AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE IX => Topic started by: GlennCauley on 03 Oct , 2022, 13:10
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Hi all,
It's been a very long time since I posted here, and my current project is Uboat-related.
I am building a 1/16 version of a Focke-Achgelis Fa330 Bachstelze, which was carried by a few IXD or IXD2 boats.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mncMnFbuBSzKfTQN7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/mncMnFbuBSzKfTQN7)
With me being me, I want to make a nice base, ideally a section of deck with a launch platform.
I found a period video of Fa330 assembly and launch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NtI-KS45xk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NtI-KS45xk)
It is difficult to piece together what goes where on the deck.
Then I found a 3D rendering that is supposedly an IXD2 deck, with what looks like a launch platform -- see attached pic.
I also found boxart of a 1:400 uboat with Fa330 showing a much simpler tower configuration -- see other pic.
Does anyone have actual pictures or references of what an IXD/IXD2 tower with Fa330 launch platform looks like?
I do not know if the 3D rendered image is based in reality, or if the model kit boxart is more realistic.
Any help is appreciated!
Glenn Cauley
Canada
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Hi Glenn, welcome back!
There's a very nice video which is available on youtube showing the FA330 being assembled and launched from a U-boat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NtI-KS45xk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NtI-KS45xk).
If the link doesnt work just look for: " Focke-Achgelis Fa 330 Bachstelze deployed from a U-boat (c1942) " on youtube. I sense you're already familiar with this video.
Analyzing the footage at 0.56, 1:29 and 2:05 mins, it looks like the platform was secured to the after watertight containers on the wintergarden deck, they were part of 3 dedicated (2 vertical and 1 fore horizontal) containers for the Fa330 on the after top wintergarden deck. The AA MGs are dismounted. The Fa-330 is secured to the platform with two lateral lines plus a wiring securing the flying gyro to the U-boat and possibly providing telephone or radio connection. The platform itself looks to be made of a rectangular metal frame encasing fenestrated planking. It looks different from the other platforms mounted onto Turm 0's appearing in the few pictures available on the net.
In these pics the platform looks very basic with 4 tubular pillars extending from the after portion of the top wintergarden railing. Will hunt for pictures showing the actual platform (was it wooden planked or planked and covered with metal netting just like the platform showed in the top picture in the following page https://panssarivaunut.blogspot.com/2018/02/focke-achgelis-fa-330-wagtail.html (https://panssarivaunut.blogspot.com/2018/02/focke-achgelis-fa-330-wagtail.html), i don't know). I'll search for more pics.
I hypotize there were different styles of the gyro platform. The pics probably show the experimental platforms, they are mounted on a training U-boat, likely in a fixed position. The platform in the video looks like it could be removed and assembled in case the gyro help was needed. It'd make sense.
It's a great project, am sure you'll execute it with your inimitable, excellent style. Am looking forward to see the WIP pics, let us know.
Cheers,
SG
addendum: Glenn, i have just noticed that you had already seen the video. I had read your post too hurriedly and missed that. Apologies
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Thanks so much, SG ;D
Every bit helps, especially clear pics of the platform.
Some other questions about dimensions:
1. What is the approximate diameter of the wintergarten circular top railing?
2. What might be the diameter of the top rail?
3. What might be the diameter of the vertical stanchion rails?
Why am I asking?
I want to replicate a section of the wintergarten railing and attach a launch platform to it.
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Hi Glenn,
knowing that U852 was equipped with the gyro helped me to find pictures of that boat and i was kinda lucky: the pics show what the top aft end of the boat upper wintergarden looked like. The gyro pad and the 3 watertight containers for the Fa330 can be identified. Does the second (boat commissioning) pic show (?) a folded gyro platform at the after edge of the upper wintergarden? Am not sure it can be it, but looks very similar to the platform seen in the video at 0:55 and 1:27.
