Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 655362 times)

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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2400 on: 04 Dec , 2014, 09:56 »
Unbelievable, I`ll show it to the grandchildren. Reminding me of the longest submerged trip I ever made with good old KNM Kaura ex U-995. We were testing out long time schnorchling and was submerged for 28 days Norway-Greenland and return. We had no radio contact except Rugby and the time could be pretty boring so we let our radio operator be our entertainment man making musicprogrammes based on our stock of LPs. Just that autumn a new rock and roll was introduced on the market and we got it over the loadspeakers twice an hour during 28 days. The name of the melody: Rock around the clock tonight ! The only rock and roll I know. ;D
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2401 on: 04 Dec , 2014, 12:14 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Listening to Rap Music for 28 days would have been maddening!  By the way "Rock around the clock" was about the first "Rock n' Roll" songs ever, and it was performed by Bill Haley and the Comets!


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2402 on: 04 Dec , 2014, 20:27 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I have corrected the following:


47 - Reg tanks
84 - Tools
91 - Junkers  (the 2 cylinder) that was getting ahead of myself when typing with 2 fingers.  I never learned to type, so I have limitations!  I was supposed to type "a single cylinder 2 piston diesel engine"???  also I added a note about the exhaust valve being a logical estimation...
136 - pumps



Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 04 Dec , 2014, 20:48 by Don Prince »
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Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2403 on: 04 Dec , 2014, 20:55 »
Listening to Rap Music for 28 days would have been maddening!


My tolerance for this kind of music ends long before a single song is over. It is only bearable when I turn on the "audio professional analyzing mode" (which means I would have to work on it) - in that mode your brain makes it possible for you to survive endless loops of the same 5 seconds over a whole day (any kind of music), something that others would call torture. After I've switched my work (sound engineer) from music to movies I've stopped listening to music at all and enjoyed the silence.
But I've also stopped watching any movies during a long period of that time. When I've first saw a full movie after 7 years (as a continuing story and not in weird loop fragments for work) the emotional influence on me while watching it was extreme. I think frequently watching movies clearly has an impact on how you brain handles emotions, maybe we are all always kind of saturated to an unnatural permanent level of emotional input.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2404 on: 04 Dec , 2014, 21:40 »
Yep!!!


I know what you mean.  I purchased a Samsung 55 inch HDTV with 3D and a Bose sound system about 2 years ago!  We moved to the Atlanta Georgia area over a year ago and purchased a new home.  I got the basic internet package (20 mb) with just has local TV channels,  Since I have been working on Skizzenbuch, I've probably watched 2 Blue Ray DVDs in the past year. I like the quiet as well!


Regards,
Don_
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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2405 on: 05 Dec , 2014, 00:59 »
Hi Gentlemen,

Page 136 Aux. luboilpump. The pump you describe is the fueloil transferpump which can be connected to the luboilsystem and thus used as an auxiliary luboil pump.

I would rather say that it is inversely. German documents say:

Quote
Auxiliary lubricating oil pump.
           
The auxiliary lubricating oil pump serves for the lubricating of the engines before start-up, and backs-up the attached engine oil pumps in case of failure.  The pump is an electrically driven vertically arranged screw pump and supplies 38 m³/hour of oil at a discharge head 50 of meters H2O with at least 5 meters suction inlet head.  The auxiliary lubricating oil pump can be used by change-over for the distribution of fuel oil.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2406 on: 05 Dec , 2014, 02:16 »
Maciek and Don.
Maciek is absolutely right, the aux. luboil pump is primarily a luboil pump which can be used  as fuel transferpump as well. It was used as luboilpump every time you started the mainengines and when you turned the engines during maintenance. So to make it clear: due to a shortcircuit I changed the priority it is a luboil pump which can be used as fueltransfer pump not the other way.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2407 on: 05 Dec , 2014, 08:44 »
Don.
You Skizzenbuch 16 seems to be OK. May be you should make the text on the photo of the gauge for regulator tanks 2 port and stb and regulator/ fuel oilbunker tanks 1 port and stb a bit clearer. See my picture below showing the regulating tank 2 port water gauge is aft of the port water/ fuelgauge for reg./fuel bunker tk.1. On stb. side it is opposite, the water gauge for reg.tank 2 is fwd of the gauge for fueloil bunker tk. 1
« Last Edit: 05 Dec , 2014, 08:53 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2408 on: 06 Dec , 2014, 00:20 »
Don.
In your Skizzenbuch no 16 page 132, you have a nice photo of a pressurehull construction showing the fwd. engineroom area. You text says: "....The two domed exhaustcasting have been bolted in place on the pressurehull." The valves shown on the photo are the pressure hull inlet- and outlet valves for the ventilation system to be connected to the respective airducts going forward to the inlet valves high up in the towercasing and operated from the control room. The system is later modified for the schnorchel system as shown on the image below.
The large duct is the Diesel air supply to be connected to the dieselair hullvalve. See photo. Another interesting detail on this photo is a clear view of the dieselengine hatch which is riveted.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2409 on: 06 Dec , 2014, 19:00 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I have uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox...


Pages 48 - 49 Per Tore: added text to the gauge drawings
Pages 344 - 345 Per Don_: added Toggle Switchboard schematic from Deutsches U-Boot-Museum in Cuxhaven, Germany.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2410 on: 07 Dec , 2014, 01:10 »
Don.
Skizzenbuch 17 page 48-49. Measuring gauge for stb regulating/ f.o. bunker tk 1 is the aft gauge, thus opposite to the port arrangement, kind of weird as the reg./f.o. tk. 1 is the aft tank on both sides. Your image from the port side is correct. On a very sharp photo this can be seen on the scale, smallest volume 3.600 liter is the reg./f.o. tk. no 1. see photo.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2411 on: 08 Dec , 2014, 00:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Page 49 corrected and the latest version of Skizzenbuch was uploaded to dropbox...


That switch was not a logical move on the part of the Germans!


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2412 on: 08 Dec , 2014, 06:21 »
Don.
Page 49 checked OK. You still insist the ventilation hullvalves are the exhaust valves on the photo page 132. See my post dec. 6th.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2413 on: 08 Dec , 2014, 17:57 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I corrected page 132 as per your information and drawing...  I did not forget to do so earlier, but I had to go Christmas shopping with my wife Maureen during the weekend.  It worked out very well for me;  Maureen purchased a very nice (expensive) 26 inch mother of pearl World Globe in a brushes steel cradle floor stand for my library.  I guess Santa Clause came a bit early for me this year!


I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 08 Dec , 2014, 18:19 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2414 on: 08 Dec , 2014, 22:57 »
Don.
Page 132 checked OK. Finally we got rid of that exhaust in the ventilation system and can breathe fresh air! ;D
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2415 on: 10 Dec , 2014, 00:15 »
Don.
I am reverting to page 84 in your Skizzenbuch and my photo of a T tool from an early VIIC and three of the crew is seen in the engineroom hatch opening. One of my red arrows is pointing at an assumed "T tool". Having looked at several old U boat photos I discovered some uboats have next to the entrance hatches a T support used as a supporthandle for getting in and out of the hatch. This handle was obviously made of steeltubes having a larger diameter than the "T" tools, but looks very much the same and can easily be taken for a "T" tool. I cannot remember we had this support on our VII Cs. Below is an image showing a genuine "T" tool in the engineroom and some T supports on some late and early Uboats, some of them not VII Cs. On one image you see a crew member obviously operating a T tool, however this is an IXA boat. I discussed the T tool elongation earlier on this thread with Simon and he made a sketch showing the engineroom arrangement a small part of it is shown on my image.
Tore 
« Last Edit: 10 Dec , 2014, 00:22 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2416 on: 11 Dec , 2014, 09:15 »
Don.
Two small details in you skizzenbuch. Page 69 photo of the main engine the description says fuellines goes to the front of the engine where the manual starting and throttle control levers are located-  As you know there are no throttles (gasoline system) on a diesel engine (diesel, direct injection) thus the lever is the fuelrack control lever.
On page 142 you have an interesting photo of the pressurehull and saddletanks with a slightly confusing text as it looks like the stb ventvalve and ducts for the saddletanks  two and four are not yet fitted. It seems to me that you see the connectionflanges for same and the stb duct for MBT 3.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2417 on: 11 Dec , 2014, 17:59 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I corrected the item on page 69 and removed throttle to "manual starting and fuel rack control levers"...


Thank you for finding my screw-up of just pasting in old photos and info...  It sure was WRONG!!!  I have redone that entry and let me know if you think it is acceptable..


Kind regards,
Don_.
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2418 on: 12 Dec , 2014, 00:50 »
Don.
I guess you are right in your assumption, it could be a photo of the U 995 Restoration. However I believe the stb. MBT 3 vent duct is still visible, not missing. As a curiosity I can mention this particular area just in front of the conningtower stb side was completely smashed and the whole casing was gone during a heavy NorthSea gale  November 1953. We were able to repair it temporally in UK. When returning to our base in Trondheim, Norway the damage was evaluated and the KNM Kaura ex U-995 was on the point of being scrapped.
The rest of your corrections are OK.
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2014, 01:02 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2419 on: 12 Dec , 2014, 12:29 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I made the correction to page 142...  In addition, I added your comments about your November 1953 North Sea experiences.  That is what makes Skizzenbuch so unique; your first hand knowledge!  I hope you don't mind me doing so, and I really appreciate your help.


FYI -  According to the web site where I merge the 3 word documents to create the Skizzenbuch.pdf file this is my 85th version...


Kind Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 12 Dec , 2014, 12:32 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2420 on: 13 Dec , 2014, 00:34 »
Don.
Correction OK, feel free to use the November incident. A small comment on your enginetelegraph description, page 190. You are correctly explaining the order respond from the engineroom, however on the photo you are referring to, the port engine telegraph of the museum U 995, somebody has nicked the responding handle on this telegraph which might be confusing, stb engine telegraph is OK. see my image below.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2421 on: 13 Dec , 2014, 19:58 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I used your photo and uploaded Skizzenbuch version 86 to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2422 on: 14 Dec , 2014, 03:25 »
Don.
Page 86 checked OK.
 A remark on your description of the cooling water system. May be you should deal with the cooling system continuous as you now have pages 120, 126 132 photos of pressurehull interfering with the cooling water system sketches.
As to the cooling water system you have a general central main cooling water pipe going from main coolingwater distribution chest up front in the engineroom all the way to the aft torpedoroom able to serve all coolinginstallations from all the pumps connected to the mainpipe thus it creates a very flexible system.
 The compressors are in general selfsupported by a centrifugal pump for the E compressor and a rotary vane pump for the Junker compressor. Alternative supplies are from the central main pipe and whatever pump may be connected to same. In addition to the cooling components mentioned by you it is a branch off to the cooling of the sternshaft packing boxes and to the aft torpedo compensating system.
On the sketch below I have tried to put up the aft coolingwater system, blue is the suction line, red is the outlet- and green is the supply line and Junker cooling line overboard.
Tore
« Last Edit: 14 Dec , 2014, 03:27 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2423 on: 14 Dec , 2014, 15:10 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


About pages 120, 126, and 132...  These photos and many others were inserted into Skizzenbuch in order to get the Plate diagrams on an odd numbered page.  That way when the book is opened to read, the plate text or a photo is to the left and the plate diagram is almost always on the right side (odd numbered page).


I will look into updating and adding your comments in about the water cooling system...


Thanks again.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2424 on: 14 Dec , 2014, 19:18 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I placed your info on the Water Cooling System on page 112 and 113, re-indexed and uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch (88) to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2425 on: 15 Dec , 2014, 07:02 »
Don.
Showing the British plate 13 of the cooling watersystem, may be you should mention the red arrow points to the mistake (no connection) in the sketch. There is no connection to the common discharge pipe from the thrust bearing coolingdischarge.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2426 on: 15 Dec , 2014, 12:48 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Dose the GREEN supply line cooling water that goes to the Junkers muffler exit to the sea?  It looks so, but I just want to be sure...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2427 on: 15 Dec , 2014, 13:48 »
Don.
If you remember a few weeks back we discussed the Junker exhaust outlet in connection with the aft buoyancy tank ventvalve,  I guess there has apparently been some alteration in the system due to flooding trouble, however I believe the exhaust hullvalve has a watercooled housing where the coolingwater is discharged  in a simpler manor as the main engine system. This means that the Junker overboard coolingwater discharge is via the exhaust coolingwater jacket as indicated by the green lines. See my assumption sketch on page 155.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2428 on: 15 Dec , 2014, 17:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I updated page 113 and uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2429 on: 15 Dec , 2014, 23:47 »
Don.
A remark to you last update. I am not sure about the final arrangement on the Junker exhaust cooling watersystem. As mentioned it is obviously redesigned after the system shown on plate 13. As the germans experienced waterintrusion in the exhaustsystem I believe they introduced a second shutoff exhaustvalve almost like the mufflervalves for the main engines.
On the sketch below I have shown this valve in the systemsketch. We have discussed this second valve before, including the grinding , waterblowing system and interlock to the aft buoyancy tank venting. I have to emphasize though: this arrangement is an assumption from my side as I can not remember the details and have not seen any sketches or other documentation on the subject.
Tore
« Last Edit: 16 Dec , 2014, 00:53 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2430 on: 16 Dec , 2014, 10:47 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


On plate 13 we have valve e3 and the description below.  would that be the same as your rendition of the exhaust valve?  I have also attached a section of plate 13 which has e3 shown...


Regards,
Don_

BORDVENTIL ABGASANSCHLUSZ LUFTVERDICHTER
 
Hull exhaust valve, Diesel air compressor
 
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2431 on: 16 Dec , 2014, 12:44 »
Don.
e3 is indeed the exhaust board valve which can not be found on the museum U 995. I assume both the exhaustpipe and the valve somehow is removed when making the public entrance door. Down below is a cross section of the Junker compressor, as you see the exhaust pipe is cut and removed a short distance from the exhaust outletport of the compressor diesel part.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2432 on: 16 Dec , 2014, 19:35 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I guess I missed my point about the drawing I posted...  I will try again.  I cut a section from the German Plate 13.  I show a cut off of the junkers exhaust pipe as was done on U-995.  Then I point to the missing valve, and what looks to be the exhaust valve that you provided the internal working.  Is this a possibility?
There is a cooling water line from the external exhaust valve to the muffler as well....


