe, was M42U in LM42U housing and this is the weapon which is currently on U 505). It surely cannot have replaced the Vierling in late July 1942. (I think the M42U replaced the Vierling on U 505 in the 8th November 1943 - 20th December 1943 refit). These guns were on the lower wintergarten platform, not the aft deck.
Could you perhaps tell me the exact quote on page 145? Thanks.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie, sorry for any previous confusion.
First, on further inspection I think looks like a turm II, with battle axe on the left side and possibly Olympic rings on the front, I assume (with no proof) that there is a mirror image? battle axe on the other side. The picture is rather small and low resolution but I believe approximately where the old 3.7cm would have been there is a man standing on the deck. This picture is annotated:
U-505 leaves Lorient under the command of Peter Zschech. The boat's former emblem -the battle ax- is visible on the port side of the conning tower. Zschech left it there as a token of continuity between the two commanders. But on further thought it must be a turm IV, unless she was originally rebuilt with a turm II which was upgraded to a turm IV before she sailed on her 5th mission
On pages 85 and 86 of Steel Boats there are pictures of the U505 after the bombing by Flt. Sgt Sillcock which show a turm I and shows the area of the deck where the 3.7cm gun was.
The quote from Steel boat page 145 is:
For the next two weeks, our boat underwent repairs. They also replaced our huge four-barreled 20mm anti-aircraft gun with a newly designed single barreled Oerlikon 37mm automatic cannon. The trim little weapon worked flawlessly for us until the very end.
This paragraph is after the description of the 5th patrol during which the boat suffered from several suspected sabotage failures and several close depth charge explosions.
I have seen the 3.7cm M42 and M43 incorrectly described as Oerlikon in other publications. I believe it is used to allow people from the allied countries to visualise the weapon and its performance.
There is at least one other reference of the veirling being fitted, but I am unable to find it at this time.
Also on page 137, after Flt. Sgt. Sillcocks bombing of the U505 and repair, including the turm IV upgrade:
Next came the ammunition loading. Our boat's new armament made this a simple task compared to the old days, because the boxes of 20mm ammo were much easier to handle than the massive 105mm artillery rounds we used to store. That big quad-barrelled flak gun inspired a lot of confidence that we will be able to fend off attacks by aircraft.
The fitting of the quad 2cm is also mentioned in Hunt and Kill, as you say, which I am currently reading at work, so don't have a copy handy
Regards
Jon
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Hi Jon,
Thanks for the info. I am pretty sure the image with the axe is the same one I am looking at now in Hunt and Kill. Although the quality is not great the boat looks like it has a Turm II (can't be 100% but it sure looks like a Turm II with a single 20mm on wintergarten platforms). Also, it is too early to be a Turm IV.
The fitting of a Turm II in August - October 42, and the fitting of Turm IV in 1943, fits in nicely with the dates that U-boats were fitted with Turms. All that is fine.
We already know that Zschench left for the Caribbean with a lower wintergarten platform (probably Turm II) and axe on 4th October 1942 due to the aforementioned photo. The only thing that concerns me is the photos of U 505 after the bombing by the Hudson on 10th November 1942. There is very little evidence of a lower platform in the photos after the attack. I have always thought the bomb had blown the 37mm aft deck gun and the lower wintergarten platform away. But surely there would be something left of the lower platform?
You mentioned a Turm I after the Hudson attack so you must also have noted the lack of wintergarten in the photos. What do you think? Do you think the lower platform could have been blown away? The boat left on patrol with a lower platform so surely it must have been blown away?
Yes, the "newly designed single barreled Oerlikon 37mm automatic cannon" must be the M42U automatic, though Hans' time period when it was fitted is open to debate.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie
If the picture you are referring is captioned "Cheered on by well wishers", then that is the same picture and in my copy of Hunt and Kill the picture has slightly better resolution than my copy of Steel hearts.
Using that it does seem to show a turm II with a 10.5cm SK C32 on the forward deck, 1*2cm C38 on each of the tower platforms and a 3.7cm SK C30 on the rear deck.
Now in Steel boat that picture is not given any date and I find that date suspect, but I am going to have to go quiet on the subject as I need to sort out a time line, several things aren't fitting, e.g. the picture below in Hunt "While a watch scans" etc, is definitely a turm I pictured in a tropical setting. Plus the upper picture on the next page shows absolutely no sign of the additional platforms of the turm II, bit of a coincidence?
Regards
Jon
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Hi Jon,
Thanks for your input on this. Like you I am very uneasy about the time frame. I don't think my timeframe (posted on the other thread) can be correct for the Turm II. I was basing the Turm II fitting date partly on the "cheered on by well wishers" photo of Turm II and axe but I am seriously doubting the date given in the book caption.
I thought the photo "while a watch stands" could be off of West Africa during patrol 2. But I'm thinking now that it is during patrol 3.
Secondly, I previously posted my concerns about the lack of wintergarten after the Hudson attack. I've scanned it in so I could have a good look at it - I just cannot see any wintergarten.
This means that the "cheered on by well wishers" photo of Turm II and axe cannot have been taken on October 4th 1942. Also that the Turm II must have been fitted in refit 5X (in early 1943). Actually this might make sense as refit 4X is a bit early for a Turm II.
The info on page 79 of Hunt and Kill implies that it was a Turm IV that was fitted in 5X. This may be called into doubt if Turm II was actually fitted in 5X.
I'm now thinking that Turm IV might have been fitted in refit 7X in July 1943. Remember that from August 1943, no boat could go out on operations without a Turm IV, so a later refit is highly unlikely.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hi Dougie
I think I need to re-read Steel boats carefully again, I don't remember it mentioning when it was written anywhere, but I'm guessing that the notes for the book were written whilst Hans was a POW which would allow a reasonably fresh memory and able to discuss events with other crewmen as the book reads almost like a diary, with a lot of specific dates.
A question to ponder, would a vierling fit on the lower platform of a turm II?
Assuming Hans' dates are right, (I believe they are) then we have a definitive time that the vierling was fitted.
If I find anything useful I'll pm you
Regards
Jon