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U852wreck.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U852wreck.jpg)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/t/U852.jpg)
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U852.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U852.jpg)
Looking among the pics of batch U 847-U 852 I found a closeup of U848 under attack clearly showing the platform:
(https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/t/U848underattack.jpg)
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U848underattack.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U848underattack.jpg)
We can therefore assume that the boats from that batch were equipped with the Fa330. The gyro platform (-addendum: by gyro platform i mean the launch pad-) dimensions and rectangular shape match with the pad seen in the video and looks smaller than the other launch pads seen in the pictures showing the Turm 0 type IXs. The pictured operative boats sport the mounted AA guns coexisting with the gyro platform, differently from the video. It's probably like that the guns were dismounted when the Fa330 was in use, to make room on the crowded wintergarden. You would probably want to consider this aspect in your build. My advice is to try and hunt for pictures of boats belonging to the batch U847-U852. Am not sure whether batch 853-858 was equipped with the gyro/sported the platform or not. The pics of those boats i have don't show that part of the tower. I wasnt lucky with the U 177-U 182 series either, but i'll keep up my pic hunt. Will go through all the issues of Uboot im focus i have, am afraid it will take time.
I dont know if you can download the pics i posted from cubeupload, in case you can't I'd send them via email. I am sending you a private message for some measures of the Italeri Maiale.
Cheers,
SG
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In looking at the pics (thank you), I think we are look at two VERY different boats which had Fa330. The boat in your reply above seems to have a much larger upper platform with integrated launch pad on risers.
The video of the Fa330 assembly & launching seems to show a boat with a much smaller upper platform with a 'tacked on' launch pad.
(Per pic below)
It's the tower below that I am wondering about the dimensions of the tower railings... approximate diameter, etc.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oB6muQBHqTU/WnwUGh3NZsI/AAAAAAAAfMA/MxvdAsSqse0UYk70CqI3IS5KbVL-hHgAwCEwYBhgL/s1600/fa1.jpg)
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Yes, the Turm 0 configuration. I had thought you were interested the late version with the watertight containers, which is the one filmed in that video.
The video of the Fa330 assembly & launching seems to show a boat with a much smaller upper platform with a 'tacked on' launch pad.
The boat in the video sports a double-decker Turm (possibily turm II or IV configuration, i believe the latter), towards the end of the video (2:05) the railing of the lower wintergarden is visible and both the AA MG mounts are also visible (0:20) making it a double decker with standard upper AA gun platform (by AA gun platform I mean the round area of the after tower deck) dimensions i suppose. By gyro platform in my previous post i meant the launch pad for the Fa330. This has probably caused some confusion.
It's the tower below that I am wondering about the dimensions of the tower railings... approximate diameter, etc.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oB6muQBHqTU/WnwUGh3NZsI/AAAAAAAAfMA/MxvdAsSqse0UYk70CqI3IS5KbVL-hHgAwCEwYBhgL/s1600/fa1.jpg)
The picture above shows a single AA-gun platform turm 0 configurated tower, (belonging to U532, similar to those of U 177 and U 181 before their conversion to turm IV). The diameters of the tower railings should be the standard diameters of a type IX turm 0. I'll look for them, plus I'll concentrate my photographic research on the gyro-equipped turm 0 boats :)
Cheers,
SG
PS/addendum: also check Dougie's "U-boat Type IX modifications & features" pages 88 and 115
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Hi Glenn and SG,
Welcome back, Glenn, good you are working on a U-boat related model. Firstly some background. The Fa330 was tested on the IXC U 523 in the autumn of 1942. U 523 had a yellow training band at that time. These images show U 523 at that time -
(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/76eU523fa3302.jpg)(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U523.jpg)
U 523 had the Turm 0 tower at that time. U 523 was a Type IXC but due to size the kite was only used operationally on IXDs. SG's image of U 852 shows U 852 (IXD) during commissioning with a Turm II. The U 848 image shows this IXD boat with a Turm IV. I don't think any IXDs had the Fa330 with Turm 0. But you can go with U 523 as the photo shows how the platform was attached to the top of the railings.