Kind regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2433 on: 17 Dec , 2014, 00:22 »
Don.
It is a possibility, however if you look at the internal exhaustvalve casing I don`t think there is an inboard coolingwaterpipe  connection. The waterpipe from the board valvecasing to the muffler I believe is a pipebend to pass the flanges. However it is likely that the internal exhaust pipe is not cooled and the coolingwater outlet goes from the 4.compressor stage coolingwater outlet and into a cooling water jacket of the  board exhaustvalve casing as indicated on my sketch below.
 I am on my way to Africa early Thursday morning, traveling for some 12 hours so I shall be off line for a day or two. Hopefully back on the net Saturday. In the meantime I shall have time on the plane to ponder further on the arrangement.
Tore
« Last Edit: 17 Dec , 2014, 00:31 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2434 on: 18 Dec , 2014, 22:51 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I added some information about the TDC in the torpedo section of Skizzenbuch.  I didn't want to go into great detail, just a view from 20,000 feet as they say.  Please let me know if anything is not correct, or if I missed a vital part.  I did this without adding any additional pages.  The latest version of skizzenbuch is in dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2435 on: 19 Dec , 2014, 04:56 »
Hi Gentlemen,

in the topic of the Schnorchel - on the web page http://www.uboatarchive.net, few days ago
the KTB from U 480 second war patrol was published. In the end of the document, there are
gathered experiences from the Schnorcheling routine. It is really interesting reading.
http://uboatarchive.net/KTB480-2.htm

--
Regards
Maciek

PS. U 480 was fitted with Alberich cover.

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2436 on: 19 Dec , 2014, 17:59 »
Merry Christmas to all and a great new year 2015... :)


My Christmas decoration is a small LED lit tree with fiber optics that changes colors.  This was placed on top of my 8 year old deskside computer that's slow, but I only type with two fingers at a time.  It works for me!
My OTW Type VIIC U-Boat is 84 inches long with a fiberglass hull, and a plate brass deck and the tower was made from sheet brass and stock brass rods.  My U-96 'Das Boot" was a two year building project for me.  I believe the actual U-96 keel was laid on 16.9.39 and was commissioned on 14.9.40; 2 days shy of a year. The Germans were more efficient in U-Boat building that me.


Enjoy the photos.
Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline dougie47

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2437 on: 20 Dec , 2014, 03:33 »
Hi Don,
 
Thanks for posting pictures. Love the boat. Not surprised it took you two years. I have a second hand OTW VIIC to build so looking forward to that. The tower looks challenging as I am sure you will remember.
I finished off a OTW Vanguard and had it sailing this year. Do you get to sail your boat often?
I liked your SubCommittee articles, on your boat and if I remember you did one on the ballast system too.
Cheers,
 
Dougie

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2438 on: 20 Dec , 2014, 11:12 »
Don.
You must have a very understanding wife allowing this size of a VIIC model in your sittingroom. I had to fight getting my modest KNM Kaura ex U 995 with painting, my naval sword and the crew photo on my little navy corner.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2439 on: 20 Dec , 2014, 13:20 »
Maciek.
A very interesting KTB of the U 480 warpatrol during the time of the invasion as well as from the long schnorcheling . It is astonishing to learn how often they put the boat at rest at the bottom and how they eventually got rid of the garbage. We never laid at the bottom but used the torpedotube for getting rid of the garbage until the plasticbag once bursted. After that the torpedo people  denied to use that procedure.
Tore.
« Last Edit: 20 Dec , 2014, 14:30 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2440 on: 20 Dec , 2014, 13:49 »

Hello Mr. Tore and All,


My U-96 is actually in the up-stairs loft area along with my computer and flat screen TV - sort of a man cave with all my other collections and my library case of books.


Dougie, I have learned a lot in the past year about U-Boats from Mr. Tore, and I would NOT put too much faith in those past Subcommittee SCR articles.  My knowledge back then came from what little I could find in books and on internet.  I discovered early on that even some of the German sites has bad information!


I wish I had finished my OTW U-96 with a WTC, but it's been a display model for the past 10 years (my how time flies!).  I can't pry the hull apart to install the OTW wtc like Jeffrey LaRue does with his model of U-552 because I built the hull with a few internal ribs to get the hull shape correct.  I guess I could cut the aft section off like is done with the Engel type VIIC model.


It's OK for now...  I have two official photos from the French Naval Museum of the Brest U-Boat Pen taken after it was liberated by the US Blue and Grey Division framed above my U-96, and a piece of concrete from the Pen when it was bombed by the RAF during WWII in a Gold Shadow Box.  I guess like U-995, my U-96 has become a museum boat...


Kind Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2441 on: 21 Dec , 2014, 22:06 »
Hello Mr Tore(?) and Maciek.


Mr Tore, my wife Maureen said I was to call you "Your Excellency" since you are the Ambassador for Norway to 9 states in Africa.  She is very familiar with the correct state protocols because before she married me 22 years ago; she was the secretary to the Moroccan Ambassador in Jakarta, Indonesia. Apparently, this Chinese lady lowered her standards to marry an older (14 years) American computer engineer.


Maciek, thank you for the information on the TDC.  I updated Skizzenbuch and the latest version is in dropbox.  I updated pages 367 and 375 that had some wrong information about charging the batteries.  I hope I got it right this time.


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2442 on: 22 Dec , 2014, 02:20 »
Don.
I don't`think I deserve that title, but here I am called the Father of Her Excellency, which implies some benefits. Realising you are married to a Chinese, I can mention I worked with the China mainland Shipyards for some 10 years and over there I was called Nie Ha. Nevertheless I prefer my VIIC title, the Chief.
Approaching the season I would like to send all my friends on this thread greetings from a Norwegian, spending his Xmas in rather unusual environment, under tropical condition almost on the equator in Central West Africa.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2443 on: 22 Dec , 2014, 14:28 »
Mark.
Your question on the location of the magnet compass projector.
 Down below is an image of the compass projector in the control room just above the helmsmans position. The red circle indicates the missing removable Anschutz gyro repeater.
The other image shows the two different magnet compass casing executions on the casing deck up front of the conningtower casing.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2444 on: 01 Jan , 2015, 20:03 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


First of all, I want to wish all a great and prosperous New Year 2015!  I have been working on Skizzenbuch for over a year and I have come to the conclusion that most of the words were written by Mr. Tore or Maciek.  I just happen to be a editor who has assembled everything with graphics into Skizzenbuch that looks good to me.  Skizzenbuch was an original project for me to learn how the Type VIIC U-Boat worked and to have a printable document for my own personal library.  What happens now - we shall see?


I have uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox with updated documentation to the "Torpedo Section."


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 01 Jan , 2015, 20:06 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2445 on: 02 Jan , 2015, 01:59 »
Don.
A happy new year to you as well.
I like your last brush up of the Skizzenbuch very well and shall revert with a few comments later. Right now I am posting an image with details of the two pitot tubes for the speedlog which might have your interest.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Jan , 2015, 07:45 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2446 on: 06 Jan , 2015, 11:11 »
Maciek.
I have been asked  about the Anschutz gyro repeaters and checked with your translation of your exellent VIIC manual provided by Donald.
On page 73 is stated:
" a) Gyro compass installation.
      The Gyro compass installation consists of a gyro compass ( in the controlroom) and seven repeaters-
      The repeaters are located as follows:
      1 in the controlroom
      1 in the conningtower
      2 on the bridge ( one with bearing telescope)
      1 in the radio room
      1 wallrepeater in the controlroom near the active sonar equipment
       1 in the listening room"......

On museum U 995 the helmsmans gyrorepeater in the control room which can be moved the to emergecy steering in th E-room is missing but I cannot locate the bulkheadrepeater next to the active sonarequipment. Do you happen to have any photos showing the repeaters near the active sonar equipment, radioroom or hydrophoneroom? 
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2447 on: 06 Jan , 2015, 14:22 »
Hi Tore,

On museum U 995 the helmsmans gyrorepeater in the control room which can be moved the to emergecy steering in th E-room is missing but I cannot locate the bulkheadrepeater next to the active sonarequipment. Do you happen to have any photos showing the repeaters near the active sonar equipment, radioroom or hydrophoneroom? 

I have never seen any photo of gyro-repeater next to the active sonar equipment (that is over chart table) in the U 995 control room. I guess, that this unit was used to replace the original helmsman repeater. However, I have attached photos of this repeater from the U 96 and U 98 control room.
The gyro-repeater in the radio room is embedded into the desk, where is integrated with the radio-direction finder dial.
I have never seen the photo of the gyro-repeater in the listening room.

--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2448 on: 07 Jan , 2015, 04:09 »
Maciek.
Thank you for the photos. Scrutinising the surroundings of the chart table of U 995 I cannot find any brackets for the gyrorepeater neither the connection, it is however quite logical that the navigator would have a repeater at this table. In an emergency configuration I guess it would be logical that the helmsmans repeater was moved to the emergency steering aft as this repeater was not in use at the helmsman normal place. The navigator would still require a repeater at the chartable as the navigation continues to take place on this location in a aft steering configuration. 
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2449 on: 08 Jan , 2015, 04:07 »
Don.
On page 84 in your Skizzenbuch you are using one of my images showing the wheel wrench and a wrongly assumed T bar wrench. The "T bar" shown on the casing deck is a hand support for the access in and out of the hatch  May be you should change that image and use the images below.
Tore
« Last Edit: 08 Jan , 2015, 04:08 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2450 on: 09 Jan , 2015, 06:55 »
Don.

The Junker freepiston compressor
Your Skizzenbuch contains some fragments of descriptions of the Junker which in some cases are confusing due to misunderstandings in the sources you have been using. This is quite understandable as there are very few, if any at all, complete descriptions available of this unique piece of machinery. Just after the WW2 the compressor was a topic which was widely discussed amongst  the RN and other submarine engineers as it was an advanced construction well ahead of its time, yet the beginning of the development of same started during WW1 and the first engine was shown in Leipzig 1936.
In an attempt to make a working explanation I have written the following description:

The Junker free piston compressor type 4FK-115 is an opposed piston, dieseldriven 4 stage compressor and consist of a dieselpart in in the center and two stages of compressors at the ends. The dieselengine is a single cylinder uniflow scavenged two stroke engine, having a cylinderdiameter of 115 mm and a stroke which varies normally between 218 to 225 mm. The diesel pistons are directly connected to the one- and two stage compressorpiston at the scavengingport side and a second- and third stage compressor piston at the exhaust port side.
Each piston has a yoke connected to two synchronizing gear racks driving two gearwheel with stubshaft centrally placed opposite each other on both sides of the dieselengine. The rear gearwheel stubshaft is connected to a rotary vane type cooling waterpump and by external rodconnection to a swash type of lubricator having ten supplypipes to various lubricating points, including both dieselcylinders and the four compressor cylinders.
The front gearwheel stubshaft operates a Bosch plunger fuel injection pump having its supply from the day/ setling tank in the engine room and directly connected to the cylinder fuelinjection valve.
The front stubshaft is protruding out of the compressorcasing ending in a square where a crank can be connected for moving the pistons in an outer end starting position. Around this shaft is a indicatorplate showing the position of the pistonassembly in the cylinder.
The central area surrounding the firststage compressor- and diesel enginecylinder including the scavenging ports is forming a large airbox ( light blue coloured ) which act both as a scavenging air reservoir as well as a bouncing chamber having a volume about 21 liters.

Starting procedure.
Starting is done by putting a crank on the square of the rackwheel stubshaft controlled by the synchronizing gearwheel driving the HP fuel pump. By turning the crank the pistons are forced in an outer dead end position where a hand-or pneumatic controlled catch engages and locks the piston assembly in a starting position.
By this movement the underpart of the first stage compressorpiston draws air ( light blue ) from the scavenging air inlet duct to a chamber enclosed by the underpart of the first stage compression piston and a plate with several small springloaded air supply valves ( shut at this point ) separating  the scavenging air box from the enclosed chamber under the compression piston.
App. 1/3 of the first stage compressors compression stroke acts as a part air supply ( dark green) for the air box via the compressor cylinder airports through  separate channels to the airbox.
The diesel engine is now in a locked starting position where the scavenging- and exhaustports are open, the scavenging air is pushing the exhaust out of the exhaust ports and the cylinder is filled with air from the scavenging air box.
Underneath the compressor is a starting air flask connected to the air valve assembly on the compressor front consisting of an airpressure maintaining valve which can be adjusted between 140 and 210 kg/cm safetyvalves cutting the fuelsupply when pressure is dangerously high and a startingvalve manually or automatic/pneumatic operated.
Via the starting valve, air at pressure of app 35 kg/cm2, from the startingflask is supplied to the various stages of the compressor cylinders. When the airpressure of the 1 stage reaches app. 3,5 kg/cm2, the catch releases and the pistons rapidly are forced towards each other, stopped by the compression, rate about 1:40, and the fuelinjection ignites. The combustion forces the pistons appart and by that the scavenging air is drawn into the the confined space under the first stage compressor piston  as previously explained. App. 1/3 of the first stage compressor piston stroke supplies air via separate channels to the air box to assure sufficient scavenging. The rest of the stroke supplies air to the 2nd. stage compressor cylinder. At the dead outer end of the stroke the diesel pistons reveals the scavenging and exhaustports  and air under pressure from the scavenging airbox via the scavenging ports forces the exhaust out of the exhaust ports. At this point the pistons change direction as the pistons bounce back initiated by the pressure energy of the residue airpressure kept by the adjustable outlet air pressure maintenance valve ( 140-210 kg/cm2) fitted after the  fourth stage cooler, as well as some lesser bouncing chambers formed around the compressor piston rods of stage one and two, see image. they bounce back and As The pistons shuts the exhaust and scavenging ports and the diesel compression stroke starts. At the turning of the pistons, the underside of the first stage compressor piston starts acting like a compressor, forcing air through the small springloaded valves in the separating plate into the scavenging air box and fill same with fresh air. 4/5 of the scavenging air is supplied in this way ,the remaining 1/5 is supplied by the first 1/3 of the first stage compression stroke.

Prior to the end of the diesel compression stroke the fuelpump/valve is timed to end the injection at the same piston position irrelevant of the speed ( frequency). Thus any change in amount of fuel injected is done by an earlier start of the injection.
From here on the cycles are repeated and the compressor is running.
The scavenging air consumption to produce 1 kg. of HP air (205 kg/cm2) is about 1-1.25 kg of which 0,75 kg is required for combustion, the remainder is used for purging and cooling of the dieselcylinder.
The pressure fluctuation of the scavenging air varies between 0,75- and 1,25 kg/cm2.
For a proper balancing, the compressor does not deliver air before the 4th stage air pressure reaches 52 kg/cm2 controlled by the previously mentioned air pressure maintaining valve in the starting airvalve assembly.

The length of the piston stroke  is not restricted, but as the Junker compressor is a so called fixed output machine, the stroke variation is limited and almost insensitive to the load. F. inst the speed increases only slightly as the counterpressure increases.

The compressor is fully balanced, has a low weight/volume output ratio, is not hampered so much under throttled condition which all makes it very suitable for submarines. However it is noisy and susceptible to bad combustion as carbon might be formed at the dieselpistons creating unbalance hence requires frequent maintenance intervals.

The cooling
The watercooling ( green ) is normally carried out by the vane type cooling waterpump driven from an eccentric at the back side synchronizing stubshaft  The compressor is, with exception of the 4 th. stage, only partially waterjacketed ( green coloured). The major air cooling takes place outside at the bottom of the compressor for each stage in separate intercoolers which reduces the temperature after each stage and at the outlet of 4 th stage has an endcooler for the final cooling.
Tore
« Last Edit: 15 Jan , 2015, 04:26 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2451 on: 09 Jan , 2015, 23:50 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I will work on updating Skizzenbuch this weekend...  I spent the last 2 days recovering a corrupted MS word file (the 3rd segment of 3 files)) that I use to build Skizzenbuch into one PDF file.  I was working on the 'Torpedo Topic" and MS Word "BLEW UP!" How poetic is that!  MY MS Word file got hit by a LUT torpedo with the correct gyro-angle, distance, bend, and search pattern using the correct a + 1a, and the a - 1a values...  Go figure.......


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2452 on: 11 Jan , 2015, 01:05 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I just added all the suggested info from Mr. Tore, and I updated the torpedo section and moved pages around to make it flow better.  If there are any issues, then please let me know.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Mr. Tore, I had to Google "Bouncing Chamber" to see what you were talking about.  I learned something new...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 11 Jan , 2015, 01:08 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2453 on: 11 Jan , 2015, 12:43 »
Don.
I have read your update on the the Junker in the Skizzenbuch and have some small remarks. The first is that RN stands for Royal navy and is primarily the British navy, the Norwegian navy is nominated as R Nor. navy, but the Junker was discussed in both navies as well as others.
 An interesting note is your translation of the German text on the Junker exhaust system where your translation says a watertrap was introduced in both end for one boat. If you look at my plate 13 images  below,   for the system for the MAN engine plate 13 A there is no such trap indicated, whereas on plate 13 for the GW engine a watertrap is introduced right before the exhaust outlet of the Junker. Unfortunately nothing is shown on the museum U 995 but I would assume any requirement for a watertrap would not depend on the type of main engine. My guess is, this has something to do with the time for updating the sketches and that the GW ME system is the latest corrected, It would be interesting to see your German text as the translation is a bit unclear to me.
Tore
« Last Edit: 13 Jan , 2015, 04:15 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2454 on: 11 Jan , 2015, 16:57 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I corrected the RN as (Royal Navy - British)...



This wasn't my translation...  Please see *Reply #2293 on:[/size] 24 Oct , 2014, 03:08 » [/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]This was a posting from Maciek.  Do I need to change something?[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Regards,[/color]
[/size]Don_[/color]
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2455 on: 12 Jan , 2015, 03:35 »
Don.
I have read Maciecks original German text on the Junker exhaust waterintrusion problem and believe I have an understanding of the German final solution, which eventually would be found on the boats assumed delivered after 1942.
 In 1941 they obviously still were working on the problem, then according to the documentation furnished by Maciek, they redesigned a detail on the Junker scavenging system by introducing scavenging ports on the first stage compressor stroke.
 At the outer stroke the dieselpistons reveals the dieselcylinders scavenging ports as well as the exhaust ports and the overpressure left from the combustion and airbox pushes the gases out of the cylinder against the counterpressure in the exhaust line. If the sea swell fills the exhaustpipe, the counterpressure can be excessive and water intrusion occurs. The greater the swell, the higher the exhaustpressure rises, hence a limitation to the swell of 5. To overcome the extra pressure, the  first stage compressor piston is used to give a higher scavengingpressure. This happens just when the pressure in the scavenging airbox drops as the exhaust ports are open . See my image, blue indicates the scavenging air box, (green) indicates the supportpressure deriving from the ports and separate channels from 1.rst stage 1/3 stroke of the compressors piston to the scavenging air box
 In addition I assume  a second exhaustvalve was introduced outside the pressurehull which has a airconnection on the waterside,to blow the exhaustpipe between the valve and the muffler and operated from inside the pressurehull, with interlock to the aft buoyancy ventvalve as previously discussed. See my sketch below.
 As a final countermeasure a watertrap was fitted just before the Junker exhaust outlet as indicated on the system image  plate 13 for the GW. engines.
Tore
« Last Edit: 12 Jan , 2015, 07:10 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2456 on: 12 Jan , 2015, 10:26 »
Don.
Your Googled explanation of a bouncing chamber is probably not so easy to understand in relation to a free opposed piston dieselengine. In an attempt to avoid math. and thermodynamics a very simplified explanation could perhaps be : In a conventional dieselengine the mass energy stored in the piston, conrods, crankshaft and flywheel contribute to the compression stroke. A free piston engine has no rotating mass energy stored and as there are no mechanical restrictions of the piston stroke the pistons are stopped in the outer position by aircompression. As some of the compression energy is used to fill the airvessels, part of the bouncing effect is gone. However the pressure maintenance valve keep the compression pistons backpressure at a level which gives a bouncing effect and in addition you have two small bouncing chambers (red on the image below) formed around the first and second stage compressor pistonrods. The bouncing substitutes the rotating masses and create a spring effect bouncing the dieselpistons back to compression.
You may say it is almost the " flywheel" of a free piston engine

The green text to be inserted and the old text to be deleted


Tore
« Last Edit: 15 Jan , 2015, 06:13 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2457 on: 13 Jan , 2015, 19:22 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I added two pages of info in the JUnkers section of Skizzenbuck and re-indexed the book.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2458 on: 14 Jan , 2015, 06:44 »
Don.
 I have read you update on the Junker based on my last info and guess it is OK. One remark, on page 93 the text says:"...the interlock prevents the Junker compressor from starting because the exhaust valve can not be opened unless the stern buoyancy tank vent valve is shut..." Maybe a simpler way to say this is: the inter lock prevent the compressor to be started as the exhaustvalve cannot be opened unless the stern buoyancy vent valve is shut, thereby keeping........"
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2459 on: 15 Jan , 2015, 04:48 »
Don.
Reading my description of the Junker i am not fully satisfied particularly concerning the so called bouncing chamber or more correctly scavenging air box ( chamber). I have  changed some of my text in reply 2450. The old text coloured red should be deleted and the new text coloured green to be inserted. Further the image of Junker last 7-1 following the text should be deleted and the image below to be inserted. Sorry about this, but I guess this is a more correct version of the Junker. I am correcting some of the text in my reply 2456 as well soonest.
Sorry about this.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2460 on: 15 Jan , 2015, 21:59 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I believe I got everything corrected in Skizzenbuch in the Junkers section.  It sure is hard to distinguish the green text, but I think I got it right...  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox for your review.  Thanks again for the corrections, and that's not a problem for me to make corrections because I want to get it right.


Kind regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2461 on: 16 Jan , 2015, 03:29 »
Don.
I had a look through the Junker part of the Skizzenbuch 13 and may be we are going into too many details as it is always something which has to be adjusted or corrected. On page 90 first paragraph of the description the correct text should be... The dieselpistons are directly connected to the first and fourth stage compressorpiston at the scavenging ports side.....
Page 91 starting procedure.... Approximately (appr)..somehow you got bold letters on several places.
             3 rd lowest line ... first-  should be f. inst.
Page 93 drawing of the bouncing chamber. The arrangement of the first stage compressor cylinder scavenging air outlet ports. On the crossection drawing you see on one side the port, on the other side is a chamber wrongly coloured green. This is in fact a channel belt covering the ports going around the cylinder and should be coloured the same way as the scavenging air box.
In addition the image of the first 1/3 of the first stage compressor stroke shows wrongly a green stripe ( scavenging air) right thru the piston assembly
If you use the two images below as a substitute for the two in your book you should be OK.
Tore
« Last Edit: 16 Jan , 2015, 03:46 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2462 on: 16 Jan , 2015, 12:17 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


what is "f. inst" abbreviation stand for?


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2463 on: 16 Jan , 2015, 12:35 »
Don
For instant.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2464 on: 16 Jan , 2015, 16:49 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I changed over the two images and I believe I have made all the suggested changes,,.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2465 on: 17 Jan , 2015, 03:36 »
Don.
I checked the last changes in your Skizzenbuch and it seems OK.
Tore
« Last Edit: 18 Jan , 2015, 02:25 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2466 on: 01 Feb , 2015, 00:26 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


My write-up on the torpedo section states the torpedo tubes were vented into the pressure hull when the torpedo launch piston was pushed back by the sea water during a submerged launch.  However, a colleague of mine indicates the blisters on the front side of the hull were vents for the torpedo tubes. 


My question:  Did the early type VII U-Boats vent the torpedo tubes externally?  If so, did this not defeat the purpose of the piston to eliminate air from escaping and expose the U-Boat's location after a torpedo launch?


See Photo...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2467 on: 01 Feb , 2015, 03:31 »
Don.
As you know I am not a torpedoman and Maciek is much better in giving you an explanation of the system. All our VII Cs had these "blisters".  I post some images showing KNM Kaura ex. U 995 in drydock in 1954 being a VIIC/41 ( 1943) Appart from the conningtower pretty much as the original shape. Further in her 1962 shape and lifted by a crane in Kiel approximately 1970 as delivered from Norway. Finally as museum boat at Laboe 1972. You clearly see the "blisters) on the two first images whereas they are removed on the museum boat.
In 1953 we tested a surface torpedolaunch ( with a dummy torpedo) just outside the submarine pen in Trondheim I took a picture of the event as posted.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2468 on: 01 Feb , 2015, 10:36 »
Hello togehter,

some years ago they was another discussion about these marks on the hull: http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=221.0

From my point of view these marks are not related to the torpedo system.

These "bumps" have a very simple work to do: They helps to get out the huge amount of water inside the free flooded structure.
This water at this position was a big problem out at sea. Water at this position results to a hard working boat.
This problem occurs first at Type I. Later also on Type VII A. They try to fix it by many different changes of the first flooding holes. At some pictures of U35 you can see that they have also opend additional flood holes just at the position of the "bums" of later Types. This helps to get out the water. But also the water could fast get in.
At development of type VII B they ad these "bumps". This are just open flood holes. But at speed foreward the water could easy get out but nothing or only slow get in.
If someone owns a smal boat he maybe used a very similar thing to get out the water. In german it calls "Selbstlenzer".

Regards,

Uboatfan


Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2469 on: 01 Feb , 2015, 14:18 »
Hi Don,

My write-up on the torpedo section states the torpedo tubes were vented into the pressure hull when the torpedo launch piston was pushed back by the sea water during a submerged launch.  However, a colleague of mine indicates the blisters on the front side of the hull were vents for the torpedo tubes. 


My question:  Did the early type VII U-Boats vent the torpedo tubes externally?  If so, did this not defeat the purpose of the piston to eliminate air from escaping and expose the U-Boat's location after a torpedo launch?

I also think, that these blisters are not related with the torpedo tubes (or venting the tubes).
On the u-historia.com site (unfortunately it is not working now) some time ago they published description, that this blisters were responsible for releasing the pressure inside the tube (caused by forward movement of the boat), when the muzzle doors were opened. This higher pressure had to influence for the depth-keeping apparatus of the torpedoes.

This blisters seems to be located near the breech doors of the tubes. However, when I was visiting U995 museum, I was looking for any connections passing the pressure hull in this area. I have found nothing.

So I guess that description is quite accurate:

These "bumps" have a very simple work to do: They helps to get out the huge amount of water inside the free flooded structure.
This water at this position was a big problem out at sea. Water at this position results to a hard working boat.
This problem occurs first at Type I. Later also on Type VII A. They try to fix it by many different changes of the first flooding holes. At some pictures of U35 you can see that they have also opend additional flood holes just at the position of the "bums" of later Types. This helps to get out the water. But also the water could fast get in.
At development of type VII B they ad these "bumps". This are just open flood holes. But at speed foreward the water could easy get out but nothing or only slow get in.
If someone owns a smal boat he maybe used a very similar thing to get out the water. In german it calls "Selbstlenzer".

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2470 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 01:01 »
I am fully in agreement with Maciek and uboatfan, I can not find any system sketches showing pressurehull passages related to the "blisters" for the torpedo systems. I believe there are some void spaces in the joint between the casing and pressurehull difficult to drain/vent. The "blisters" would possibly be ejectors drainers creating a suction as the boat moves forward and improve the flooding while diving. I never pounded upon these " blisters" but have seen many  people discussing same as a torpedo venting device. Allthough not very involved in the the torpedo system,I remember while launching the torpedoes submerged we always felt it on the ears due to inboard venting.  On the image below I have tried to show the system by superimposing  a couple of sketches.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Feb , 2015, 01:22 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2471 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 01:49 »
Hi Gentlemen,

On the u-historia.com site (unfortunately it is not working now) some time ago they published description, that this blisters were responsible for releasing the pressure inside the tube (caused by forward movement of the boat), when the muzzle doors were opened. This higher pressure had to influence for the depth-keeping apparatus of the torpedoes.

The u-historia.com website is online, the problems with the connections are on my side.
Anyway, the description I was talking about can be found here:
http://u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/visitaguiada/tlt/tlt.htm
in the paragraph labelled as "Comunication exterior".

However, as I said before, I do not agree with it. One drawing presents the hull valve located in the forward torpedo room, at port side, near the breech doors of the torpedo tubes. It is valve used to flood the compensating tanks and to equalize the pressure in the torpedo tubes before opening the muzzle doors. It was discussed on this forum in this topic:
http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=877.msg12687#msg12687
The image below, at left presents the equalizing valves, which are described here:
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/equipment/torpedo-tubes-of-german-u-boats
(paragraph "2. Torpedo tube flooding and drainage installation")

I can not say nothing about the valve on the right drawing.

--
Regards
Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2472 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 08:54 »
Hello together,

The picture at U-historia about the valve is completly wrong! If that valve is only located on port side why all boats have these blisters, bumps or markings on both side?
The real hull opening for this valve is visible just near to that. I have made a modification to a similar picture to show what i mean.
Second question is wy did only type VII subs have these blisters, bumps or markings?
If they are related to the torpedo system in any way: Show me equivalent openings at aft torpedo tubes or at any other german sub! You will never find something...