In regard to railings, have a look at these two images of U 68 and U 128 respectively -
(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U68.jpg)(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U128.jpg)
To answer questions 2 and 3, you may recall that the top horizontal bar on VIIs was thicker. On IXs it looks like the top horizontal bar was the same diameter as the middle horizontal and the verticals. In 1/16th scale these might be somthing like 3mm in diameter.
There was an additional horizontal bar near the bottom. The blue arrows on U 68 show either side of this additional bar. It looks like this bar was thinner than the rest but you can judge for yourself.
There was also another exception. One vertical railing on each side (pointed to in red) was much thicker at the bottom than the top. It starts off at the top the same diameter as the rest.
Note there was a one-piece wooden seat on either side, with the vertical railing bars going through the seat.
The hard part is working out what U 523 had inside the wintergarten platform. The boat was working in a test capacity so there was not a requirement for the 20mm anti-aircraft gun. They would need space to assemble the kite. It looks like the 20mm including the 20mm mount was removed from U 523. It looks like one crewman is standing on something that is located where the 20mm would normally be. It is likely to be equipment associated with the Fa330 but it is hard to tell what it is. The Fa330 may well have been stored inside U 523 without there being a waterproof container in this location.
Is your question 1 asking the diameter of the wintergarten railings (in other words the width from one side to another)? This would be about 220mm in 16th scale. Additionally the width of the wintergarten floor would be around 166mm in 16th scale.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Excellent analysis Dougie! I was waiting for your input in this research topic as you've been researching much on type IX's and your post could really make the difference, as it did.
U 523 doesn't seem to have dedicated watertight containers for the Fa330 on her tower deck. The presence of a surface vessel in the picture, where a camera actually took the shots and possibly filmed the launch, makes me think of a support vessel providing the components or the already assembled Fa330 to be tested on the sub. Mine are only speculations though. No watertight containers can be seen in the pictures, thats for sure.
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Thank you both very much!
The measurements that I took off the 1/72 U67/U153 kit (IXC early, Turm 0) gave me measurements that turned out to match nearly perfectly what Dougie provided. :D
I think that I will be making a base with the top part of railing of U523 without the watertight containers... i like the "welded on" launch pad.
@Dougie: By chance could you send me a link (or the photo) of the right-side view of U523 (the very first one you posted). A full side view like that will help me design the launch pad much better.
Thanks again, you two. :D <3
GlennC
Hi Glenn and SG,
Welcome back, Glenn, good you are working on a U-boat related model. Firstly some background. The Fa330 was tested on the IXC U 523 in the autumn of 1942. U 523 had a yellow training band at that time. These images show U 523 at that time -
(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/76eU523fa3302.jpg)(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U523.jpg)
U 523 had the Turm 0 tower at that time. U 523 was a Type IXC but due to size the kite was only used operationally on IXDs. SG's image of U 852 shows U 852 (IXD) during commissioning with a Turm II. The U 848 image shows this IXD boat with a Turm IV. I don't think any IXDs had the Fa330 with Turm 0. But you can go with U 523 as the photo shows how the platform was attached to the top of the railings.
In regard to railings, have a look at these two images of U 68 and U 128 respectively -
(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U68.jpg)(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U128.jpg)
To answer questions 2 and 3, you may recall that the top horizontal bar on VIIs was thicker. On IXs it looks like the top horizontal bar was the same diameter as the middle horizontal and the verticals. In 1/16th scale these might be somthing like 3mm in diameter.
There was an additional horizontal bar near the bottom. The blue arrows on U 68 show either side of this additional bar. It looks like this bar was thinner than the rest but you can judge for yourself.
There was also another exception. One vertical railing on each side (pointed to in red) was much thicker at the bottom than the top. It starts off at the top the same diameter as the rest.
Note there was a one-piece wooden seat on either side, with the vertical railing bars going through the seat.