So (after thinking a long time about this issue) the only logical solution is that these things are a special solution only for Type VII subs.

And finaly you will find at many other geman subs very similar solutions for the same problem.
By the way: Some type IX subs have very similar bumps at front and rear!

A question to Tore:
You have made an very interesting superimposing! Could you post the complete picture of that sub? Or tell me where to find.
On this picture it looks like that these blisters are not there. I see complete open flood holes instead!
Is this sub a early Type VII B?

Regards,

Uboatfan

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2473 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 10:26 »
At development of type VII B they ad these "bumps". This are just open flood holes. But at speed foreward the water could easy get out but nothing or only slow get in.
If someone owns a smal boat he maybe used a very similar thing to get out the water. In german it calls "Selbstlenzer".


I think the Selbstlenzer was invented after WWII by Paul Elvstrøm (born 1928) 

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2474 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 10:52 »
Hi VIC20,

that is absolute correct. The Selbstlenzer was invated after WWII.
The basic funktion is similar.
The Selbstlenzer mostly had a additional valve and was foldable to get a smooth hull for more speed.

Regards,

Uboatfan



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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2475 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 12:29 »
Ejector drainer VIIC.
I believe the ejector drainer is built upon a well known principle and used in naval engineering. The system was frequent used during WW2 as damage control pumping where steam ejector pumps could handle large quantity of water. In order to try to explain the reason for the position of the ejector drain ( and flood gate) I made the image below showing the horizontal crosssection of a VIIC about the level between the upper and lower torpedotubes. The pink colour indicates the MBT 5 and the blue the difficult and narrow void space between the casing and the pressurehull. When the submarine speeds ahead there shall be a suctioneffect in the "nozzle blister" draining the void difficult space. The ejectorblistesr seems to be located at the same draftlevel as the floodgates for the bow buoyancy tank. For a submarine not having a double hull I guess the VIIC has fewer flood gates than the conventional submarines of other navies  during WW2. I am posting an image of a RN WW2 S class (having 6 torpedotubes and not double hull) being only slightly smaller than VIIC,  showing the floodgates.


Tore
« Last Edit: 03 Feb , 2015, 05:52 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2476 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 22:51 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


Great job Mr. Tore!  I updated Skizzenbuch on page 85 with the "Blister" information and added 2 pages to the torpedo section.  Just a little info on charging the batteries in the G7e torpedo with photos provided by Maciek.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into Dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2477 on: 02 Feb , 2015, 23:33 »
Uboatfan.
You shall find the relevant drawings on the pages of U-Historia. Tecnica, Visita Guida, Construccion. You`ll find the link in the last post from Maciek.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Feb , 2015, 23:41 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2478 on: 03 Feb , 2015, 00:58 »
Don.
I checked your to days Skizzenbuch page 85 and have following minor remarks. I don`t think you are meaning the Uboats were cursing on the surface ;D . May be you should add that the drain ejectors are situated at about the same draftlevel as the bow buoyancy floodgates. As an example of floodgates on other navies WW2 subs floodgates in the area I posted a photo of me diving in the oldfashioned WW2 equipment near the bow of a RN T class WW2 sub. clearly illustrating the ample floodgates in the area.
Tore 
« Last Edit: 03 Feb , 2015, 05:54 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2479 on: 03 Feb , 2015, 01:14 »
Hello,

Tore explained exactly what i mean. Great job. Thank you. Al the jears i thougt about this blisters an their real funktion. Now the riddle is solved...

I always read about a Skizzenbuch.
Where can i find this?

Regards,

Uboatfan

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2480 on: 03 Feb , 2015, 01:54 »
The Skizzenbuch is in currently made by Don Prince who seeks advises on this tread. I don`t think the book is completed as yet and I don`t know what Dons final intentions are, but in the last year it has increased in volume and is right now a book of 432 pages on the VIIC. Don is one of the VIIC enthusiasts who collects all sorts of info on the matter as you can see on this thread. I am merely a consultant being a very old submariner and ex. EO of KNM Kaura ex U 995 and KNM Kya ex U 926 in the 50 ties.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2481 on: 04 Feb , 2015, 11:46 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Very interesting...  So you served on U-995 VIIC/41 and U-926 VIIC; I believe U-926 was scrapped in 1962.  Did you serve an any of the later subs like the Ula Class jointly developed by Norway and Germany (U-Boot Klasse 210 - Diesel-electric)?  Others?

PS: Yes I can see where the blisters align with the flood gates.  If the U-Boat is submerged, then the entire bow free flood area would be flooded.  The blisters would allow a small amount of water to flow through the bow free flood area, but that wouldn't affect the drive performance. Would it?


When running on the surface, water from the flood gate will flow up over the rounded bow pressure hull approaching the level of the lower set of limber holes in the U-Boat outer side casing.  I thought the function of the blisters was to evacuate the water.  If water was allowed to pool in this area, then it would result in a slight increase in bow weight.  At that distance from the center of gravity it only takes a little weight to lower the bow, and with a lower bow the U-Boat will require more power to maintain a set speed.


Of Course, I could be off on a tangent again... Please advise!

Note* The photo you posted of U-995 demonstrating the alignment of the flood gate and the blisters, the U-Boat looks to be running very high in the water.  The flood gate and the upper torpedo tubes look to be out of the water (the waterline is way above the surface).  Is this an unusual running condition?Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 04 Feb , 2015, 12:27 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2482 on: 04 Feb , 2015, 14:05 »
Don.
I am an old submarinefart who never served on any of the submarines built after WW2. The Ula class building programme was under the supervising of my CO on KNM Kaura (ex U 995) as well as KNM Kya ( ex U 926 )and we both served together these submarines when they were  operated as frontline subs.
I believe you are basically right in your assumption . However the blister ejector effect is depending upon the forward speed, in addition you have the buoyancy tank and later the Atlantic bow with the flare effect, all contributing to lift the bow pitching in bad weather.
We have almost exclusively been discussing the draining of the void spaces, but an other important detail is to flood the void spaces in a way that no air is trapped in the difficult areas.The blistergates would improve the flooding of the difficult void spaces as well preventing a treacherous track of airbubbles.

The photo showing the uboat bow buoyancy floodgates and the blisters  is in an extreme shallow draft condition I should think the boat is possibly without batteries, normally the buoyancy tank floodgates and the blister is just below the waterline.
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Feb , 2015, 13:53 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2483 on: 17 Feb , 2015, 18:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I have uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox.  This version contains the corrected info per Maciek with regards to the Switchboards and updated info to the two Switchboad panels; Rotary and Toggle blade.  I found this issue when reviewing the panel drawings from the U-boot Museum schematic documentation (i.e., the accelerating contactor).  I also removed the extensive word capitalization in the text on my part; that was to make it easy for me to identify what was being covered on a page.


If you see any problems, then please advise.  Maciek will be back next week and he can verify the switchboard identification info to see if I finally got it right!  I was really struggling with the concept... 


This has been a long educational process for me and I really appreciate your and Maciek's help along the way.  After I get your and Maciek's approval, then I will commit the Skizzenbuch.pdf to a printed copy for my Leather covered post binder.  That was my original goal when I started my Skizzenbuch project; to have a book that explains how a Type VIIC U-Boat actually worked.


I have 3 different publishing companies who have downloaded the final version and it may actually become a real book.  However, I am not optimistic about this prospect because I would be an unknown author, but there is nothing like Skizzenbuck offered to the public or a U-Boat enthusiast.  So. we'll see...


One additional benefit is that I have two great friends who are experts on U-Boats!  Perhaps, I may consider another Skizzenbuch based on the Type IX U-Boat.  However, I need a break for awhile before I consider another project.   


Kind regards,
Don_ 
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2484 on: 18 Feb , 2015, 01:21 »
Don.
Having a brief check on your final Skizzenbuch I discovered a small mistake on the crossection drawing of the Junker compressor, the 1. stage compressor inlet chamber is not marked properly, only the scavenging air inlet. As this might be confusing for the reader who wants to go into details I recommend to correct this. The compressor atmospheric air inlet is via a common airfilter as indicated, however it is branched off in two inlet , one for the diesel part and one for the first stage compressor part. I have updated the drawings on page 90 and 95 accordingly as per my images below.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2485 on: 18 Feb , 2015, 18:37 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you for the updated info...



On Page 95, I cut the old drawing and pasted the new Junkers exhaust.jpg in; not a problem...


On Page 90 I copied the changes over from Junkers exhaust b.jpg onto the existing drawing because I liked showing the cylinders and the bouncing chambers in two different positions.  If I just added the Junkers exhaust b.jpg to Skizzenbuch as another page, then I would have to add a 2nd page to sync up the rest of the book because the schematic Plates need to be on a odd page number; re-do the page numbers and the index... I would like to avoid that if at all possible.


Please let me know if what I have done meets with your approval?


Kind regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2486 on: 19 Feb , 2015, 00:20 »
Don.
Your copies are OK. Note the crossection drawing is of a Japanese  Junker made under license by Kohama and used for Japanese submarines during WW2, however they are basically the same.   One thing strikes me though, the opposed pistons on the Junker compressor have deep recesses located near the piston crowns which can be confusing on the drawing with regards to the scavenging chamber.  These recesses are simply access recesses to the fixingnuts for the pistoncrowns and have as such nothing to do with the scavenging chamber, see my sketch below.
Tore
« Last Edit: 19 Feb , 2015, 05:08 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2487 on: 19 Feb , 2015, 11:59 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


The is interesting, as to how the piston crown was attached to the Compressor 1st and 2nd stage.  I don't believe I want to go that deep into the Junkers compressor in Skizzenbuch.  However, for my own knowledge this access looks like a means to disconnect the piston crown from the compressor's first two stages.  The piston crown burning and carbon deposits were a maintenance issue.  Just how far did the mechanic have to go in tearing down the Junkers compressor to remove and clean or replace the piston crowns?


Regards,
Don_







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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2488 on: 19 Feb , 2015, 12:19 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


One more question about the Junkers Compressor...  Did it have a piston sleeve to protect from wearing out the compressor casting?



That brings up an off-topic interesting question...  Junkers licensed Kohama to build the U-Boat compressor; were companies bound by International Law to respect the copyright laws even though the countries were at war?  Could the U.S. Department of Defense tell General Electric to build the compressor for American submarines; besides the Russians had stolen the Atom Bomb secrets from the U.S.?


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2489 on: 19 Feb , 2015, 14:28 »
Don.
I believe Kohama was a Japanese professor involved in the technique and that the licence was sold by Junkers to Kobe steel as an ordinary business agreement before the war.
Tore
« Last Edit: 19 Feb , 2015, 23:13 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2490 on: 19 Feb , 2015, 14:48 »
Don.
The Junker dieselpiston crowns were attached to the 1. and 4. stage compressor piston on one side and 2. and 3. stage piston on the other side. As the diesel piston crowns are in direct contact with the combustion and as such are exposed to substantially higher temperatures than the compression pistons they have to be of another alloy hence the separate pistoncrowns. For normal maintenance you did not have to disconnect the pistoncrowns. However the freepiston compressor was very susceptible to carbon deposit due to balancing. A clean Junker compressor could hang in a wire and run with not much movement, but in excess of 50 grammes unbalance would be almost useless as far as I remember. The piston have normal pistonrings a total of 4 and not sleeves.
Tore
« Last Edit: 19 Feb , 2015, 14:52 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2491 on: 19 Feb , 2015, 23:51 »
Don.
Your question on "piston sleeve". As you might know the conventional engines have conrods and crankshaft which create sideforces on the cylinder walls by the combustionforces on the piston. Smaller (and lower) engines are designed as trunk engines where these forces are distributed to the cylinderwall by the so called pistonskirts of the trunkpiston. On larger diesels  as large bore mainengines for ships, you have cross headengines where the sideforces are absorbed by the separate lubricated crosshead being a slide (shoe) outside the combustion cylinder and where the conrod is connected. However on a freepiston engine having no conrod and crankshaft there are no combustion sideforces. This is the big advantage of a freepiston engine, you avoid the friction of the side forces and the rotating parts, the elimination of the friction creates a higher mechanical efficiency and a more compact engine.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2492 on: 23 Feb , 2015, 23:53 »
Don.
Following up my post of February 19Th I am posting an image  below showing the air inlets to both the 1st. stage compressor and the combusting / scavenging air intake.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2493 on: 26 Feb , 2015, 21:56 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


The drawing does not match up well with the photo.  The savaging air filter looks to be attached to a cast manifold.  I guess the cast manifold could wrap around the back and make the connection at the bottom. The drawings indicate the savaging air intake is on the lower part of the compressor 1st stage.


In the photo there are two lines that are attached at the top; one on the forward casting air inlet 4th stage, and the other one is on the compressor 1st stage the 1st stage air outlet (or a cooling water outlet)?  Your bottom arrow is pointing to the 1st stage compressor air inlet which is at the casting location but internal beyond the 4th stage casting???


I believe the line near the red arrow is the cooling waterline to the 4th stage, and the smaller line goes to a pressure gauge (4th stage pressure?)....


How wrong am I...


Regards,
Don_
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2494 on: 27 Feb , 2015, 08:45 »
Don.
No, it does not match as the sketch is possibly made by the Kobe people and differ slightly from the Junker installed in the VII Cs. It was the best I had for showing the working principle of the Junker compressor.
I have made an image of the Junker installed in U-995 and making reference to the Kobe steel drawing for localizing the various pipes. You`ll see I have removed the scavenging inlet port and the first stage inlet as they don`t match the Kobe steel execution. I assume it is hard to localise the 1 stage outlet pipe and guess it could be a pipe underneath the compressor entering the 1. stage cooler situated under the compressor and placed at the casing at the same distance from the left end as the coolingwater entrance.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2495 on: 27 Feb , 2015, 16:46 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I'm not too concerned about the differences in the junkers compressor as such.  If you look at the Junkers compressor that was installed in U-570; it looks very different as well...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2496 on: 28 Feb , 2015, 01:23 »
Hi Tore,

I have a question about the antennas (please see the two attached pictures) of the conning tower. If you see my red circles and arrows you know what I mean. My question now, is this the accurate late war style to connect the antennas with the conning tower of a (late) typseven/41?

Thanks in advance

Falo

P.S.: I have caught the two pics from my photo report thread about U995, there are also some more conning tower pictures where you can see the antennas from a different angle if necessary for you.
http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=1150.0
« Last Edit: 28 Feb , 2015, 01:27 by falo »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2497 on: 28 Feb , 2015, 10:31 »
Falo.
I am really not fully conversant on this matter, but to me the museums U-995 antenna arrangement seems a bit odd. I know there were different solution, but to my knowledge the most common arrangement would be to let the antenna enter a steelpipe into the wintergarten  on the later VIICs and on the aft conning towerplatform on the earlier. Posting a few photos including one of KNM Kaura to illustrate what I mean.
Tore

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« Last Edit: 28 Feb , 2015, 12:48 by NZSnowman »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2499 on: 28 Feb , 2015, 13:01 »
Hi Tore, thanks for the quick information and the pictures. By seeing them now the U995 antenna solution looks really a little bit odd.


Thanks again and regards
Falo

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2501 on: 28 Feb , 2015, 13:27 »
Hi Tore

Here something I am sure you have see before ;D

http://www.ebay.de/itm/U-Boot-Steuerbord-Maschinentelegraf-aus-Typ-VII-U-Boot-Bj-1944-selten-/231487213511?pt=Militaria&hash=item35e5b68fc7

Some great detail photo's




Just 2999,-? A steal ;-)



OK, it look to me if we all put in $5 for the next 20 years, we should be able to build our own Type VII.
 
All we need to know who has the biggest backyard and how near is it to the sea  ;D

Offline Capt Kremin

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2502 on: 28 Feb , 2015, 14:32 »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
"Here's Peter Jason Quill, He's also called Starlord",
"Who calls him that?",
"Himself Mostly".

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2503 on: 28 Feb , 2015, 19:22 »



OK, it look to me if we all put in $5 for the next 20 years, we should be able to build our own Type VII.
 
All we need to know who has the biggest backyard and how near is it to the sea  ;D


Someone is funding his Bf-109 Replica by building each part several times and selling the spare parts on ebay.


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arsenal-45/129889520415326


http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rumpfteil-1-oben-Messerschmitt-Bf-109-G-/400859893995


Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2504 on: 01 Mar , 2015, 01:34 »
Simon.
Your excellent photo of the original enginetelegraph revealed perhaps one of the ways they are financing the maintenance of the poor old U-995. By the prices you achieve for old original parts no wonder why the original gauges like the depthgauges has disappeared. The photo of the engine telegraph is most probably the original telegraph for stb E motor as you see the encircled field "Laden" is on the right side. Moreover it says MT (E-motor) stb. The original telegraph in the controlroom has the astern scale on the left side and no MT. In fact if you compare the enginetelegraphs both in the controlroom and E-room you may see they are on present days U-995 exchanged by new ones deviating from the originals which can be easily identified by the outer dialrim having "dents". So all the engine telegraphs have been "nicked?"and substituted by new. 4x2999,- makes app. 12.000,- Euro a lot of temptations to remove the original parts not so good for the museumsvalue.
Tore
« Last Edit: 01 Mar , 2015, 01:45 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2505 on: 01 Mar , 2015, 06:39 »
Simon.
The engine telegraph for KNM Kaura had Norwegian text and the encircled field Laden was substituted by Diving. Otherwise astern was on both dials inboard and ahead outboard, indeed on your photograph from the control room both telegraphs are marked MT port and stb. whereas on KNM Kaura only port and stb. so it is possibly not nicked from the U-995. The strange thing is when they changed the telegraphs on the museum U-995 they made a different marking, astern marking came outboard and thus ahead inboard. I wonder why they changed the telegraphs and the ahead and astern on the dials as it is obviously wrong.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2506 on: 01 Mar , 2015, 16:23 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Well, you got me involved so beware of dumb questions... There are telegraph units in the tower, in the control room, in the engine room, and in the e-room.


Q1. I don't recall seeing any on the bridge, so was the voice tubes used with a flashing light switch or a buzzer to get the engine room operator's attention?


Q2. 2 telegraph units in all places?


Q3. Did the tower and control room telegraph units send to both the engine room and the e-room telegraphs at the same time?  I see no reason to differentiate...


Q4. I believe the telegraph units were different (design and labels) for port vs starboard units?
Q5. Were there differences between tower vs control room labels?
Q6. Were there differences between engine room vs e-room labels?

Additional info: The three-position switches on the distributing boxes made possible selecting the active
orders transmitter (in the conning tower or in control room).


- position 1 - transmitter in the control room is active; transmitter in the conning tower repeats the transmitted orders


- position 2 - transmitter in the conning tower is active; transmitter in the control room repeats the transmitted orders


- position 3 - transmitter in the control room is active; transmitter in the conning tower disabled


There were additional switches on the control boxes, which made possible disabling acoustic signaling devices (bells and buzzers) in case of silent running.

kind regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 01 Mar , 2015, 16:29 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2507 on: 02 Mar , 2015, 00:22 »
Don.
Q1. There are no telegraphs on the bridge. This was quite common on naval vessels at the time as they had an open bridge not only on the submarines. Orders were passed on via the tower hatch or voicepipe, depending on circumstances and weather, generally to the helmsman in the control room who operated the enginetelegraphs and normally did not pass on orders to the engineroom by voicepipes. Every time the enginetelegraph was operated, it activated both an acoustic alarm and a flashing red light in the engine room and E-room.

Q2. Every telegraph position had a separate telegraph for each shaft.

Q3. As far as I recall yes.

Q.4 The telegraphs were identical in design however as many components on a twin engine installation, in the engine room and controlroom port was a mirror execution of starboard as f.i. the astern markings were in both inboards. In the E-room I guess it was different, the starboard dial had astern on the right ( the port opposite) side thus towards aft at the switchboard maneuvering place, hence my assumption the Euro 2.999,- telegraph is possibly from the E-room.

Q.5. I don`t recall any difference.

Q.6. Same.

One final mark though, if you look at the photo of the engine telegraphs at the helmsman place in the KNM Kaura`s controlroom, you shall see a removable nameplate stating "Diesel" hanging on the nob of the port engine telegraph which means the order from the bridge is to run on diesel. On the substitute enginetelegraphs of the museum U-995 not only the dial rimring is different but there are no maneuvering knob as well.
Tore
« Last Edit: 02 Mar , 2015, 01:47 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2508 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 00:50 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


on Q1 -  I was thinking about a night surface attack where the helmsman was on the bridge controlling the rudder.  I guess they would use the voice tube to change speed.  However, the diesel engine room is noisy and in order to listen for the commands, I believe there had to be a signaling device; like a switch on the bridge to cause the lights in the engine room to flash to signal the diesel operator to check the voice tube for speed commands...


Regards,
Don_
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Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2509 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 01:08 »
Hi Don,

on Q1 -  I was thinking about a night surface attack where the helmsman was on the bridge controlling the rudder.  I guess they would use the voice tube to change speed.  However, the diesel engine room is noisy and in order to listen for the commands, I believe there had to be a signaling device; like a switch on the bridge to cause the lights in the engine room to flash to signal the diesel operator to check the voice tube for speed commands...

helmsman took the station at the bridge only when manoeuvring in harbour. During the night surface attack, his station was in the conning tower, and he received orders verbally through the open conning tower hatch. If he was on the bridge, it would be impractical: first - there was additional person on the crowded bridge, second - during the alarm dive, there had to be steering panel detached, moved with the cable to the conning tower, there attached again. It would take too long.

So the commanding officer passed the orders related with the speed and course verbally (through the hatch or voice tube) to the helmsman in the conning tower, and he set the issued order at the machine telegraph and change the course according to the order.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2510 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 03:18 »
Don-
Maciek put it right. In order to make the system of passing orders by voicepipes easy to understand I made the voicepipe sketch below.  It is only one voicepipe connection to the bridge. When you was cruising on surface in bad weather the top hatch was shut as the bridge was washed over by the sea which otherwise would flush down in the conningtower and controlroom . You reduced the people on the bridge to only officer of watch and an outlook. Communication was then via one voicepipe either to the conning tower and/or the control room (three locations). In the conningtower  the voicepipe orders could be passed on by separate voicepipes, (violet) to the controlroom, radio room and sonar room, the green to the CO., the yellow to control room and forward torpedoroom, blue to control room and aft torpedoroom. It is obvious that you could communicate to the same places from the controlroom as the conningtower, however in addition there was a voicepipes connection  pink to the aft torpedo room.
It might be of interrest to include the voicepipes in your Skizzenbuch as it clearly shows the system of ordercommunications
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2511 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 04:20 »
Don.
Your question referring to night attacks made me remembering a scene of the outstanding movie Das Boot. If you remember after the sinking of a tanker you have spectacular view of the burning tanker observed by not less than eighth people on the bridge. As far as I remember the movie should reflect on a situation in October 1941. The Royal Navy did a lot of efforts to develop counter attacks of the wolfpack tactics in the early forties. A very important element was the development of a naval 10 cm. radar for observing surfaced submarines. I guess a first test was made as early as 1938. The equipment got a priority for use on the convoy escort vessels and the first usable sets were installed on two corvettes April/May 1941. The other corvettes followed soon. I have my shelf served on one of these corvettes in 1948/49 with this radar which compared to to days standard was not great but usable within a range of 7000 meters. I don`t know how much the German submarine CO`s knew about this radar in October1941 but to me it seems like an incredible risk to observe this tanker surfaced with a crowded bridge of at least 8 people. I wonder where the Uboat tactic movie consultants have been.
Tore
« Last Edit: 03 Mar , 2015, 04:23 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2512 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 07:32 »
Hi Gentlemen,

I would guess, that during the night attack, the following persons would be at the bridge:
4 lookouts, commanding officer and torpedo officer - that would be 6 persons.

Regarding to the German awareness of allied radar in October 1941, here is some document:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/ASW-51/ASW-14.html
where in the paragraph 14.2.1 is stated that:
Quote
From the start of World War II, the Germans were fully aware of the possibilities of meter ASV radar and had developed their own airborne search equipment, but it was not until the summer of 1942 that they concluded that the Allies were using radar for U-boat search and initiated a hurried program for the development of search receivers to detect the radiations. The first equipment to be installed on U-boats was the R-600 or Metox with a low wavelength limit of 130 cm. It was of the heterodyne type, thought to be the only type capable of sufficient sensitivity, and so it radiated energy, a property which eventually caused its abandonment. Nevertheless, it was used with apparent success, and the conditions of its introduction and use are of considerable interest.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2513 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 08:18 »
Discussing about machine order telegraphs, I would like to mention one thing.
The type VIIC U-Boat manual (http://uboatarchive.net/Manual/Manual.htm) on page 181 describes the following item:
"Rudder order telegraph and rudder angle indicator system"

This piece of equipment is related with the emergency (hand) steering in case of main rudder electric control failure. In such situation, the helmsman took his station in the aft torpedo room, near the air compressors, at the emergency steering station. There was located the hand wheel for driving the main rudder. The helmsman took with him the detachable gyro-compass repeater, to know the current course.
As we know, the helmsman received two kinds of orders: heading order (i.e. "on course 71 deg" or "on east course") and rudder order (i.e. "hard port" or "15 degree starboard") related with the rudder angle. If the helmsman was in the aft torpedo room, the heading order was passed to him verbally. But rudder orders could be passed by means of the "Rudder order telegraph" which was coupled with the "Ruder angle indicator system".

The rudder order telegraph system consisted of (as described on page 181 of the manual) from the rudder angle indicator coupled with the rudder order transmitter located in the control room and from the rudder angle indicator coupled with the rudder order receiver located in the aft torpedo room.

Unfortunately, I have never seen any photo related with the type VIIC U-Boat, showing such system. Similarly, it can not be found on board of U995. I guess, that the simple rudder angle indicators (without rudder order transmitters and receivers) were installed due to cost/labour saving purposes.

However, such device can be observed on the board of U505. I have attached the photo "U505 main rudder order telegraph.jpg", which shows the rudder angle indicator with the rudder order transmitter. You can see two pointers (one above the other) - one showing the current rudder deflection, the second is the rudder order. Below, you can see the knob for setting the rudder order. The label at the bottom of the dial says: "Hauptrudder Telegrf Geber Lagenzeiger" that means "Main rudder order telegraph transmitter and indicator".

At the emergency steering station (in the aft torpedo room) was installed the similar unit, but without the knob.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2514 on: 03 Mar , 2015, 23:43 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I just could not let all the good info pass without updating Skizzenbuch.  I changed pages 186, 196, and 284.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox.  Please let me know if you approve...


Kind regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2515 on: 04 Mar , 2015, 02:38 »
Don.
I have no remarks. I cannot recall ever seen the rudder angle telegraph on any of our VIICs all commissioned after Sept. 1943. Contrary to the navigation order: steer or come to so many degrees, the rudderangle order was usually given during normal maneuvering and emergencies. Turning a small nob at the rudderangle dial seems to me to be a bit bothersome as the order was usually given verbally by the officer on watch directly to the helmsman requiring a quick action. As far as I recall we tested the emergency aft rudderoperation by using the telephone or the voicepipe port side aft of starboard main switchboard next to the emergency rudder helmsman.
Tore
« Last Edit: 04 Mar , 2015, 03:11 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2516 on: 04 Mar , 2015, 02:41 »
Hi Gentlemen,

I would like note one more thing, related with the rudder order telegraph/indicator.
If you look closer at this unit, you will see the label "Stromlos" at the
left edge of the dial. It is the "power failure (Stromlos) annunciator flag". When
the telegraph/indicator subsystem is powered, this flag is held by the electro-magnet
at the edge of the dial. When the power is off, the electro-magnet releases the flag,
which falls under its own weight to the dial centre. This simple system signalled the
operators, that the power is off, and the pointers are not necessary indicating the
desired values.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2517 on: 04 Mar , 2015, 03:02 »
Don and Maciek.
In addition to the powerfailure remark from Maciek it is perhaps worth while to mention if the electric rudder angle indicator fails it is like on the hydroplanes, a mechanical ( teleflex) angle indicator at the emergency steeringcolumn as can be seen on the image below. The electrical rudderindicator is on the top aft of port main switchboard.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2518 on: 04 Mar , 2015, 17:14 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I have many questions...


The rudder order telegraph system seems to only indicate the angle setting for the rudders and not the desired course.  For instance - submerged and a rudder electrical failure due to a depth charge attack.  If the command is 90 degrees to port, the rudder order telegraph only goes to 40 degrees (port or stb) and the manual states that maximum deflection is 35 degrees manually and 33 degrees under electrical power.  The rudder angle will determine the turning circle at which the U-Boat turns to port.  I believe the forward speed is a factor in this equation as well.