The hard part is working out what U 523 had inside the wintergarten platform. The boat was working in a test capacity so there was not a requirement for the 20mm anti-aircraft gun. They would need space to assemble the kite. It looks like the 20mm including the 20mm mount was removed from U 523. It looks like one crewman is standing on something that is located where the 20mm would normally be. It is likely to be equipment associated with the Fa330 but it is hard to tell what it is. The Fa330 may well have been stored inside U 523 without there being a waterproof container in this location.
Is your question 1 asking the diameter of the wintergarten railings (in other words the width from one side to another)? This would be about 220mm in 16th scale. Additionally the width of the wintergarten floor would be around 166mm in 16th scale.
Cheers,
Dougie
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One thing that I did notice from the first 2 photos that Dougie posted above... that being the height of the launch pad on the back of the tower.
Pic 1 (side): The launch pad is very low, seemingly resting on the top railing.
Pic 2 (rear side): The launch pad is much higher, seemingly level with the top of the tower upper bulwark (?).
My guess is this:
During assembly or cruising, the launch pad was low so the crew could place the Fa330 on it before flight; it was low enough to be partially protected from the wind by the higher forward bulwark. Then when they wanted to launch the Fa330, they would raise the platform up so the Fa330 was fully in the wind (not protected by the bulwark) which helped it launch.
Does that seem reasonable?
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Hi Glenn,
Yes, I see what you mean. The launch pad does look lower in photo 1. They were doing trials so it could be that the photos were taken at different times and they changed the height. A different height may well have allowed different wind speeds due to the tower bulwark which you correctly mentioned. It may be that they raised it to get more wind as the boat was sailing on the surface in order for the Fa 330 to rise.
I will email you some photos.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Decided to go with U523 (Type IXC) and the temporary launch platform used in Fa330 trials.
In 1/16 scale it's gonna be a biggun!
I will craft 1.5" height of tower railing - enough to show the middle rail - then will build the launch platform onto that.
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(https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158741379822127&set=a.10158629647007127)Section of wintergarten railing complete (so far).
Made from 1/8" and 3/32" brass and copper tubing, soldered together for strength.
Fa330 posed where the launch pad will be located.
(https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158741521202127&set=a.10158629647007127)
(https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10158741521512127&set=a.10158629647007127)
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Speechless :o . Bravissimo Glenn, keep it up!
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Slat seat made from 1/16" basswood.
Just need to fill in the slot and add underside clamps (later on).
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Launchpad nearly complete
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Hi Glenn,
Nice one, you have been busy and the project is looking first class.
Well done,
Dougie
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Spectacular! 8)
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I cannot believe it actually worked!
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Primed and painted... sealing, weathering, and fine details to come.
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Fading & weathering the wooden slat seats.
(In giant 1:16 scale, the canvas is much bigger... so more effort is required to make things look good.)
Began with brown wood stain, then darkened edges with smoke & black, then used a spray template to add salt staining.
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The completed launch pad, weathered, and with wood strips installed.
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Awesome!
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The completed Fa330 launchpad on Type IXC wintergarten railing, scratchbuilt in giant 1:16 scale.
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Hi Glenn,
Wonderful work, that did not take you long at all. What is your next project?
Cheers,
Dougie
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Finished the final (?) component of this build; fabricating the seatbelt harness.
The closest offering was an Airscale 1:24 set (not 1:16) but they have detailed installation diagrams. (Only 1 error.)
Since no-one offers a 1:16 set, I asked a friend to 3D design and print the buckle parts. I used regular masking tape (doubled up) for the belts.
The adjusters and lap belt latching system actually work! I am very happy with the end result.
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Hi Glenn,
Those additions really improve your model, especially the seatbelt and the rudder bar straps. Looking like the real thing. Maybe you can display at an IPMS Ottawa show?
Cheers,
Dougie
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Wow! can I fly it? ;D Super realistic. Such a magnificent work Glenn, congrats!
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Wow! can I fly it? ;D
Be my guest! I certainly am not inclined to climb aboard that beastie, though. :D
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Work is progressing well on the pilot figure.
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The pilot has been painted, all he needs now is a head!
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Wow!