The commander gives the order for 90 degrees to port, but it looks like the helmsman would need to be trained to know what angle to set the rudders depending upon the forward speed to achieve the port 90 degree course with the greatest distance from the spot of the command.  Otherwise, if the command was "90 degrees hard to port", then the helmsman would know to apply full rudder angle.  Am I off on a tangent again?


The rudder order telegraph system doesn't seem as useful as I initially thought it would be and I can see where the cost/benefit analysis scrapped the system.  Besides, how often did the U-Boat loose electrical rudder control.  I'm inclined to thing that if the U-Boat lost electrical rudder control, then the phone to the helmsman in the Aft torpedo room would be the best line of communication.


Now for a few questions about the rudder order telegraph system...


Q1.  Once they send a rudder order say 15 degrees to the helmsman in the aft torpedo room.  Do they then sent a zero degree setting? 


Q2.  I was thinking about the control room sending a 2nd command for another 15 degree rudder change.  How do they accomplish this change so the helmsman knows this is a 2nd command?


Q3.  This system just provides the rudder angle...  How does the helmsman get the actual course command from the commander?  By voice tube, by phone, or by crewmen repeating the command?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2519 on: 04 Mar , 2015, 22:28 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I updated Skizzenbuch and used your photo of the Aft helmsman's station with the telephone (I like that info!)...


updated pages 183, and 196.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2520 on: 05 Mar , 2015, 00:16 »
Don.
I don`think any responsible navigator would use the term 90 degrees rudderangle. The order would be hard port or starboard the helmsman who would keep the steeringknob down till the rudder limitswitch stops the rudder at the preset max angle. If you want to turn on a nickel you used the propellers one full ahead the other full astern. A change in sailing course could be just a new compass figure and leave it to the experienced helmsman to come to that course using an appropriate rudder angle. In the event of an inexperienced helmsman you guide him by giving rudder angle orders which could be 5 degrees to port, when the boat start turning and approaching the new course the officer of watch order midships followed by steer so-so many degrees. As  said before in an emergency to avoid a collision or as in my time a drifting mine, you immediately gave the order directly to the helmsman hard port (or starboard) in those cases I believe fiddling with an order knob on the rudderangle indicator could be a dangerous delay and voicepipe would be used.
I cannot comment on the details of the rudderangle knob as I never saw same on any of our VIICs.
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Mar , 2015, 00:46 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2521 on: 05 Mar , 2015, 00:32 »
Hi Don,

The rudder order telegraph system seems to only indicate the angle setting for the rudders and not the desired course.  For instance - submerged and a rudder electrical failure due to a depth charge attack.  If the command is 90 degrees to port, the rudder order telegraph only goes to 40 degrees (port or stb) and the manual states that maximum deflection is 35 degrees manually and 33 degrees under electrical power.  The rudder angle will determine the turning circle at which the U-Boat turns to port.  I believe the forward speed is a factor in this equation as well.

The command "90 degrees to port" is related to the course directly. So if you are on the course 145 degrees, the helmsman changes the course to the 55 degrees. The rudder order telegraph was to be used only to pass the rudder deflection orders.
The course orders were to be passed verbally. So if you want to change the course from 145 degrees to "90 degrees to port" using the rudder telegraph only, you would have to set the value "30 degrees port" (for instance - it would depend how fast you want to get to the new course). The helmsman set the rudder to this value. Then, you (as the commander in the control room) are watching the gyro-compass and when the boat closes to the course 55 degrees, you gradually decrease the rudder deflection on the telegraph.

You have to remember, that helmsman at the emergency steering station had its own gyro-repeater (the unit from the control room), connected to the socket in the aft torpedo room (see the plan 16 in the Skizzenbuch you have received from Cuxhaven).

The rudder order telegraph system doesn't seem as useful as I initially thought it would be and I can see where the cost/benefit analysis scrapped the system.  Besides, how often did the U-Boat loose electrical rudder control.  I'm inclined to thing that if the U-Boat lost electrical rudder control, then the
phone to the helmsman in the Aft torpedo room would be the best line of communication.

Well, indeed it doesn't seem to be  very useful. However, I can imagine that it was designed to use in the combat, silent running conditions. The "U-Boat commander handbook" (http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm) says, that when being pursued by enemy, the silent running order was issued. Then the all unnecessary machines were switched off and the main rudder and diving planes were controlled manually. All the voice communication had to be reduced to minimum. In such situation (while doing evasion manoeuvres) the exact course steering was less important than the relative course changes. So passing the rudder orders by telegraph (not verbally) would make sense. But these are only my assumptions.

Q1.  Once they send a rudder order say 15 degrees to the helmsman in the aft torpedo room.  Do they then sent a zero degree setting?

They set the telegraph to zero degree. Generally, helmsman had to always make the rudder angle indicator pointer follows the rudder order telegraph pointer.

Q2.  I was thinking about the control room sending a 2nd command for another 15 degree rudder change.  How do they accomplish this change so the helmsman knows this is a 2nd command?

As long the first command was issued (set to telegraph), the main rudder was deflected by this angle. So second rudder change was senseless.

Q3.  This system just provides the rudder angle...  How does the helmsman get the actual course command from the commander?  By voice tube, by phone, or by crewmen repeating the command?

All three ways could be used. I would prefer repeating by crewman chain (as it would be most silent way).

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2522 on: 05 Mar , 2015, 05:53 »
VIIC Telephones.
Puzzled by the telegraph question and the rudder angle order system adviced by Maciek, I checked the excellent manual Uboatinformation for Type VIIC , year of construction 1939 effective July 15 1940   donated by Don translated by Maciek. In chapter V the various communications are described, both acoustic, electronic and visual. Internal communication by loadspeaker is mentioned, but as far as I can see not the telephone system. Further when looking at photos of older VIICs on the locations where you have the telephones on the later VIICs, you do not find the phones as on the image below where you see a photo of der Fuehrer on the place where you should expect to see a phone. As the phones were a very important communication link I believe they definitely should be mentioned under communication in the manual, I wonder if same was not installed on the early VIICs but introduced in the later execution  and as a consequence the rudder angle order knob was removed on the late VIICs. As far as I could check U 570 ( commisioned May15.th 1941) had the voicepowered telephones installed allthough of a different design and placed partly on other places than on U 995.
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Mar , 2015, 13:35 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2523 on: 05 Mar , 2015, 13:02 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


Thank you for all this great info...  Mr. Tore what U-Boat is that in the photo where the phone was not there?  And one question off topic just for my personal info; was there ever a instance where an Escort Destroyer was on a depth charge run against a U-Boat, and a second U-Boat in a Wolf Pack took the Eccort Destroyer out by torpedo?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2524 on: 05 Mar , 2015, 22:40 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


After reading Maciek's info about the Rudder Order Telegraph system and the use in the silent running mode; I was convinced that the system was indeed a handy thing to have on-board the U-Boat.  I made the photos smaller on page 196 of Skizzenbuch, so I could add the text info provided by Maciek.  (Thank you again Maciek for my education lesson for the day!).  I placed the latest version of Skizzenbuch in dropbox...


Regards,
Don_



A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2525 on: 06 Mar , 2015, 01:05 »
Hi Gentlemen,

Puzzled by the telegraph question and the rudder angle order system adviced by Maciek, I checked the excellent manual Uboatinformation for Type VIIC , year of construction 1939 effective July 15 1940   donated by Don translated by Maciek. In chapter V the various communications are described, both acoustic, electronic and visual. Internal communication by loadspeaker is mentioned, but as far as I can see not the telephone system. Further when looking at photos of older VIICs on the locations where you have the telephones on the later VIICs, you do not find the phones as on the image below where you see a photo of der Fuehrer on the place where you should expect to see a phone. As the phones were a very important communication link I believe they definitely should be mentioned under communication in the manual, I wonder if same was not installed on the early VIICs but introduced in the later execution  and as a consequence the rudder angle order knob was removed on the late VIICs. As far as I could check U 570 ( commisioned May15.th 1941) had the voicepowered telephones installed allthough of a different design and placed partly on other places than on U 995.

I was also puzzled, when I had not found description of the voice-powered telephone in the type VIIC manual. I'm sure I have been reading about it somewhere...

Indeed, in the document effective on July 15 1940, the voice-powered telephone is not mentioned. The only electrical system for passing orders was the "Broadcast and announcement system" ("Lautschprecheanlage"). As described in the manual, it consisted of the central control unit (with the amplifier) in the radio room and speakers in every U-Boat compartment. To the control unit in the radio room there can be connected a record player or radio-receiver and the music from the record or radio could be broadcast through the boat. In the same way, the microphone could be connected and the announcement could also be passed through the boat.

But this system could also be used for communicating between the battle stations. For this reason, in several  places of the boat were installed terminals for connecting the headphones and the microphones. These terminals were in the aft torpedo room, E-motor room, control room, conning tower, officers room and forward torpedo room.
On the board of U995 the terminals are visible, but unfortunately without the headsets.

This system required to be powered for operation.

Some details on this system you can find in the section "II. General Announcing System" of the type IXC Design Study (http://uboatarchive.net/Design/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm).



(speaker in the control room of U570)

A Tore mentioned, the British report on U570 and his experience from KNM Kaura provide the information about second voice communication system (not present or mentioned in the 1940 manual) - the voice powered telephone.

Generally it consisted of several units located in the forward and aft torpedo room, control room and diesel engine room. In contrast to the broadcasting system, it did not require the power to operate. On the board of U995 you can see these units, but unfortunately, they are without the hand-sets. One note - the telephone unit in the forward torpedo room is not original (German war-time).

Some details on this system you can find in the section "III. Ship's Telephone Systems" of the type IXC Design Study (http://uboatarchive.net/Design/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm).

And one more thing - the report on U570 also mention about rudder order telegraph.


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Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2526 on: 06 Mar , 2015, 06:33 »
Maciek and Don.
I checked the voicepowered telephones a bit further. First of all a correction, on the photos taken by the US navy of U 570 the helmsmans place item B is marked as telephone. I don`t think this is correct, it is possibly an electrical coupling/ fusebox. The shutting handle could resemble a phone, see my image.
 I have, in my private collection, a photo of the lower part of the phone in the controlroom of KNM Kaura, taken 1954 and I believe this is the original phone. If you compare this to the phone of fwd torpedo room of U 505 provided by Maciek, I guess we can consider they are of the same type. U 505 a IXC, was commission in Aug. 1941and had the same phone as U 995 a VIIC/41. The phones on the museum U-995 is possibly not the original allthough they looks very much the same apart from the lower support for the microphone.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2527 on: 06 Mar , 2015, 07:43 »
Don.
I see I forgot to answere your question which boat substituted the telephone with Der Fuehrer. Sorry I don`t know which Uboat the photo refers to it was a common photo on the net.

Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2528 on: 07 Mar , 2015, 13:12 »
Hello Mr.Tore and Maciek,


I'm going to add 2 more pages to Skizzenbuch to include all the info on the announcement system and the phone system.  Obviously the announcement system with speakers and head sets required an A/C motor generator, so this could not be used during silent running.  However the phone system looks to be DC powered and could be used during silent running.  Am I correct about the differences?


The phone receivers had the small crank and was it to get the attention of the receiver calling location?  I believe it was a buzzer OR a physical indicator (light or what)?  I'm not sure about which....


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2529 on: 07 Mar , 2015, 14:27 »
Hi Don,

Obviously the announcement system with speakers and head sets required an A/C motor generator, so this could not be used during silent running.

The power requirements can be seen in the type IXC design study: the amplifier was powered by 220 V AC.


However the phone system looks to be DC powered and could be used during silent running.  Am I correct about the differences?


The phone system is not powered by any external power source. The voice converted into the electric signal was not amplified in any way, the signaling (getting receiver attention) was done by hand-driven small AC generator at each unit.

The phone receivers had the small crank and was it to get the attention of the receiver calling location?  I believe it was a buzzer OR a physical indicator (light or what)?


From the design study: the buzzer for audible signal and in parallel with buzzer the visual indicator. The hand crank driven magnetic type generator, which was used to power the buzzer and visual indicator at receiver side.

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Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2530 on: 07 Mar , 2015, 19:38 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


First, I would like to thank Maciek for the quick response to my questions about the phone receiver...  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox.  I added pages 198 and 199 with the Broadcast and Announcement system, and the phone system.  Then I did the usual indexing and page number changes.  I believe Skizzenbuch is about completed for now.  Unless, of course, something else comes up where there is an information gap...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2531 on: 09 Mar , 2015, 04:19 »
VIICs after WW2.
At the surrender 8. of May 1945 a total of 156 remainding U boats were scattered in various places, a substantial part of these were VIICs. The majorities of the uboats ended in Norway, a total of 96 consisting of various types. The three major allied countries kept some of  these boats mainly XXI for further investigation and were scrapped afterwards. The majority of the rest were destructed and sunk in operation Deadlight. However a few survived Deadlight and were in active service till early 1960. One VIIC in the French Navy and three in the Norwegian navy. One of the latter, KNM Kya ex. U-926 was modernized and got a "sail". Probably the only VIIC in this modern version. Below is an image showing KNM Kya in her old and new execution.
Tore
« Last Edit: 09 Mar , 2015, 05:33 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2532 on: 10 Mar , 2015, 00:47 »
Hi Tore,


thank you for interesting information and pictures.
French type VIIC U-Boat Laubie (ex-U 766) was also modernized (after collision in 1950).




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Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2533 on: 10 Mar , 2015, 06:10 »
Maciek.
I was not aware of Laubies modernizing and thanks for the images. As far as I remember she was involved in collisions two times and the latest caused her to be scrapped. We had two of our submarineofficers sailing with her in the early 50- ties in order to exchange experiences in the VII Cs operation, but I don`t believe there was any cooperation in the modernising. As far as I can judge there is a big difference between the modern design of Kya and Laubie.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2534 on: 10 Mar , 2015, 20:42 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


The type VII U-Boats that had the modern bridge/sail in the 50's; did that make any improvement in the maximum submerged speed?  I would think the modern sail would present less forward resistance?


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2535 on: 11 Mar , 2015, 01:17 »
Don.
I don`t have any figures, but if you compare the tower and wintergarten on the late WW2 VII Cs with the latest modernisation of KNM Kya I think it is obvious that the drag is much less on the latter. To days sail or dorsal fin is highly streamlined as the rest of a modern submarine, but much of the functions of the VII Cs tower are removed into the controlroom and the fin is more like a bridge and a dorsal stabiliser rather than  tower . In my time we started in rebuilding the conventional wintergarten and removing the scepters, not only to reduce the drag but lower the noise submerged as well. However as you know the submerged speed of the VII Cs was not very high in any case.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 Mar , 2015, 01:19 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2536 on: 13 Mar , 2015, 13:39 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


The type VII U-Boats that had the modern bridge/sail in the 50's; did that make any improvement in the maximum submerged speed?  I would think the modern sail would present less forward resistance?


Regards,
Don_

I remember reading somewhere that someone run some Fluid dynamics software test on the Type VIIC’s. He said that most of the drag was causes by the open bridge of the Type VIIC’s and that the wintergarten had little effect on the drag.

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2537 on: 13 Mar , 2015, 21:03 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Simon,


I found 3 drawings and 1 photo...  #1 - English, #2 - Italian (Work on the bridge of the KYA (U926). This aerodynamic conversion was suggested by von Haggstadt in 1959. #3 - Norwegian (K-class or conversion).


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 14 Mar , 2015, 13:22 by Don Prince »
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2538 on: 14 Mar , 2015, 01:20 »
Dorsal fin.
Simon I think it is correct that one of the main drags submerged is caused by the open bridge on the VIIC. Don has shared a few interesting images showing the design of the tower conversion by the Norwegian naval architect and engineer in chief of our submarine designs Kåre Hegstad ( not von Hegstadt) I knew him very well and he developed a new tower design including a telescopic schnorchel mast for our U (V) class UK built submarines in my time ( image below). Later he started to do the same with our VIICs only to finish KNM Kya before he involved himshelf in the development of a total new submarinedesign in cooperation with German designers ending up with our brand new Kobbenclass in the 60 ties which relieved our VIICs and U class.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2539 on: 15 Mar , 2015, 23:58 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Do you know if Kya (U-926) ever has the updated sail/bridge modernized?  I found a photo of Kya, and it looks like someone doctored this photo to created Kya with a updated sail...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2540 on: 16 Mar , 2015, 00:37 »
Don.
I don`t know where you got your Kya 2 image but it is a fake. Somebody manipulated an old photo of KNM Kinn ex. U 1202 and put a dorsal fin on her, changed the pennant no. from S 308 to S 307 pretending she was the Kya, see my images below. The real fin of the modernised Kya was slightly different as she kept the hinged schnorchel in a recess in the fin.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2541 on: 16 Mar , 2015, 21:32 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


It's hard to understand why someone would fake information on the net like that.  I guess it takes all kinds of idiots!  I'm glad I caught it because I don't want false information in Skizzenbuch.  I updated Skizzenbuch and page 432 is about Kya and it's modified dorsal fin/sail..


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2542 on: 17 Mar , 2015, 01:15 »
Don.
I have read your last amendment to your Skizzenbuch and have a few remarks. I know there are information referring to different sources that U 926 surrendered in UK and later transferred to Norway. This is not true. Correct story is given by Aircommodore Derek Waller in his paper U boat in Norway post 8th . May 1945. U-926 surrendered in Bergen May 8th. 1945. All the 96 Uboats surrendering in Norway was soonest possible transferred to Scotland apart from 7 Uboats which were declared unfit for sea. Among these were U-995, U-1202 and U-926. The reason that U-926 was not seaworthy was they had overstressed her MBT 3 creating structural damage to the pressurehull. This damaged was caused by a mistake when blowing the tank by her own crew at the end of WW2. I have personally inspected the tank and the repair carried out. She was commissioned as our first VIIC and was an operational submarine (not training or research) 10. January 1949. She was my 2ND and last VIIC in 1954.
Tore
« Last Edit: 17 Mar , 2015, 01:46 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2543 on: 17 Mar , 2015, 05:53 »
Don.
Further to my previous remarks on KNM Kya, your drawing showing Kya with dorsal fin is strange as it shows a port casingside of a 1942 execution on starboard side omitting the anchorbay and the correct floodgatepattern as well as the submerged exhaustoutlet. A common mistake made on several sideview drawings of the VIICs,  including the one you show is the Kingston arrangement for MBT 3. MBT 3 has three Kingstons on each side two in pairs forward and one aft. Somehow people like to make double pairs on both sides. See my image below.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2544 on: 17 Mar , 2015, 11:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Submerged exhaust outlet?  Was that something new?  I don't recall a exhaust outlet of that type on a type VIIC...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2545 on: 17 Mar , 2015, 13:03 »
Don.
There are several types of exhaust outlets, I believe Simon has made a list telling which Uboat has the various outlets. As far as I remember all our VIICs had the submerged type.The image below shows the damaged U-510 having the submerged type and the KNM Kaura having same. However the museum U 995 was rebuild with the air exhaustoutlet which can be seen on the image below as well.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2546 on: 17 Mar , 2015, 18:14 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you for the info about Kya and the exhaust outlet below the water line.   I updated page 432 in Skizzenbuch and uploaded it to dropbox...
Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2547 on: 18 Mar , 2015, 01:17 »
Don.
I have checked your last issue of the Skizzenbuch. I guess your assumption that the crew of U 926 deliberately damaged the U boat is not according to fact. In order to understand the cicumstances I shall give you a breafing. Following Hitlers suicide in April 1945 Grossadmiral Karl Dønitz, admiral of the submarines became the new Fuehrer. The situation in Germany was hopeless,but in Norway he had a full war equipped army of 300.000 men plus 87 fully equipped uboats being a considerable threat to the allies. Therefore as late as 4. May 1945 the orders from Befehlshaber der Unterseeboote (BdU )was issued:  Norway  is the headquarter of the Uboats operational control, the war goes on. It looked as if Dønitz had desperate plans to continue fighting out from Norway. On the continent scuttlings of uboats took place. (Operation rainbow), but not in Norway were everything was in control.
 The overstressing of U-926s pressurehull took place early April 1945 and at that time it would be a treason to deliberately destroy an Uboat. A fully functional Naval high command would prosecute the responsible person for such an action with deathpenalty as a consequence for the guilty people involved.  No such penalty took place so I guess the high command concluded it was an accident caused by inexeperienced crew and possibly a faulty reliefvalve causing the dammage.
Kindly note U 926 was not a sister uboat to U-995 as U-926 was a VIIC and 995 a VIIC/41.
Tore
« Last Edit: 18 Mar , 2015, 01:29 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2548 on: 18 Mar , 2015, 11:56 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Perhaps a Step-Sister Ship - Once Removed?  I'm just joking of course...  Thank you for the correct information on U-926 Kya.  One question - after the repairs to the pressure hull, were there any diving depth restrictions imposed on Kya?


I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2549 on: 19 Mar , 2015, 00:23 »
Don.
Last update of the Skizzenbuch OK. Kya did not get any restriction as to max. diving depth officially. However we imposed unofficially testdiving to 100m nevertheless we accidentally touched the 115m mark without any problems.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2550 on: 20 Mar , 2015, 03:34 »
The big contrast from suddenly leaving the rough stormy surface and in a matter of seconds to be submerged in the calm quite sea was something you really had to experience to understand. This has inspired me to make paintings which I have put together in an image below, showing a 1953 fantasy situation of KNM Kaura crossing the normally rough Westfjord near Lofoten islands in Northern Norway meeting the old express steamer s/s Lofoten and underneath Kaura in a snorting mode in the same area, enclosed in the green Arctic sea. As the weather on the surface image was not suitable for snorting I "calmed" the lower image weather.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2551 on: 20 Mar , 2015, 12:39 »
The big contrast from suddenly leaving the rough stormy surface and in a matter of seconds to be submerged in the calm quite sea was something you really had to experience to understand. This has inspired me to make paintings which I have put together in an image below, showing a 1953 fantasy situation of KNM Kaura crossing the normally rough Westfjord near Lofoten islands in Northern Norway meeting the old express steamer s/s Lofoten and underneath Kaura in a snorting mode in the same area, enclosed in the green Arctic sea. As the weather on the surface image was not suitable for snorting I "calmed" the lower image weather.
Tore

Tore, great painting! Are they oil?

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2552 on: 20 Mar , 2015, 12:46 »
Simon The upper is an oil my 2nd oilpainting of Kaura still a bit unfinished, the lower is a computersketch to be oilpainted later.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2553 on: 20 Mar , 2015, 18:56 »
Hello Mr Tore,


Excellent art work; you are a man of many talents!  I updated page 426 and 427 of Skizzenbuch and uploaded it to dropbox.  I hope you approve...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2554 on: 21 Mar , 2015, 01:46 »
Don.
You may use the painting, however as you have stretched it, the bow and tower is a bit out of proportion particularly the bow is far to pointed. As the sea is OK I have corrected the bow and tower on your stretched version, you better use this image for your Skizzenbuch. By a mistake of me, the steamer on the image is S/S Finmarken and not Lofoten.
Tore
« Last Edit: 21 Mar , 2015, 02:38 by tore »

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2555 on: 21 Mar , 2015, 20:10 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thank you for correcting my error (I do apologize!)...  At this point, I believe "Skizzenbuch" is finished!  I haven't made any large additions for quite awhile.  I have two publishers looking at Skizzenbuch; Pen and Sword (UK), and Schiffer Publishing (US).  I can't say for sure my Skizzenbuch will ever be published because of the format (Huge 11 x 17) and a quite unknown author (me!).  However. if the book gets published, I am obligated to send 2 copies to u-historia.com (Owner and Artist) for the use of their line drawings.  In addition, a copy will be sent to you and Maciek because I could not have written/assembled Skizzenbuch without all the help from you gentlemen!


I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch into dropbox...


Kind regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2556 on: 22 Mar , 2015, 01:54 »
Don.
At the finishing point of your Skizzenbuch I wish you all the luck in your endeavour of a publishing attempt. It has become an unique book of a special topic and allthough not dealing with the interest of the masses, it would be a prime dictionary for those who shares the interest for the VIIC being by far the largest number of a submarinetype ever built.
Keep us posted.
Tore 

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2557 on: 23 Mar , 2015, 00:32 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


Upon Maciek's suggestion, I have added 6 pages (290 - 295) to the Torpedo section about the TDC.  Maciek has done some extraordinary work on the web site http://tvre.org/en/home-page which covers all aspects of targeting.  I had to limit the info used to some general knowledge on the TDC because I didn't want the reader of Skizzenbuch to have to pull out his/her High School Trigonometry book as a reference.  However, I did point them to the web site if they want the in depth details.


I have uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2558 on: 24 Mar , 2015, 09:20 »
Hi Tore,

when you served on board of Norwegian submarines, did you sail on Arctic waters?

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Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2559 on: 24 Mar , 2015, 09:27 »
Maciek.
Most of the time we operated north of the Artic circle and as I previously adviced we did a schnorchling test 28 days submerged from Bergen around Iceland almost to Greenland and back.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2560 on: 24 Mar , 2015, 10:01 »
Tore, do you remember the navigational issues? While schnorcheling for 28 days, I guess you have to dead-reckoning (no inertial navigation aids?).

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Maciek

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2561 on: 24 Mar , 2015, 11:42 »
Maciek.
As you know I am not a navigator and my knowledge on the matter is limited, but I called my friend and No1 on Kaura during this schnorcheling and he told me the main tool for the navigation was the echosounder. We had very extensive charts showing fairly accurate depths in addition to detailed current data and occasional star observation. But the main navigation tool apart from the compass was the echosounder.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2562 on: 24 Mar , 2015, 15:22 »
Hi Tore,

As you know I am not a navigator and my knowledge on the matter is limited, but I called my friend and No1 on Kaura during this schnorcheling and he told me the main tool for the navigation was the echosounder. We had very extensive charts showing fairly accurate depths in addition to detailed current data and occasional star observation. But the main navigation tool apart from the compass was the echosounder.

Thank you very much for your answer. The occasional star observations were done through the periscope or while surfacing for a moment?

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2563 on: 24 Mar , 2015, 15:33 »
Maciek.
Very few starobservations through the navigation periscope, we never surfaced, that was a part of the test.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2564 on: 25 Mar , 2015, 01:08 »
Very few starobservations through the navigation periscope, we never surfaced, that was a part of the test.

Tore, thank you for the answer.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2565 on: 25 Mar , 2015, 17:14 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I updated Skizzenbuch with the FAT hardware photos provided by Maciek in the torpedo section.  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Mr. Tore, your navigator must have had good maps and much better than the following navigator and captain in the US Nuclear submarine that hit a mountain....


The commander of the USS San Francisco, Kevin Mooney, has not been relieved of duty while the investigation of the accident continues.
Mooney could be relieved of duty if officials determine there is enough evidence that the accident could have been averted.
The investigation will look at the sub's speed, its location and whether the undersea formation was on navigational charts, officials said.
The submarine was traveling in excess of 33 knots -- about 35 mph --when its nose hit the undersea formation head-on, officials said.
The nuclear submarine docked Monday at a U.S. naval base in Guam, a spokesman with the U.S. Pacific Fleet said.
The San Francisco was escorted to port by U.S. Navy and Coast Guard vessels, according to Lt. j.g. Adam Clampitt. The submarine suffered "some external damage," he said.
"The injured sailors are being treated at a U.S. military medical facility on Guam and will be transferred to other facilities -- possibly Pearl Harbor in Hawaii or Okinawa in Japan -- as necessary," Clampitt said.
According to a military statement, the injuries included "broken bones, lacerations, bruises and a back injury."
The accident occurred about 350 miles (560 kilometers) south of Guam, the U.S. Navy said. There were 137 crew on board at the time of the accident.
Machinist Mate 2nd Class Joseph Allen Ashley, 24, of Akron, Ohio, died Sunday from injuries suffered in the accident, Clampitt said. "The Navy continues to offer its sincerest condolences and prayers to the family and friends of Petty Officer Ashley," he said.
Navy sources said the submarine was en route to Brisbane, Australia, for a port visit at the time of the accident. There was no damage to the sub's nuclear reactor, according to Clampitt.

Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2566 on: 26 Mar , 2015, 03:01 »
Don
Yes, the charts were excellent don`t forget the area had been used since the viking times by Norwegian sailors and fishingmen for centuries, particularly the various heavy currents was known. You story of USS San Francisco raise an interesting question how much damage would a neutral buoyancy submarine suffer from a collision with a rock? I guess as the size of the impact would depend of the inertia massforces the speed would be the ruling factor and at to days submerged speeds in excess of 30 knots the massforces would be considerable. However the VIIC had a very modest submerged speed and in fact on one of the last WW2 missions, U-995 hit a rock. The story is: in the latter part of 1944, the German army retracted from Finland and into the northern Norwegian county of Finmark burning every town and house on their way. The Soviet troops followed and occupied the county. The Norwegian exile government in London decided to send freigthers with food supply to the population in the area and the cargo was unloaded in the incinerated town of Kirkenes. In February 1945, U-995 with Hess as the last German CO was in the area having orders to go after the allied convoys to Murmansk. Hess however decided  to attack a Norwegian freighter m/s Iddefjord laying in the harbour of the Kirkenes. Hess`idea was to approach the freighter semi submerged only the tower above the surface. Before they got in to position they hit an underwater rock shelf and got stuck at an big awkward angle, bow up. U-995 was not damaged but as she was in a fairly steep angle the was a risk of sliding astern and damage the propellers and rudders. She could not blow her tanks and surface as she would the be discovered. They waited in this position till dark and surfaced without being discovered and fired 3 torpedoes. Hess heard the detonations and recorded a sinking. However the torpedoes hit the rocks and m/s Iddefjord was undamaged as well as U 995.
Tore
« Last Edit: 26 Mar , 2015, 03:19 by tore »

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2567 on: 26 Mar , 2015, 03:12 »
…how much damage would a neutral buoyancy submarine suffer from a collision with a rock?



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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2568 on: 26 Mar , 2015, 03:21 »
Lucky they did`t have the Kursk type torpedoer ;D
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2569 on: 26 Mar , 2015, 05:15 »
hydrogen peroxide "fat girls"..
« Last Edit: 26 Mar , 2015, 05:24 by SG »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2570 on: 27 Mar , 2015, 07:36 »
Wooden dinghy/ containers.
Storage space under the casingdeck was cramped and one of the most suitable space for a non inflatable boat/raft was port side between the fwd. torpedoloading hatch and the capstan. As the torpedo loading hatch was placed off center to stb. and the pressurehull tapered, the height to the casingdeck was increased. As far as I can see this space was used for a wooden dinghy until 1943. As from 1944 there are no sign of the dinghy and the space is taken by four pressurecontainers of which the fwd. is the deepest. I assume this container was used for an inflatable dinghy which possibly substituted the wooden dinghy. U 995 did not have containers during WW2 but got 2 under Norwegian flag. She had 4 when she was restored in Germany 1970. Today the museum U 995 does not have containers. It is strange that the the Haynes workshop manual on their front page has a sketch showing a late war VIIc with 4 containers misplaced too far to the bow.
Tore
« Last Edit: 27 Mar , 2015, 07:38 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2571 on: 29 Mar , 2015, 18:54 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


Upon Maciek's suggestion, I have added 8 pages (426 - 434) covering the Echolot, Radio Equipment, the Listening Room, and the Radio Room. I placed the latest version of Skizzenbuck in dropbox. 


If there are any issues with the latest version, then please let me know...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2572 on: 30 Mar , 2015, 00:22 »
Don. Echolot.
As you see from my answer to Maciek question on the echolot the equipment, it was an important instrument to be used for navigation. Today with satelite navigation and previously Decca and Loran, it is easy to forget the old important navigation system as sounding. In the age of the sailingship,  navigation in difficult water was carried out by lead and line by a man in the bow reporting to the captain. In the Northsea Channel as well as other difficult areas they covered the lead with grease or wax which made it possible to take samples of the sea bottom  to the surface.  They were able, by looking at the gravel,sand, clay or mud, to determine the position of the ship . As mentioned we had very good charts with depth contoure lines which made the echolot the most important navigation aid for submerged navigation.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2573 on: 30 Mar , 2015, 15:33 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I added some information on S-Gerät and 2 photos on page 430 and uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2574 on: 31 Mar , 2015, 05:38 »
Don.
Looking into your last Skizzenbuch I accidentally discovered a wrong detail on page 416. On the Schnorchelmast you have used one of Simons old drawings which shows the raising arm operated by the hydraulic cylinder in a wrong position when the mast is upright. This has been discussed earlier on this thread and corrected by Simon as per the sketch below.
I don`t think we should let Simon take the blame for a wrong drawing. ;D
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2575 on: 31 Mar , 2015, 22:18 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


Great catch on the schnorchel ram arm wrong positing Mr. Tore.  Since Simon is our good buddy we'll give him a "Mulligan" on this one.  In the game of golf a Mulligan is a do-over!  I used part of your drawing and modified it.  I needed space for the combination drawing you previously did for me.


I modified the S-Gerät section per Maciek's suggestions with the info he provided.   I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to drop box, and please let me know if I got something wrong...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2576 on: 01 Apr , 2015, 01:36 »
Happy easter!

Offline Capt Kremin

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2577 on: 01 Apr , 2015, 03:22 »
Hi all,
That sums up the Royal  Navy K Class
Regards
Jon
"Here's Peter Jason Quill, He's also called Starlord",
"Who calls him that?",
"Himself Mostly".

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2578 on: 02 Apr , 2015, 00:33 »
Don.
Your last update on the schnorchel seems OK.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2579 on: 02 Apr , 2015, 18:41 »
Hello Mr. Tore.


I modified the drawing of the schnorchel ram arm because it didn't look right to me...  I believe it may be closer to correct.  Your opinion?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2580 on: 03 Apr , 2015, 00:07 »
Don.
It is fine, below is Simons excellent drawing with my scribbles showing 3 positions of the Schnorchelmast raising.
Tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2581 on: 04 Apr , 2015, 03:18 »
Hi Tore,


just another type-seven question. The annotation on the drawing (red circle) stated that the capstan should be removed during war patrols (german: "demontiert bei Fronteinsatz"). Do you know if that is correct resp. if that order was followed? Because looking at u boat pictures or television documentaries many boats had not dismantled the capstans.


Thanks in advance and best regards
Falo

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2582 on: 04 Apr , 2015, 06:27 »
Falo.
The capstan was removable, however we usually kept it in place. I believe most of the VIICs removed it during warpatrol. Below is a  photo showing U 278 returning to Narvik Norway 9th. May 1945 from warpatrol having the capstan removed.  I guess many of the photos are shot in harbour and I guess most of the U boats would have the capstan fitted. In the end I should imagine it was up to the CO.to order it fitted or not. 
Tore
« Last Edit: 04 Apr , 2015, 06:45 by tore »

Offline falo

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2583 on: 04 Apr , 2015, 07:38 »
Hi Tore,


thank you very much for the information.


Regards
falo

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2584 on: 04 Apr , 2015, 11:02 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I believe the electric motor to drive the capstan and the windless wench was located under the floor in the forward torpedo room.  Later the motor was moved to the ceiling to make room for the LUT control panel and lines to the torpedo tubes.   


What part of the capstan was removed and where was it stored?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 04 Apr , 2015, 11:05 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2585 on: 04 Apr , 2015, 21:44 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


U-278 does not have a KDB showing either...  And I checked some of my other U-Boat photos and some do show the KDB and others don't.  Was it possible to lower it because it was exposed to depth charge damage...?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2586 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 02:10 »
Don
Capstan.
I guess that most of the VIICs had a pneumatic motor situated below the deck between the torpedotubes having a mechanical rod drive up to the capstan gearbox. On some drawings this motor is described as an electric motor, I guess that could be a misunderstanding. Presumeably in the effort to reduce the increased weight of the VIICs/41 the rather heavy drive of this arrangement was substituted by the electric drive shown on U 995. However on most of the drawings including crossections drawings of the VIICs/41, the pneumatic motor and rod drive is maintained. I believe this is a mistake and that all the VIIC/41s had the electric drive, see my images below. It could however be that even the later VIICs got the electric drive as well.
 As we kept the capstan in place all the time, I cannot remember how it was dismantled, I should assume it was just the upper head that was removed and a simple dogclutch or even a square connection to the drive and locking nuts. A storage would probably be under the casing deck were we stored the scepters duly secured as well.
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Apr , 2015, 02:13 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2587 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 06:07 »
Hi Tore,

I guess that most of the VIICs had a pneumatic motor situated below the deck between the torpedotubes having a mechanical rod drive up to the capstan gearbox. On some drawings this motor is described as an electric motor, I guess that could be a misunderstanding. Presumeably in the effort to reduce the increased weight of the VIICs/41 the rather heavy drive of this arrangement was substituted by the electric drive shown on U 995.

Tore, are you sure that U995 was fitted with electric motor? I guess, that the weight reduction was not (would not be) so significant. Let's see: original, pneumatic motor: power 19HP (14 kW), weight 330 kg. Comparable electric motor (driving the main bilge pump): power 20/30 kW, weight 300 kg. I estimate, that weight reduction would be about 100/150 kg. Maybe it would be sufficent...
Moreover, the motor driving the capstan should be (was in case of pneumatic one) controlled from the upper deck. It was done by means of the shaft passing through the pressure hull, which was fitted with the handle. The shaft was driving the air control valve. I don't think that Germans would install the control switches at the upper deck.

For now, I do not have access to my photos, but after weekend I will upload photos of the device, which is (in my opinion) the pneumatic motor with some pneumatic armatures.

Tore, what is the source of the part of your drawing (the white background, with green markings)?

The piece of equipment you have marked with the red arrow (and green color) is the gyro-angle receiver for torpedo tubes. The driving motor (pneumatic in my opinion) is the next to the right (also marked with green color).

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2588 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 06:12 »
Hi Don,

U-278 does not have a KDB showing either...  And I checked some of my other U-Boat photos and some do show the KDB and others don't.  Was it possible to lower it because it was exposed to depth charge damage...?

Not all U-Boats were fitted with the KDB. KDB was more sensitive and accurate than GHG, but it was extremaly susceptible to damage from depth charges and heavy sea conditions. So it was abandoned on the late war U-Boats.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2589 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 08:04 »
Maciek.
My arrow to the torpedo gyroangle receiver is wrong and done in a hurry. I am not at all sure about the electric capstan motor Maciek, as I cannot remember. As I mentioned above most of the drawings available shows the pneumatic motor,  in fact all my German VIIC/41 drawings, even those after the war. When I checked with U-historia my bad spanish fooled me as I read el motor as electric motor ;D . I agree with Maciek if you move the pneumatic motor up to the top eliminating the rod drive there will be  no saving of weight with an el-motor ;) .The conclusion, the pneumatic drive is still a fact on the late VIICs as well and all of a sudden I can hear the sound of the pneumatic motor running when we were mooring, sorry about the confusion ;D .
Tore
« Last Edit: 05 Apr , 2015, 08:26 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2590 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 11:19 »
Tore,

one more thing - I suppose, that mechanical characteristic of the DC electric motor is quite inappropriate for mooring work and pulling the anchor. I mean, that during these works, the motor can be installed for a long while, which could easily cause its damage.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2591 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 14:10 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I apologize for creating a mess....  In my Skizzenbuch the capstan and anchor windless is listed as a pneumatic-motor.  My question was valid about what part of the capstan was removed, but not the electric motor error on my part.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2592 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 22:34 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I corrected the following in Skizzenbuch:
Page 335 - in the drawing top line I corrected a type-o (Fuel was Fueo).
Page 425 - added some info on KDB.
Page 435 - Added info on the capstan.


I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox.  I sure hope there are not a whole lot more of my errors.  However, I'm not the best of typist (I use the old hunt and peck system!)...  I know there are people who can type without ever looking at the keyboard, but I'm not one of then.   


When I was working at NCR many years ago, one of my younger co-workers swapped some to the key tops on my computers keyboard.  The next morning, I could not get logged into my system (our screen stayed blank until validated).  Chuck came over and typed my name without looking at the keyboard and my system opened up to the support screen.  Right away I smelled a RAT, and figured out what he did to me...  Come to think about it - that was funny, but not that morning to me!  That afternoon, Chuck needed help with the IBM BIOS vector tables.  I helped him because I don't hold grudges; besides it was to help an NCR field engineer on a customer site and that was our job...


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 05 Apr , 2015, 22:43 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2593 on: 05 Apr , 2015, 23:37 »
Don.
Your update seems OK to me. Don`t bader about creating confusion I am still laughing about my spanish for El motor. As to the finger dancing on the key board, when you are at my age, the nature make sure to use a two fingers dance.
Tore

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2594 on: 07 Apr , 2015, 00:35 »
U 278.
The photo of U- 278 returning from patrol to Narvik, Norway on May 9th 1945 remind me of an incident which happened on the surrender of the Uboats in this area. 12 uboats had already returned to the area following 3 more, including U 278, on May 9th. The Western Allied High Command did not like so many advanced highly operational uboats concentrated that high up north, close to the Soviet occupied county of Finmark Norway, they agreed with the Germans to move all the Uboats still with the German COs and crew, flying a black flag,further south to Trondheim. The formidable fleet of 15 uboats, U-294,- 295, -312, 313,- 363,-427, -481, -668,-716,- 968,- 997, -1165, -278, -and -992 sailed on May 16th 1945  southwards bound. The Western Allied High command forgot however to advice the Norwegian Naval High command and one of our destroyers KNM Stord (which participated in the sinking of the German battleship Scharnhorst) was on another mission on her way north meeting accidentally this formidable submarine fleet. This created a dangerous tense situation before the matter was solved by a signal from KNM Stord to the high command. The 15 Uboats were redirected to Loch Eriboll, Scotland as a beginning of the later Operation Pledge e.g. transfer of 97 uboats from Norway to Scotland, ultimately ending later in operation Deadlight.
Tore
« Last Edit: 07 Apr , 2015, 00:39 by tore »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2595 on: 07 Apr , 2015, 01:45 »
Hi Gentlemen,

Page 425 - added some info on KDB.

Some time ago, I have done a query (related with the KDB) on the reports published on the uboatarchive.net site. The results are here: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,18432.msg204976.html#msg204976

Generally, it seems that KDB was abandoned since mid-1943.

--
Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2596 on: 07 Apr , 2015, 21:47 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


I added 2 pages (434-435) to Skizzenbuch to cover RADAR briefly...  I uploaded the latest version of Skizzenbuch to dropbox for your approval.


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2597 on: 08 Apr , 2015, 00:23 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I only count 14....


The formidable fleet of 15 U-Boats, U-294, -295, -312, -313, -363, -427, -481, -668, -716, -968, -997, -1165, -278, and -992 sailed on May 16th 1945 southwards bound.

Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2598 on: 08 Apr , 2015, 00:55 »
Don.
Right you are, I forgot the "trigger" for my memory U- 278. As she joined the convoy as well makes the total 15. ;D
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2599 on: 08 Apr , 2015, 10:07 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


But U-278 is in the list....


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD